High-Speed Rail Carries High Price Tag: Thailand

[webfact]

ANALYSIS

High-speed rail carries high price tag

WICHIT CHAITRONG

THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- Inspired by bullet train technology and the geographical advantages of the country, many share the ambition that Thailand can proceed to the next stage of development.

A consensus seems to have formed that investment in the rail system was urgently needed, especially to bring down high logistics costs, currently at about 20 per cent of gross domestic product.

Chalongphob Sussangkarn, an economist at the Thailand Development Research Institute (TDRI) and a former finance minister, said last week that since the government plans to upgrade the rail network and extend it to other Asian countries, the country should seek a vision for the next 10-20 years.

The country should not only import technology, locomotives and parts from foreign suppliers, but also look into the possibility of producing its own parts for trains.

"We're competitive in the auto and parts industry and we may be able to leverage from the solid base to advance to a high-income country, otherwise we will be trapped as a middle-income country for many years," he said.

The Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning has proposed four new routes from Bangkok to Chiang Mai, Nong Khai, Rayong and Padang Besar. The Bt800-billion project covers every key section of the country - North, Northeast, South and Eastern Seaboard.

The cost is as high as the speed of the trains.

Due to the big budget, the government might just start with a first phase of about 300-400 kilometres from Bangkok.

"Due to high investment risk we should first build double-track railroads before thinking about high-speed trains," said Nakorn Chantasorn, an adviser to the president of the National Science and Technology Development Agency.

Thailand's cities and towns are located along roads, which match movement by passenger car and public vehicular transport, unlike Europe, whose communities cluster around rail lines. That makes high-speed train investment successful there, he said.

If the Kingdom has to invest in high-speed trains, cities and towns will have to be relocated.

Getting a chance to get involved in high-speed train technology was not that easy, said Nakorn, who worked as an engineer for many years with the State Railway of Thailand.

The current government has yet to firm up a clear policy on how to deal with the issue. While Chalongphob is upbeat about the possibility, Nakorn harbours several concerns.

Since the trains will run at high speed, the risk of accidents and serious damage to life and property is also high, so the cost for the system is also high, as mechanical parts must be subjected to a very high standard.

"Recognising this fact, those who were initially enthusiastic have become disheartened," Nakorn said.

Many may agree with him, as Chinese high-speed trains have frequently experienced serious crashes in recent years.

Japanese experts have just finished a feasibility study for a high-speed train route linking Bangkok and Chiang Mai, while an expert team from China is conducting a study for Bangkok-Chiang Mai and Bangkok-Nong Khai.

The Nong Khai route may be the first to be built as China and Laos have been negotiating to build a railroad from Kunming in southern China to Vientiane, the capital of Laos.

But the tough conditions demanded by the Chinese government made the Laotian government reluctant. Some say Laos is worried about the train investment with China's help, as that might lead to a Chinese occupation of its soil.

The bottom line is how the countries share risk and return.

Chalongphob, who led TDRI's study on the economic gains from a rail network connecting with neighbouring countries, said Thailand, China and Laos should sit down and discuss the train route from Kunming to Vientiane and on to Nong Khai.

"To get the project off the ground quickly, I think the three parties should hold talks on the issue," he said.

The existing double-track rail route runs between Chachoengsao and the Laem Chabang eastern seaport. The Cabinet has just approved extending it to Kaengkhoi in Saraburi.

Both double-track and high-speed railroads face challenges in obtaining adequate financing, securing appropriate technology and sharing risks and benefits within Thailand and neighbouring countries.

-- The Nation 2012-08-06

[MaxLee]

"Oh,... it costs a lot of money?... There are gonba be complications with foreign contractors??? Oh,... I didn't know..." <- would be the answer of those corrupt, near-sighted Thai government official investors who had the idea in the first place, say...

Edited August 6, 2012 by MaxLee

[chainarong]

Not only a high price tag to build but also to maintain, everything very expensive.

[Guest]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

[MaxLee]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

On amazing Thailand of course...

Not only a high price tag to build but also to maintain, everything very expensive.

And you forgot the sustainability of Thailand's infrastructure in most regions outside Bangkok. And according to this article, even the Laos are smart enough to "THINK" about the consequences of such a huge investment project, unlike those Thai politician investors

Edited August 6, 2012 by MaxLee

[w11guy]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

Would be easier to just route the train through towns, as they do in Europe.

[GentlemanJim]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

And.........every Rai of land within 1 km either side of the bullet trains proposed track will be bought under a mandatory purchase scheme by ....the Shiniwatra's.

If the Government would just stamp all over the budgeted costs of 'graft' which have been officially stated as 30% of Government budgets then the bullet train would only cost 2/3 rds of the currently proposed price..a bargain!

[Thai at Heart]

Is this the most badly written article in the history of journalism?

[Pib]

...the country should seek a vision for the next 10-20 years.

Hard for Thailand to have a vision more than 10-20 days into the future, which is more than adequate time to dream-up being another Hub for something.

[Morakot]

Is this the most badly written article in the history of journalism?

Probably not! Just the usual Nation. I always have to remind myself, I am actually not reading the Onion or so.

[Skywalker69]

If the Kingdom has to invest in high-speed trains, cities and towns will have to be relocated.

Whoops.... Dear Government you must start print new money now and a lot of it.

[Sayonarax]

Oo but i thought you guys we're going down to High Speed rails Mart and getting a big discount?

Id rather fly upside down in an open cockpit plane then get on a Chinese made train. I mean look at this crap boxes you call trains already and you want to go hi tech? Why dont you try fixing the crap we already have in the city.

[jambodave]

Don"t any of us will live to see High Speed Trains running in Thailand

[Unkomoncents]

Since the trains will run at high speed, the risk of accidents and serious damage to life and property is also high, so the cost for the system is also high, as mechanical parts must be subjected to a very high standard.

"Recognising this fact, those who were initially enthusiastic have become disheartened," Nakorn said.

A great little gem that basically lays bare the attitude of the Thai government and Thais, in general, to public safety.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[SuneeTH]

Sure it is expensive. it is high speed.....

I suppose the European high speed train is cheaper to built & run than the slower trains.

[pattayaorganic]

Is this the most badly written article in the history of journalism?

NO, that is a very competitive area...

[laurentbkk]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

[MaxLee]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Hopefully this project will never happen as I fear about Thailand's safety measurements which, as all of you know, are crap...

[gearsau]

Got to disagree with you over the French TGV. Japan has the best technology and has an amazing record on safety and schedules.

I have been in Korea on the KTX, which are modelled on the French made high speed trains. Korea is now producing its own, but, the first high speed trains were French built. The KTX trains were much noisier to ride in, compared to the Japanese Shinkansen.

Used to live in Japan, and travelled extensively over Japan by rail. Even travelled Tokyo - Hiroshima in 4 hours (900 km ), and this was in the 90's. Did 2,000 km by train that day, and business as well. Tokyo-Hiroshima ( Shinkansen), Hiroshima - Kure ( local train)..Then returned to Tokyo that day.

BTW, I am Australian, and know that Australia will never have high speed rail.

[OzMick]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Toyota - in your dreams, they are going Chinese. Check out the worst car in the world @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HTIueOuDQ

[jerrysteve]

A High Speed GRAFT Train with all the trimmings! Sounds like a sound plan for sure.

[Skywalker69]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Toyota - in your dreams, they are going Chinese. Check out the worst car in the world @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HTIueOuDQ

Thank you for the link, shocking.

[gosompoi]

I will be dead before this would ever happen and when it does happen you might die to from riding it in Thailand.

[dcutman]

The second sentence of this article leads me to believe this HSR is to be used for freight, or both passenger and freight. Freight being the key word. I far as I know, witch is very little when it comes to HSR, is the freight these things carry is passenger baggage and postal packages and thats about it.

So, I dont think I missed any stories on Thailands grand HSR scheme. Is there now going to be a separate freight train and a HSR passenger train as well???

[belg]

hahaha funny... looking for foreign money and once it is build, they will just take over.... what about that german company that never got paid more than 20 years ago to make a highway or was it a part of the old airport here in thailand ?

why would any other country invest in such projects, where corruption money to be collected, costs to be tripple for the "right" reasons, is more important than anything else ?

why in so many years of living here or comming here for hollidays, there is no rail link from the airport directly to, let's say pattaya for one... or other (past) "top" tourist destinations

[sprq]

"we should first build double-track railroads before thinking about high-speed trains" says Nakorn somebody, saying about the only sensible thing in thw hole article.

As I keep saying whenever this topic comes up, and as any sane transport planner would say, Thailand needs only to upgrade to normal express train standard with double tracks, of the kind that has existed in Europe for about a century. At the moment, it has a railway system which runs at about the speed of the mid-Victorian railways.

Investing in high-speed trains would to be miss out the stage of development that is really needed in order to create an absurdly over-the-top system --- and probably a financially failed system -- in relation to Thailand's real needs.

[planr]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

The idea has been kicked around on and off by Prapat Chongsanguan, former MRTA governor. I think it's an excellent idea given the sizeable (and rapidly growing) market for both parts and carriages in ASEAN.

The second sentence of this article leads me to believe this HSR is to be used for freight, or both passenger and freight. Freight being the key word. I far as I know, witch is very little when it comes to HSR, is the freight these things carry is passenger baggage and postal packages and thats about it.

So, I dont think I missed any stories on Thailands grand HSR scheme. Is there now going to be a separate freight train and a HSR passenger train as well???

The Japanese proposal calls for considering containerized freight at night when there are no (or extremely limited) passenger services. The major issue with mixing pax and freight at high speed is safety, so the only real way anything beyond packages and parcels might go on HSR in Thailand is to separate the operations (e.g., day pax and night freight).

"we should first build double-track railroads before thinking about high-speed trains" says Nakorn somebody, saying about the only sensible thing in thw hole article.

As I keep saying whenever this topic comes up, and as any sane transport planner would say, Thailand needs only to upgrade to normal express train standard with double tracks, of the kind that has existed in Europe for about a century. At the moment, it has a railway system which runs at about the speed of the mid-Victorian railways.

Investing in high-speed trains would to be miss out the stage of development that is really needed in order to create an absurdly over-the-top system --- and probably a financially failed system -- in relation to Thailand's real needs.

+1,000,000

[bkk_mike]

Logistics usually refers to freight trains. - High Speed Rail is not used for bulk freight (As one of the earlier posters suggested, it might get used for a parcel or mail service, but you don't use high-speed rail for vehicles, let alone coal or iron ore shipments). The only thing I can think of offhand which, freight-wise might use high speed rail to get to China/Singapore from Thailand is hard drives, and even then it's only if it's actually cheaper than sending them by plane.

Admittedly, a reasonably fast (160km/h+) passenger + freight service on dual tracks, and where you either elevate the tracks or build road bridges to avoid level crossings could be a very good idea for most of the routes they're specifying, so that trains could run at full speed. In fact that's probably a better idea than actual High Speed Rail. (It would be a lot faster than any trains in Thailand currently. Imagine cars being shipped up to Chiang Mai by train from Rayong rather than being on car transporters the whole way. Even more useful if they can go to Singapore or Guangdong by train).

Also, the author doesn't seem to understand that the train lines in Europe were built between the existing cities. It's only America where the cities formed around the train lines as they extended west towards California. Thailand would obviously be a case where the train should be routed through the existing cities (cost-permitting). Alternatively, if it is a primarily freight line that they're building, it wouldn't need to go to Hua Lampong, and could connect to somewhere in the outskirts of Bangkok, i.e. somewhere with easy access to the outer ring road (for freight), or to the airport express or MRT or skytrain (for passengers).

[Liberator]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Toyota - in your dreams, they are going Chinese. Check out the worst car in the world @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HTIueOuDQ

Very good - except the car in this video is apparently Australian! '1979 Holden Commodore'. maybe the 'Chinese car crash test' indicated that the test was done in China? There again maybe not because the wall survived!

[KireB]

Is this the most badly written article in the history of journalism?

I fail too see why this article, or the economist's opinion is wrong! Why don't you explain what you mean!