Treatment Of A Monk

[ThaiPauly]

My Wife knows a Monk in one of Bangkok's smaller temples and has visited him on several occassions to take him alms.

I have been the last 3 times we have been to Bangkok in the last 2 years.

This Monk is 95 years old and dying of throat cancer and is also paralysed from the waist down.

OK I realise that Monks have no choice where they live, but his living conditions are appalling.

The walls of his small room are stained dirty brown as are all his utensils, kettle pot, even his Bhudda idols are filthy.

He told my Wife that there is no point giving him money as it is only stolen when he is either slleeping or outside in his wheelchair. He gets no help from other monks, save that they bring him what's left after they have had their pick on their alms rounds. He even has to PAY 20baht to have his rubbish taken out, we insisted that he took some money and I found an old envelope in his room that I used to put it in.

He has to get himself in and out of his wheelchair as there is nobody to help him. Even food that he may get that he likes and wants to save is then stolen by other monks or helpers. Even what little money he had for personal effects was stolen the last time we visited him

This has disturbed me a great deal. he has just discharged himself from the Monk's hospital because he said he was treated badly and just left alone constantly because he is dying. He said he actually saw Doctors removing breathing apperatus from another old Monk just so he could die.

This Monk wants to die in his room where he has lived for 27 years, so he permanantly leaves his door open so that someone MAY notice when he does die!!. He says that he has been visited in his dreams by a now deceased very high ranking Monk who he knew very well (he has been a Monk since he was 20 years old) telling him that his suffering will end in 40 days, his calender , just within his reach has the days marked off till the end of his life and he totaly beleives this is going to happen (and I hope for this sake it does)

When we arrived at the Temple he was sitting in his chair by the gate. he said he never normally did that, but today he knew he was going to have visitors!!

We bring him as much as we can, we offered to take him back to Chaingmai and care for him either at home or in hospital, but of course he won't have it, he is set on dying in his room.

He offered to give us all his ancient Bhuddist relics, but of course we could not accept them, but my worry is that once he dies they will be just snaffled up by unscrupilous helpers or bad Monks and his memeory forgotten. When we left I said to my Wife on consideration that we should have accepted at least one, then we could have dedicated a small shrine to him in our home with a picture which we have taken of him, at least it will preserve his memory. (He has no family that have seen him in years, neices, nephews etc) So who will remember him when he has passed on

All this has really irked me, I cannot understand why this Monk of well over 50years standing , who must have helped and contributed an awful lot to the faith should be treated so so shabbily?

Yes I understand the Bhudda said "Life Is Suffering" is his situation all part of the "suffering".?

We shall go down to see him again in a couple of weeks, before the 40 day mark is up.

For his part he even took the time to dictate a Mantra too my Wife that is little known, but can help you when you are (or someone you know) is unwell. He also clearly stated that when people do bad things to you, you should not do bad things in return.. hence his acceptance of his situation, but you would not treat a sick dog like he is being treated!

I am not asking any TV Members for help, this is our situation and I am sure that most of you do your own thing to help out unfortunates, but..................

can somebody help me out here as I am having a small "Crisis of faith"?

Thank you for reading this

TP

Edited March 6, 2006 by sabaijai

[cdnvic]

Knowing that his possesions will be stolen when he dies, he probably wants you to take at least something, so that he knows someone he cares for has something of his passed on to them.

Goes to show there are some really lousy people out there, even those in robes. Good on you and your wife, and I hope he doesn't suffer too much in his last days.

cv

[Misplaced]

After reading this thread, I feel so uneasy about people, the bad monks in general. Sometime I wish my wife and I are still living in Thailand so we may be of help. I commend you tremendously for reaching out and helping him out. Its rare these days when a person want to help another in-need without expecting anything in return. I agree with cdnvic when he says that you should take something from him. It'd probably make him feel better to know someone cares.

Hope the lord Budhha take him as quickly as possible so he may not have to suffer anymore. Sattuu, Sattuu, Sattuu

[ThaiPauly]

Thank you for your replies.

I have discussed them with my Wife and she is now in agreement that when we go back down to BK we shall take something from him so that we can pray for his soul, make merit for him and be the keepers of his memory. I am confident that he knows we will return and will not die until we do

TP

Edited January 20, 2006 by ThaiPauly

[peter991]

I am now very disappointed with monks in general in Thailand. While 95% of Thailand's population is Buddhist I have found many 'bad' monks and very few 'good' monks.

I could give examples of some of the 'bad' things but that would get me banned.

Suffice to say I have a lot of time for the 'good' monks and the work they do.

Thanks ThaiPauly for sharing a very sad story with us. My heart goes out to the old monk. I hope he finds peace in his next life.

Peter

[robitusson]

With regard to your crisis of faith, I think it helps to differentiate between the religion of Buddhism and the institution of it. This is what my mother does with her Catholicism which she practises with great faith and devotion in the religious aspects and with a healthy sceptism of the institution of the Church in both it's good and bad aspects.

[chownah]

....................

All this has really irked me, I cannot understand why this Monk of well over 50years standing , who must have helped and contributed an awful lot to the faith should be treated so so shabbily?

Yes I understand the Bhudda said "Life Is Suffering" is his situation all part of the "suffering".?

..........................

I am not asking any TV Members for help, this is our situation and I am sure that most of you do your own thing to help out unfortunates, but..................

can somebody help me out here as I am having a small "Crisis of faith"?

.....................

The focus of most of what you wrote is the suffering of the monk. I have kept the parts of your post that I hope will give a different emphasis. I would like to suggest that YOU are suffering. It is your suffering that is the cause of your post. I am not trying to say that the monk's suffering is unimportant but I truly believe that if you want to help people with their suffering then the first thing you must do is to learn as much about suffering as possible and I truly believe that the best way to do this from a Buddhist standpoint is to learn about the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Four Noble Truths in a nutshell:

1. All lives have lots of suffering.

2. Suffering arises from craving.

3. It is possible for all suffering to end.

4. The way to end suffering is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path in a nutshell:

I don't do this one in a nutshell but there are countless books written explaining it and countless websites with free explanations of it and one which I like very much is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/wingscon.htm

This website has alot of information on a large number of Buddhist topics but if you look you will find the talk specifically on the Noble Eightfold Path......and more....

[chuchok]

Good on you TP. Most people wouldn't give a <deleted>. It's a pity you can't give these bad buggers who are stealing from the old fella a big slap around the chops. It also irks me when I see people of any religion that are bad bastards.

[Jai Dee]

Good on you TP. Most people wouldn't give a <deleted>.

Seconded.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to Chownah's theory...

Have some compassion... TP has set us all a good example.

[ThaiPauly]

....................

All this has really irked me, I cannot understand why this Monk of well over 50years standing , who must have helped and contributed an awful lot to the faith should be treated so so shabbily?

Yes I understand the Bhudda said "Life Is Suffering" is his situation all part of the "suffering".?

..........................

I am not asking any TV Members for help, this is our situation and I am sure that most of you do your own thing to help out unfortunates, but..................

can somebody help me out here as I am having a small "Crisis of faith"?

.....................

The focus of most of what you wrote is the suffering of the monk. I have kept the parts of your post that I hope will give a different emphasis. I would like to suggest that YOU are suffering. It is your suffering that is the cause of your post. I am not trying to say that the monk's suffering is unimportant but I truly believe that if you want to help people with their suffering then the first thing you must do is to learn as much about suffering as possible and I truly believe that the best way to do this from a Buddhist standpoint is to learn about the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Four Noble Truths in a nutshell:

1. All lives have lots of suffering.

2. Suffering arises from craving.

3. It is possible for all suffering to end.

4. The way to end suffering is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path in a nutshell:

I don't do this one in a nutshell but there are countless books written explaining it and countless websites with free explanations of it and one which I like very much is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/wingscon.htm

This website has alot of information on a large number of Buddhist topics but if you look you will find the talk specifically on the Noble Eightfold Path......and more....

You don't know me, are you my therapist,(not that I have one) how could you come out with bilge like this.

What on earth has my "Suffering"(or lack of ot as you put it) got to do with this poor Monk's?. He has led a very virtuous life...following the eight fold path and the four noble truths... and where has it got him?

You obviously know a lot about the faith, but I wonder how much of it you put into practice?

So you would not help somebody in distress who is less fortunate than yourself?

You should be taking a good look at yourself in the mirror mate

[Jai Dee]

Don't bother biting TP... it isn't worth the angst.

Believe in yourself... and what you have done and are doing... I do.

[chownah]

Good on you TP. Most people wouldn't give a <deleted>.

Seconded.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to Chownah's theory...

Have some compassion... TP has set us all a good example.

What theory are you talking about?

[chuchok]

Good on you TP. Most people wouldn't give a <deleted>.

Seconded.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to Chownah's theory...

Have some compassion... TP has set us all a good example.

What theory are you talking about?

Don't be antagonistic twerp. Recognise a good deed for what it is.

[chownah]

....................

All this has really irked me, I cannot understand why this Monk of well over 50years standing , who must have helped and contributed an awful lot to the faith should be treated so so shabbily?

Yes I understand the Bhudda said "Life Is Suffering" is his situation all part of the "suffering".?

..........................

I am not asking any TV Members for help, this is our situation and I am sure that most of you do your own thing to help out unfortunates, but..................

can somebody help me out here as I am having a small "Crisis of faith"?

.....................

The focus of most of what you wrote is the suffering of the monk. I have kept the parts of your post that I hope will give a different emphasis. I would like to suggest that YOU are suffering. It is your suffering that is the cause of your post. I am not trying to say that the monk's suffering is unimportant but I truly believe that if you want to help people with their suffering then the first thing you must do is to learn as much about suffering as possible and I truly believe that the best way to do this from a Buddhist standpoint is to learn about the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Four Noble Truths in a nutshell:

1. All lives have lots of suffering.

2. Suffering arises from craving.

3. It is possible for all suffering to end.

4. The way to end suffering is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path in a nutshell:

I don't do this one in a nutshell but there are countless books written explaining it and countless websites with free explanations of it and one which I like very much is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/wingscon.htm

This website has alot of information on a large number of Buddhist topics but if you look you will find the talk specifically on the Noble Eightfold Path......and more....

You don't know me, are you my therapist,(not that I have one) how could you come out with bilge like this.

What on earth has my "Suffering"(or lack of ot as you put it) got to do with this poor Monk's?. He has led a very virtuous life...following the eight fold path and the four noble truths... and where has it got him?

You obviously know a lot about the faith, but I wonder how much of it you put into practice?

So you would not help somebody in distress who is less fortunate than yourself?

You should be taking a good look at yourself in the mirror mate

Your original post asked "can somebody help me out here as I am having a small "Crisis of faith"?" I responded to your request. I offered you what I think is the best advise from within a Buddhist framework (this is the Buddhism forum after all) as to how to deal with your crisis of faith. If you think that my advise is "bilge" then simply don't follow it. Maybe it is "bilge"....I don't know....this "bilge" is the best understanding of Buddhist philosophy that I have and I have offered it in an attempt to help you......you did ask for help......

What ever in my post gave you the idea that I would not help somebody in distress? I've even been known to help people who are not in distress. I doubt that the monk you talk about is less fortunate than me. I don't really expect you to understand this. In Buddhist philosophy good fortune is not measured by what you have or by the elegance of your surroundings.

I took a good look in the mirror just as you suggested. Thank you for the advise.

Good on you TP. Most people wouldn't give a <deleted>.

Seconded.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to Chownah's theory...

Have some compassion... TP has set us all a good example.

What theory are you talking about?

Don't be antagonistic twerp. Recognise a good deed for what it is.

What have I posted here so that you treat me with such disrespect?

Edited January 20, 2006 by chownah

[chownah]

ThaiPauly,

In my previous post I wrote:

".....I doubt that the monk you talk about is less fortunate than me. I don't really expect you to understand this. In Buddhist philosophy good fortune is not measured by what you have or by the elegance of your surroundings."

I want to apologize for thinking and saying that I didn't expect you to understand this. As you pointed out previously I don't know you at all....it is presumptious of me to have made that statement and it is also patronizing and disrespectful. I was wrong in saying that because in all likelyhood you do understand what I have written.

Sincerely,

Chownah

[DUMPSTER]

I fully agree with Chownah. It is your suffering that you need to deal with not the monks. Look at your feelings and question why you feel the suffering of another. The monk has accepted his path and is ending his life with great dignity and awareness, unlike those around him. This is something you should be aware of but all you are seeing is your suffering in him. Don't look at the negative points like the thieving monks or the dirty room, look at the positive like how he can accept death. His passing could be your awakening but you need to open your eyes and your heart and stop the negative thoughts.

Chownah’s advice is sound but you may not be open to that path at this time or you may choose another path but you should at least respect his instead of throwing emotional accusations. You seem lost in your emotions and disturbed by what you see, this is understandable, but one should never ask for advice and then attack someone just because you cannot accept or are not open to it. A simple thanks, but no thanks, would suffice don’t you think?

Why do we always see negatives in positive situations? This is a great lesson to learn, that is, how someone can accept dying, and you have a front row seat. Instead of learning, you are pouring out negative emotions which will only prevent clarity. Be in your heart with your feet on the ground and not in your head creating anger and confusion.

Take what you can from this post and if that is nothing then at least treat it with respect as we all should do, even in disagreement.

Edited January 20, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[ThaiPauly]

I now understand where Chonwah is coming from , and Dumpster has clarified things even more clearly.

You are right I did ask for advice and it was given and I was disrespectful to Chonwah in the heat of the moment and I apologize for that.

I did not fully understand it when it was first given, it was shall we say "Over My Head" If you had seen what I had seen I am sure you would understand.

Now I have had more time to take in what he said, and had things clarified I think I understand what you are both saying.

And to Chonwah, what can I say to you... if your situation is worse that that Monk's then I can only tell you how sorry I am for you, you should not be apologizing to me.

Thank You both

TP

[redrus]

Thai Pauly, you have proved before to be a gent.

Remember the girl with acid thrown in her face.

You have proved yourself once again to be a kind hearted, thoughtful and a general top bloke /diamond geezer.

Nice one to your wife too.

redrus

[Rinrada]

Good on you TP. Most people wouldn't give a <deleted>.

Seconded.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to Chownah's theory...

Have some compassion... TP has set us all a good example.

absolutely......half the fun of going to "paradise"is surely peace of mind on the way there and having a good send off before you go.

Your leading by example and if the old monk leaves this world with even just the slightest smile on his face it will be down to you and your good wife......if only we could all say that...

[sabaijai]

FWIW I thought Chownah was pretty clear that he was responding to the last part of ThaiPauly's message, not to the monk's condition. Reading ThaiPauly's reaction to Chownah's attempt to help him with his 'crisis of faith', I'm now confused as to what ThaiPauly was looking for in his original post.

Are you seeking a social explanation for the monk's apparent condition? In that case, you can most likely look to the abbot of that particular monastery. My general observation in Thailand is that the conditions in any given wat are a reflection of the abbot's character, or in the case of larger wat, the monastic committee, etc.

If you want to go beyond helping this one monk, you might want to ask the abbot about this case.

[ThaiPauly]

FWIW I thought Chownah was pretty clear that he was responding to the last part of ThaiPauly's message, not to the monk's condition. Reading ThaiPauly's reaction to Chownah's attempt to help him with his 'crisis of faith', I'm now confused as to what ThaiPauly was looking for in his original post.

Are you seeking a social explanation for the monk's apparent condition? In that case, you can most likely look to the abbot of that particular monastery. My general observation in Thailand is that the conditions in any given wat are a reflection of the abbot's character, or in the case of larger wat, the monastic committee, etc.

If you want to go beyond helping this one monk, you might want to ask the abbot about this case.

You have raised a very valid point here.

I do not speak Thai(but obviously my Wife does) She has known this Monk for 9 years.

She is not the sort of person to confront an Abbot, but I will see what I can do to persuade her to speak to him.

We HAVE to fly within the next two weeks as his clock is ticking.

Wish us luck

Sababaijai,

you might have missed my appology to Chonwah.

Please read my post

TP

[sleepyjohn]

I was very touched by your story, and your reaction to it.

A few things have occurred to me:

Would it be too disturbing to the monk to be anywhere else than his well known room?

Presumably the Jow-a-wat is somewhat insensitive, but might it be worth having a word with him to raise his awareness of this monk's situation, rather in the sense of "you're volunteered".

Is it an option to pay someone to care for him? I for one might be willing to contribute a little and am in CM. I would think some others here might also.

If you know a good monk from that area might they visit him regularly and perhaps give him a bit of dharmic inspiration in his latter days.

Whatever passes....good luck and well done.

Sleepyjohn

Edited January 21, 2006 by sleepyjohn

[Abandon]

I wonder what it is really like. I have been around a lot of temples and they have a different way of looking at things. For example, most monks that I have seen do not pay any attention to their surraounding. A shrine of filthy, never-been-cleaned Buddha statues is rather normal, as is a ceiling full of ancient cobwebs. Thai's, and especially old monks, are more concerned with their inner life than the outer surroundings. Many have come from happy homes in the country that were little more than leaky shacks.

I am sure that they feed him ok, and do not take all the decent food and give him rubbish. If there is one thing this country is good at it is feeding people.

In all likelihood they will not be paying any appropriate medical attention to him, though ignorance more than anything. The monks hospital from what I have heard is pretty poor, though it is at least, free for them. Theft is rife in most temples ... the big temple near to me where I go often, continually warns people to carry their shoes with them in plastic bags ... something I discovered to be sagacious the hard way. A simple pouch at his waist would stop his money being taken.

Just saying that it probably not so bad looked at from the monks perspective.

[sabaijai]

FWIW I thought Chownah was pretty clear that he was responding to the last part of ThaiPauly's message, not to the monk's condition. Reading ThaiPauly's reaction to Chownah's attempt to help him with his 'crisis of faith', I'm now confused as to what ThaiPauly was looking for in his original post.

Are you seeking a social explanation for the monk's apparent condition? In that case, you can most likely look to the abbot of that particular monastery. My general observation in Thailand is that the conditions in any given wat are a reflection of the abbot's character, or in the case of larger wat, the monastic committee, etc.

If you want to go beyond helping this one monk, you might want to ask the abbot about this case.

You have raised a very valid point here.

I do not speak Thai(but obviously my Wife does) She has known this Monk for 9 years.

She is not the sort of person to confront an Abbot, but I will see what I can do to persuade her to speak to him.

We HAVE to fly within the next two weeks as his clock is ticking.

Wish us luck

Sababaijai,

you might have missed my appology to Chonwah.

Please read my post

TP

I didn't see your post before I posted, for some reason it didn't appear till afterwards (or perhaps I just didn't refresh the cache from a previous viewing, dunno). Glad to to see you've patched things up with Chownah.

Abandon makes a good point too, about the context of the monk's situation. It doesn't mean he's not suffering, but it's not the sort of suffering that's all that uncommon or unexpected in the monastery world (or in the rest of Thailand, in the lower-income sectors of society).

One might draw an analogy with the long thread we had earlier about the puppies allegedly left to die at a monastery (I'm not saying the puppies's suffering and the monk's are the same, though one could argue that). There is a cross-cultural component to all this. For better or worse, Thais accept situations that many Westerners get very angry or sad about.

Good for you and your wife for trying to help out and ease the man's suffering. Going further, talking to the abbot as I suggested, of course is not an easy thing to do and might not make any difference anyway. Taking direct action to help the man is no doubt the best thing and you can potentially learn more about your own suffering, your mind, etc, than you can sitting in meditation.

As for his antiquities or sacred belongings, I would accept them graciously and either keep them at home in memory of the old monk or else donate them to a deserving monastery.

Keep us posted if you can.

[ThaiPauly]

I was very touched by your story, and your reaction to it.

A few things have occurred to me:

Would it be too disturbing to the monk to be anywhere else than his well known room?

Presumably the Jow-a-wat is somewhat insensitive, but might it be worth having a word with him to raise his awareness of this monk's situation, rather in the sense of "you're volunteered".

Is it an option to pay someone to care for him? I for one might be willing to contribute a little and am in CM. I would think some others here might also.

If you know a good monk from that area might they visit him regularly and perhaps give him a bit of dharmic inspiration in his latter days.

Whatever passes....good luck and well done.

Sleepyjohn

Sleepyjohn,

I was touched by your offer of help, but as the Monk has no desire to come to CM to be taken care of there is very little you can do. money is unimportant and to get a staranger to invade his privacy to clean his room would not be right, as posted by others, he probably has no concern for the state of his room and why should he care? he bought himself a small brush for 40B !! to take care of the tiles that he sits on

This is something my Wife and I have to take care of, and with all the good advice I have received on this thread from those who understand Bhuddism far better than I could ever hope to, it has bouyed me up sufficiently to deal with it. We shal be going down to BK again next week to see him, and maybee spend more time with him than usual.

I WILL take his relics (but only if he offers them again) I have already had a picture of him developed, and if we are offered them or not his picture will go in one of our personal shrines at home, so we can make merit for him with or without them. THINGS are of no importance, I am learning this, as well as the impermanace of all things, his death will have taught me something about life.

Once again thank you for your kind offer

TP

[Jai Dee]

After being offline over the weekend I am glad to see that the tone of this thread has turned around.

Maybe I too have learned something...

This was the comment that I personally found myself disagreeing with...

I would like to suggest that YOU are suffering.

In retrospect, and in light of other members clarifications, I must admit that it went right over my head at the time... please accept my apologies Chownah. Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.

Good on you TP... you are doing a very good thing and you have my full support as well.

[chownah]

Apologies accepted all around and thanks for letting me know that you understand that my intentions were good. I have learned that it would be better if I could polish the presentation of my ideas a bit more before posting them.....we'll see.....

[ThaiPauly]

Apologies accepted all around and thanks for letting me know that you understand that my intentions were good. I have learned that it would be better if I could polish the presentation of my ideas a bit more before posting them.....we'll see.....

Thank You Chownah

[Abandon]

A foreign monk I know was staying close to the temple concerned and went over to take a look when I forwarded this thread to him. He is on his way back abroad after the big Ajahn Chah meeting up north. We only chatted briefly. He said the whole temple is pretty squalid apart from the new buildings. But also that it was not so bad compared to many temples. The old monk is being fed sufficiently, but says he does not want to eat much anymore due to his health. There are a few people helping out emptying the toilet pot, and he gets to go out every day in the chair.

He also mentioned that the monk expects to pass away soon. I guess at 95 years old that is a safe bet.

[camerata]

As a general comment, I think the best antidote for a crisis of faith is to read about the really exceptional, inspiring practitioners of the faith. For instance:

Venerable Father (Ajahn Chah)

The Buddha in the Jungle (Ajahn To et al)

Forest Recollections (Ajahn Man and the Thai Forest Tradition meditation masters)

The Wheel of Life (Hsu Yun and various Mongolian lamas)

The Way of the White Clouds (Tomo Geshe and other Tibetan lamas)

I'm sure there are many more.