Bangkok's Airport Of Smiles In Crisis

[Dap]

@apetley :

Sorry for my ignorance but what's AJ stuff ?

"Inexpensive electrical goods."

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

Inexpensive French electrical goods ?

Btw, Don't you mean AV as in audio visual or am I back in the last century ?

More specifically, what does the "A" stand for and what does the "J" stand for? I'm really not trying to be a wise arse, am just curious as I've never heard of "AJ" stuff.

[dighambara]

Compare with U-Tapao which was built by Americans in record time - also on swamp land.

However, laderite was trucked to fill the swamp and the runway was built to US standards for thickness and reinforcement.

A common problem with construction - just watch any concrete project here and you see the mix is too lean, the pours are not deep enough, and reinforcement is often omitted, so cracks show up within a few months and rain readily washes off the top layer...

[Dap]

In my previous post I wasn't complaining.

I just meant to point out that the real purpose for swampy was to have a nice looking place where incoming and outgoing tourists would spend their mony. That's why I refered to it before as a shopping mall where customers FLY in and leave by cars.

Any other consideration....such as it's suitability a/nd/or efficency as an airport or even the safety of it's runways was always considered less important than it's revenue generating capacity.

Question: If swampy isn't a big fancy shopping mall with stores selling expensive high-end (and I say overpriced) luxury goods....then why is there that long walk through all those shops on both arrival and departure to and from the departure gates?

It's was, and still is, that "shopping is first priority" attitude that made swampy what it is.

I guess that's called "Capitalisim".

True - but they are selling the wrong stuff.

Who wants to buy a $5000 watch from a Bangkok airport? What are you going to do when it breaks, fly back to Bangkok to use the warrantee? Why would you buy a $3000 boss suit when you can get a better one taylor made for $500 in Bangkok. All that french makeup for women - I dont understand, is that stuff just a scam or what? I dont see Thai girls buying that shit and they look much nicer than farang munters

Theres no decent shops to buy books, travel accessories or anything you might actually need for your trip. Just a lot of designer stuff - and i hardly ever see people shopping in those shops. I wonder how much the rents are and if any shops turn a profit there. I got kicked out of a coffee shop there for using my laptop with my own aircard when they wanted to charge me for wifi i said i didnt need it. They then say i have to pay for wifi just to use my laptop there without using their wifi. Priks

Changi is the best airport ive ever been in. Soothing music, fish swimming in ponds, nice plants everywhere. Free cinema, Free wifi. BEDS to sleep in ad the departure gate. Brilliant.

You make it sound like me and the missus ought to head over to Changi to take in a movie rather than into the jungle of Bangkok

[Jawnie]

Does anyone else remember the early "lack of toilets" and "lack of seating" problems?

When there was only ONE male and ONE female toliet area for ALL passengers waiting in the check-in area?

And when there was only one seating area for your Thai family and friends to wait while you cheked in for your international flight?

I've seen my family wait for over two hours while I slowly shuffled toward the check-in booths in a queue for more than two hours just to check my one single bag.

I remember those days,

I remember too the Thai airport official....but unfortunately I can't recall his name now....who when asked about the lack of seating said,

"We don't want passengers to sit in this airport....we want them to be in the shops buying things instead of just sitting and waiting".

For once, perhaps unintentionally, he spoke the real truth about that airport.

That airport was designed and intended from the very beginning as an expensive shopping mall, not as an airport first. Selling expensive items to tourists was it's primary concern.

The profit, and the corruption and kickbacks were in the business of "arranging" the best locations for wealthy shop owners who coild and would pay for preferred shop locations.

That's where the money was...and that was the primary interest of airport officials who had the authority to "arrange" things.

The shops generated money for them....toilets, seating, and also safe and well-constructed runways DIDN'T make money for them.

That fact, right there, is at the heart of the problems with the airport today.

The same "seating issue" is in place with the train stations: MRT, BTS, Airport Link...no places to sit. Ugh!!!

[MEL1]

Question: If swampy isn't a big fancy shopping mall with stores selling expensive high-end (and I say overpriced) luxury goods....then why is there that long walk through all those shops on both arrival and departure to and from the departure gates?

It's was, and still is, that "shopping is first priority" attitude that made swampy what it is.

I guess that's called "Capitalisim".

What? Wot? Or wat?

Please name me an International Airport that doesn't sell high end luxury goods; such as Rolex, Cartier, Chanel, LV, and so on.

Please name an International airport that doesn't have a long walk/ horizontal track that takes you 1-2km, with get off points at each row of shops.

Every airport of importance Internationally caters for the elite regular fliers, so why do you pull out Suva as being extreme in this capacity?

If it's capitalism in Thailand, then it is at every International Airport in the world.

-mel.

Mel, just because there's a precedent doesn't make it good. Continual improvement is the name of the game. Just cos someone else effs up doesn't necessarily make them a good model. The core business of the airport is landings and takeoffs and moving people and goods in and out safely and efficiently, is it not? It's a (re-)distribution system. Suggest a focus on getting that right first, the rest is important, but secondary.

Sorry?

I wasn't the one talking about high end shops and the rest.

I think you need to read again.

-mel.

[Dap]

Several of us shared a rather lengthy discussion on the safety threats of a disintegrating runway in the original article's thread at Suvarnabhumi Airport Runway Crisis Deepens, http://www.thaivisa....-crisis-deepens … see posts #130 and #146 at http://www.thaivisa....s/page__st__125

The not so short summary:

• The failure described in the original article cited above sounds as a “punching” failure, which is a structural failure; not the micro-cracking in all concrete structures, due to the shrinkage to which all concrete is subject (designed for, expected and acceptable);
  
• A "punching" failure is likely a consequence of poor foundations and subsoil conditions, rather than a failure of the concrete runway slab itself, which is generally pretty burly stuff;
  
• Poor foundations and subsoil conditions would not generally be associated with bad engineering design, but more likely a consequence of construction defects;
  
• The construction defects of all kinds could occur, but defects that could cause failures as this would likely be expansion and contraction of the clayey soils upon which the runway is built, typical of marshlands in alluvial planes, as is the site selected for Suvarnabhumi Airport (the absolute worse soils upon which to build anything ... other than a swamp, of course);
  
• The unstable soil beneath the runway would be most likely caused by:
  
  • Defective fill materials;
    
  • Insufficient compaction of the fill materials; or,
    
  • Defective subsoil drainage system (installed to prevent underground water intrusion, which causes clayey soils to expand and contract with tremendous pressures);
    

  [*]A runway as this is unlikely to dramatically fail, as in the sinkholes into which some mistakenly imagine a landing aircraft would fall; it is more likely that whole slabs of the runway (in this case, a 60cm x 60cm slab) will separate from the monolithic slab, which is what runways are supposed to be; these fractured slabs would remain suspended, roughly in place (though structurally failed), by adjoining concrete to which it is connected by steel reinforcing bars placed in the concrete slab itself;

  [*]A risk occurs when the edges of the large cracks around the separated slab agitate against each other (due to wheel loads, or the unstable soils beneath pushing up and down), causing small chunks of concrete to break off;

  [*]These concrete chunks might be sucked into the engine intake at maximum takeoff thrust, or might be chipped into an engine intake by the front nose gear; modern jet engines are designed to take a whole frozen goose through the intake at full power, and puke it out the exhaust appearing as refried beans slammed through a spaghetti strainer at Mach 2; not sure how that works with concrete chunks, which are a bit harder than frozen goose beaks and eyeballs.

My fear is that failures as this, if they are the “punching” failures described in the original article, are not isolated, but merely the symptoms of widespread deficiencies beneath the runway structure -- the real problem; that the cracking could continue and eventually reduce the runway to a series of loosely connected floating concrete slabs producing a never-ending stream of concrete debris at their edges.

Paving over them at the surface with high-strength epoxy grout only conceals the failures, and does nothing to correct the underlying problem. This might not end soon.

Thank you Swillowbee. Very professional and educational post.

[ttelise]

Air port in crisis, politics in crisis, hotel guest in crisis, flood crisis, bombing crisis, border conflict crisis, children health crisis, Constitutional crisis, Thaskin visa crisis, King health crisis, salmonella, bird flue, denegue, hand/foot/mouth, threat of civil war crisis, and danger on road crisis.

Why not just say Thailand in crisis.

[kerryk]

Air port in crisis, politics in crisis, hotel guest in crisis, flood crisis, bombing crisis, border conflict crisis, children health crisis, Constitutional crisis, Thaskin visa crisis, King health crisis, salmonella, bird flue, denegue, hand/foot/mouth, threat of civil war crisis, and danger on road crisis.

Why not just say Thailand in crisis.

Because there is no hotel guest, flood, bombing, border, salmonella. bird flue, degegue, civil war crisis.

[Reasonableman]

Question: If swampy isn't a big fancy shopping mall with stores selling expensive high-end (and I say overpriced) luxury goods....then why is there that long walk through all those shops on both arrival and departure to and from the departure gates?

It's was, and still is, that "shopping is first priority" attitude that made swampy what it is.

I guess that's called "Capitalisim".

What? Wot? Or wat?

Please name me an International Airport that doesn't sell high end luxury goods; such as Rolex, Cartier, Chanel, LV, and so on.

Please name an International airport that doesn't have a long walk/ horizontal track that takes you 1-2km, with get off points at each row of shops.

Every airport of importance Internationally caters for the elite regular fliers, so why do you pull out Suva as being extreme in this capacity?

If it's capitalism in Thailand, then it is at every International Airport in the world.

-mel.

Mel, just because there's a precedent doesn't make it good. Continual improvement is the name of the game. Just cos someone else effs up doesn't necessarily make them a good model. The core business of the airport is landings and takeoffs and moving people and goods in and out safely and efficiently, is it not? It's a (re-)distribution system. Suggest a focus on getting that right first, the rest is important, but secondary.

Sorry?

I wasn't the one talking about high end shops and the rest.

I think you need to read again.

-mel.

I thought you were supporting this style of airport merchandising because it is common elsewhere. That's how it came across to me. If i misread, then my sincere apologies. anyway, the main idea i wanted to get across was that airports are primarily for passengers, planes and cargo, so it seems a good idea to get those systems into good order before the retail outlets. Cheers, RM.

[Scott]

Air port in crisis, politics in crisis, hotel guest in crisis, flood crisis, bombing crisis, border conflict crisis, children health crisis, Constitutional crisis, Thaskin visa crisis, King health crisis, salmonella, bird flue, denegue, hand/foot/mouth, threat of civil war crisis, and danger on road crisis.

Why not just say Thailand in crisis.

We could, but this thread is only about one crisis.

[techboy]

What is the problem here?

No planes have crash landed

and no planes have crashed on takeoff

I will tell you what the problem is. A lot of people yapping who do not know what the h_ll they are talking about.

[blackthorn2005]

The Bangkok Post reported that 3 mafias have divided up the airport.

My guess?

The Army.

The Police.

Relatives of the invisible hand.

red shirts.

Thaksin started it all off.

[QED]

@apetley :

Sorry for my ignorance but what's AJ stuff ?

"Inexpensive electrical goods."

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

Inexpensive French electrical goods ?

Btw, Don't you mean AV as in audio visual or am I back in the last century ?

More specifically, what does the "A" stand for and what does the "J" stand for? I'm really not trying to be a wise arse, am just curious as I've never heard of "AJ" stuff.

Just a cheap local brand name.

http://www.ajthai.com/th/about.aspx

[hansgruber]

Air port in crisis, politics in crisis, hotel guest in crisis, flood crisis, bombing crisis, border conflict crisis, children health crisis, Constitutional crisis, Thaskin visa crisis, King health crisis, salmonella, bird flue, denegue, hand/foot/mouth, threat of civil war crisis, and danger on road crisis.

Why not just say Thailand in crisis.

Finally a hub to call their own.

[Chalard]

51 million tourists per year ??? 139,700 /day just the 700 is 5 plane loads.

where are they all staying ?

the average plane has about 150 passengers... do the maths

Amazingingly popular Thailand according to TAT.

what aload of BS Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport pax up 15%, cargo up 2% in Jun-2012

Thailand's Bangkok Suvarnabhumi International Airport passenger numbers up 15% - traffic highlights for Jun-2012:

Passenger numbers: 4.0 million, +15.2% year-on-year;

Domestic: 915,427, +32.4%;

International: 3.1 million,+11.0%;

Cargo volume: 115,420 tonnes, +1.6%

Domestic: 3942 tonnes, -3.8%;

International: 111,478 tonnes, +1.8%;

Aircraft movements: 24,801, +10.3%;

Domestic: 6730, +23.5%;

International: 18,071, +6.1%.

Source http://centreforavia...jun-2012-164611

Yep, TAT love telling porky pies.

[Pseudolus]

Air port in crisis, politics in crisis, hotel guest in crisis, flood crisis, bombing crisis, border conflict crisis, children health crisis, Constitutional crisis, Thaskin visa crisis, King health crisis, salmonella, bird flue, denegue, hand/foot/mouth, threat of civil war crisis, and danger on road crisis.

Why not just say Thailand in crisis.

Finally a hub to call their own.

Indeed - quite a catchy one.

Thailand - Global Hub of deterioration and HiSo enrichment.

[SouthernMan3]

@apetley :

Sorry for my ignorance but what's AJ stuff ?

"Inexpensive electrical goods."

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

Inexpensive French electrical goods ?

Btw, Don't you mean AV as in audio visual or am I back in the last century ?

More specifically, what does the "A" stand for and what does the "J" stand for? I'm really not trying to be a wise arse, am just curious as I've never heard of "AJ" stuff.

I have no idea.

I guess we must wait for apetley's reply......

[voodoomagicman]

I blame the Italian Architect, also famous for that one hit wonder

Shaddup ya face

Joe Miaggi

'Its a nice a place, AAA shaddup ya face....I

[Chalard]

Several of us shared a rather lengthy discussion on the safety threats of a disintegrating runway in the original article's thread at Suvarnabhumi Airport Runway Crisis Deepens, http://www.thaivisa....-crisis-deepens … see posts #130 and #146 at http://www.thaivisa....s/page__st__125

The not so short summary:

• The failure described in the original article cited above sounds as a “punching” failure, which is a structural failure; not the micro-cracking in all concrete structures, due to the shrinkage to which all concrete is subject (designed for, expected and acceptable);
  
• A "punching" failure is likely a consequence of poor foundations and subsoil conditions, rather than a failure of the concrete runway slab itself, which is generally pretty burly stuff;
  
• Poor foundations and subsoil conditions would not generally be associated with bad engineering design, but more likely a consequence of construction defects;
  
• The construction defects of all kinds could occur, but defects that could cause failures as this would likely be expansion and contraction of the clayey soils upon which the runway is built, typical of marshlands in alluvial planes, as is the site selected for Suvarnabhumi Airport (the absolute worse soils upon which to build anything ... other than a swamp, of course);
  
• The unstable soil beneath the runway would be most likely caused by:
  
  • Defective fill materials;
    
  • Insufficient compaction of the fill materials; or,
    
  • Defective subsoil drainage system (installed to prevent underground water intrusion, which causes clayey soils to expand and contract with tremendous pressures);
    

  [*]A runway as this is unlikely to dramatically fail, as in the sinkholes into which some mistakenly imagine a landing aircraft would fall; it is more likely that whole slabs of the runway (in this case, a 60cm x 60cm slab) will separate from the monolithic slab, which is what runways are supposed to be; these fractured slabs would remain suspended, roughly in place (though structurally failed), by adjoining concrete to which it is connected by steel reinforcing bars placed in the concrete slab itself;

  [*]A risk occurs when the edges of the large cracks around the separated slab agitate against each other (due to wheel loads, or the unstable soils beneath pushing up and down), causing small chunks of concrete to break off;

  [*]These concrete chunks might be sucked into the engine intake at maximum takeoff thrust, or might be chipped into an engine intake by the front nose gear; modern jet engines are designed to take a whole frozen goose through the intake at full power, and puke it out the exhaust appearing as refried beans slammed through a spaghetti strainer at Mach 2; not sure how that works with concrete chunks, which are a bit harder than frozen goose beaks and eyeballs.

My fear is that failures as this, if they are the “punching” failures described in the original article, are not isolated, but merely the symptoms of widespread deficiencies beneath the runway structure -- the real problem; that the cracking could continue and eventually reduce the runway to a series of loosely connected floating concrete slabs producing a never-ending stream of concrete debris at their edges.

Paving over them at the surface with high-strength epoxy grout only conceals the failures, and does nothing to correct the underlying problem. This might not end soon.

Thank you Swillowbee. Very professional and educational post.

Back in 1993-4, there was an article in "The Nation" saying they were sand capping the whole area at B500/m3. I was building a golf course nearby & good quality sand was costing us B180/m3. Someone made a shirt load of money on just this aspect alone. But what quality sand was used, i don't know. If the sand was coarse, good. If it was fine sand, than that could be the cause of many a problem & especially if there is no drainage pipe coming from it.

[SouthernMan3]

@apetley :

Sorry for my ignorance but what's AJ stuff ?

"Inexpensive electrical goods."

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

Inexpensive French electrical goods ?

Btw, Don't you mean AV as in audio visual or am I back in the last century ?

More specifically, what does the "A" stand for and what does the "J" stand for? I'm really not trying to be a wise arse, am just curious as I've never heard of "AJ" stuff.

Just a cheap local brand name.

http://www.ajthai.com/th/about.aspx

Got it.

[Thai at Heart]

It isn't of any importance that there are equally as bad airports in the world, it is a matter of how many better?

It has improved immeasurably from the beginning. I went through there on the first day, so it was a case of the only way being up.

But it was such a grand opportunity, and it was missed to build a rally world class place. Accidents happen at the best airports on the world. If there us a basic structural issue with the runways, it isn't ever going to get better.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[insubterfuge]

I used this monster when it first opened.

My take on it is its too long of a walk to get to anywhere.

Regarding the runways, I have to say, if indeed substandard build was installed then the place needs to close those runways and start building new ones elsewhere .

Totally som nom na for govt and aot; its really the first punch in the gut gettin off the jetwalk and steppin in this place !

God forbid, an A 380 kickstand accident landing on one of them pot holes or cracks, sends that ship uncontrolled into a terminal crashing - that shuld about do it for Swampy, it'd be closed forever...

So Sad Smiley's

Edited July 14, 2012 by insubterfuge

[Reasonableman]

Air port in crisis, politics in crisis, hotel guest in crisis, flood crisis, bombing crisis, border conflict crisis, children health crisis, Constitutional crisis, Thaskin visa crisis, King health crisis, salmonella, bird flue, denegue, hand/foot/mouth, threat of civil war crisis, and danger on road crisis.

Why not just say Thailand in crisis.

Finally a hub to call their own.

Indeed - quite a catchy one.

Thailand - Global Hub of deterioration and HiSo enrichment.

Let's not omit LoSo enrichment, to be balanced, eh? ;-)

[jerrysteve]

The International News Papers should be carrying this news in every single paper. There needs to be travel warning pursuant to the dangers of the runways at that Airport.

Travel warnings should be posted in every single travel agency in every foreign country advising the high probability of a crashes, on the runways there.

Most importantly, major airline carries need to stop traveling to Thailand Period. especially since they could be looking at major insurance claims

from crashes.

Hit them in the pocketbook, hit the airlines in the pocket book...and lets see how long their smiles last.

The flow of money rules, so close the valve and lessen the flow...

This is what needs to be done.

And outside contractors from western countries by qualified contractors need to do the repairs.

[Reasonableman]

The International News Papers should be carrying this news in every single paper. There needs to be travel warning pursuant to the dangers of the runways at that Airport.

Travel warnings should be posted in every single travel agency in every foreign country advising the high probability of a crashes, on the runways there.

Most importantly, major airline carries need to stop traveling to Thailand Period. especially since they could be looking at major insurance claims

from crashes.

Hit them in the pocketbook, hit the airlines in the pocket book...and lets see how long their smiles last.

The flow of money rules, so close the valve and lessen the flow...

This is what needs to be done.

And outside contractors from western countries by qualified contractors need to do the repairs.

Hope you don't expect all that to happen overnight.... Or ever....

[jerrysteve]

Lets wipe their smiles and smirks off their faces, by having all major airlines stop flyi.ng. surely the deaths of their passengers and the insurance claims and a hike in their insurance rates should keep them from embarking on a high probability of crash and burn landings.

Western Regulators should be all over their Airlines prohibiting flights to Thailand under the current status of substandard runways.

I doubt the Thais would be smiling if that were to be done.

I can think of a few other way to Turn their smiles into frowns, but cutting off the tourists trade their in view and in light of dangers which exist

at the airport, would do for starters.

Granted runways do need to maintained by all airports, but they have to be well engineered and built with quality to begin with. You can't make chicken soup from chicken poop to begin with.

[Thai at Heart]

The International News Papers should be carrying this news in every single paper. There needs to be travel warning pursuant to the dangers of the runways at that Airport.

Travel warnings should be posted in every single travel agency in every foreign country advising the high probability of a crashes, on the runways there.

Most importantly, major airline carries need to stop traveling to Thailand Period. especially since they could be looking at major insurance claims

from crashes.

Hit them in the pocketbook, hit the airlines in the pocket book...and lets see how long their smiles last.

The flow of money rules, so close the valve and lessen the flow...

This is what needs to be done.

And outside contractors from western countries by qualified contractors need to do the repairs.

Hope you don't expect all that to happen overnight.... Or ever....

If Thai airways submits a complaint something might happen.

[Reasonableman]

They'll be asked if they'd like to move to Don Muang?

[preahko]

This just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy seeing as how I'm flying in on a new 590 ton Airbus A380 in 45 days.

Per Thai standard and regulation will it take a major disaster at Suvarnabhumi before these issues get addressed?

Yes; but you know that the disaster will not be their fault, it will be the fault of those stupid Farang that designed the place.

No, no, I have an even better one: any disaster will be farangs' fault because, if the farang never came to Thailand, the disaster never would have happened!

You laugh, but I have heard many a Thai use this logic, straight-faced, to explain why farang are ALWAYS at fault in traffic accidents, even if they're just a passenger in a taxi...

[Jobo]

Just departed thru the airport a few days ago and no problems leaving, thru immigration in about 15 min.., we where a bit late departing but the airplane arrived late. When I arrived from the Philippines earlier thru immigration in about 20 min no hassel. In the end all you can use to measure the airports preformance is your own experience.

Why are we getting off the plane and on to a bus to get to the terminal? Compared to Changi, Hong Kong, Incheon...it's a joke.

You get on a bus when you fly low cost airlines who want to keep fees to a minimum, pretty much like anywhere else.

So Thai Airlines is a low cost airline is it? I'd hate to be flying on an expensive airline then!