Political Conflict Shifts To Hague Court

[Lite Beer]

LEGAL CLAIMS

Political conflict shifts to Hague court

The Nation on Sunday

BANGKOK: -- War on drugs, 2010 crackdown targets of rival lawsuits

The opposition Democrat Party and the ruling Pheu Thai Party have intensified their political rivalry by taking domestic criminal and political cases to the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague.

The Democrat Party has called on those adversely affected by the war on drugs policy implemented during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration to file a class-action lawsuit against the fugitive former premier at the court.

Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut said party-list MP Kasit Piromya on Friday filed a complaint at the ICC in the Netherlands over the war on drugs, which allegedly led to the "silencing" killings of thousands of drug suspects.

Chavanond said those who believed they were damaged parties and had not received justice in connection with the policy should come forward to join the class-action lawsuit against Thaksin.

Thaksin's anti-drugs campaign, launched in February 2003, resulted in around 2,500 extra-judicial deaths, which led to concern among human-rights advocates. After Thaksin was ousted in September 2006, the junta that took power ordered an investigation into the war on drugs. The probe concluded that as many as 1,400 of the 2,500 people killed had no link to narcotics.

The spokesman dismissed a complaint filed by Thida Thavornseth, chairperson of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) at the ICC alleging the country's justice system has failed to function and failed to deal with cases involving political crises in the country.

Chavanond said Thaksin was the person pulling the strings behind the political turmoil. He also denied that Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva had evaded checks as alleged, saying he appointed the Independent Fact Finding Committee to investigate the political riots in 2010.

The Yingluck government, however, has been trying to issue amnesty bills to whitewash those involved so that they would not have to face investigation, the spokesman claimed.

Meanwhile, Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's legal adviser, dismissed the Democrats' move as merely an assignment from the Opposition Party to keep Kasit busy, adding that the Pheu Thai Party did not feel threatened by the move.

"We want to know which case will reach the court first - our case against ex-PM Abhisit Vejjajiva or this case," he said.

Noppadon defended Thaksin, saying he had never ordered anyone to kill anyone during his tenure.

He said there were many fact-finding committees set up to probe the alleged 2,500 "silencing" killings during the implementation of the war on drugs policy, and they all decided that no government ordered killings of drug suspects.

Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam filed a notice with the ICC in February last year about a "potential crime-against-humanity case" - allegedly committed by the Abhisit government.

The application requests that an ICC prosecutor launch a preliminary investigation into the death of 91 people, mainly red-shirt demonstrators, who it alleges were "intentionally killed" by the government in April and May last year.

Amsterdam has alleged that the government set the stage for a deadly crackdown by using security officers camouflaged as the mysterious "men in black" to stage fatal attacks on Army troops sent to suppress the demonstrators on April 10. This was done so the Army could justify deadly retaliation, he has claimed, adding that no "men in black" were arrested.

Amsterdam also claimed the Army hired arsonists to set fire to buildings at Ratchaprasong Intersection on May 19 to justify the brutal crackdown. Amsterdam said he filed the case because "Thailand has demonstrated a complete absence of the rule of law."

-- The Nation 2012-08-05

[Soutpeel]

Let the children play, if the ICC have one ounce of sense, they will stay out of this as they are being used for political purposes.

Further "Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam" I thought he was our man in Dubai's lawyer, and our man in Dubai said he wasn't involved with the red shirts and had retired from politics..

Edited August 5, 2012 by Scott
formatting

[ianf]

Let the children play, if the ICC have one ounce of sense, they will stay out of this as they are being used for political purposes.

Further "Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam" I thought he was our man in Dubai's lawyer, and our man in Dubai said he wasn't involved with the red shirts and had retired from politics..

Robert Amsterdam is a trouble maker. He is a lawyer with no ethics. This is a man who can defend a human rights abuser and would-be dictator but at the same time accuse others of human rights violations by twisting the facts and rewriting history. He is indeed a dangerous individual and one of the reasons why he turmoil continues in Thailand.

[ttelise]

Let the children play, if the ICC have one ounce of sense, they will stay out of this as they are being used for political purposes.

Further "Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam" I thought he was our man in Dubai's lawyer, and our man in Dubai said he wasnt involved wit hte red shirts and had retired from politics..

Robert Amsterdam is a trouble maker. He is a lawyer with no ethics. This is a man who can defend a human rights abuser and would-be dictator but at the same time accuse others of human rights violations by twisting the facts and rewriting history. He is indeed a dangerous individual and one of the reasons why he turmoil continues in Thailand.

Just more paranoid politically motivated rhetoric with no basis in fact. Amsterdam is not dangerous. All these whacked out primate acting so called politicians who do nothing but stir the pot are the dangerous ones. Perhaps if the yellows spent 10 percent of the time the waste focusing on Thaksin and creating a <deleted> storm on actually working on policies and solutions the Dems could accomish something. Just 10 percent would be a good start. That is how pathetic this all is.

[whybother]

Let the children play, if the ICC have one ounce of sense, they will stay out of this as they are being used for political purposes.

Further "Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam" I thought he was our man in Dubai's lawyer, and our man in Dubai said he wasnt involved wit hte red shirts and had retired from politics..

Robert Amsterdam is a trouble maker. He is a lawyer with no ethics. This is a man who can defend a human rights abuser and would-be dictator but at the same time accuse others of human rights violations by twisting the facts and rewriting history. He is indeed a dangerous individual and one of the reasons why he turmoil continues in Thailand.

Just more paranoid politically motivated rhetoric with no basis in fact. Amsterdam is not dangerous. All these whacked out primate acting so called politicians who do nothing but stir the pot are the dangerous ones. Perhaps if the yellows spent 10 percent of the time the waste focusing on Thaksin and creating a <deleted> storm on actually working on policies and solutions the Dems could accomish something. Just 10 percent would be a good start. That is how pathetic this all is.

How would the yellow shirts working on policies help the Democrats?

Sent from my HTC phone.

[Moruya]

Noppadon defended Thaksin, saying he had never ordered anyone to kill anyone during his tenure.

Equally Thaksin could have called a halt to the carnage say after the first 100 deaths but said that was the "price worth paying".

Amsterdam denies the existence of the men in black. He must be the only one who could think that these people could operate freely within the red ranks without being questioned. Plenty of impartial 3rd party evidence from journalists that were there. Plenty of claims such as She Daeng's "ronin"

[ThaiOats]

Let the children play, if the ICC have one ounce of sense, they will stay out of this as they are being used for political purposes.

Further "Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam" I thought he was our man in Dubai's lawyer, and our man in Dubai said he wasnt involved wit hte red shirts and had retired from politics..

Robert Amsterdam is a trouble maker. He is a lawyer with no ethics. This is a man who can defend a human rights abuser and would-be dictator but at the same time accuse others of human rights violations by twisting the facts and rewriting history. He is indeed a dangerous individual and one of the reasons why he turmoil continues in Thailand.

Just more paranoid politically motivated rhetoric with no basis in fact. Amsterdam is not dangerous. All these whacked out primate acting so called politicians who do nothing but stir the pot are the dangerous ones. Perhaps if the yellows spent 10 percent of the time the waste focusing on Thaksin and creating a <deleted> storm on actually working on policies and solutions the Dems could accomish something. Just 10 percent would be a good start. That is how pathetic this all is.

Where in the article did it mention Yellows?

[Orac]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

[Moruya]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

[Orac]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

There have already been numerous probes into what happenned with no real results - the latest I believe under the previous government by former attorney-general Kampee Kaewcharoen. If there is additional evidence that was discovered that could clearly link Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings then why was it not brought forward at the time.

The other significant issue here is the the endorsement the policy received both with what could be construed as 'instructions' before hand such as Privy Councillor General Phichit Kunlawanit “if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma" and statements made afterwards saying that 2500 deaths were a small price to pay.

[Soutpeel]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

oh no they dont

[Thaddeus]

Noppadon defended Thaksin, saying he had never ordered anyone to kill anyone during his tenure.

Really.................

a committee investigating Thailand’s 2003 war on drugs and chaired by former chief prosecutor Kanit na Kakhon blamed the deposed prime minister for the slaughter that the campaign promoted.

The committee’s report said: “On January 14, 2003 Thaksin chaired a meeting of provincial governors, police chiefs and heads of agencies and instructed them to wage all-out war on illicit drugs, classified as a national security threat which must be resolved without mercy, and any casualties were deemed necessary.”

The result of the instruction was the formation of a National Drug Suppression Centre that compiled a blacklist of alleged traffickers.

The police and other authorities were then encouraged to shorten the blacklist by extrajudicial killings.

The report includes a statement by Thaksin at a March 23, 2003 meeting that traffickers could go to only two places, jail or a funeral

Source: http://www.southeastasiantimes.com/

[ballpoint]

Noppadon defended Thaksin, saying he had never ordered anyone to kill anyone during his tenure

"Deviating sharply from Thailand's previous efforts to build the rule of law, Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has called for law enforcement to be conducted on the basis of an "eye for an eye." Interior Minister Wan Muhamad Nor Matha put it bluntly in January. Referring to drug dealers, he said: "They will be put behind bars or even vanish without a trace. Who cares? They are destroying our country."

""In this war, drug dealers must die," Thaksin has said. "But we don't kill them. It's a matter of bad guys killing bad guys." Few in Thailand find his explanation credible".

"At the behest of Thaksin's government, local authorities hurriedly drew up blacklists of suspected drug dealers. Bangkok then gave provincial governors and police chiefs short deadlines to clear names from the list. The interior minister threatened retaliation against local officials who did not produce results, driving home the point by citing the way a former king dealt with unresponsive officials: "The king had them all beheaded.""

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/24/opinion/24iht-edbrad_ed3_.html

[AleG]

"Amsterdam has alleged that the government set the stage for a deadly crackdown by using security officers camouflaged as the mysterious "men in black" to stage fatal attacks on Army troops sent to suppress the demonstrators on April 10. This was done so the Army could justify deadly retaliation, he has claimed, adding that no "men in black" were arrested."

So the army did a false flag operation by killing the Queen's Guards commander, a favourite of... someone, to discredit the Red Shirts. Right.

Only an imbecile or an utterly brain washed zombie would believe Amsterdam. Propagandists and manipulators like him are the main culprits of Crimes Against Humanity along human history.

[ballpoint]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

oh no they dont

Indeed, some definitely don't want the truth to come out. I see one side furiously scrambling for "reconcilition" through a blanket amnesty and whitewashing of crimes. Even at the cost of further division.

[Moruya]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

There have already been numerous probes into what happenned with no real results - the latest I believe under the previous government by former attorney-general Kampee Kaewcharoen. If there is additional evidence that was discovered that could clearly link Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings then why was it not brought forward at the time.

The other significant issue here is the the endorsement the policy received both with what could be construed as 'instructions' before hand such as Privy Councillor General Phichit Kunlawanit “if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma" and statements made afterwards saying that 2500 deaths were a small price to pay.

There's also the small matter of Thaksin not calling a halt to it or an investigation into it

[Moruya]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

oh no they dont

Who doesn't?

[whybother]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

oh no they dont

Who doesn't?

The people pushing for the reconciliation bill want everything swept under the carpet.

[Roadman]

Let the children play, if the ICC have one ounce of sense, they will stay out of this as they are being used for political purposes.

Further "Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam" I thought he was our man in Dubai's lawyer, and our man in Dubai said he wasnt involved wit hte red shirts and had retired from politics..

Robert Amsterdam is a trouble maker. He is a lawyer with no ethics. This is a man who can defend a human rights abuser and would-be dictator but at the same time accuse others of human rights violations by twisting the facts and rewriting history. He is indeed a dangerous individual and one of the reasons why he turmoil continues in Thailand.

Just more paranoid politically motivated rhetoric with no basis in fact. Amsterdam is not dangerous. All these whacked out primate acting so called politicians who do nothing but stir the pot are the dangerous ones. Perhaps if the yellows spent 10 percent of the time the waste focusing on Thaksin and creating a <deleted> storm on actually working on policies and solutions the Dems could accomish something. Just 10 percent would be a good start. That is how pathetic this all is.

Pot...Kettle...Black..."10% on Thaksin?" and the Pheu Thai % would be what of the mostly bring back Thaksin whitewash that as government they are trying to push...truly amazing comment.

Agree thou that Amsterdam is not dangerous. It is the one paying him and ther rest of his lackeys that is.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Roadman

[MILT]

[Moruya]

The people pushing for the reconciliation bill want everything swept under the carpet.

Aye. But I referred to them as negligible as they are but a few with vested interests.

[scorecard]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

Agree, and if a full and accurate invetsigation is completed and if finds fault anywhere / any person / any party, then appropriate legal actions should be taken. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Buchholz]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

There have already been numerous probes into what happenned with no real results - the latest I believe under the previous government by former attorney-general Kampee Kaewcharoen. If there is additional evidence that was discovered that could clearly link Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings then why was it not brought forward at the time.

The other significant issue here is the the endorsement the policy received both with what could be construed as 'instructions' before hand such as Privy Councillor General Phichit Kunlawanit “if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma" and statements made afterwards saying that 2500 deaths were a small price to pay.

As it was Thaksin's own initiated, supervised, revised, implemented, and controlled program.... mere words from others regarding Thaksin's Plan would be of very minor consequence.

It was Thaksin's Plan from beginning to end, when he proudly proclaimed eradicating all drugs from Thailand.

.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

Agree, and if a full and accurate invetsigation is completed and if finds fault anywhere / any person / any party, then appropriate legal actions should be taken. Nothing more and nothing less.

Thats all very well, but people being caught up in the moment seem to have forgotten that Thailand is not a Signatory to the ICC and therefore no investigations can be taken on unless the "defendant" is from a country which is a signatory. Last time I looked Thaksin was born in Thailand which is not a signatory whereas Abhisit was born in the UK which is.

I believe that as Thailand is not a "States Party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court", similar to USA, Russia, China etc. any outcome, even if evidence becomes available on which to make a judgment, is in no way binding on Thailand. So basically it's all just a lot of political hot air and a waste of money.

The key part of Amsterdam's submittal to the ICC is that Abhisit is a British citizen and therefore subject to the ICC jurisdiction.

TH

http://www.thaivisa....e/page__st__125

[OzMick]

More to the point, I doubt that the ICC will be even vaguely interested in a legitimate government using limited violence to suppress an armed insurrection in the capital city - especially considered that tolerance and appeasement beyond all reasonable measure were given but not accepted by the insurgents.

[rixalex]

If there is additional evidence that was discovered that could clearly link Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings then why was it not brought forward at the time.

That there is evidence that links Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings i don't think is really of much dispute. Even a five-year old could make the case. I don't think the problem was lack of evidence, but rather lack of will from certain quarters. Thaksin is clearly not the only one who would be fingered. He is the one however who was at the top of the pyramid, the one who had the power to both initiate policy and to cease it. This didn't happen in one day. If he wasn't the one who green-lighted it (i absolutely think he was), he certainly didn't red-light it either. He took the credit for the good things that happened under his rule (yes, good things did happen), he (and his fans) shouldn't have any trouble with him taking the blame for the bad things... or at least a healthy portion of the blame.

[Soutpeel]

Thats all very well, but people being caught up in the moment seem to have forgotten that Thailand is not a Signatory to the ICC and therefore no investigations can be taken on unless the "defendant" is from a country which is a signatory. Last time I looked Thaksin was born in Thailand which is not a signatory whereas Abhisit was born in the UK which is.

Very good go after Abhsit by all means, by the same logic they can go after our man in Dubai, as after all isnt he a citizen of:MontenegroUgandaCambodiaplus what ever other PP's he holdsAbove 3 mentioned countries are all signatories to the ICCand please dont come back and say he want born in these countries, irrelevant he is a citizen of these countries by virtue of holding these PP's...Amsterdam is a moron

[phiphidon]

If there is additional evidence that was discovered that could clearly link Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings then why was it not brought forward at the time.

That there is evidence that links Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings i don't think is really of much dispute. Even a five-year old could make the case. I don't think the problem was lack of evidence, but rather lack of will from certain quarters. Thaksin is clearly not the only one who would be fingered. He is the one however who was at the top of the pyramid, the one who had the power to both initiate policy and to cease it. This didn't happen in one day. If he wasn't the one who green-lighted it (i absolutely think he was), he certainly didn't red-light it either. He took the credit for the good things that happened under his rule (yes, good things did happen), he (and his fans) shouldn't have any trouble with him taking the blame for the bad things... or at least a healthy portion of the blame.

"That there is evidence that links Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings i don't think is really of much dispute. Even a five-year old could make the case."

Interesting, perhaps you could take a look through Thaksins Prime Ministers Order No. 29/2546 Re: The Fight to Overcome Narcotic Drugs and point out this "clear link to the extrajudicial killings" that "Even a five-year old could make the case."

http://www.article2.org/mainfile.php/0203/83/

You might want to look at the comments from individual Police Officers and the Minister of the Interior of the time if you want to base your "evidence" on hyperbole, not an unusual tactic on this forum..........

[phiphidon]

Thats all very well, but people being caught up in the moment seem to have forgotten that Thailand is not a Signatory to the ICC and therefore no investigations can be taken on unless the "defendant" is from a country which is a signatory. Last time I looked Thaksin was born in Thailand which is not a signatory whereas Abhisit was born in the UK which is.

Very good go after Abhsit by all means, by the same logic they can go after our man in Dubai, as after all isnt he a citizen of:MontenegroUgandaCambodiaplus what ever other PP's he holdsAbove 3 mentioned countries are all signatories to the ICCand please dont come back and say he want born in these countries, irrelevant he is a citizen of these countries by virtue of holding these PP's...Amsterdam is a moron

Fair enough. That's all you needed to say, but true to form there has to be some insult aimed at someone associated with Thaksin etc. You didn't disappoint.

[scorecard]

Given the statements made before and after the war on drugs by certain persons this could be a political hot potato for the dems.

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

There have already been numerous probes into what happenned with no real results - the latest I believe under the previous government by former attorney-general Kampee Kaewcharoen. If there is additional evidence that was discovered that could clearly link Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings then why was it not brought forward at the time.

The other significant issue here is the the endorsement the policy received both with what could be construed as 'instructions' before hand such as Privy Councillor General Phichit Kunlawanit "if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma" and statements made afterwards saying that 2500 deaths were a small price to pay.

There's also the small matter of Thaksin not calling a halt to it or an investigation into it

There's also the smal matter of Thaksins direct remarks at the time, and chalerm, and samak, etc., plus there are a number of TV members (self included) who were here in Thailand at the time and can recall the daily events as they happened, which leave me, and probably more, with no doubt whatever of who masterminded the whole thing and who directed the whole thing.

You mention "The other significant issue here is the the endorsement the policy received both with what could be construed as 'instructions' before hand such as Privy Councillor General Phichit Kunlawanit "if we execute 60,000 the land will rise and our descendants will escape bad karma" and statements made afterwards saying that 2500 deaths were a small price to pay.

I followed this event very closely at the time and I've kept interest in it to today, and this is the first time I have ever heard this claim. Do you have anything which substantiates this?

And, reagardless of whether the Privy Councillor said it or not, there is still the open question of whether it was moral and within the law, and in fact a crime against humanity. It clearly wasn't moral, was illegal, and was a crime against humanity.

Edited August 5, 2012 by scorecard