Any Alternative To Frozen Salmon?

[craigt3365]

A few bickering posts have been removed from view. Please stick to the topic.

[lujanit]

Since this topic has gone slightly OT I am going to continue it OT. I have spent many years in the seafood production and processing industries so maybe I learnt a thing or two in that time. Years ago I even experimented with the export of live salmon from Oz to Asia. Huge and costly failure! Maybe I can clear up some mis-conceptions about fresh chilled versus frozen. The truth is that it all depends on how the product is handled all the way down the cold chain from harvest to consumption. Any hiccups, regardless of method or stage and the product is 'firetrucked' (my version of less than optimum, read it how you wish).

Frozen fish is often superior to fresh chilled if it is handled correctly from prior to harvest, through slaughter and freezing. You are not the only one who experiences stress. Fish and I know from many trials that salmon in particular are very prone to stress during the harvest phase. If your interested read up on cortico-steriod release during stress. Regardless of whether the fish is now to be fresh chilled or frozen degradation by autolytic enzymes and bacteria has commenced. To stop or severely retard this process is the aim of lowering the temperature as quickly as possible.

Many salmon farms place the fish post harvest into ice filled seawater bins prior to any further processing precisely to stop degradation. Whole fish may now be fresh chilled in ice and shipped or frozen. If frozen the rate of freezing is critical. As mentioned in an earlier post the rate of freezing dictates the development and size of ice crystals. The smaller the better as it affects the quality of the product on thawing.

While there is always going to be dis-agreement of fresh versus frozen why do you think that so many processors use freezing? Shelf life; sure. But why else? Because they cannot guarantee the quality after it is out of their control. The cold chain.

The last link in this scenario is thawing. This is, unfortunately true of many restaurants. They receive product frozen and only thaw it when ordered. This is very true of buffets. I have had Alaskan crab a couple of times here at a buffet and it was tasteless because it was thawed in fresh water thereby leeching out all the flavour.

So to sum it all up. Fresh chilled and frozen are comparable provided all things are equal in the cold chain. Time is a factor obviously, especially for fresh chilled.

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 11/30/2012 at 2:35 AM, lujanit said:

Since this topic has gone slightly OT I am going to continue it OT. I have spent many years in the seafood production and processing industries so maybe I learnt a thing or two in that time. Years ago I even experimented with the export of live salmon from Oz to Asia. Huge and costly failure! Maybe I can clear up some mis-conceptions about fresh chilled versus frozen. The truth is that it all depends on how the product is handled all the way down the cold chain from harvest to consumption. Any hiccups, regardless of method or stage and the product is 'firetrucked' (my version of less than optimum, read it how you wish).

Frozen fish is often superior to fresh chilled if it is handled correctly from prior to harvest, through slaughter and freezing. You are not the only one who experiences stress. Fish and I know from many trials that salmon in particular are very prone to stress during the harvest phase. If your interested read up on cortico-steriod release during stress. Regardless of whether the fish is now to be fresh chilled or frozen degradation by autolytic enzymes and bacteria has commenced. To stop or severely retard this process is the aim of lowering the temperature as quickly as possible.

Many salmon farms place the fish post harvest into ice filled seawater bins prior to any further processing precisely to stop degradation. Whole fish may now be fresh chilled in ice and shipped or frozen. If frozen the rate of freezing is critical. As mentioned in an earlier post the rate of freezing dictates the development and size of ice crystals. The smaller the better as it affects the quality of the product on thawing.

While there is always going to be dis-agreement of fresh versus frozen why do you think that so many processors use freezing? Shelf life; sure. But why else? Because they cannot guarantee the quality after it is out of their control. The cold chain.

The last link in this scenario is thawing. This is, unfortunately true of many restaurants. They receive product frozen and only thaw it when ordered. This is very true of buffets. I have had Alaskan crab a couple of times here at a buffet and it was tasteless because it was thawed in fresh water thereby leeching out all the flavour.

So to sum it all up. Fresh chilled and frozen are comparable provided all things are equal in the cold chain. Time is a factor obviously, especially for fresh chilled.

From a restaurants point of view fresh salmon is waiting and ready to cook for about 15 days if held just above the freezing temperature. If salmon is thawed from a frozen state how many days shelf life does it have?

[lujanit]

Dear chainmaikelly,

I have no problem with fresh salmon/fish provided it is handled in the correct manner. If fresh salmon is available and I acknowledge it can be transported to Thailand quickly what problem is there? I was merely highlighting the potential problems with fresh/chilled fish. We never even entered the discussion of why products are canned. I was going to acknowledge you my previous post but I was rambling on a bit. Please forgive me.

To answer your question about life after thawing it is a question about how it was frozen and how it was thawed. Do you have other thoughts or experience. Please share them with me as I am quite interested and wish to learn. PM if need be

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 11/30/2012 at 4:04 AM, lujanit said:

Dear chainmaikelly,

I have no problem with fresh salmon/fish provided it is handled in the correct manner. If fresh salmon is available and I acknowledge it can be transported to Thailand quickly what problem is there? I was merely highlighting the potential problems with fresh/chilled fish. We never even entered the discussion of why products are canned. I was going to acknowledge you my previous post but I was rambling on a bit. Please forgive me.

To answer your question about life after thawing it is a question about how it was frozen and how it was thawed. Do you have other thoughts or experience. Please share them with me as I am quite interested and wish to learn. PM if need be

Ideal in a restaurant is thawing under refrigeration 24 hours at least. My experience is shelf life of 3 or 4 days (others may have different experience). Second choice would be running cold water over the plastic package for immediate cooking. Never under water without the plastic or never at room temp. Shipping fresh salmon, 40 days at sea. Known as SAF-D and approved by the US Food and Drugs Administration, the technology designed by GFF keeps products fresh in a temperature and atmosphere-controlled environment is probably the future as it is easier to work with than frozen.

[Lopburi99]

We have discovered when we freeze some of the fillets after coming home from Makro, some taste loss is very noticeable for fillets thawed after being in the freezer more than a few days, for the reasons mentioned here. We've tried avoiding freezing by putting into the regular part of the refrigerator but in less than a week it starts to smell slightly so my wife pops it into the freezer. We haven't re-wrapped the filets in either case, we leave them in the little styrofoam flats which Makro seals several times with plastic wrap. Is buying a skrink-wrap/vacuum device a good idea (although somewhat costly)? Sounds like from comments here it would be. Whether trying to maintain fresh fillets or putting into the freezer part, proper sealing is obviously important. Your comments on proper sealing please and a conclusion on how best to thaw prior to cooking. Thanks for these greatly informative comments.

[rene123]

Although this topic may not have answered the OP's question, it has shed a good deal of light on the subject of freshness of food products (namely fish) and the taste. I can also assure everyone that taste of sea products is lost during the process unless VERY closely monitored. I have also tasted crab meat and prawns that had no flavour. I know the difference because I get them fresh from the ocean in Canada. And, the various salmon species (Chinook, coho, Chum, Pinks and sockeye) also taste different. And, some species keep much longer than others. Pink salmon are great if freshly caught, cooked and eaten, but they do not freeze or keep well refrigerated. Chum salmon are good if caught in the ocean and eaten quickly, but their pale flesh is not as appealing visually as the other species.

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 11/30/2012 at 5:44 AM, Lopburi99 said:

We have discovered when we freeze some of the fillets after coming home from Makro, some taste loss is very noticeable for fillets thawed after being in the freezer more than a few days, for the reasons mentioned here. We've tried avoiding freezing by putting into the regular part of the refrigerator but in less than a week it starts to smell slightly so my wife pops it into the freezer. We haven't re-wrapped the filets in either case, we leave them in the little styrofoam flats which Makro seals several times with plastic wrap. Is buying a skrink-wrap/vacuum device a good idea (although somewhat costly)? Sounds like from comments here it would be. Whether trying to maintain fresh fillets or putting into the freezer part, proper sealing is obviously important. Your comments on proper sealing please and a conclusion on how best to thaw prior to cooking. Thanks for these greatly informative comments.

Is the salmon you are buying at Makro frozen and then thawed for sale? If so you can't freeze it again.

[WilliaminBKK]

OP yes you can refreeze fish - as long as it is defrosted properly in the first place. The quality will take a hit for sure.

I think part of the problem may be keeping the fish in the styro packaging, it's probably not airtight and can cause freezer burn. Whenever I freeze anything I use zip lock bags and remove as much air as possible. I don't keep anything in the freezer for more than a month I know certain foods have a longer shelf life but with the abundance of fresh food I've found I don't freeze nearly as much as I did in the West.

In terms of equipment aside from zip lock bags, Verasu used to carry a machine for around 4500 THB but you had to buy the freezer bags from them and they were pricey. I think the name was seal a meal or something along those lines, I checked their site and it's not online but I'm heading there sometime next week and will report back if I see it in stock.

Here is a USA site for freezing guidelines.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/FactSheets/Focus_On_Freezing/index.asp

[SeaVisionBurma]

Several posts have been removed.

Please keep your posts constructive thanks

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 11/30/2012 at 5:33 PM, WilliaminBKK said:

OP yes you can refreeze fish - as long as it is defrosted properly in the first place. The quality will take a hit for sure.

I think part of the problem may be keeping the fish in the styro packaging, it's probably not airtight and can cause freezer burn. Whenever I freeze anything I use zip lock bags and remove as much air as possible. I don't keep anything in the freezer for more than a month I know certain foods have a longer shelf life but with the abundance of fresh food I've found I don't freeze nearly as much as I did in the West.

In terms of equipment aside from zip lock bags, Verasu used to carry a machine for around 4500 THB but you had to buy the freezer bags from them and they were pricey. I think the name was seal a meal or something along those lines, I checked their site and it's not online but I'm heading there sometime next week and will report back if I see it in stock.

Here is a USA site for freezing guidelines.

http://www.fsis.usda...ezing/index.asp

http://www.stilltast...tions/index/132

Question: I thawed some frozen fish fillets for dinner tonight, but now I’ve had a change in plans and don’t have time to cook them. Is it okay if I refreeze them?

Answer: It’s fine to refreeze the fish fillets — as long as you thawed them in the refrigerator and held them there for no more than two days.

But keep in mind that thawing and refreezing any food will take a toll on its quality. In the case of your fish fillets, you’ll likely see some changes in texture and taste after the second thaw. So you might want to opt for using the fillets in a chowder, stew or casserole, where the fish can be of less-than-perfect quality.

Refreezing is not an option, though, if the fish wasn’t thawed in the refrigerator to begin with.

[Travel2003]

chiangmaikelly

Several countries and regions have different PH regulations (UKPH, AUPH, EUPH, USPH, etc)

I referred to USPH in post # 40.

Out of curiosity, which Public Health (PH) regulations are you referring to?

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't say you wrong.

Im just curious to what regs you refer to.

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 12/1/2012 at 8:08 AM, Travel2003 said:

chiangmaikelly

Several countries and regions have different PH regulations (UKPH, AUPH, EUPH, USPH, etc)

I referred to USPH in post # 40.

Out of curiosity, which Public Health (PH) regulations are you referring to?

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't say you wrong.

Im just curious to what regs you refer to.

I didn't know I quoted any. Did I?

[Travel2003]

  On 12/1/2012 at 9:12 AM, chiangmaikelly said:

  On 12/1/2012 at 8:08 AM, Travel2003 said:

chiangmaikelly

Several countries and regions have different PH regulations (UKPH, AUPH, EUPH, USPH, etc)

I referred to USPH in post # 40.

Out of curiosity, which Public Health (PH) regulations are you referring to?

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't say you wrong.

Im just curious to what regs you refer to.

I didn't know I quoted any. Did I?

No you didn't, I asked which one you referred to.

Again , I don't say you are wrong.

Just curious what rules(regs) you refer to.

[David006]

just did a bit of googling....seems that 33% of Atlantic salmon is farmed by Norway...so who knows what turns up in the stores.

Seems a lot of wild salmon is actually escaped ocean pen farmed salmon too!

If you read about salmon aquaculture on Wikipedia could put you off salmon methinks...555

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 12/2/2012 at 8:28 PM, Travel2003 said:

  On 12/1/2012 at 9:12 AM, chiangmaikelly said:

  On 12/1/2012 at 8:08 AM, Travel2003 said:

chiangmaikelly

Several countries and regions have different PH regulations (UKPH, AUPH, EUPH, USPH, etc)

I referred to USPH in post # 40.

Out of curiosity, which Public Health (PH) regulations are you referring to?

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't say you wrong.

Im just curious to what regs you refer to.

I didn't know I quoted any. Did I?

No you didn't, I asked which one you referred to.

Again , I don't say you are wrong.

Just curious what rules(regs) you refer to.

Since I didn't write about any rules nor quote any rules or regs I am at a loss to understand what you are getting at.

Perhaps you have a conflict between the rules of two different countries you could post them and I would be happy to tell you which one is correct.

[SeaVisionBurma]

We've managed (yet again) to stray off topic, and back into some nitpicking.

Please stick to the OP's subject, or head elsewhere.

[chiangmaikelly]

  On 12/2/2012 at 11:53 PM, David006 said:

just did a bit of googling....seems that 33% of Atlantic salmon is farmed by Norway...so who knows what turns up in the stores.

Seems a lot of wild salmon is actually escaped ocean pen farmed salmon too!

If you read about salmon aquaculture on Wikipedia could put you off salmon methinks...555

http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/farming_escaped_farmed_salmon.php

It is possible for farmed Chinook and Coho salmon to breed with their wild cousins. On the other hand Atlantic salmon the preferred species for farming in British Columbia cannot breed with Pacific salmon. Attempts to cross breed Atlantic and Pacific salmon in controlled laboratory experiments have not been successful. Additionally, there have been no observations of successful inter breeding in the wild.

Don't know why you would come to a conclusion that would put you off salmon. What would that be?

[David006]

  On 12/3/2012 at 1:12 AM, chiangmaikelly said:

  On 12/2/2012 at 11:53 PM, David006 said:

just did a bit of googling....seems that 33% of Atlantic salmon is farmed by Norway...so who knows what turns up in the stores.

Seems a lot of wild salmon is actually escaped ocean pen farmed salmon too!

If you read about salmon aquaculture on Wikipedia could put you off salmon methinks...555

http://www.marinehar...rmed_salmon.php

It is possible for farmed Chinook and Coho salmon to breed with their wild cousins. On the other hand Atlantic salmon the preferred species for farming in British Columbia cannot breed with Pacific salmon. Attempts to cross breed Atlantic and Pacific salmon in controlled laboratory experiments have not been successful. Additionally, there have been no observations of successful inter breeding in the wild.

Don't know why you would come to a conclusion that would put you off salmon. What would that be?

Don't get me wrong mate but lotsa people are paranoid about the source and/or treatment of their food products...me I eat most stuff.."up to you" the rest...

[U235]

Fresh salmon is for sale in Thailand, but for a private person very hard to find.

One of our wholesellers can diliver them (Norwegian, Scottish and Australian), price is reasonable, approx the double as their frozen cousins. Not too bad if you know that the fish has to take the plane...

But unfortunately, only for restaurants and hotels. Fortunately I have a hotel

[tartempion]

Thailand must not represent much of a market for fresh imported fish.

I worked for Cargolux Airlines in Luxemburg and we flew in 100 metric tonnes/week of fish on ice, thus NOT frozen from Chili (one 747/400F plane)

We also flew in one weekly 747/400F load of fresh "Dutch" flowers from South Africa for the Dutch market

[NeverSure]

Again, I catch a lot of Chinook (King) Salmon and I can't tell the difference between fresh and properly frozen as long as it's not in the freezer too long. We vacuum pack it and use a freezer that's not 'frost free' and it lasts about a year.

Just for fun, here's the local, standard, widely used recipe for it.

Put filets in an open foil boat, skin down. Brush with melted butter. Sprinkle on lemon pepper and garlic salt. Have the BBQ at about medium heat. Toss some hardwood leaves or small branches or wood chips on the coals for smoke and close the BBQ lid. Cook salmon until the segments will just flake apart with a fork, about 20 minutes, and it's done. Serve with lemon slices to squeeze the juice onto the salmon. That's it.

Again, these pictures are from a river that runs very near to my home, and we catch the heck out of these twice a year when they "run" from the ocean to the spawning beds, showing that they are indeed great to catch and eat during that time. They are just as good as if caught in the ocean.

[wayned]

Bought salmon yesterday in Singburi Tesco. Whole fish, frozen solid, cut the steaks on the bandsaw. Takes great as long as it's flash frozen as soon as it's caught and not defrosted/refrozen along the way. Foung that a lot of the frozen smoked salmon in 100g/200g packages is mushy which would indicate that it's been defrosted and refrozen along the way.

[bunta71]

I grew up snorkeling and spearing Chinook ( King, Blackmouth) Salmon downstream of what was the world's largest salmon hatchery at Leavenworth, Washington. Salmon in that river go up to about 55lbs. When we were kids, spearfishing, we would dive and hide behind a large rock and shoot the kings as they swam by. Depending on how long you had already held your breath, sometimes the fish won the battle. Single rubber speargun was $16 at the time, 1960's and before we caught on to cutting the spear cord with a knife, we mowed a lot of lawns to be able to afford another one.

Later I spent 16 years in Alaska flying Supercubs , hunting and fishing. Overall I have sport caught literally thousands of salmon, the biggest being 63 lbs. caught surfcasting with a "T" spoon at Whiskey Gulch on the Kenai Peninsula. Being "spoiled" in this manner, the only way I can eat the stuff here is if I smoke it Alaskan style.( Very heavily smoked and very different than the lightly smoked salmon available here. It's all up to personal tastes or lack thereof.

[Lopburi99]

So you actually smoke it yourself here - interesting! Thanks for the reply and photos.

[bunta71]

  On 1/29/2013 at 3:32 PM, Lopburi99 said:

So you actually smoke it yourself here - interesting! Thanks for the reply and photos.

Mango wood for the smoke and a brown sugar rub style or a brine. Googen is your friend. Or is it spelled googun?

[Hedghog]

Tops supermarket.

Fresh Salmon,flown in from Alaska

[avidflyer]

Friendship, Pattayatai, sells "fresh" salmon. I think it is 700tb/kilo.