Visitor's Visa Refusal - Next Steps

[Peekasoo]

Hi

I'd appreciate any help in presenting a further application for a visitor's visa for my girlfriend to visit the UK following a refusal last autumn.

A bit of background. I've known my girlfriend for 28 months. During this time I've visited Thailand 12 times. For most of the time we've known each other she has had part time employment selling photographic packages in Bangkok shopping malls - the pay isn't particularly good but it was convenient employment and I was happy to give financial support. I understand that her daily pay ( see below ) is more than the minimum daily wage for Bangkok.In preparing the application we considered using the services of an agent as three acquaintancies of mine wanted to bring their girlfriends to the UK ( two visitors and one settlement visa) and they were using agents. However armed with the really useful information gleaned from this website we decided to handle the application independently. As my girlfriend was employed, her employer was happy to keep the position open during her absence and she had been abroad for a two week holiday ( not Europe) before and returned to Thailand I thought that this would count in her favour. Also, perhaps naively, I thought it was important to tell the truth in an application and was aware that agents can be very creative in preparing an application.

The application was duly presented and we waited 9 weeks for the interview ( I understand the interview waiting time is now much reduced).

All the documents were ok. The Entry Clearance Officer's grounds for refusal were :

" You are a single female. You have not previously visited Europe. Your bank balance is less than 10,500 baht ( under £150). You state that you are in receipt of financial support from your boyfriend. I acknowledge your evidence of employment but do not find it credible that any gainful employer would be willing to keep your position available for the sustained length ( 4 months) of your proposed trip to the United Kingdom. Even if they were I am not satisfied that your current earnings of 300 baht ( around £4) a day plus commission would constitute a pressing reason for

you to leave the UK at the end of your prolonged stay".

Our circumstances have changed from last December as my girlfriend had to leave her employment to take on caring responsibilities for her terminally sick mother.

So that's the position. Any thoughts on how to deal with the "pressing reason to return to Thailand " issue would be gratefully received.

By the way the three acquaintancies using the services of agents were all successful. None of the three girlfriends were employed !

Regards

Peekasoo

[the scouser]

Hi Peekasoo,

This might not be what you want to hear, but, from what you've posted, I think your g/f's circumstances have changed for the worse, rather than for the better. Now that she has no job and is, I presume, totally reliant upon you for financial support, the visa officer is even more likely to perceive her as having no incentive to return to Thailand at the end of her proposed holiday.

If you are intent on applying for the visa, then you should write a covering letter and dress up the length and depth of your relationship in an attempt to draw attention away from your g/f's lack of a reason to return. It's not guaranteed to work, but you have to give the positive aspects of the application as much weight as possible.

Is your g/f still taking care of her mother? If so, she will have to explain to the visa officer who is going to do the caring in her absence. Without wishing to be callous, the fact that the mother is sick does give your g/f some incentive to return to Thailand and it's just a matter of whether it's sufficient to satisfy the visa officer.

Scouse.

[apetley]

My sister in law has come over here on 2 VV's to see the wife.

Both times I think the Embassy were impressed by money in the bank and the fact she owned both land and the family home.

Sorry to say you have got to show a cast iron reason that she will be returning home.

Good luck.

[Peekasoo]

Thanks to The Scouser and Apetley for their prompt replies. Yes, I think its going to be an uphill struggle to be successful with a visitors visa but your suggestions have given me a base to work from so thanks once again.

Peekasoo

[spacebass]

I am sorry to say that now you have the little reject stamp in your ladies passport the investment you are likely to make in terms of time and effort and application fees is most unlikely to be cost efficient.

The reason given : "Even if they were I am not satisfied that your current earnings of 300 baht ( around £4) a day plus commission would constitute a pressing reason for you to leave the UK at the end of your prolonged stay". Clearly applies to every average Thai person and most of the rest of the world in fact, even though many of these people do get visas on the basis of some kind of sponsorship ( which i know legally is not a fait a complet), it is my view that the refusal substantially based on the above statement is in fact illegal as are very many ECO rulings, as it fails to take into account any other circumstances, and dismisses the nature of Thai society by ridiculing the offer to keep her job open as her job seems to a westerner as of no value, even though in Thai society it may be perfectly valid and worthy of being kept open. Just another case of your ECO having one to many drinks the night before and getting out of bed the wrong side, profoundly affecting your life, with no redress.

However as we know there is no appeal from this ruling and you as a British citizen having no doubt paid taxes all your life are branded in fact a criminal, 'by conspiring to make a fraudulent application for a UK visitors visa', though of course this fact is mitigated by all sorts of bs from the home office blurb, it remains a fact that this is their opinion.

I believe it is useful to use an agent, if you get the right one, because any apparently innocent statement you make on the application could in fact be interpreted as a reason not to give you a visa, and a good agent will know what not to say not easily gleaned from forums. Second time around with stamp in passport perhaps less certain.

Actually your best bet is your M.P. if enough people were to make a fuss perhaps the anarchy that is permitted to exist in the British Diplomatic Corps could be ended, after all we all paying for it and I would imagine stems from the Empire not modern day legal standards!

Edited January 17, 2006 by spacebass

[Peekasoo]

I am sorry to say that now you have the little reject stamp in your ladies passport the investment you are likely to make in terms of time and effort and application fees is most unlikely to be cost efficient.

The reason given : "Even if they were I am not satisfied that your current earnings of 300 baht ( around £4) a day plus commission would constitute a pressing reason for you to leave the UK at the end of your prolonged stay". Clearly applies to every average Thai person and most of the rest of the world in fact, even though many of these people do get visas on the basis of some kind of sponsorship ( which i know legally is not a fait a complet), it is my view that the refusal substantially based on the above statement is in fact illegal as are very many ECO rulings, as it fails to take into account any other circumstances, and dismisses the nature of Thai society by ridiculing the offer to keep her job open as her job seems to a westerner as of no value, even though in Thai society it may be perfectly valid and worthy of being kept open. Just another case of your ECO having one to many drinks the night before and getting out of bed the wrong side, profoundly affecting your life, with no redress.

However as we know there is no appeal from this ruling and you as a British citizen having no doubt paid taxes all your life are branded in fact a criminal, 'by conspiring to make a fraudulent application for a UK visitors visa', though of course this fact is mitigated by all sorts of bs from the home office blurb, it remains a fact that this is their opinion.

I believe it is useful to use an agent, if you get the right one, because any apparently innocent statement you make on the application could in fact be interpreted as a reason not to give you a visa, and a good agent will know what not to say not easily gleaned from forums. Second time around with stamp in passport perhaps less certain.

Actually your best bet is your M.P. if enough people were to make a fuss perhaps the anarchy that is permitted to exist in the British Diplomatic Corps could be ended, after all we all paying for it and I would imagine stems from the Empire not modern day legal standards!

[Peekasoo]

Hi Spacebass ( sorry I accidentally loaded your message by pressing the wrong button)

Thanks for your comments which certainly struck a chord with me.

My initial thoughts when I learnt of the refusal were that the decision could possibly be classified as discriminatory because my girlfriend had gainful and legitimate employment, her salary was above the legal minimum wage and she had a job to return to. Applying similar thought processes to others in a similar situation would, as you say, mean that most of the world's population are considered ineligible to visit the UK. Of course we know what the reality is...

My second thoughts were that the decision of the ECO appeared to be based on his "feel" for the situation. If I'm right then discrimination hasn't occured but prejudice may. While you can complain about discrimination when its about an organisations use of processes to distinguish unfairly against a person, you can't do much about prejudice which is about pre-conceived opinions that largely stay in someone's head. As the Foreign Office are subject to the same rules and regulations as other UK based government offices I did half-heartedly think of making a complaint on this basis but the time for that may now have passed...

As my acquaintancies successfully used agents and my girlfriends circumstances have changed I'll probably use an agent. I travel to Thailand next week and I'll discuss the situation with several before making a decision.

Regards

Peekasoo

[GU22]

I am sorry to say that now you have the little reject stamp in your ladies passport the investment you are likely to make in terms of time and effort and application fees is most unlikely to be cost efficient.

This statement is complete and utter rubbish. Many people have been refused a visa for whatever reason, dealt with the reason for refusal and been successful second time around.

Peekasoo, it is, of course, your choice as to whether you want to waste money by employing an agent, but remember; if she does not meet the criteria, then she will not get a visa; if she does meet the criteria, and proves it, then she will get a visa. No agent, no matter what they say or how much you pay them, can change that.

The way to deal with a refusal like this is to look at the reasons given by the ECO and to deal with them. From the part of the refusal notice you have quoted the ECO did not find your g/f credible, or at least the evidence of her employment credible. I have to agree. She was working part time on a mainly commission based wage; how many employers are going to keep a job like that open for 4 months? Irrelevant, now, anyway as she is no longer has the job.

As Scouse says, if she is going to use her sick mother as a reason to return then she is going to have to explain who will be looking after the poor woman while your g/f is away, and if there is someone who can look after her, what incentive will your g/f have to return?

At the end of the day it all comes down to trust. Many girls have obtained visit visas even though they have had no job purely because they came across as credible and trustworthy. Your g/f didn't. In many cases a visit visa is issued without an apparent reason to return because the ECO is satisfied that the relationship between sponsor and applicant is genuine and going to lead to marriage and so feels the couple would not want to jeopardise their future together by overstaying a visit visa. For some reason, the ECO wasn't convinced of this in your case. This is the area you need to address. Your g/f has no substantial reason to return to Thailand, so she will need to convince the ECO that she has more to lose personally by overstaying.

Edited January 17, 2006 by GU22

[Rj 81]

I have to agree with the point Spacebass made about your G/f's job.

Just because it doesn't pay well ect, doesn't mean that should be a reason to refuse.

Even if the job was well paid, if a Thai girl was going to over stay, then how much money she is on in Thailand would more than likely be less than what she could get in the UK through support/dodgy work whatever..

GU22, what you was saying about the ECO's decision being made on trust is correct, and I think this is what happens in alot of cases. However they make mistakes, alot, if trust and credibility are the real things they are looking for.

My G/f was refused a visit visa, our relationship is genuine, there is no way G/f would over stay the visa, theres no way I would let it happen. The ECO didn't see this, or didn't trust G/f or see any credibility in her. He was wrong, simple.

I think you contradicted yourself in the last paragraph of your post,

"At the end of the day it all comes down to trust. Many girls have obtained visit visas even though they have had no job purely because they came across as credible and trustworthy. Your g/f didn't. In many cases a visit visa is issued without an apparent reason to return because the ECO is satisfied that the relationship between sponsor and applicant is genuine and going to lead to marriage and so feels the couple would not want to jeopardise their future together by overstaying a visit visa. For some reason, the ECO wasn't convinced of this in your case. This is the area you need to address. Your g/f has no substantial reason to return to Thailand, so she will need to convince the ECO that she has more to lose personally by overstaying."

Maybe you didn't contradict yourself, it's just that the refusals given by the ECO and what they are really thinking don't match. If it all comes down to trust, why do the Embassy say they need a valid reason to return? How can someone distinguish between a trust worthy person and not in 2 hours? Takes some people a lifetime to figure other people out.

It is, at the end of the day a combination of the applicants hard evidence and the ECO's judgement (pre?) of the applicant.

[spacebass]

As long as there is no appeal outside the four walls of the pertinent Embassy building the refusal is made in, it is very obvious, as in any organisation, there will never be any proper discipline in the administration of visa appliactions by ECOs. It is clear that their opinions are simply not a good enough or reliable enough to be without any process of review. (And you can forget their boss as credible).

[Peekasoo]

Thanks to Spacebass for his further contribution and to GU22 to Rj 81 for theirs. This forum is a great place to canvass people on a difficult subject.

I think my conclusion is that being successful in the application process involves a mix of ingredients - evidence that the applicant has a need or desire to return to Thailand and other information to give the ECO confidence that the person in the application is credible and trustworthy. The former is fairly straightforward but the latter isn't because its subjective and affected by lots of variables - its more art than science !

My question to myself is whether my girlfriend and I have sufficient to close the credibility / trust gap, particularly in view of her changed circumstances or whether an agent with experience in shaping the supporting content of an application so that its acceptable to the way ECO's think is more likely to be successful....

Does anyone know whether there is a panel of ECO's at the embassy or is this a function done by one person - I guess the former ? Also what grade or pay band would an ECO normally be ( just so I can get a feel for where they are in the pecking order - I'm in government service myself).

Cheers.

Peekasoo

[rcalsop]

Thanks to Spacebass for his further contribution and to GU22 to Rj 81 for theirs. This forum is a great place to canvass people on a difficult subject.

I think my conclusion is that being successful in the application process involves a mix of ingredients - evidence that the applicant has a need or desire to return to Thailand and other information to give the ECO confidence that the person in the application is credible and trustworthy. The former is fairly straightforward but the latter isn't because its subjective and affected by lots of variables - its more art than science !

My question to myself is whether my girlfriend and I have sufficient to close the credibility / trust gap, particularly in view of her changed circumstances or whether an agent with experience in shaping the supporting content of an application so that its acceptable to the way ECO's think is more likely to be successful....

Does anyone know whether there is a panel of ECO's at the embassy or is this a function done by one person - I guess the former ? Also what grade or pay band would an ECO normally be ( just so I can get a feel for where they are in the pecking order - I'm in government service myself).

Cheers.

Peekasoo

I wish you the best of luck ..establishing credibilty with a consulate or Embassy can take a great deal of effort and imagination, yes there are rules and documents required but in the end it is the feel or the judgement of a person that governs the descision . When my Thai wife was pregnant and we were in another country I knew we would require some help in getting a birth certificate and a passport for my son we needed one very quickly . At about 6 months pregnant we started to visit the British Club based in the consulate grounds to introduce our selves , we also attended Thai functions at their embassy ...same reason I also cultivated the local government officials and went to some of their functions . Non of this was our scene but we took photos and learnt names and behaved well as a couple . After the baby was born ,infact the second day after the baby was born I took the baby and my poor wife to a special party for somthing like the (un named )countries independance celebration and took photos of each consular head holding the new baby ..all photos date settings on them .

The next day I started the birth certificate challenge and with the help of the photos and some names and correct documents we had 3 countries official birth registration certificates Thailand being 3 weeks the other two 2 days Uk and the other . Now comes the passports same approach simultanious applicatios with documentation have the phot story ready with some names Voila passports issued in one week . Now we could stop going to the bloody clubs .

On the other hand we once spent Christmas with a consular head and some staff from the American Embassy 4 days on a boat like the African Queen visiting the Mangrove swamps of the Sunderband eating and sleeping in close proximity we got to know each other well .. but two months later a visa application for a trip to Disney Land was refused for my wife because she did not have a local (ie that country )bank account nor did I so we could not prove that we would return from the states ..We had accounts in UK and thailand but the proof had to be an account in the country of application for the visa . After refusal it is always more difficult and at the time it was bloody expensive . We eventualy got a travel visa for the states when some basic sense and logic were applied plus me ranting raving ( not advisable inthe consular offices .)and the next week complaining to the two visiting Senators from the States who were visiting our factories and charitable works .. plus lunch.... 6 hours I was showing them around then a 5 minute request to help as they were leaving

The moral..... think work hard and make some luck for your self there are no rights or absolutes in this game .

Edited January 18, 2006 by rcalsop

[Peekasoo]

Thanks to Spacebass for his further contribution and to GU22 to Rj 81 for theirs. This forum is a great place to canvass people on a difficult subject.

I think my conclusion is that being successful in the application process involves a mix of ingredients - evidence that the applicant has a need or desire to return to Thailand and other information to give the ECO confidence that the person in the application is credible and trustworthy. The former is fairly straightforward but the latter isn't because its subjective and affected by lots of variables - its more art than science !

My question to myself is whether my girlfriend and I have sufficient to close the credibility / trust gap, particularly in view of her changed circumstances or whether an agent with experience in shaping the supporting content of an application so that its acceptable to the way ECO's think is more likely to be successful....

Does anyone know whether there is a panel of ECO's at the embassy or is this a function done by one person - I guess the former ? Also what grade or pay band would an ECO normally be ( just so I can get a feel for where they are in the pecking order - I'm in government service myself).

Cheers.

Peekasoo

I wish you the best of luck ..establishing credibilty with a consulate or Embassy can take a great deal of effort and imagination, yes there are rules and documents required but in the end it is the feel or the judgement of a person that governs the descision . When my Thai wife was pregnant and we were in another country I knew we would require some help in getting a birth certificate and a passport for my son we needed one very quickly . At about 6 months pregnant we started to visit the British Club based in the consulate grounds to introduce our selves , we also attended Thai functions at their embassy ...same reason I also cultivated the local government officials and went to some of their functions . Non of this was our scene but we took photos and learnt names and behaved well as a couple . After the baby was born ,infact the second day after the baby was born I took the baby and my poor wife to a special party for somthing like the (un named )countries independance celebration and took photos of each consular head holding the new baby ..all photos date settings on them .

The next day I started the birth certificate challenge and with the help of the photos and some names and correct documents we had 3 countries official birth registration certificates Thailand being 3 weeks the other two 2 days Uk and the other . Now comes the passports same approach simultanious applicatios with documentation have the phot story ready with some names Voila passports issued in one week . Now we could stop going to the bloody clubs .

On the other hand we once spent Christmas with a consular head and some staff from the American Embassy 4 days on a boat like the African Queen visiting the Mangrove swamps of the Sunderband eating and sleeping in close proximity we got to know each other well .. but two months later a visa application for a trip to Disney Land was refused for my wife because she did not have a local (ie that country )bank account nor did I so we could not prove that we would return from the states ..We had accounts in UK and thailand but the proof had to be an account in the country of application for the visa . After refusal it is always more difficult and at the time it was bloody expensive . We eventualy got a travel visa for the states when some basic sense and logic were applied plus me ranting raving ( not advisable inthe consular offices .)and the next week complaining to the two visiting Senators from the States who were visiting our factories and charitable works .. plus lunch.... 6 hours I was showing them around then a 5 minute request to help as they were leaving

The moral..... think work hard and make some luck for your self there are no rights or absolutes in this game .

Hi rcalsop

Thanks for your best wishes. What an experience - I certainly admire your commitment and stamina !!

Regards

Peekasoo

[silomfan]

This is a familiar story in so many posts. Average Thai girl meets UK citizen , starts relationship , UK citizen wants g/f (or b/f) or visit UK . Does the vv application and is refused because average Thai girl/boy has no or low paid job (very normal for Thai people)and thus no reason to return.

In replying to these stories there is always someone on this excellent forum who will say "you have to look at the reasons for refusal and address them " Many times it is GU22 but this is not a critisism of him , in many ways it is a compliment that he takes the time and trouble to reply. This forum is all the better for his input.

HOWEVER my question is how do you address them . ? He will say you didn't come over as credible , you have to address the problems surrounding reasons to return ....HOW?? How can this be done. If this girl has a low paid job the chances are that she will go through life in the same situation. Thats how it is in the real world. So how can that be addressed ?? It can't can it ? Secondly she hasn't shown a good reason to return.. that will never change . She will, like millions of Thais, never be able to show a good reason to return. So she (and everyone else in this position) can never be "credible" by the very nature of the circumstances of their life. So are they to be forever denied a visa ? Because that is what will happen if nothing changes. Is that fair?

I don't pretend to have the answers but there has to be a better and fairer way of dealing with decisions that affect peoples lives.

SILOMFAN

[GU22]

Silomfan, rather than have the same conversation in 2 different threads, I hope you don't mind if I post my response in Should The Rules Change For Visit Visa's?, British Embassy, which I feel is a better place for a general discussion.

[the scouser]

Having had a think about Peekasoo's predicament, he may wish to consider the following, although none is an easy answer.

1. Certainly reduce the period of the intended visit from 4 months to, perhaps, 4 weeks. I know 4 weeks is not long, but it's better than nothing and she can always return to the UK at a later date.

2. His g/f should get another job. I appreciate that this might be difficult if she is caring for her mother, but if she were able to find employment and increase her savings, this, coupled with a letter from her employer and a shorter visit might do the trick.

3. Failing point (2), present her sick mother as an incentive to return to Thailand. Provide medical evidence of the mother's condition and written details of who will be caring for the mother in his g/f's absence.

4. Failing all of the above, arrange to meet in a European country where the visa requirements for Thais are either not so stringent, or non-existent. This will then make the process of obtaining a UK visa more straightforward as the g/f will have developed a positive immigration history.

Scouse.

[iainiain101]

4. Failing all of the above, arrange to meet in a European country where the visa requirements for Thais are either not so stringent, or non-existent. This will then make the process of obtaining a UK visa more straightforward as the g/f will have developed a positive immigration history.

Scouse

Which European countries are not so stringent or non existant for Thais to enter?

Iain

[the scouser]

There have been various threads about the countries for which Thais don't need visas, so a search should be a starting point. I do vaguely recall, however, that Thais either don't need a visa for Russia , or are soon not to need one. Other than that, Peekasoo could investigate the possibilities of getting visas for those European countries which are currently not EU members.

Scouse.

[silomfan]

As usual good advice from the scouser ,... but wait a minute. This thread is all about someone in a long term relationship . All he wants to do is to bring his g/f to the UK for a holiday (btw 4 months is too long.. as scouse says 4 weeks is more reasonable) . Yet we are talking about her having to change her job , get all sorts of proof about caring for her sick mother , and even meeting in another country !! I mean .. come on , they are not asking for the crown jewels here , just a vv. Why should they have to jump through all these hoops just so his g/f can come to see the UK? Answer, because despite having a proveable relationship and no immigration history to count against her , she is at the mercy of the mood of the ECO on the day who determines credibility by an arbitrary test.

I won't go on as this is a similar situation to another current thread . Writing to(or going to see if you are in the UK) your local MP will give you some outlet for your frustration and if enough people bother their MP (and do e-mail UK Visas as well .. they are quite responsive) then something will get done because the MP's don't want their monthly surgeries to be clogged up with people complaining about immigration problems and British Embassys high handed behaviour. If you push them they will write to the Home Office minister and again the HO don't want to be spending their time replying to disgruntled MP's. You have a voice ... use it

SILOMFAN

[Peekasoo]

Thanks to the scouser for taking the time to consider my situation further and to Silomfan for his comments about the system whiuch I'm sure will echo with many on this board.

I'm travelling to Thailand next week and will ponder on the posts with my girlfriend. I earlier considered the possibility of applying for another EU country & meeting up with her there - Rep of Ireland being the best candidate where my girlfriend has a friend who is married and works in a Thai restaurant. I may need to think through this again but it is really frustrating when you consider all the trials & tribulations that ordinary honest Thai people have to go through to enjoy a holiday in the Uk while others from less stable parts of the world appear .....enough said !!

Regards to all

Peekasoo

PS I don't recall anyone replying to my question about the pay band of the ECO's ?

[the scouser]

Hi Peekasoo,

I missed your previous question about the ECO's payband and how many there are in a given embassy.

Generally speaking, an ECO is a DS9 (Diplomatic Service grade 9) and an ECM is a DS7. I'm a bit out of touch with pay scales now, but would wager that a DS9 is paid between £18,000 and £25,000 p.a. They get extra money from the various expenses. If they are in post for 4 months or less they receive subsistence, the level of which is dependent upon how "difficult" the post is. When I was in the Philippines it was c. £70 per day. For any posting over 4 months they receive Cost of Living Allowance (COLA) which is less than the subsistence rate but they then get free accommodation thrown in, and that is where they profit - by renting out their UK property. Whereas they remain liable for income tax, after 1 year they don't need to pay NI contributions, although their "stamp" is still credited. However, it always pissed off the Foreign Office staff that the Immigration Service secondees were better paid than they were (an IO scale is now roughly 20,000 to 30,000).

The number of ECOs per mission depends upon its size. I would guesstimate that Bangkok has 4-5 ECOs whereas Islamabad might have 15, and somewhere like Oslo will have 1 for example.

[Peekasoo]

Hi Scouse

Thanks for the information about the payband of ECO's. In salary terms the DS9 is broadly equivalent to a PB3 in the bit of gov't I'm in. Handy to know should I need to contact the Embassy.

Regards

Peekasoo