Skytrain & Subway

[andyfletch]

In The Nation today:

SKYTRAIN AND SUBWAY: Mend mass transit first, then expand

Published on January 11, 2006

Renegotiating contracts a priority: source

The government should first solve its problems with existing Skytrain and subway operators before opening bids for the construction of new lines, said a source from the Transport Ministry.

The source said the government could pursue several options to achieve this.

These might include negotiating a share buy-back, asking operators to cut ticket fares when the new lines come into service, setting up a new organisation to manage the whole system and having existing operators convert their shares into holdings in the new firm.

Negotiations with existing operators are needed, otherwise they will gain great advantages from the expansion of the new routes, he said.

“The government should try to conclude these issues before opening the new bids. Otherwise, it would be in a disadvantageous position when talking with them later and that could have a negative impact on mass-transit investment overall,” said the source.

Transport Minister Pongsak Ruktapongpisal is scheduled to hold a meeting with related agencies on Friday to find conclusions to all the issues involved with the mass-transit programme.

The programme will be open for interested investors to receive their terms of reference on January 25.

While many have raised concerns over the investment worthiness of the Bt550-billion mass-transit plan, the source said he viewed renegotiating with existing operators as a more important issue.

Once the new routes are opened, existing Skytrain and subway operators would gain from increased passenger numbers from connecting lines and could levy the most expensive fares.

“Unless the government tackles the issue, we’re going to have profitable and loss-making routes. The most profitable lines would belong

to the existing operators while the government would be forced to shoulder the burden for the loss-making routes which go to areas where the population is lower but are needed for development purposes,” he said.

He pointed out that foreign funds have recognised the opportunity and are buying up shares in both the Bangkok Mass Transit System, which operates the Skytrain, and Bangkok Metro Co Ltd, which runs the subway.

Besides getting a better ticket price, renegotiating with the operators would prevent the private sector from gaining excessive benefits from new state investment and reduce the future state burden, he said.

In 2004, Suriya Jungrung-reangkit, the then transport minis-ter, set up a committee to negotiate a share buy-back with BMCL and BTS and had almost concluded a deal.

However, after political changes, the negotiations ended.

Watcharapong Thongrung

The Nation

[Boon Mee]

They need to reduce the price of travel on BTS to make it more affordable for the 'masses'.

It's still too expensive...

[billd766]

They need to reduce the price of travel on BTS to make it more affordable for the 'masses'.

It's still too expensive...

From what I have seen and used as a farang of the Skytrain it is not too expensive as most of the time the trains are full to capacity.

The "masses" dont actually have access to the Skytrain really as the routes don't reach them yet. To enable more people to use the Skytrain will require a massive investment in time and money to build the system further out so that more people will ride the BTS, but of course that will involve more and longer trains which costs more money.

The government is either unable or unwilling to spend the money to expand the system and private operators and builders don't want to wait 50 or 100 years to get their money back.

The BTS has already re-negotiated its existing loans several times at the prices they charge already.

If they were to lower their prices the would still not get enough customers to repay their existing debts and the system would collapse through an overload of passengers.

It is a Catch 22 situation where they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

I was living on Sukhumvit road when they built the line out to On Nut and the traffic chaos on Sukhumvit and the parallel roads was unbelievable. If they expand the system in that way Bangkoks traffic will be clogged up for the next 10 to 15 years.

The government wants the private sector to build the system while accepting minimal or no profit whilst the government reaps all the credit with none of the investment.

[ProfessorFart]

For Westerners the BTS seems unexpensive but consider that a 40B trip for many Thais is an hours wage +.

Trink used to call for a flat 10B fare and I think he had the right idea.

[DJ Pat]

They could save some money - not much tho - by getting rid of the security guards.

[ProfessorFart]

They could save some money - not much tho - by getting rid of the security guards.

Yeah, they could send them to your condo instead, complete with those 'kin whistles!!!

Edited January 12, 2006 by ProfessorFart

[andyfletch]

Looks like yesterdays news was another case of Foot in Mouth disease - this from todays Nation:

Winners for 10 electric train systems to be selected in July

Published on Jan 12 , 2006

Investors in the government's Bt550-billion project to build 10 electric rail-based transportation routes should be selected by July, Transport Minister Pongsak Ruktapongpisal said Thursday.

Pongsak Thursday presented a draft of the terms of reference (TOR) for the project to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

"Our TOR will leave it open for investors to propose their best options. We won't prescribe specific details," Pongsak said.

He said the investment deal would not include concessions to operate the train services, nor did it involve land development.

Interested investors must submit their proposal for handling the project, including expected date of completion, system management and fare calculation.

The investors may also propose industrial-estate projects along the routes, the income from which could be used to subsidise fares.

Pongsak said the government would consider proposals only from investors with good credentials, experience and secure financial standing.

[billd766]

Looks like yesterdays news was another case of Foot in Mouth disease - this from todays Nation:

Winners for 10 electric train systems to be selected in July

Published on Jan 12 , 2006

Investors in the government's Bt550-billion project to build 10 electric rail-based transportation routes should be selected by July, Transport Minister Pongsak Ruktapongpisal said Thursday.

Pongsak Thursday presented a draft of the terms of reference (TOR) for the project to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

"Our TOR will leave it open for investors to propose their best options. We won't prescribe specific details," Pongsak said.

He said the investment deal would not include concessions to operate the train services, nor did it involve land development.

So if my multi national company wanted to bid for a line I wouldn't be allowed to operate it, nor would I be allowed to develop the land.

Interested investors must submit their proposal for handling the project, including expected date of completion, system management and fare calculation.

I must also submit my proposal for handling the project, including the completion date, system management (for what) and fare calculation for a service I am not allowed to provide.

The investors may also propose industrial-estate projects along the routes, the income from which could be used to subsidise fares.

However I can propose industrial projects along the route, the profits of which I give to the train operator to keep the fare prices down.

Pongsak said the government would consider proposals only from investors with good credentials, experience and secure financial standing.

Is it just me or is the government wanting all of the pie and are generously allowing me a couple of crumbs to keep me happy?

Why would any company want to invest a considerable sum of money on something with only a small return over a long period?

[andyfletch]

This in todays Nation:

"MEGA-PROJECTS: The people will judge – Thaksin

Published on January 14, 2006

TV coverage will ensure deals with foreign business are transparent, premier assures. All Thais will be able to watch on television how the government presents its mega-projects to interested businessmen from across the world on January 26. “The broadcast aims to ensure transparency. People will be able to see every procedure and judge our work,” Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said yesterday.

He said foreign diplomats as well as businessmen from around the world would attend the presentation, during which they would be told the Thai government’s requirements for each project.

The businesses then will devise their plans to achieve the desired goals and submit their proposals to the government.

“We are looking for the best in the world,” Thaksin said.

He said the Foreign Affairs Ministry would invite diplomats to a meeting on Monday for further clarification of the government’s plans.

Thaksin said he believed the bidding for the projects would take place within the next four months.

He said the cash value of all the projects would be about Bt1.7 trillion.

However, he said the government would accept offers for barter trade. He added that the Finance Ministry would closely supervise the mega-projects to ensure good financial discipline and the government would not allow its debts on the projects to rise beyond 50 per cent of the country’s gross domestic product.

Deputy Prime Minister Wissanu Krea-ngam said the draft regulation on the government’s mega-projects being drawn up by the Prime Minister’s Office was almost complete.

Transport Minister Pongsak Ruktapongpisal, who had a meeting with Thaksin, said his ministry would also match foreign investors with Thai contractors, as most of the projects would require Thai labour.

He hinted that investors from Britain, the Netherlands, Finland, Denmark and Australia would receive priority when it came to mass-transportation projects, because operators from those countries had good reputations both for the level of their technology and for transparency.

On Thursday Pongsak said his ministry should be able to select investors in the government’s Bt550-billion project to build 10 electric rail-based transportation routes by July.

Pongsak presented a draft of the terms of reference for the project to Thaksin.

“Our terms of reference will leave it open for investors to propose their best options. We won’t prescribe specific details,” Pongsak said.

He said the investment deal would not include concessions to operate the train services, nor did it involve land development."

The highlighted section is a big kick in the nuts for the current ARL contractor, ( who also built the skytrain and subway)

[The Muji]

Trink used to call for a flat 10B fare and I think he had the right idea.

can you imagine what the bts would look like during rush hour? I would have to find a space on the roof

[tavarich]

They need to put an extra car on the BTS as it gets very crowded now.

[raro]

Keep in mind that the skytrain was originally conceived for trains twice as long...so what you see as "fully loaded" is only half full as by the feasibility study.

I also remember sitting a couple of years ago at a function next to some high shot from Siemens HQ in Germany. He was asking me why the skytrain takes off so slow. I said one thing are the missing escalators (they were installed one or two years after opening the skytrain) and that people might be reluctant to climb so many stairs in tropical climates. Good point, he admitted.

The other reason is the high fare. High fare, he asked...just one Dollar max. Well, I said, that's a lot of money if you have only 5,000 Baht monthly income. He looks at me in disbelief and says...who would work for that kind of money?

[Losangels]

Never understood why another carriage isn't added to each BTS' trip during rush hour.

I heard many say that the frequency of the train will alleviate the crowd. I can't understand the logic.?!

[Plus]

I read once that BTS has the highest running costs in the world. That would explain the fares.

[ovenman]

The government wants the private sector to build the system while accepting minimal or no profit whilst the government reaps all the credit with none of the investment.

I have to think that by now the Thai government has developed a horrible reputation for itself in the circle of private companies that take on these infrastructure projects.

Never understood why another carriage isn't added to each BTS' trip during rush hour.

I'm guessing that the reason this isn't done is due to a simple lack of extra carriages to add to each of the current three-carriage trains.

[Crossy]

The 'latest' position following president (sic) Taksin's presentation yesterday can be found here:-

http://www.bangkokmasstransit.com

Looks awfully like we are back where we were 5 years ago, who really knows what's going on.

Delegates were given a CDROM (of which I have a copy) which contains much the same information.

Hot off the press, the latest 'logical' mass transit map:-

The 'real' routes to be taken are here:-

Edited January 27, 2006 by Crossy