Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet Off Coast

[phl]

PS. Israeli fighter jets often fly over Syria and do not get shot down

because the syrians didnt have the missiles to get them down... until very recently...?

or do you suggest, the syrians didnt shoot down israeli fighters "out of courtesy"?

i do not suggest anything, just stating the facts, you are the one doing all the speculations

[geriatrickid]

Looks like the Turks are taking out their anger on the PKK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-18570036

At least that won't escalate things and the Sarajevo moment (so enthusiastically sought by some) is avoided.

Sadly shoot downs of recon flights are nothing new (any confirmed news re the crew?), and now with drones more deployed involve fewer casualties.

Turkey is using the drones it purchased from Israel, before Erdogan decided to cut off his military tird. It has already received its 5 drones in May that it had sent to Israel for maintenance. Turkey has also requested the USA for armed drones.

Another interesting article here;

http://www.presstv.i...nmanned-drones/

I trust that the use of an anti Israeli, Iran news source will not give rise to ther accusation that this is a fake story from zionist international conspiracy groups promoting a calming of the relationship between Syria and Turkey.

maybe one good thing will come out of this: A return to normal relations between Israel and Turkey. If so, a big thank you to Mr. Assad.

Edited June 25, 2012 by geriatrickid

[simon43]

i think they have to hide and wait until they get rescued or so..

I understand that they were shot down over the sea, with very few rocks to hide behind...

[Derifo]

An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all as the treaty says.

That's the very reason why NATO sent Turkey on that mission. Shame on them.

They should fix the problems in Afghanistan first before sponsoring conflicts in other countries.

[Yunla]

*edited out*

he just had to kill most of the population, in order to have his aryan race dream come true...

but he was a true patriot, he wished for all "only the best"...

even if assad is a "patriot" in some way, then its an attribute perhaps on rank 93,029,090.98...

within the top ten it wont show up, more likely dictator, despot, mass murderer...

I'm surprised by how my original very short post was kicked around. I said he had 20-30% popularity according to the link I provided later. What I was far more surprised is that adults on a news forum find the use of the word patriot so contentious. Patriotism ; devotion to ones country. To act as a patriot ; to commit acts that are motivated by the devotion for your country. It is always an individual perspective, and is different to outside viewer's opinions and historical analysis of good leadership in a given era.

A person can commit atrocities and still do so in patriotic fervor. Is Assad a massmurderer - yes. Is Assad a dictator - yes. Is he a patriot who loves Syria and believes his actions are those of a proud nationalist patriot - yes (in my opinion based on his interviews of the last decade). .You can be all those things and he is. My original point, which was never responded to in the ensuing barrage of pedantry, was that Assad would probably not fold as easily as the coalition's earlier invasions, due to him genuinely believing in his cause, something that the insane Gaddafi and the essentially corrupt Hussein didn't.

It has already been discussed re: Iraq that many tribal, feudal and strategically-volatile nations are ruled by hardline leaders out of necessity, to keep order. Being a patriot and a hardliner are not mutually exclusive and often apply to the same leader.

[Ulysses G.]

Is Assad a massmurderer - yes. Is Assad a dictator - yes. Is he a patriot who loves Syria and believes his actions are those of a proud nationalist patriot - yes

Slaughtering thousands of his own people in order to retain power does not make him a patriot in my book.

[kerryk]

An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all as the treaty says.

That's the very reason why NATO sent Turkey on that mission. Shame on them.

They should fix the problems in Afghanistan first before sponsoring conflicts in other countries.

Turkey says it was a training mission to test radar. How do you know it was NATO who sent Turkey on that mission and what exactly was the mission since you know?

[kerryk]

Is Assad a massmurderer - yes. Is Assad a dictator - yes. Is he a patriot who loves Syria and believes his actions are those of a proud nationalist patriot - yes

Slaughtering thousands of his own people in order to retain power does not make him a patriot in my book.

I think perhaps patriotism is being confused with Nationalism. The words although close do not mean the same thing.

[chuckd]

An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all as the treaty says.

That's the very reason why NATO sent Turkey on that mission. Shame on them.

They should fix the problems in Afghanistan first before sponsoring conflicts in other countries.

Please provide us more insight into the inner workings of NATO. You obviously have a very highly placed source.

[Yunla]

Is Assad a massmurderer - yes. Is Assad a dictator - yes. Is he a patriot who loves Syria and believes his actions are those of a proud nationalist patriot - yes

Slaughtering thousands of his own people in order to retain power does not make him a patriot in my book.

You are missing the point. He considers his actions patriotic. That makes his actions motivated by patriotism. In his eyes and his large number of followers eyes he is protecting Syria against enemies foreign and domestic, as a patriot. The opinions of me and you and anybody else are irrelevent to him being a patriot or not. If he loves Syria and believes his actions are acts of devotion to Syrias longterm best interests then he is a patriot and it doesn't matter what foreigners on the internet think aboout that. I already said he is a dictator and a massmurderer, but that he is genuinely convinced that his acts are for Syria. I've sat through hundreds of hours of speeches by this man and he really believes it imo. Anyway, being a patriot and killing your people are two seperate things.

[geriatrickid]

Is Assad a massmurderer - yes. Is Assad a dictator - yes. Is he a patriot who loves Syria and believes his actions are those of a proud nationalist patriot - yes

Slaughtering thousands of his own people in order to retain power does not make him a patriot in my book.

Keeps up the family tradition though. His dad did the same.

[geriatrickid]

You are missing the point. He considers his actions patriotic. That makes his actions motivated by patriotism. In his eyes and his large number of followers eyes he is protecting Syria against enemies foreign and domestic, as a patriot. The opinions of me and you and anybody else are irrelevent to him being a patriot or not. If he loves Syria and believes his actions are acts of devotion to Syrias longterm best interests then he is a patriot and it doesn't matter what foreigners on the internet think aboout that. I already said he is a dictator and a massmurderer, but that he is genuinely convinced that his acts are for Syria. I've sat through hundreds of hours of speeches by this man and he really believes it imo. Anyway, being a patriot and killing your people are two seperate things.

And there are many men that walk on Patong beach in their thongs trying to chat up the girls. They actually believe that their little banana hammocks suspended under their massive guts enhance the look. Their thinking they are hansum ladies men, does not make them hotties.

If you have sat through hundreds of hours of his speeches, that speaks volumes about you. 5 nminutes was sufficient time to sit in a boring prof's organic chem course. While I was obliged to do so, I still found a way out of there along with 295 other students. The 5 that remained deserved to be sitting there listening to that dingbat.

[dingdang]

just assuming, assad was right and he is the best for syria, and the others are not...

then even this wouldnt justify to kill thousands of people for it...

if such a large portion of the population is against a government, and it goes so far, that so many killings (over such a long time) are "needed", then the government has to step down...

they might ask for international intervention, when they really find even MORE danger is imminent due to the change, but they just cant hold their position by all means...

[Steely Dan]

Of course there is a moral argument for stopping Assad, which will no doubt be presented to western populations by the media and politicians, perhaps some may even believe it. However, for the moral argument to hold water total failure to analyze what comes after Assad is not something we should do. I doubt many here will have read about what Salafists are getting up to in Tunisia or Morocco, let alone Libya - Because it does not gel with the fairytale we are being sold.

Finally the Russian position is obviously one of self interest and imho they disapprove of the western backing for the Muslim brotherhood as they fear this Islamist contagion spreading to the Caucuses.

[Scott]

I fail to see how what we (Westerners) think, want, or wish for makes one iota of difference in what happens in Syria or if Assad stays or goes.

[Steely Dan]

I fail to see how what we (Westerners) think, want, or wish for makes one iota of difference in what happens in Syria or if Assad stays or goes.

Surely that depends on what arms are allowed to go to the rebels, similar to what happened in Libya coming to think of it. I would concede that failure to arm the rebels would likely lead to Assad hanging onto power, which is what his father did with a body count estimated at 25,000.

[Scott]

And for every gun supplied to the rebels, the Russians will supply one for the gov't. And if no Western gov't supplies them, will they be unable to get guns? Will all gov'ts follow the same rule on supplying arms?

[Yunla]

If you have sat through hundreds of hours of his speeches, that speaks volumes about you.

I have a very high pain threshold.

[koheesti]

You are missing the point. He considers his actions patriotic. That makes his actions motivated by patriotism. In his eyes and his large number of followers eyes he is protecting Syria against enemies foreign and domestic, as a patriot.

I think his actions are to protect his own hold on power, country & people be damned.

Edited June 26, 2012 by koheesti

[Yunla]

You are missing the point. He considers his actions patriotic. That makes his actions motivated by patriotism. In his eyes and his large number of followers eyes he is protecting Syria against enemies foreign and domestic, as a patriot.

I think his actions are to protect his own hold on power, country & people be damned.

He believes his remaining in power is for Syria's best interests, he considers his remaining in charge as patriotic. I don't personally have an opinion if he is right or not. We removed Saddam from power, another bloodthirsty dictator, and now in Iraq hairdressers are executed for giving men a shave, and women are executed for negligible theocratic reasons. I guess our opinion on removing Saddam for the good of Iraq was flawed, or for less humanitarian reasons such as removing the sovereign stable nature of Iraq. Either way Assad is obviously the next on the list for our special democratisation services, and imo he is not going to go quietly. As usual and as always it will be the poor normal civilians who will suffer during any military action, and in the ensuing power vacuum.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Yunla

[Steely Dan]

And for every gun supplied to the rebels, the Russians will supply one for the gov't. And if no Western gov't supplies them, will they be unable to get guns? Will all gov'ts follow the same rule on supplying arms?

Well the Russian involvement is the sticking point for would be regime changers, they (Russia) did not intervene with Iraq or Libya, where they kept out of it under sufferance. It is only said Russian intervention which means Assad is still hanging on so I think the West does have a say as to what happens in Syria, but this is obviously countered to some degree by Russia.

[Ulysses G.]

He believes his remaining in power is for Syria's best interests,

Then he is just another psychopath. Charles Manson thought that Helter Skelter was in the best interests of the US too, but no one thinks that he is a "patriot".

Edited June 26, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

What was I saying about the misleading media narrative we are fed?

The BBC’s coverage of the Arab Spring has been heavily criticised – by the corporation’s bosses.

Head of news Helen Boaden admitted that her journalists got carried away with events and produced ‘over-excited’ reports.

She told a BBC Trust report that in Libya, where reporters were ‘embedded’ with rebels, they may have failed to explore both sides of the story properly.

Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen was among those criticised in the study into coverage of the uprisings, which found that ‘excitement’ did sometimes ‘infect’ the reporting, which some viewers described as ‘too emotive’ and ‘veering into opinion’.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1ysy5CeBz

The same conclusions imho equally apply to much of the MSM.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Steely Dan

[kerryk]

He believes his remaining in power is for Syria's best interests,

Then he is just another psychopath. Charles Manson thought that Helter Skelter was in the best interests of the US too, but no one thinks that he is a "patriot".

I don't know I for one would like the opinion of someone who speaks Arabic. They speak Arabic in Syria don't they? I wonder who here can understand what Assad is saying in his native language?

[geriatrickid]

He believes his remaining in power is for Syria's best interests,

Then he is just another psychopath. Charles Manson thought that Helter Skelter was in the best interests of the US too, but no one thinks that he is a "patriot".

I don't know I for one would like the opinion of someone who speaks Arabic. They speak Arabic in Syria don't they? I wonder who here can understand what Assad is saying in his native language?

I'd be willing to venture, that the tone of rhetoric used isn't that much different than what we hear on the redshirt and PAD stages in Thailand, or coming from the "militias" in the USA, or from some political groups in the EU. My point being that rhetoric encouraging violence and the targeting of other political groups goes hand in hand with civil unrest.

[geriatrickid]

If you have sat through hundreds of hours of his speeches, that speaks volumes about you.

I have a very high pain threshold.

Was this for academic purposes, work, or a personal interest?

[Steely Dan]

Well it's started according to unconfirmed reports. MSM anyone?

http://www.debka.com/article/22133/British-forces-in-Syria-Assad-presidential-compound-said-under-attack

Unconfirmed first reports from British, French and Turkish sources say British special operations forces crossed from Turkey into northern Syria Tuesday, May 26, and advanced up to 10 kilometers inside the country. The same sources report heavy fighting around the Presidential Guards compound on the outskirts of Damascus.

debkafile’s military sources note that this compound exists to defend Bashar Assad’s presidential palace on Mount Qaisoun overlooking Damascus.

[midas]

Well it's started according to unconfirmed reports. MSM anyone?

http://www.debka.com...id-under-attack

Unconfirmed first reports from British, French and Turkish sources say British special operations forces crossed from Turkey into northern Syria Tuesday, May 26, and advanced up to 10 kilometers inside the country. The same sources report heavy fighting around the Presidential Guards compound on the outskirts of Damascus.

debkafile’s military sources note that this compound exists to defend Bashar Assad’s presidential palace on Mount Qaisoun overlooking Damascus.

If they have this will be political suicide for the Cameron government ( on top everything else ).

The British public are clearly in no mood for any more wars - just read the comments

after this article

http://www.dailymail...shot-Syria.html

Edited June 26, 2012 by midas

[dingdang]

the world cant sit by and watch a mass murderer and dictator playing his games...

there were lessons learned after hitler germany, one of them the establishment of the UN...

to prevent things as going on in syria right now...

Edited June 26, 2012 by dingdang

[kerryk]

Al Jazeera is saying 280 Syrian troops mass defection and are attacking shooting down one helicopter in heavy fighting.