Monk Chanting

[hookedondhamma]

Still can't quite get along with the chanting though. I know the Thais expect it but I'm wishing I had one of those chanting machines that Camerata mentioned in the technology forum. I could dummy it up to look like me and hope the head monk didn't notice anything but improvement.

And I thought I was the only one that struggled with the chanting! Why on earth there isn't an 'real' English translation of the yellow chanting book I have no idea......

Oh, the yellow book - the Mon Piti. That's a good start, but after a while I'd move away from it and focus on reading the 'Thai Pali'. The Mon Piti uses, as the monks say, Thai, while the other uses Pali. I don't know how to explain it but if you can get a hold of the 'Thai Pali' (a good example would be the 'Palm leaf Patimokkha' rules, it may help you out with memorizing the chants a bit easier.

As each consonant has an initial 'a' sound and only long vowels and niggahit (sp) sounds are made apparent. It's almost a bit like reading music. Either way the Mon Piti is great when learning Thai. If you get the chance, though, check out the other option.

I know I've mentioned it before, but Ajaahn Geoff's 'A Chanting Guide' is a great book to use in correlation with a Thai chant book. Can't speak for every temple but the english versions I've seen have all varied, and that's including my temple in the United States. The style used in Ajaahn Geoff's guide is the one you will see when reading 'academically' transcripted Pali. And the Thai version found on the 'bai lan' you will see when reading the 'academically transcripted' Pali in Thai.

Either way, just keep up with it. Eventually you will find most of the chants have re-occuring patterns, rhythms, and that is a big help when memorizing.

The chanting will come. Especially if you have screamers at your temple :-)

[hookedondhamma]

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

[Para]

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Hookedondhamma if you have ANYTHING that is readable in what I consider 'real' English I would love a copy. If you odnt have any spare let me know where I can buy one. Its just so hard for me (remember I am an old dog and this is a VERY new trick for me) and the way Thai's pronounce P's as B's etc drives me crazy when trying to learn new chants. Its funny as I see the English translation but the pronunciation is all wrong from an English point.

I will PM you my address and I know you will be back soon my friend......

[hookedondhamma]

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Hookedondhamma if you have ANYTHING that is readable in what I consider 'real' English I would love a copy. If you odnt have any spare let me know where I can buy one. Its just so hard for me (remember I am an old dog and this is a VERY new trick for me) and the way Thai's pronounce P's as B's etc drives me crazy when trying to learn new chants. Its funny as I see the English translation but the pronunciation is all wrong from an English point.

I will PM you my address and I know you will be back soon my friend......

lol, I have access to much, and I have spares - lots of spares. I used to enjoy comparing the cycles of chants from this temple and that to see if there was a common pattern. Then I got to Bangkok and found out that's where it came from, lol. When I get back from Nongkhai I'll be sure to get it to you right away! By the way, it's ok to pronounce ภ and พ as 'B.' For Dhammayut chanting it's pretty standard. For Mahanikay, and those using the Thai-language Pali, the language shift will be apparent.

[Para]

lol, I have access to much, and I have spares - lots of spares. I used to enjoy comparing the cycles of chants from this temple and that to see if there was a common pattern. Then I got to Bangkok and found out that's where it came from, lol. When I get back from Nongkhai I'll be sure to get it to you right away! By the way, it's ok to pronounce ภ and พ as 'B.' For Dhammayut chanting it's pretty standard. For Mahanikay, and those using the Thai-language Pali, the language shift will be apparent.

But you can read Thai I still struggle with English!

I look forward to hearing from you when you get back.

Para

[Several]

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Ah thank you brother, but we have some unusual chanting here. I'm told almost no other monasteries do them ('Kang ta yang sou khang' is one and 'Parana sap sa pan yoo' is another.), and we chant them in a way created by a previous master which nobody outside our Sala ever does. I could use a transcription of the Sabittio chant done at ordinations. We have 'the away team' come from another monastery to chant and make up numbers but I always feel awkward that I can't join in. Tried recording it in my phone, but it doesn't help much. Ah well.

[Several]

So, the head monk and the Maha Thera were out today meaning I got to lead the chanting for the first time. Was actually asked to do so by one of the younger monks. Great joy. Though I'm not a big fan of chanting it is expected of us. I look at it to being simmilar to lighthouse keeping. Not knowing if there is a ship out there we keep the light on regardless. We beam merit rather than photons, but you catch my drift.

Number 2 monk carefully selects the smallest incense stick he can find and holds the lighter about halfway down it grinning. They are all grinning. I shrug and try to explain that size is no guarantee of longevity, but they see it is small and it is good and number two assumes I mean light it at the end like big monks do.

We begin.

I fumble through the Satya prayer. Nobody laughs. Excellent. I start chants out of order and unknown. Confused looks and frantic page flicking. Excellent. Now they are mindful. At what is usually the second last chant I observe the little incense stick. Halfway down. Blast.

I nod to number two and he also is dismayed. Plus its his fault. We continue. Neung chua toop, not keung brothers. Another twenty minutes of leg numbing, knee aching ting tong farang random chant selections and our duties are complete and I am happy.

But they learned. New chants. Expect the unexpected. You cannot judge the incense by its length. Never ask Phra Farang to lead the chanting.

Excellent.

[camerata]

Is this you, Several?

[Several]

He is one of my influences, yes. Along with Demis Russos and Snoop Dogg.

And I want little bells now. I'm going to speak to the abbot. Bells are cool.

[Several]

Seriously though our chants are in very old Thai with Pali words sprinkled throughout. I have an 'english' version which the others call karaoke, but I find that a bit odd as they admit not understanding it either. Like a westerner chanting Chaucer or Bede with the odd word in Aramaic.

The final chant starts; "Kan-ta yang sou-kang soh tin-yang..."

I am told it will be of absolutely no use anywhere else in Thailand as we don't even chant in the same way as the tiny percentage of Wats who do use these chants. Mai bpen rai.

[Para]

The final chant starts; "Kan-ta yang sou-kang soh tin-yang..."

Sounds familiar but hey they ALL sound familiar to me!

[hookedondhamma]

Thai has long and short vowels, over 10 in number. This is more oriented towards reading Thai pali in it's 'academic' form, so the number is far less.

I come from America, so please keep that in mind regarding some of the sounds. Another good thing to do would be to listen to those around you to match their pronunciation as best as you can.

1. There are 4 long vowels, and 'ay' which is also considered 'long' ā, e, ī, o, ū, & ay'

2. There are 3 short vowels - 'a, i, & u'

Both long and short 'a' can be pronounced like 'a' in army, or 'a' in father (if you are a stickler, the short a can also be pronounced like 'uh')

Both long and short 'i' can be pronounced like the 'ee' sound in 'thief' (if a stickler, the short i can also be pronounced as 'i' in 'sit')

Both long and short 'u' can be pronounced as the 'u' in 'true'

The long vowel 'e' is pronounced like the 'e' in 'better', and the long 'o' is pronounced like the 'o' in 'over'

'Ay' will come up later.

3. The good thing about reading Pali in Thai is that each consonant has an inherent 'a' sound, unless the vowel is changed (you'll see it above, below, before or after the letter). In English you'll see each vowel accounted for.

4. In Thai Pali there is a consonant that is exclusively used as a silent vowel. That is 'อ', and at the beginning of a word starting with a vowel, it will always be there. It is always coupled with a vowel.

These are the corresponding long and short vowel sounds with the inherent 'อ':

a อ i อิ u อุ

ā อา ī อี ū อู e เอ o โอ

*I'll be using the English 'academic' transcription system for Pali alongside, so there won't be much explanation of it as it'll be in direct comparison to the Thai 'academic' transcription.

For those with a music background, a short vowel could be considered a quarter note, a long vowel a half note. Or, a long vowel being held for 2 seconds with a short vowel being held as 1 (this is just a general comparison. Tempos vary among temples.)

Edited July 14, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[khaowong1]

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Hello HOD, I would like one of your chanting books also.. I will PM my address. I wonder why no ones has copied the little yellow book to the roman alphabet? It would be helpful. I have 2 chanting books. One is from the Thai Buddhist council in the US and the other is from Wat Saket. Both are helpful. But when chanting at the temple in Thailand, everyone follows the yellow book and I have to scramble sometimes finding the same chant in my book. AND.. my abbot, who I truly love, always makes me sit up front. He thinks it helps the younger monks to have a Phra Farang chanting to give them some moral support. Much like saying, if the old Phra Farang can do it, so can you,

[hookedondhamma]

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Hello HOD, I would like one of your chanting books also.. I will PM my address. I wonder why no ones has copied the little yellow book to the roman alphabet? It would be helpful. I have 2 chanting books. One is from the Thai Buddhist council in the US and the other is from Wat Saket. Both are helpful. But when chanting at the temple in Thailand, everyone follows the yellow book and I have to scramble sometimes finding the same chant in my book. AND.. my abbot, who I truly love, always makes me sit up front. He thinks it helps the younger monks to have a Phra Farang chanting to give them some moral support. Much like saying, if the old Phra Farang can do it, so can you,

Ah ok, so the yellow book it is. It shouldn't take me too long to romanise, though I have a hard time translating Thai to English, so I would more than likely leave out the Thai. I've noticed some of the info in the back can be found in the NakDhamm books as well.

I think back in the day it was held in high regard, but nowadays I don't see to much chanted out of it other than the morning, evening, house blessings and funeral chants (as well as the 'important' suttas).

When I was in Chiang Mai one of the monks gave me the pink version - the one of the North, complete with Lanna handwriting lessons (how cool is that). When I looked inside it was mainly the same, though I noticed the chants up there differed in the sets which were used.

But I'll get to that romanization right away. Let me know if you want it in digital or book form.