Thai Buddhism Is What It Is

[camerata]

One of the recurring (ad nauseam!) themes in the Buddhist Forum is how impure or corrupt Thai Buddhism is and how poorly the Thais (including monks) qualify as "real" Buddhists. The criticism of Thai Buddhism in general tends to come mostly from the non-Thais and well-educated Thais (i.e. newspaper columnists like Sanitsuda Ekachai).

I would like to look at this a different way. First, whatever we like to believe, by many definitions Buddhism is a religion, or at the very least supernaturalism. Religions operate mostly on supply and demand. If the religion doesn't provide what people want, people won't bother with it.

In the case of Buddhism in Thailand, animism was here first and Buddhism came later. So while Buddhism offered something extra - a specific future after death - it generally was molded into something similar to what animism offered: protective power, powerful objects and power people (monks). And if that's what people want, and they are happy to support it, who are we to judge?

In The Lovelorn Ghost and the Magical Monk, the author points out that the normal idea of what makes a good Buddhist layman or monk can't be applied in Thailand. Here, what makes a good monk - as far as most Thais are concerned - is the ability to chant in Pali, give blessings, produce amulets, comfort the suffering and predict the future. Who are we (mostly foreigners and well-educated Thais) to complain? Here, monks are judged more by what they do than what they say (i.e. their sermons), although there are notable exceptions, like Ajahn Chah, whose talks include humour and pithy remarks.

Thus we famously have Phra Peter in his book Phra Farang refusing to give blessings and remarking that in his eyes this made him a better monk, but in the eyes of the Thai monkhood it made him a worse monk. Well, both are right and both are wrong. Arguably, if one refuses to give the Thai laity what they need, and ultimately pay for, why ordain in Thailand?

Personally, I think it's a bit sad that what we think of as "pure Buddhism" is often ignored, even though it has a proven record of reducing suffering, in favour of what is essentially animism, but if that's what people want...

The thing I like about Buddhism in Thailand is that it is broad enough to include both popular Buddhism and "pure" Buddhism. There may only be a small percentage of Thai monks meditating out in the forests, but they are there. Ask Ajahn Brahm, he once met an arahant in the jungle.

[devilish]

According to the culture, there's probably a lot of superficial buddhists or popular buddhism. Who are we to judge if it's on the surface or deep within: isn't this the way a buddhist would analyze it ?

[Para]

Interesting post and one that I am sue will get plenty of replies!

IMO a 'good' Monk is the one that can find the balance between self learning AND serving the local community as always 'The Middle Way'. For me personally I get the utmost pleasure whilst on Alms when giving blessings to those who make merit.

I have like most who read this section read Phra Farang and found it strange the way he refused to accept the maybe mythical side of Buddhism and the way he felt a Monk performing blessings goes against what a Monk should do. I (obviously) live in a Temple and have seen and experienced things that any Westerner would laugh at and consider me crazy but that a Thai would easily understand.

An example - The use of fetuses to make Amulets will sicken most while those that understand will pay huge amounts of money to rent such an Amulet. This is Thailand and until you have lived here a while and experienced the cultural differences then a lot of what happens will be beyond comprehension.

The bond between the local community and the local Wat is very complex and beyond the understanding of the average Farrang layperson. If a Yom gets comfort form a few kinds words spoken to them by a Monk is that such a big thing of them to expect or of us to offer?

Para

[Xangsamhua]

Michael Parnwell and Martin Seeger's article in Journal of Buddhist Ethics http://blogs.dickins...ger-article.pdf discusses how abbots in Yasothon Province have tried with some success to propagate a "purer" Buddhadhamma while not losing the people. Certainly, to insist on a purist form would lose you the majority, yet progress can be made while making concessions.

I wonder though, if, in citing the influence of the pre-Buddhist, animist history of the Thai people, we do not give enough emphasis to Hindu influences on Thai Buddhism. They seem to me to be very strong. In fact, I suspect most Thai Buddhists are unwitting Hindus, without the caste component.

The Khmer influence on Siam was powerful from the 6th to the 15th century, and during much of that time the Khmer kings were Hindu. Ayudhaya continued the tradition by employing Khmer Brahmins as counsellors to the Court on matters of ceremony and protocol, and they're still there today. Many Thai given names are Hindu in origin - Apasara, Lalita, Prabha, Anuman, Chantra, Kamala, Kannika, Khanet, Krisana, Krisanet, Ratsamee, Vera, Vissanu, and so on. Thai kings are Mahakshatryas (the warrior and administrator caste). Bangkok is the city of Indra.

I guess the animist influence is fundamental and endogenous - from the ground up and locally evolved - whereas the Hindu influence is top-down and exogenous, but it seems very strong nonetheless.

Incidentally, a couple of studies I looked up indicate that less than 1.00% of Thai people do not believe in God (i.e. 99% of them do).

http://www.pitzer.ed...-under-7000.pdf

http://fringe.daveso...-Lynn-et-al.pdf

[camerata]

I didn't mention Hinduism because I thought it might take us off-topic. We could lump it in with animism, but my point is still that we shouldn't complain if the majority of Thais want a particular flavour of Buddhism or if monks oblige them. It's their choice, after all.

[expat63]

I consider myself as a Buddhist and have been monk with Wat Phra Tammakaya.

I think it’s easy to mix up Buddhism and Thai culture. A lot of the spiritual part of Thais is not Buddhism like ghosts, tree-spirits, lucky/unlucky, superstition etc.

I don’t quite understand what Phra Peter said: refusing to give blessings and remarking that in his eyes this made him a better monk, but in the eyes of the Thai monkhood it made him a worse monk.

As I understand it. A monk has to live after 228 rules. If he gives blessing or not shouldn’t make any different as long as he follow the rules.

[Para]

As I understand it. A monk has to live after 228 rules. If he gives blessing or not shouldn’t make any different as long as he follow the rules.

I agree IMO part of a Monk's duty is to take care of the local communities spiritual needs. If I am a Monk can do something that makes a laypersons life brighter I will obviously in accordance with the Patimokkha.

[camerata]

According to the culture, there's probably a lot of superficial buddhists or popular buddhism. Who are we to judge if it's on the surface or deep within: isn't this the way a buddhist would analyze it ?

This still seems to be judging a lot of Buddhists as superficial, and by implication inferior. From the Buddhist perspective, this is just us inflating our egos and feeling superior. Better not to judge at all. Obviously, there is a "pure" form of Buddhism, but I don't see any reason why anyone should follow it or be labelled superficial (or worse, a hypocrite) if they call themselves a Buddhist and don't follow it.

[Para]

As I understand it. A monk has to live after 228 rules. If he gives blessing or not shouldn’t make any different as long as he follow the rules.

I agree IMO part of a Monk's duty is to take care of the local communities spiritual needs. If I am a Monk can do something that makes a laypersons life brighter I will obviously in accordance with the Patimokkha.

[camerata]

Wat Dhammakaya is a good example of a sect giving a sub-group of people (middle-class Thais) what they want. Regardless of their weird teachings, they offer freshly scrubbed, untattooed, educated monks who are serious about the Vinaya, and they seem to offer a sense of togetherness more suitable for urban Thais than a visit to the local temple. And then there are the spectacular events and the cool technology. It's all supply and demand.

[expat63]

Wat Dhammakaya is a good example of a sect giving a sub-group of people (middle-class Thais) what they want. Regardless of their weird teachings, they offer freshly scrubbed, untattooed, educated monks who are serious about the Vinaya, and they seem to offer a sense of togetherness more suitable for urban Thais than a visit to the local temple. And then there are the spectacular events and the cool technology. It's all supply and demand.

I am agree with you. The teachings was not my thing, but from the monkhods side was actually quite nice.

I am more comfortable with our local Temple, but at that time I didn’t spoke one word Thai and in Wat Dhammakaya the teaching was in English. So there for this Temple.

[IMA_FARANG]

There's a teaching story I rather like about (in it's own way) that very subject.

Once there was a village of farmers where it had not rained for quite a long time.

The people of the village heard that very night there would be heavy rain after the long drought.

Because they all wanted water they all put containers out to get their share of the much needed water.

Some of them had only small metal containers, others had large clay pots to hold the water.

That night the rain came as promised.

In the morning, each one of those containers...whether small or large...was filled completely to it's brim with just enough water to fill it.....not to much and not to little.

Just enough to meet the ability of the container to keep it.....and just enough for the user's need.

I hope you see the point of that story?

Edited July 9, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[hookedondhamma]

I need to find a copy of this Phra Falang!

Here's onethat I found recently though, though it mainly takes place on in and off the coast of India.

Edit* and one day I'd like to meet Ajahn Brahm and ask him about his experience of meeting an arahant in the jungle! Very inspiring!

Edited July 9, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[Para]

I need to find a copy of this Phra Falang!

Hookedondhamma give this link a try. I have used them many times and they give free EMS delivery. PHRA FARANG: AN ENGLISH MONK IN THAILAND

[camerata]

Phra Farang is a fun book to read. It could have been called Culture Shock Thailand: In the Monastery. The author didn't know the Thai language or Thai culture but ultimately he ended up in a monastery where nobody spoke English and the abbot didn't meditate. You can easily imagine the results.

Ajahn Brahm gives only a brief description of the arahant, I think in his first book. He doesn't give his name or the place.

A more disturbing book is What the Buddha Never Taught by Tim Ward, which you can still find on Amazon Canada (but not for long). This should have been called What the Author Never Understood and is a perfect example of the judgmental-ism I referred to in the OP. The author spends time as a pha khao at Wat Pa Nanachat. For the first half of the book his suicidal friend criticizes everything at the wat and the author, who has previously read some Ajahn Chah books, defends it very well. But then the friend leaves and the author himself lets it rip, criticizing not only the farang monks but Thai Buddhism in general.

He says things like, "Why do the monks let the villagers bow down and worship them?" Well, what are they supposed to do - drag them up on their feet and tell them everyone is equal? Nevertheless, it's an interesting look at a farang wat in Thailand.

[Para]

He says things like, "Why do the monks let the villagers bow down and worship them?" Well, what are they supposed to do - drag them up on their feet and tell them everyone is equal? Nevertheless, it's an interesting look at a farang wat in Thailand.

That's the problem with ignorance camerata. You know when laity bow down its not to the Monk but to what the Monk represents, Lord Buddha.

Sadly some people don't ordain for the right reasons and why he would choose to be an unhappy Monk when he can disrobe anytime is beyond me. Actually my guess is he will be unhappy and find fault with whatever he does in life.......

[camerata]

He never actually ordained. He was a journalist who spent less than a year as a pha khao (anagarika) and then wrote a book about it. I'm sure he planned all along to write a first-hand account exposing the foibles of farang monks.

[Para]

He never actually ordained. He was a journalist who spent less than a year as a pha khao (anagarika) and then wrote a book about it. I'm sure he planned all along to write a first-hand account exposing the foibles of farang monks.

Amazing. So what IYO he set out from the start to simply discredit Farrang Monks?

Each to their own I guess. It got him his 15 minutes of fame in this life and a world of Karma pain in the next!

[necronx99]

Thai Buddhism has done for Buddha the same thing the Catholics did for Jesus.

Religion as a business to the detriment of the people.

My 2 cents.

[camerata]

I don't think his prime objective was to discredit farang monks. He's written several books on spiritual themes, with titles like Arousing the Goddess: Sex and Love in the Buddhist Ruins of India, so it probably seemed like a good subject to cover.

It was quite well received at the time. Pico Iyer wrote: "When Tim Ward's cult classic first came out, it instantly established itself as one of the most engaging, fun and clear-headed accounts of the search for transformation that many of us have read." That wasn't my impression, though.

[Several]

I found the reality of Thai Buddhism a bit of a shock. All my previous experience was book learnin' as I believe is the case with most farangs, so to see it in action was not what I expected. The first temples I went to were with my girlfriend at the time. She would always go straight for the fortune telling sticks. I though it was the equivalent of a catholic church with a condom machine.

I read Phra Farang since becoming a monk and found it funny and simmilar to my circumstance. Except my robes don't fall off. So I keep an open mind, half and half as Para said, practice and giving the yoms what they require. Still can't quite get along with the chanting though. I know the Thais expect it but I'm wishing I had one of those chanting machines that Camerata mentioned in the technology forum. I could dummy it up to look like me and hope the head monk didn't notice anything but improvement.

So I was a bit resistant to the culture at first, but it is their way and they have been at it a very long time and they are good enough to let me in so the least I can do is reserve my judgment and be grateful for the opportunity to practice here.

[Para]

I read Phra Farang since becoming a monk and found it funny and simmilar to my circumstance. Except my robes don't fall off.

LOL! I thought the same I mean how can they fall off when your lower robe is held up with a belt? Poetic license maybe?

So I keep an open mind, half and half as Para said, practice and giving the yoms what they require.

The Middle Way my fellow Phra. We have 2 Monks here that are at completely the opposite ends of that scale. One is amazing with the Yom's and they all love him the other is firmly dedicated to the teachings and attends Buddhist University 3 times a week. Both are excellent Monks but also very different.

Still can't quite get along with the chanting though. I know the Thais expect it but I'm wishing I had one of those chanting machines that Camerata mentioned in the technology forum. I could dummy it up to look like me and hope the head monk didn't notice anything but improvement.

And I thought I was the only one that struggled with the chanting! Why on earth there isn't an 'real' English translation of the yellow chanting book I have no idea......

[Bosse137]

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Bosse137

[hookedondhamma]

It's wise to remember that the actions of other sometimes are just that - the actions of others. We can give ourselves an aneurism by focusing on what we deem incorrect and get ourselves riled up by pointing fingers, but at the end of the day it sets us back in many ways.

[Para]

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

[rockyysdt]

It's wise to remember that the actions of other sometimes are just that - the actions of others. We can give ourselves an aneurism by focusing on what we deem incorrect and get ourselves riled up by pointing fingers, but at the end of the day it sets us back in many ways.

Yes, I've also spent much effort and time advising others of their shortcomings and also hand out much unwanted advice.

I forget that l wallow in many personal shortcomings far worse.

This has a number of consequences which can impact not only on myself.

He calls himself a Buddhist and yet he ...........................................!

I must resolve to work on my own negative conditioning and must also recognise why l declare to be a Buddhist to others (ego).

Much better to keep it to myself and work on my practice instead.

[hookedondhamma]

It's wise to remember that the actions of other sometimes are just that - the actions of others. We can give ourselves an aneurism by focusing on what we deem incorrect and get ourselves riled up by pointing fingers, but at the end of the day it sets us back in many ways.

Yes, I've also spent much effort and time advising others of their shortcomings and also hand out much unwanted advice.

I forget that l wallow in many personal shortcomings far worse.

This has a number of consequences which can impact not only on myself.

He calls himself a Buddhist and yet he ...........................................!

I must resolve to work on my own negative conditioning and must also recognise why l declare to be a Buddhist to others (ego).

Much better to keep it to myself and work on my practice instead.

I know exactly what you mean, and truth be told, I've gotten alot better at it, but by no means is it eradicated with me, yet. But back when I was the forest, the monks I stayed with were the same. And I couldn't figure it out - why are you criticising me? And then one day it hit me. They weren't perfect either, and I sure as heck knew I wasn't. That was a big moment for me. Nowadays for the most part I can catch it and kill it before it takes a shape, and when I can't I'm lucky I have people around me that will let me know. Very lucky.

[hookedondhamma]

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

[Para]

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry

I am the only 1 at the temple that doesn't smoke and as for the chewing sorry but its simply disgusting having to sit there watching Monks with rotten teeth spitting whatever it is into a bottle!

[Bosse137]

Whether smoking is socially acceptable or not(What about cencur in movies..),is a bit beyond the point.Everybody knows,that it is extremely bad for your health AND sets a very bad example for others "if the monks can do it..." Isn`t that enough reason to stop doing it?! I for one admire Buddhas teachings,but I can not feel any respect for monks,walking the streets,smoking! The way I see it is,that if they can`t understand all the negativity with smoking or,alternatively,are unable to control it,well,then....Regarding the point,made many times already,about beeing passiv when you experience something that seems wrong to you,I understand what is meant and can agree up to a point.But there are times "when good men must speak.." to try to stop/alter wrongdoings!Or in other words,what meaning is there to be a better and better person in theory,if you can not practically help others in need of help?!..