Thai Buddhism Is What It Is

[Bosse137]

About your position when mediteting;never mind if you sit like a staty or hang upside down,the important thing is that you get something positiv out of it! Same thing with other dogms.Let me try your patiens with something I read in a book by Govinda.Buddha expected of his pupils,that they did not made his teachings to dogm or him personally to an authority.Once he asked Ananda if he understood his teachings and made them real within him,or because Ananda belived in and worshiped Buddha. When Ananda answered,that he belived in the teachings because his own realisation,Buddha was happy with that answer. Buddha did not want his pupils to just belive his words,but use them as a startingpoint for their own experiences and decisions! The light is universiell,but everyone has to see it with their own eyes... Now my comment: This is what first attracted me to Buddha.No dogm,no blind (stupid..)obedience,but some effort to use your own brain and find the way to what is truth to you.May I add,that the way I understand Buddha,there is no "God" in his ideas,neither does he mean,that you will have an etarnal,individual, life."Nothing is born and nothing dies" means to me,that everything changes,is,but it doesn`t die or be born.Like waterdrops,they falls into the see,they evaporets,they become drops again.Not exactly the same,not as "individuals" Everything hangs together,is basically "the same". You can laugh,but it happened to me once,that I experienced something most fantastic;I became "one" with the trees and everything around me and there were no feeling of here and now.That was the most joyful moment in my life! Hope I not bored you to death,but you asked me back here.....

Edited July 15, 2012 by Bosse137

[hookedondhamma]

I predict annihilation in the hands of Evangelicals in due time..

I think that's an interesting comment. I guess things began to switch up after a while. Buddhism was once prominent in India, and it moved outwards when things began to take a change.

I've seen many Thais convert to Christianity lately, since my coming here. Even in the States I had many Thais express their concern about this. At the same time though, while in the states, I saw many Americans switching to Buddhism, and my old acquaintances worried about my induction into this 'cult'.

Who knows what the future holds. I don't know any other word to use other than 'corruption' - I think when it starts to get to too high a level, many try to revert back to what they consider the foundation of the 'teachings.'

If anyone has the time though, I'd highly suggest visiting a Mon temple. From my ordination as a novice until now, I've always lived at Thai temples. But circumstances change, and I found myself spending a rainy season at a Mon temple. It was an invaluable experience, and reminded me that it is not only the forest temples in Isaan and other areas that hold true to Therevada teachings (from my experience).

I had a feeling that Thailand would eventually become a muslim nation, but then again, what are feelings? - hence the 'had'.

If you're in Lopburi feel free to send me a line.

If in Bangkok there's the Kret island, but I have yet to spend a few nights there. Same feel though, but I have to have that hands-on experience before I speak any further.

[Several]

@ Vinnie. Heh. Not what Buddha predicted. I think you underestimate how deeply Buddhisn is rooted in Thai culture. The evangelical forms of Christianity are bordering on fanatical which is a bit much for your average sabai Thai. More likely the Evangelical sects will be overrun by Islam. True that the protestant reformation was necessary to overcome papal dominion, but Buddhism does not order crusades and auto da fe for heretics. Nor does it burn books that disagree with Dhamma. So there is far less reason to rebel. Perhaps it is needed, but it will not happen.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Several

[Bosse137]

You can consider a christmas tree,green,freshsmelling,beautyful.Then over time,people hang on,"decorete" it,with more and more krims-krams,until finaly,you don`t even see the tree any more...That is what,IMO,exactly what has happened to all the religions.!Just saw Several`s post,and I agree with him;Buddhism is a "religion" of tolerance,perhaps one of it`s strongest hallmarks.And actually more of a way of life and a way of how to live this life,than a "religion.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Bosse137

[rockyysdt]

Who knows what the future holds. I don't know any other word to use other than 'corruption' - I think when it starts to get to too high a level, many try to revert back to what they consider the foundation of the 'teachings.'

I don't know what the answer is really.

Perhaps if civil duties, such as presiding over births, deaths, marriages, exhorsisms, blessings, and freeing entities stuck between births, were completely removed from the list of duties, then this would discourage racketeering, and reduce the attraction of wrong types into the cloth.

Maybe if Monks could then go back to their core function of studying, practicing and teaching Dhamma, then the corrupting influences we've been speaking of can be flushed out.

As Vinnie indicated, Buddhism anchored in the foundation teachings is springing up in the West, while Thai Buddhism is slowly being strangled by greed, delusion, & aversion dressed up by culture and tradition.

Given the state of institutional Buddhism in Thailand today, who has the best chance of Awakening (Enlightenment)?

• Those who Ordain as Monks and hoping the Monastery/Teacher they become tied to has the credentials to assist them on their path or
  
• Those who join one of the many Western Sanghas with access to a plethora of respected teachers which in previous times may have taken many lifetimes to access.
  

This is an example:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teachers/

It's been previously said that if Monks were band from smoking, they could conceivably lose half their ranks overnight.

If Monks function was restricted to studying, practicing and teaching Dhamma, then losing half their number would be an advantage to Buddhism rather than a problem.

It's only currently a problem as there would be a shortage due to the need to preside over secondary functions.

Edited July 15, 2012 by rockyysdt

[khaowong1]

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

Er, well, I smoke. And chew betel nut, though not often. My teacher said don't bother trying to quit, though I do agree that it doesn't look good. An old lady up the road where we stayed on Tudong keeps inviting me over for some 'maak'. The teacher says 'chew maak, smoke buri, read tipitaka.'

It makes me laugh when people get so vehement about the evils of smoking. The world is full of war, greed and ignorance which really need stopping and yet we are reviled for such a little thing. Ah well.

I'm pretty sure the Buddha would have said no to betel, nicotine and coffee too (another sin of mine), so I'll get around to quitting. I gave up everything else so why not. But I'm not going to fret over it as I feel it isn't a big deal. Plus teacher says its ok, which is rare for him. Everything else is verboten.

I know I'll cop a beating over this, c'est la vie. Fire away. Just let me have my last cigarette...

You won't get a beating from me. I understand exactly what your saying. And agree. There's a whole lot more problems we should be concerned about than smoking or chewing. Luang Por Koon smoked all his life and I don't see anyone complaining to him about it and it would be funny to listen to his answer if they did. Does anyone think he was a bad monk becaused he smoked? I've never seen a photo of him he didn't have a cigerette in his hand.

[khaowong1]

I'm still only half way through The Lovelorn Ghost and the Magical Monk (highly recommended, BTW) and the author has mentioned that some scholars refer to practices that I had called "animism" (amulets, images, tattoos, mantras, yantras, etc) as Tantric Theravada or Esoteric Theravada. He himself seems to prefer the less classy term, "protective magic," but agrees it is a de facto part of Thai Buddhism.

The author of The Ascendancy of Theravada Buddhism in Southeast Asia said something similar: that what we have in Thailand is "Thai Buddhism" rather than "Theravada Buddhism."

I wonder if any of the phra farang here have chanted any non-canonical parittas, such as the popular Jinapanjara Gatha, made famous by Somdet To?

Yes, I have.. and I can't get through it all by memory.. I have to have a cheat sheet with me.

[khaowong1]

About your position when mediteting;never mind if you sit like a staty or hang upside down,the important thing is that you get something positiv out of it! Same thing with other dogms.Let me try your patiens with something I read in a book by Govinda.Buddha expected of his pupils,that they did not made his teachings to dogm or him personally to an authority.Once he asked Ananda if he understood his teachings and made them real within him,or because Ananda belived in and worshiped Buddha. When Ananda answered,that he belived in the teachings because his own realisation,Buddha was happy with that answer. Buddha did not want his pupils to just belive his words,but use them as a startingpoint for their own experiences and decisions! The light is universiell,but everyone has to see it with their own eyes... Now my comment: This is what first attracted me to Buddha.No dogm,no blind (stupid..)obedience,but some effort to use your own brain and find the way to what is truth to you.May I add,that the way I understand Buddha,there is no "God" in his ideas,neither does he mean,that you will have an etarnal,individual, life."Nothing is born and nothing dies" means to me,that everything changes,is,but it doesn`t die or be born.Like waterdrops,they falls into the see,they evaporets,they become drops again.Not exactly the same,not as "individuals" Everything hangs together,is basically "the same". You can laugh,but it happened to me once,that I experienced something most fantastic;I became "one" with the trees and everything around me and there were no feeling of here and now.That was the most joyful moment in my life! Hope I not bored you to death,but you asked me back here.....

I've been to the same place bosse, and it's fantastic.

[Several]

Thanks Khaowong. It seems this is an issue we'd need Buddha himself to decide for us.

Also agree with Bosse. The level of adornment extra to what each religion preaches at core is growing. If it attracts people closer to finding truth or solace then ok. But if it becomes a circus then thats very bad indeed. There seems to be a lot of criticism levelled at Thai Buddhism from farangs but it is based on the image portrayed. We then defend by highlighting the not-so-obvious good that goes on behind the facade. Maybe it shows some farangs have higher hopes for what Buddhism can achieve. As stated in an earlier post, and from personal experience many westerners have some interest in Buddhism. But supporting knowledge lacks.

Perhaps Rockyy is right. Ban the smoking and money making activities and 'prune the bush' to let the flowers bloom.

I thought we didn't do marriages anyway, more births means more suffering? I could be mistaken.

[weary]

Are we judge-mental, senti-mental or just mental when we hope for everyone to adhere to 'pure' Buddhism?

[harrry]

Are we judge-mental, senti-mental or just mental when we hope for everyone to adhere to 'pure' Buddhism?

My view is that it is fair to expect that those professing to live by a certain code do so if they make any public pronouncent of such or recieve in any way support from others which is even slightly based on their expressed code. This includes where the religion or code is designated as a State Religion or input from them is used in laws such as those related to drinking hours or sexual issues.

[leolibby]

Are we judge-mental, senti-mental or just mental when we hope for everyone to adhere to 'pure' Buddhism?

we would be funda-mental

[huli]

Are we judge-mental, senti-mental or just mental when we hope for everyone to adhere to 'pure' Buddhism?

compart-mental

[camerata]

How serious are Thais with their religion?

It is not possible to generalize whether Thai Buddhists are serious or not about their religion. Most probably this is true of all religious institutions, within which we find varying degrees of commitment and dedication. However, unlike most other religions, which stress the importance of faith more than anything else, Buddhism places great emphasis on wisdom and understanding. Thus the level of faith and commitment to religious practice tends to depend largely on understanding and appreciation of its teachings. Naturally, this varies from one individual to another.

If generosity and friendliness were the standards by which to judge religious commitment, Thai Buddhists would no doubt be regarded as dedicated and earnest practitioners. The Thai traits of generosity and friendliness are often cited as examples of the Buddhist influence on the national personality.

Briefly speaking, there are three modes of making merit recommended by the Buddha for a lay Buddhist to follow. These are generosity (dana), morality (sila), and mental development (bhavana). Of these three principles, generosity is considered basic training, for it explicitly concerns outward practice. It has been pointed out that although the act of giving itself is based on an inner quality of mind, yet it is directed outwardly. The practice of morality refers to the conscious observance of moral precepts. This is said to be of higher merit and more noble than generosity, because it directly concerns the control of bodily and verbal actions. Mental development is of the highest virtue, for it deals with the training and purification of the mind, which is the most important component of the psycho-physical structure. To train the mind is to engage in the practice of meditation.

Generosity is the mode of merit making that Thai Buddhists practice more than anything else. This normally takes the form of offering food to monks, supporting the Sangha with material needs, contributing to monastic construction projects, or supporting charitable services. Fewer people go beyond this step to follow the moral precepts regularly. Of course, there is a customary practice of ceremonially asking for the five precepts at the beginning of every formal religious function, and most Buddhists take pains to fulfill their part in the ceremony. But, to be sure, this does not always amount to a conscious attempt to practice according to the spirit and intention of the precepts. The more devout would be an exception here. As for meditation, few are ever inclined to commit themselves to it, especially to a formal course or in a prolonged training program. Nevertheless, the recent increase of public interest in meditation may be regarded as an encouraging sign that this supreme form of merit making has finally received the attention it deserves, although one would not expect it to become a household practice.

Buddhist holy days are still considered special occasions for making merit in Thailand. There are a number of regular religious sermons or discussions on radio and television, especially on Sundays or holy days. The more important holy days, those connected with special events in the life of the Buddha, such as Magha, Visakha, and Asalha, are celebrated with greater enthusiasm and piety than the others. The three month period of the rains retreat is considered especially sacred for spiritual practices, and young men will leave home to enter monastic life for training as well as for merit.

One may say therefore that, on the one hand, the majority of Thai Buddhists need to commit themselves more meaningfully to the religion, yet, on the other, it may also be rightly asserted that Buddhism in the country is still very much alive and strong. Optimistically, one hopes that things will improve, for Thailand is admittedly one of the most important strongholds of the Buddhist world today.

Source: Buddhanet.

[rockyysdt]

How serious are Thais with their religion?

It is not possible to generalize whether Thai Buddhists are serious or not about their religion. Most probably this is true of all religious institutions, within which we find varying degrees of commitment and dedication. However, unlike most other religions, which stress the importance of faith more than anything else, Buddhism places great emphasis on wisdom and understanding. Thus the level of faith and commitment to religious practice tends to depend largely on understanding and appreciation of its teachings. Naturally, this varies from one individual to another.

If generosity and friendliness were the standards by which to judge religious commitment, Thai Buddhists would no doubt be regarded as dedicated and earnest practitioners. The Thai traits of generosity and friendliness are often cited as examples of the Buddhist influence on the national personality.

Briefly speaking, there are three modes of making merit recommended by the Buddha for a lay Buddhist to follow. These are generosity (dana), morality (sila), and mental development (bhavana). Of these three principles, generosity is considered basic training, for it explicitly concerns outward practice. It has been pointed out that although the act of giving itself is based on an inner quality of mind, yet it is directed outwardly. The practice of morality refers to the conscious observance of moral precepts. This is said to be of higher merit and more noble than generosity, because it directly concerns the control of bodily and verbal actions. Mental development is of the highest virtue, for it deals with the training and purification of the mind, which is the most important component of the psycho-physical structure. To train the mind is to engage in the practice of meditation.

Generosity is the mode of merit making that Thai Buddhists practice more than anything else. This normally takes the form of offering food to monks, supporting the Sangha with material needs, contributing to monastic construction projects, or supporting charitable services. Fewer people go beyond this step to follow the moral precepts regularly. Of course, there is a customary practice of ceremonially asking for the five precepts at the beginning of every formal religious function, and most Buddhists take pains to fulfill their part in the ceremony. But, to be sure, this does not always amount to a conscious attempt to practice according to the spirit and intention of the precepts. The more devout would be an exception here. As for meditation, few are ever inclined to commit themselves to it, especially to a formal course or in a prolonged training program. Nevertheless, the recent increase of public interest in meditation may be regarded as an encouraging sign that this supreme form of merit making has finally received the attention it deserves, although one would not expect it to become a household practice.

Buddhist holy days are still considered special occasions for making merit in Thailand. There are a number of regular religious sermons or discussions on radio and television, especially on Sundays or holy days. The more important holy days, those connected with special events in the life of the Buddha, such as Magha, Visakha, and Asalha, are celebrated with greater enthusiasm and piety than the others. The three month period of the rains retreat is considered especially sacred for spiritual practices, and young men will leave home to enter monastic life for training as well as for merit.

One may say therefore that, on the one hand, the majority of Thai Buddhists need to commit themselves more meaningfully to the religion, yet, on the other, it may also be rightly asserted that Buddhism in the country is still very much alive and strong. Optimistically, one hopes that things will improve, for Thailand is admittedly one of the most important strongholds of the Buddhist world today.

Source: Buddhanet.

Only to add that many seek merit in order for a better next life.

[Neeranam]

Wat Dhammakaya is a good example of a sect giving a sub-group of people (middle-class Thais) what they want. Regardless of their weird teachings, they offer freshly scrubbed, untattooed, educated monks who are serious about the Vinaya, and they seem to offer a sense of togetherness more suitable for urban Thais than a visit to the local temple. And then there are the spectacular events and the cool technology. It's all supply and demand.

Sects and cults(as I'd call Dhammakaya)emerge from all religions. Their leader and many followers are above middle-class.

"Thai Buddhism" is what? Can I say "Scottish Christianity", "American Judaism" or "Thai Islam"?

Buddhism is Buddhism. Saying "Thai Buddhism" is Buddhism is like saying "The Church of Latter Day Saints" is "Christianity" or "Jainism" is Hinduism".

[camerata]

My point was that it is what most of the Thais want - supply and demand - and it does at least encompass orthodox Buddhism. "Japanese Buddhism" is much further from the original teachings, IMO, as is "Tibetan Buddhism."

[MrRealDeal]

Someone arriving on a flying white elephant doesn't exactly lend itself to keeping the story and teachings pure.

[Several]

That depends on what they symbolise and how that focuses the mind. You could just as easily say m symbolises mass in e=mc^2, but it is not possible to define what mass actually is. Things can seem ridiculous when they are looked at literally. Thai Buddhism has evolved over a long time and has been exposed to many cultural influences. Some of it is odd, some is being used to the advantage of individuals, but mainly it is concerned with moral behaviour. Many people could learn from that. Right speech alone is a discipline. The majority of westerners think freedom of speech is little more than an excuse to be rude and negative about the things they don't understand. Read almost any forum here. High level technology and good education equate to bickering, slander, trolling and even threats. Is that seriously the best we can do? Instead of people nit-picking about monks who live a life they fear to, perhaps they should learn from them first. And why not have Thai Buddhism? Nothing wrong with cultural variety that does not harm others. Seeing from a different perspective brings deeper understanding.

Rule of thumb. Open your mind before you open your mouth.

[MrRealDeal]

inertial mass is a quantitative measure of an object's resistance to acceleration. In addition to this, gravitational mass is a quantitative measure that is proportional to the magnitude of the gravitational force.

Inertial mass is the type of mass referred to in your example , and is easily defined not impossible to define.

Good rule of thumb

Edited June 28, 2013 by MrRealDeal

[camerata]

The white elephant was part of a dream the Buddha's mother had. The episode is symbolic and isn't unique to Thailand..

[MrRealDeal]

I know that my , my overall point would be that when you have books that contain things that are open to interpretation it lends itself to becoming impure over time as people branch off with their own interpretations , the more of them or the bigger the book the quicker and more "impurity" you would expect to get ..... I guess I should have said that and kept the elephant out of it !

[Several]

inertial mass is a quantitative measure of an object's resistance to acceleration. In addition to this, gravitational mass is a quantitative measure that is proportional to the magnitude of the gravitational force.

 

Inertial mass is the type of mass referred to in your example , and is easily defined not impossible to define.

 

Good rule of thumb

Thats how it behaves not what it is. You once advised me to look this stuff up and I did.

[MrRealDeal]

Well we got all our posts deleted last time for talking science so we might as well stop now .... nice to see you again I remember that discussion

I guess to keep it on topic sort of, open mindedness like purity can go to far in the open direction by being so open minded you refuse to understand something reasonable like I would claim mass is easy to understand without getting into science but the open minded or pure topic.

And pure goes a little to far when someone wants to keep purity over needed change at the expense of rationality.

Edited June 28, 2013 by MrRealDeal

[sabaijai]

Wat Dhammakaya is a good example of a sect giving a sub-group of people (middle-class Thais) what they want. Regardless of their weird teachings, they offer freshly scrubbed, untattooed, educated monks who are serious about the Vinaya, and they seem to offer a sense of togetherness more suitable for urban Thais than a visit to the local temple. And then there are the spectacular events and the cool technology. It's all supply and demand.

Sects and cults(as I'd call Dhammakaya)emerge from all religions. Their leader and many followers are above middle-class.

"Thai Buddhism" is what? Can I say "Scottish Christianity", "American Judaism" or "Thai Islam"?

Buddhism is Buddhism. Saying "Thai Buddhism" is Buddhism is like saying "The Church of Latter Day Saints" is "Christianity" or "Jainism" is Hinduism".

No it's like describing Tibetan Buddhism or Mongolian Buddhism or Chinese Buddhism, all descriptors for different cultural interpretations. You may not like to use the term, but many find it useful to describe the way the Thais integrate animism, Brahmanism and Buddhism.

In a similar way, Tibetan Buddhism incorporates customs and concepts from pre-Buddhist Bon, Chinese Buddhists borrow a bit from Confucian teachings, and so on.

.

Can I say "Scottish Christianity", "American Judaism" or "Thai Islam"?

Why not? I've heard the first two terms before and there are entire books on such topics.

http://www.standrewpress.com/books/9780715209653/Pioneers-of-Scottish-Christianity

http://www.amazon.com/American-Judaism-Jonathan-D-Sarna/dp/0300109768

And many of the the ways in which Thais practise Islam are unique to Thailand, as any long residence in Minburi will reveal.

[Several]

Well we got all our posts deleted last time for talking science so we might as well stop now .... nice to see you again I remember that discussion

 

I guess to keep it on topic sort of, open mindedness like purity can go to far in the open direction by being so open minded you refuse to understand something reasonable like I would claim mass is easy to understand without getting into science but the open minded or pure topic.

 

And pure goes a little to far when someone wants to keep purity over needed change at the expense of rationality.

Heh. I was thinking the same thing. The delete button is probably warmed up and ready to go.

Right, everything in moderation (no pun intended). Accepting every idea presented would be a bit ting tong. And purity becomes fundamentalism at some point. Middle way is best. I guess insight is what guides us here. I am told that insight is not rationality, nor some psychic phenomena, but a subconscious recognition of 'what is what' that surfaces in the conscious.

The thing about the 'Thai' Buddhism idea is that its also an interpretation from Wat to Wat and from monk to monk. In fact I reckon there are as many Buddhisms as there are Buddhists.

Nice to see you back.

[MrRealDeal]

Thank you , not sure how long I will be back , one more vacation and I will need a new name ! lol

I don't know much about it but I was wondering how Buddhist the concept of purity even is to being with !

[Several]

Good question. I was assuming 'sticking to doctrine' but you've got me thinking now. I guess the main sense would be in living as morally as possible, though the only truly pure thing is Nibbana itself, all else being subject to impermanence and decay.

[rockyysdt]

Good question. I was assuming 'sticking to doctrine' but you've got me thinking now. I guess the main sense would be in living as morally as possible, though the only truly pure thing is Nibbana itself, all else being subject to impermanence and decay.

Hi Sev.

Isn't it more abstaining from that which is unwise, rather than living morally?

I'm not sure who posed the thought, but I also thought that performing unwise acts fuel ego and set up situations which detract from ones concentration and awareness!?

Edited June 29, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Absolutely, only Sila is the beginning of wisdom. A clear conscience can be as valuable as meditation, most of us have a few skeletons in the closet. Plus I was told to say it by an elder monk and I think he's right. So I agree with you, this is just a good place to start.