Fake Document Got Abhisit His Military Job, Defence Ministry Says

phiphidon · July 22, 2012

Whereas Thaksin is a paragon of truth and virtue and loves democracy. Wake up man, it is truly pathetic.

Did I say he was? Go back to sleep, it's better for everybody.

OzMick · July 22, 2012

"the despotic PTP fascist mafia government that is in power this year"

PT 53

A lot of '12 to go yet. I await the CC decision to disband PTP for use of banned politicians in its election campaign and the nomination of candidates facing serious criminal charges, the latter as a reward for criminal acts and a means to avoid facing those charges.

Arkady · July 22, 2012

Abhisit is one of the best of truly rotten bunch. He seems to have been caught out lying here again, as in his citizenship issue, but Thai voters seem to appreciate liars, cheats, thieves and murderers. So this should boost his popularity and make him appear more street wise.

I wonder how many male Thai MPs hold fake conscription exemption papers that they paid hard cash for. I would bet more than 50%.

metisdead · July 22, 2012

Nonsense posts have been removed.

Ron19 · July 22, 2012

"the despotic PTP fascist mafia government that is in power this year"

PT 53

A lot of '12 to go yet. I await the CC decision to disband PTP for use of banned politicians in its election campaign and the nomination of candidates facing serious criminal charges, the latter as a reward for criminal acts and a means to avoid facing those charges.

Do you think the previous government was any better with one prominent banned politician playing a key role in getting them elected.There was even one photo of the newly elected prime minister and this person together. Edited July 22, 2012 by Ron19

OzMick · July 22, 2012

A lot of '12 to go yet. I await the CC decision to disband PTP for use of banned politicians in its election campaign and the nomination of candidates facing serious criminal charges, the latter as a reward for criminal acts and a means to avoid facing those charges.

Do you think the previous government was any better with one prominent banned politician playing a key role in getting them elected.There was even one photo of the newly elected prime minister and this person together.

I KNOW it wasn't as blatant. There are 2 cases to answer - do you think the Democrats put forward accused criminals?

carra · July 22, 2012

A lot of '12 to go yet. I await the CC decision to disband PTP for use of banned politicians in its election campaign and the nomination of candidates facing serious criminal charges, the latter as a reward for criminal acts and a means to avoid facing those charges.

Do you think the previous government was any better with one prominent banned politician playing a key role in getting them elected.There was even one photo of the newly elected prime minister and this person together.

I KNOW it wasn't as blatant. There are 2 cases to answer - do you think the Democrats put forward accused criminals?

Ah so now accused criminals are criminals, innocent until proven guilty etc.

I could of course mention suthep, kasit et al, not to mention the mp for samut sakhirn with his murder charge drawing absolutely no response from abhisist,

But back to the subject in hand, abhsits lies and deceit.

Ron19 · July 22, 2012

A lot of '12 to go yet. I await the CC decision to disband PTP for use of banned politicians in its election campaign and the nomination of candidates facing serious criminal charges, the latter as a reward for criminal acts and a means to avoid facing those charges.

Do you think the previous government was any better with one prominent banned politician playing a key role in getting them elected.There was even one photo of the newly elected prime minister and this person together.

I KNOW it wasn't as blatant. There are 2 cases to answer - do you think the Democrats put forward accused criminals?

I'm glad that you said accused,but at that stage was not found guilty.

chuang · July 22, 2012

So who is caught whith his hand in the cookie jar....

PhilipCook · July 22, 2012

the usual suspects spend too much time in the hot seats, time to bait the media to look at other 'news'. draft dodging happens everywhere, far be it from eite types here(or anywhere) to avoid conscription. the antics here remind me of WWf back home, when it gets too dull in the ring, they bring in more players. if they want to shift focus, why not review the status of news events of the recent past, ie the Santika fire, the texting driver who caused the deaths of TU students in a vehicle she crashed into.

whybother · July 22, 2012

So who is caught whith his hand in the cookie jar....

Who?

binjalin · July 22, 2012

A lot of '12 to go yet. I await the CC decision to disband PTP for use of banned politicians in its election campaign and the nomination of candidates facing serious criminal charges, the latter as a reward for criminal acts and a means to avoid facing those charges.

Do you think the previous government was any better with one prominent banned politician playing a key role in getting them elected.There was even one photo of the newly elected prime minister and this person together.

I KNOW it wasn't as blatant. There are 2 cases to answer - do you think the Democrats put forward accused criminals?

Ah so now accused criminals are criminals, innocent until proven guilty etc.

I could of course mention suthep, kasit et al, not to mention the mp for samut sakhirn with his murder charge drawing absolutely no response from abhisist,

But back to the subject in hand, abhsits lies and deceit.

ahhh Suthep - that paragon of virtue, the right-hand man of Abhisit, a role model for aspiring DPM's not a jot on his character

animatic · July 22, 2012

ahhh who cares?

it doesn't matter to people on here what golden boy abhisit has ever done.

it makes no difference, he's still the shining example of honesty and integrity and all that's right with thai politics... amirite guys, who's with me?

high five.

I bet that we soon see a polling agency telling us that 67% of the Thai people agreeing with the "Golden Boy". The fact that they poll in 12 to 22 provinces only and in and around the elitist strongholds only and extrapolate the outcome to 76 provinces well be happily overlooked. The people on this forum will claim that rural people and city folks in the provinces are dumb and corrupted, showing their infinite ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Except the PTP doesn't win 100% in it's strongest strongholds either.

They one a delegates race, but far from 50% of the national adult population,

they won a larger minority of those who weren't too filled with ennuie,

apathy,

dejection,

depression,

dissatisfaction,

doldrums,

dumps,

fatigue,

ho-hums,

lack of interest,

languidness,

languor,

lassitude,

listlessness,

melancholy,

sadness,

satiety,

spiritlessness,

surfeit,

tedium,

weariness,

to actually go out and vote.

Edited July 22, 2012 by animatic

Noistar · July 22, 2012

Guys,

If you have been here any length of time, you certainly know of similar situations...

My wife's original Birth Certificate was lost in a house fire - the legal & official replacement is incorrect.

A friend, born here. legally adopted by his foreign father and raised abroad, has provided certified copies to regain his Thai

citizenship, but no local records can be found...

My oldest son's records have the date the birth was registered as his official birthday, an error of a few weeks...

Yes, i heard that answer "mai mii (no have)" quite often. It translates as i don't know where it could be and/or i am too

lazy to looking/searching for it.

In most cases the thing i was requesting was available, just needed some little more afford to get or to access it.

My wife's ID is one year out because her parents didn't register her birth - the same situation with someone else I met. Bearing in mind the relatively few Thais I know, what proportion of Thai nationals have correct birth certificates/IDs?

Perhaps documentation isn't a Thai strong-point. Perhaps it's not an issue until.............

Remember these immigration cards you fill out. They are all kept and stored somewhere and someone is busy to record all the data into a book.

In Thailands bureaucracy is obsessed with paperwork, employs thousands of people for wearing fancy uniform in office and doing nothing else then to shuffle that kind of paperwork and documents.

Everything is somewhere archived. And before they will destroy some of the older files they will rather make additional copies of it.

The issue is to access these archives. Non of the clerks while busy with shuffling some documents likes to leave his desk and goes down to the archive. And if you are just an average Somchai and speak to the person at the office whos sole responsibility is to put a stamp on everything you will get mai mii as answer to a specific request.

But Abhisit isn't the average Somchai and they where probably looking longer than just five minutes for his files before they concluded: mai mii.

Remember Immigration Documents - how can I forget?

A friend of mine once observed that Thai Government officials stamp everything in sight. It was his light-hearted opinion that anything they didn't hand back went straight into re-cycling!

I'm not convinced that the Thais log everything. If they do, this current post seems to show a flaw in their retrieval system.

Do the Police keep their records on an iPhone somewhere? I am led to believe that they have developed policing methods which allow them to reduce documentation to a minimum

rubl · July 22, 2012

Ah so now accused criminals are criminals, innocent until proven guilty etc.

I could of course mention suthep, kasit et al, not to mention the mp for samut sakhirn with his murder charge drawing absolutely no response from abhisist,

But back to the subject in hand, abhsits lies and deceit.

ahhh Suthep - that paragon of virtue, the right-hand man of Abhisit, a role model for aspiring DPM's not a jot on his character

I'm positivily amazed and pleasantly surprised how the move from "abhsits lies and deceit" to "ahhh Suthep" is done with such a fluent movement and elegancy. Masterly! Bravo, surely you must be a native English speaker

Edited July 22, 2012 by rubl

binjalin · July 22, 2012

Ah so now accused criminals are criminals, innocent until proven guilty etc.

I could of course mention suthep, kasit et al, not to mention the mp for samut sakhirn with his murder charge drawing absolutely no response from abhisist,

But back to the subject in hand, abhsits lies and deceit.

ahhh Suthep - that paragon of virtue, the right-hand man of Abhisit, a role model for aspiring DPM's not a jot on his character

I'm positivily amazed and pleasantly surprised how the move from "abhsits lies and deceit" to "ahhh Suthep" is done with such a fluent movement and elegancy. Masterly! Bravo, surely you must be a native English speaker

do you actually 'get it'? maybe not...

rubl · July 22, 2012

Ah so now accused criminals are criminals, innocent until proven guilty etc.

I could of course mention suthep, kasit et al, not to mention the mp for samut sakhirn with his murder charge drawing absolutely no response from abhisist,

But back to the subject in hand, abhsits lies and deceit.

ahhh Suthep - that paragon of virtue, the right-hand man of Abhisit, a role model for aspiring DPM's not a jot on his character

I'm positivily amazed and pleasantly surprised how the move from "abhsits lies and deceit" to "ahhh Suthep" is done with such a fluent movement and elegancy. Masterly! Bravo, surely you must be a native English speaker

do you actually 'get it'? maybe not...

First of all let me thank you for your kind reply and secondly for your concern I might not 'get it'.

I do understand the topic is about k. Abhisit allegedly having used a fake/forged document, or is it just that he got a copy with possibly a wrong date? Well, one must be willing to accept that around 1988 records keeping in Thailand was not fully automated yet. I'd be the first to agree that things definitively have improved over the years. I even had a yearly visa renewal done in less than 20 minutes at Chamchuri Square. Imagine.

I may have wondered off topic a wee bit here. To return, apart from innuendo, suggestions and hearsay, it seems there is a lack of clear details and obviously [sic] the MoD doesn't want to publish too many facts for fear of politisizing the issue. All is given in the hands of the Ombudsman for further deliberation. May he show un-Thai speed in this

Puccini · July 22, 2012

I am trying to figure out what we are discussing here. At the risk of being wrong I assume that it is the news article in the first post of this thread.

According to the headline the Defense Ministry says that Abhisit got his military job with the help of a fake document.

Question: When did he get this job?
Answer (in the body of the article): After Abhisit graduated from Oxford University. No information about the graduation year or the year of his job application available on The Official Abhisit Vejjajiva Website or his biography on the Thai government website, except that it was prior to 1992.
Question: What is the alleged fake or falsified document?
Answer: Abhisit's military conscription document on the government form Sor Dor 9.
Question: Is the document fake or falsified?
Answer: The news article does not say. It uses both terms.
Question: If the document is fake, who created it?
Answer: The news article does not say.
Question: If the document is falsified, who issued the genuine document and who falsified it afterwards?
Answer: The news article does not say.
Question: Why is the document allegedly fake or falsified?
Answer: The Defense Ministry says it is so because because it is a duplicate of the original that was reported lost and this duplicate states that Abhisit was exempted from military service and was enlisted as a reserve officer on April 8, 1988, whereas in the records at the Conscription Registrar's Office, the date of enlistment was stated as July 4, 1986.
Question: Which of the two dates is the correct date of Abhisit's exemption from military service and enlistment as a reserve officer?
Answer: The news article does not say. According to his biography, Abhisit was born in August 1964, which means that in July 1986 his age was 21 years and 11 months, in April 1988 it was 23 years and 8 months.
Question: What difference does it make which date is correct?
Answer: The Defense Ministry says that in July 1986 Abhisit was not elibible for exemption from military service because at that time he was not studying, and therefore he should not have used the duplicate document showing the date of April 1988 for his application for a military job.
Question: What was Abhisit doing in July 1986?
Answer: Neither the news article nor Abhisit's biography has this information.
Question: Who decided, allegedly in July1986, to exempt Abhisit from military service, which led to the corresponding entry in the records at the Conscription Registrar's Office?
Answer: The news article does not say.
Question: If Abhisit had not lost his original conscription document and if that document showed that he was exempted from military service and enlisted as a reserve officer in July 1986, would that have disqualified him from the job for which he applied?
Answer: The news article does not say.

A lot of questions, but few answers. Where is an investigative journalist when you need one?

davidstipek · July 22, 2012

lets count the posts until someone tries to compare this matter with something totally irrelevant that thaksin has done to try and justify abhists actions. i am sure it will be on this page.

I'm also glad that FINALLY they got something on Abhisit.

Should we say "Thank you, Thaksin??"

geriatrickid · July 22, 2012

lets count the posts until someone tries to compare this matter with something totally irrelevant that thaksin has done to try and justify abhists actions. i am sure it will be on this page.

I'm also glad that FINALLY they got something on Abhisit.

Should we say "Thank you, Thaksin??"

More likely someone in the military settling accounts. Keep in mind that at the height of the Bangkok troubles regular force commanders were pushed aside and the operation handed off to Royal Guards and the small cadre of officers that are all linked to their past or ongoing service in Royal Guard units, with key commanders from the Queens Guard units. Royal Guard related service has always been a ticket to advancement in the military while service in the other units has never been quite as lucrative. There was considerable push back from the junior officer corps and the rank and file about the use of violence. The military was divided at the time of the Bangkok operation. Therefore, I do not think it is implausible that someone in the military made sure that the documents found their way to someone that would use them to embarrass Mr. Abhisit. One need only look at military scandals that have been exposed elsewhere: It is usually someone on the inside leaking documents.

geriatrickid · July 22, 2012

...But Mark falsification of govt doc to get a job, we should close one eye...

I can't find anything in the news article about Abhisit having falsified a document. Can you?

If I lose a document issued by a government agency I go to the same agency and apply for a duplicate. Is it my fault if the duplicate then contains wrong information, eg a wrong date?

On two occasions, six years apart, I needed to get my birth certificate from the municipal office of the Swiss town where my birth was registered. They both show the same birth date, but the first one has my time of birth as one thirty, the other as twelve forty-five. Am I guilty of falsifying a document?

In Thailand, as in other jurisdictions it is illegal to present a false document as a real one, and it is also illegal to use the information from a false document on any official application. If indeed the document dates are incorrect, the issue in this case is whether or not this change in dates was a legitimate error or if the dates were intentionally falsified, or at best, only a tacit acceptance of false information which was then used for personal benefit.

Even if the document was issued in error, the onus was on Mr. Abhisit to have taken measures to correct the document or to state that there was an inaccuracy. If he knowingly used the document to obtain his "personal gain", he has a legal problem. The issue in law is not whether the document was false, but rather if a known false document was presented as a real one. Mr. Abhisit will be held to a higher standard because of his education and background. It is no different than a lawyer that contravenes the law or an accountant that misrepresents on a tax filing. In this case, with his superior education and knowledge of how service worked,Mr. Abhisit would have a difficult time pleading ignorance.

In respect to your Swiss document example, if you used the incorrect documents for personal benefit, the personal benefits can be taken away as they were gained under false circumstances. You are also liable for any third party damages that arose because of a knowing misuse of the false information. If this wasn't the case, then many of the laws that apply on false documents would be invalid, wouldn't they?

Edited July 22, 2012 by geriatrickid

davidstipek · July 22, 2012

I am trying to figure out what we are discussing here. At the risk of being wrong I assume that it is the news article in the first post of this thread.

According to the headline the Defense Ministry says that Abhisit got his military job with the help of a fake document.

Question: When did he get this job?
Answer (in the body of the article): After Abhisit graduated from Oxford University. No information about the graduation year or the year of his job application available on The Official Abhisit Vejjajiva Website or his biography on the Thai government website, except that it was prior to 1992.

Question: What is the alleged fake or falsified document?
Answer: Abhisit's military conscription document on the government form Sor Dor 9.

Question: Is the document fake or falsified?
Answer: The news article does not say. It uses both terms.

Question: If the document is fake, who created it?
Answer: The news article does not say.

Question: If the document is falsified, who issued the genuine document and who falsified it afterwards?
Answer: The news article does not say.

Question: Why is the document allegedly fake or falsified?
Answer: The Defense Ministry says it is so because because it is a duplicate of the original that was reported lost and this duplicate states that Abhisit was exempted from military service and was enlisted as a reserve officer on April 8, 1988, whereas in the records at the Conscription Registrar's Office, the date of enlistment was stated as July 4, 1986.

Question: Which of the two dates is the correct date of Abhisit's exemption from military service and enlistment as a reserve officer?
Answer: The news article does not say. According to his biography, Abhisit was born in August 1964, which means that in July 1986 his age was 21 years and 11 months, in April 1988 it was 23 years and 8 months.

Question: What difference does it make which date is correct?
Answer: The Defense Ministry says that in July 1986 Abhisit was not elibible for exemption from military service because at that time he was not studying, and therefore he should not have used the duplicate document showing the date of April 1988 for his application for a military job.

Question: What was Abhisit doing in July 1986?
Answer: Neither the news article nor Abhisit's biography has this information.

Question: Who decided, allegedly in July1986, to exempt Abhisit from military service, which led to the corresponding entry in the records at the Conscription Registrar's Office?
Answer: The news article does not say.

Question: If Abhisit had not lost his original conscription document and if that document showed that he was exempted from military service and enlisted as a reserve officer in July 1986, would that have disqualified him from the job for which he applied?
Answer: The news article does not say.

A lot of questions, but few answers. Where is an investigative journalist when you need one?

Questions 1 - 11 Let's see some Honest answers to these reasonable Questions. If High Court is to review this issue, they will need these answers.... and a whole lot more!!

If you can't answer then Drug the "Witch Hunt!" you are wasting everyones time and by the way,,, Thailand's Money! It is stupid accusations like this that waste Thai Baht! Unless tea money increases value... If this is a major crime, God Forbid.... that any of the Students at the Military University.... ever ammounted to anything! (This is what you are implying) Come on! its July not October... Halloween is a Long way Off!!!!

I still am proud to call Abhisit My Friend!

When you request government form Sor Dor 9, it is issued from what Agency, same when Duplicate was issued... how do we know it was not a copy of original Data... Who chose to enter wrong Data because they did not want to look it up! I think if you are interested in researching this issue, Look at original entry and who signed off on it... Then look at request for Duplicate and who signed off on it and had it delivered to Abhisit.... This would be your culprit!!

David

rubl · July 22, 2012

^ #278 geriatrickid (sorry, still in opera browser which doesn't like the TV frontend)

"Even if the document was issued in error, the onus was on Mr. Abhisit to have taken measures to correct the document. If he knowingly used the document to obtain his exemption, he has a legal problem."

You probably only meant that k. Abhisit on possibly recognizing the issued document wa incorrect should have gone back to get a corrected one? I assume you'e not suggesting k. Abhisit should have taken out his pen and crossed out / corrected the offending date.

Anyway k. Abhisit knowingly use said document which is not the same as knowingly used an 'incorrect' document. So all this is still speculation.

BTW I'm still wondering about the term of limitation which wouldmight effect the 'legal problem' k. Abhisit might be in.

Edited July 22, 2012 by rubl

moe666 · July 22, 2012

The PTP supporters are happy, they finally got something on Mark, even though it wasn't murder it will do and it helps them to justify there support of an on going criminal conspiracy.

rubl · July 22, 2012

It is interesting to read that in the USA James Eagan Holmes is described in newspapers as "shooting suspect", where as in Thailand with an allegedly fake document k. Abhisit ... ...

My dear Dutch treat, Thailand also features photo opportunities where an accused is dutifully posed with alleed victims and police officers pointing. We also have re-enactments of crimes that resemble 3 Stooges shorts. And yes I agree, one should be presumed not guilty until proven guilty. However, Thailand is special, just like you.

Dear gKid, a bit of a hassle, but I just switched from opera to firefox as your gracious reply deserves an equally gracious response. Luckily no-one saw my blush reading 'special, just like you'. Normally it's only my mother who manages that digging out the old family album with the baby photos

Having said all that, I fully agree 'innocent till proven guilty' which may not be quiet the same as 'presumed not guilty untill proven guilty'. There are times I wonder how much more adequadly I'd be able to express myself if only I'd be born a native English speaker

Edited July 22, 2012 by rubl

newermonkey · July 23, 2012

I wonder how many falsified documents Taksin and his cronies have passed as real in thair time, because lying, cheating and steeling to them is natural. Abisit was obviously only doing what all Thais do,being cleaver and using his influential pears.

carra · July 23, 2012

I wonder how many falsified documents Taksin and his cronies have passed as real in thair time, because lying, cheating and steeling to them is natural. Abisit was obviously only doing what all Thais do,being cleaver and using his influential pears.

So you accuse Thaksin and his people of doing it because they lie, cheat and steal (not steel), but Abhsist does it and is seen as being clever (not cleaver) and using his influential peers (not pears).

This must be sarcasm.

chotthee · July 23, 2012

The PTP supporters are happy, they finally got something on Mark, even though it wasn't murder it will do and it helps them to justify there support of an on going criminal conspiracy.

And DEM was happy, they finally got something on Samak, even though it wasn't murder it will do and it helps them to justify the sacking of a PM for doing cooking shows.

Samak was sacked for perjury. Bad timing on his part, as it seems it is no longer an offense for the PM to commit perjury.

So if Mark somehow became PM again (possibly via another coup), it is OK for Mark to commit perjury now, as it no longer an offense.

chotthee · July 23, 2012

I was an honest mistake.

Possibly when Mark's father bought the paper (Sor Dor 9 or what ever), he forgot to check that the dates on its was unrealistic.

Why is it so hard for the poor Thai people to accept that buying such document by the rich Chinese is a common practice; and the going rate is between 20,000 baht to 40,000 baht.

It meant no harm. Thailand needs the kids of rich Chinese to serve as merchants rather than soldiers, even in time of war.

Reasonableman · July 23, 2012

I was an honest mistake.

Possibly when Mark's father bought the paper (Sor Dor 9 or what ever), he forgot to check that the dates on its was unrealistic.

Why is it so hard for the poor Thai people to accept that buying such document by the rich Chinese is a common practice; and the going rate is between 20,000 baht to 40,000 baht.

It meant no harm. Thailand needs the kids of rich Chinese to serve as merchants rather than soldiers, even in time of war.

Sad to see the bilious envy and blatant racism oozing from your posts. Is that really the best you can do?

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