In Praise Of Older Men

[Ijustwannateach]

From my last year in high school until now, I can confidently say that my best friends in the world have been older men (usually at least 2 decades older than I). In earlier years, these were mostly straight men (as far as I knew); teachers, counsellors, and coworkers. As time goes by, they are mostly gay friends and companions.

They are much, much wiser than me. They know a lot. They've already been over some of the ground I'm covering now, and give good advice on which way to go.

They are no longer vain. They are mature, and happy to be so. I remember dining with a 55-yo friend who was the librarian at the International High School in Kobe; he told me then "I'm so happy- I've realised that I'm finally mature!"

They are cute and flirty and handsome in their own way, and I only wish I could harness my libido in that direction, which it steadfastly refuses to go. I feel in many ways the many Thais I know who are attracted to them are lucky!

They are usually as generous as their circumstances permit with their money, and always with their time. Their sense of humour is well-developed, and they know the value of a good laugh.

They are pragmatic, and combine as much idealism as works with enough pessimism to be prudent.

They are some of the best people I know.

"Steven"

[americana]

Thanks steve! I'm old enough to know what I want and young enough to do something about it

[Uma~~]

I agree maturity and wisdom are attractive assets.

[DUMPSTER]

but not as attractive as a smooth firm ass compared to a saggy wrinkled one!

[toptuan]

but not as attractive as a smooth firm ass compared to a saggy wrinkled one!

Hey Dump, just concentrate on other "parts." The new perspective might grow on you.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not only did somebody steal my line without giving me credit for it (you're forgiven; we're almost identical age), but somebody seems to think that an older man's posterior is wrinkled. Not necessarily.

Thanks, Steven, for the thread. Some of us spend so much time "Living in the Past" that we forgot it was just a song title by Jethro Tull. We keep our childhood hangups forever ("My father never hugged me...boo hoo hoo is me, I'm ruint forever", but then again, it was 1955 and fathers in that neighborhood never hugged their kids. Or we never get over our period spent in denial, or spent as a straight husband, and we forget the song Don Henley wrote after hel_l froze over: "Get over it."

Well, some people can never get over it, and they're none the better for it, and I sympathize with them. As for me, I'm over the period when I got erections looking at large breasts. I've run the race and have little to show for it but several good pensions, six kids, ten grandkids, and more orgasms in a day than most straight men my age get in three weeks.

And while I shall not disclose the details, yesterday I had an experience I'd practically given up having again, for 20 years now.

My favorite Steppenwolf title: "You're Never Too Old, to Start All Over Again." Especially if you were born to be wild.....

[ProThaiExpat]

Bravo, IJWT, years ago, there was an Advocate article praising older men by younger men and then the inevitable counter argument appeared in following weeks.

The gist was, if older men are so great, why aren't there a long line of young gay guys in front of their doors?

I have always found myself with guys 20-30 years younger than myself, so yes, I have preferred older men but ended up with younger for the visual beauty which includes a sexual component.

This is surprising, as I have learned from experience that the external beauty fades in the perception quickly and it is the inner beauty that is lasting.

Thailand does offer a bonanza of younger men who don't mind or otherwise appreciate older men and thus it is a "mecca" for older men in my view.

Fortunately for me, the love of my life looks and has the body of a 25 year old but is 40. For that reason, I consider myself quite fortunate to have largely ameliorated my older vs. younger dilemma.

I agree that older men can have saggy butts but on the whole, the posterior is the last part of the body to show age, especially if you walk, run, bycycle or play tennis a lot.

Those with bath house experience will tell you that older men on their stomachs can be very deceiving for the age conscious.

My recollection of the negatives of the older man include: set in their ways, rigid in their opinions, selfish, unhealthy habits, disregard of personal care, diminished sex drive and lack of adventurism. Physical deterioration to some extent, even in the athlete and of course wrinkles everywhere!!!

I am always amused by the ads in the lovelorn columns that go something like: "Older 20 seeks younger" or "Daddy 20 looking for son"!!! Of course, those who like older and are approaching seventy, do have a very rapidly diminishing supply of prospects, while those prefering younger never run out of an abundant supply of candidates.

[ChrisP]

Thanks Steven.. do I qualify, at 53..??!

When I finally accepted that I was now a "mature" gay man.. my supply of younger guys that I'm attracted to (in California) slowly dried up to the few who DO appreciate what an older man has to give.

That's when I discovered asians, and their relative lack of age-bias.

THEN I discovered Thailand..!! Whoo-hoo.

PTExpat is right.

ChrisP

[ChrisP]

kurgen.. your post is deleted.. and next time you want to insult a Mod, the ban is permanent.

ChrisP

[boybrat]

from my personal experience, just cos somebody is older in age does not always mean he has a more mature outlook to life. ie, maturity in age does not always equate maturity in thinking. some just get cattier and more bitter. have been to a few dinner parties and let's just say that age does not always wear away any cattiness (or vanity) in a gay man!

i am not an ageist, though i must admit that ive never been romantically attached to anyone 10 years older than me. the oldest guy i slept with was 55 but he looked 40.anyway...

in my little gay family, i adore my french "tante"; the "madame" as we affectionally call him. of a certain age, he has anecdotes (tales from morocco and beyond!!!) that can make sailors plug their ears up at the bawdiness of it all. has lived life a "spinster" (his words, not mine) since his last heartbreak. he thinks dalida is a goddess. neurotic and dramatic. he is french after all.

then there's my ex-diplomat friend who would invite me over to his sprawling new house and we wouls just talk over port and pastries. he would tell me about his life when he was a diplomat in indonesia and the houseboys he used to have.

ALL my older friends had given me little gems of advice which i treasure. giving me pointers on how i should lead my life, giving me tips on how i should plan my career. i often turn to my retired lawyer friend for legal advice. i often turn to my french "aunt" after every breakup,(we would then agree than all men are pigs, he would fix me a stiff drink and we would watch bette davis together)

yup. love my older friends to bits. the funny things is, ive met more than a few older gay men who have told me that they are through with younger guys. they are now looking for more matured gentlemen to share their lives with. what do u think of that?

Edited January 23, 2006 by boybrat

[Ijustwannateach]

BB, I've been thinking of exactly the same thing myself (no more guys younger than me), so I don't blame those older fellers!

ChrisP, you can be as old as you wanna be, but you don't look your age!

And PB's probably one of the wildest guys I know of any age at the moment....

One of these days I gotta go meet you, PTExpat, and see about those buns!

One of the first gay bars I went to in Japan was owned by a man who was, if I recall correctly, 73 years old- but he was *well* fit (I think he also owned a gym). He had bright, entrancing eyes and a great smile, and he wasn't a smoker (a real rarity in older Japanese men). He told me his interest in foreigners began when he was a child and the American occupation moved in after the war- the handsome soldiers were giving out candy to the impoverished Japanese kids.

He gave me a great Shiatsu massage that I felt in my neck for days later (in a good way).

He was married, with children- he told me I reminded him of his son- and he said he told his wife he was an office worker with a night job, but that she probably knew what he was up to- you just don't talk about those things openly among older folks in Japan.

I went home with him to his apartment downtown (where I presume he lived most of his gay life) and we slept together, though we did not have sex. It's still a pleasant memory for me today.

"Steven"

[boybrat]

funny you should mention that, ijwt. cos i noticed that quite a handful of older gay men were once married. when i asked one of my friends, j if he had a happy marriage. he laughed and told me that he had a wonderful marriage. he and his wife had 2 beautiful chlidren together. he told me he had no regrets whatsoever getting married. he also told me that he fell in love with another man when he was in the raf, but decorum told them that it was wrong. sighhh...

then i asked him why he decided to turn gay at such a late age. he looked at me, smiled and said that sometimes things just...happen. and that was that.

[Buki]

With all honesty, I don't have any friend who is mature in the "age" sense. Back home, we still associate with our contemporaries. Older gay men hang out with their commrades and the young ones with their kind.

We seldom see this kind of situation and its just the mentality of most Filipinos that I cannot understand. Personally, I am not sure how to function if I have friends who are 20 or 30 years older than me. But in my group of friends (most of them are 18 to 23), I am considered the oldest, this part I understand about being the mature type within friends. You are the person who listens and gives advices to the inexperienced soul and gives a little light of hope to their own delimmas. I sometimes feel like I am responsible of their wellfare, since in our friendship breeds so much support for each other. Oh God, I even nag and berate if they do something stupid, and they seemed to appreciate that. So when I left, they were really saddened with the loss and I was saddened with my loss also. With this thought, if I had someone who is a mature friend, irregardless of age, I would be really lucky to have that person.

In our lifestyle as gay men, we need people who supports, who listens and who is wise enough to show us the way. So my salute to the mature men out there, may you be 20, 30, 40 or older, tight or sagging buns.. we raise our glasses to all of you!

[Connor McCloud]

BB, I've been thinking of exactly the same thing myself (no more guys younger than me), so I don't blame those older fellers!

ChrisP, you can be as old as you wanna be, but you don't look your age!

And PB's probably one of the wildest guys I know of any age at the moment....

One of these days I gotta go meet you, PTExpat, and see about those buns!

One of the first gay bars I went to in Japan was owned by a man who was, if I recall correctly, 73 years old- but he was *well* fit (I think he also owned a gym). He had bright, entrancing eyes and a great smile, and he wasn't a smoker (a real rarity in older Japanese men). He told me his interest in foreigners began when he was a child and the American occupation moved in after the war- the handsome soldiers were giving out candy to the impoverished Japanese kids.

He gave me a great Shiatsu massage that I felt in my neck for days later (in a good way).

He was married, with children- he told me I reminded him of his son- and he said he told his wife he was an office worker with a night job, but that she probably knew what he was up to- you just don't talk about those things openly among older folks in Japan.

I went home with him to his apartment downtown (where I presume he lived most of his gay life) and we slept together, though we did not have sex. It's still a pleasant memory for me today.

"Steven"

you reminded him of his son and you ended up in bed together,strange

[Ijustwannateach]

That's right... now back under your bridge.

[toptuan]

That's right... now back under your bridge.

Before he goes back under the bridge, can we explore this thought for just a moment?

I've noticed most of the gay couples (which include a significant age gap) have a strong father/son element in the relationship, aside from the physical relationship. There's frequently a lot of mentoring, sheltering, protecting, comforting, etc. that is reminiscent of an attentive father. The younger guy often plays that "son" part happily, and seems fulfilled by it. Of course, a lot of that is naturally inherent in two people of significant age/experience gaps sharing a life together. But I can't get away from strong father/son similarities.

In my own experience with my LTR, I feel a strong "fatherly" response. We're maybe 60/40 (father-son/lovers) in our emotional responses to each other, and we're both happy and comfortable with that. And, that ratio does vary often. An external crises in one person's life might boost the 60 percent side of responses, and an argument will definitely boost the 40 percent side as each gets on their "high horse."

Yes, to the hetero community, drawing this comparison may smack of impropriety in the mix of emotional responses between two people. But hey, we're complicated, anyway (so I'm told).

I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts/observations on this.

[Connor McCloud]

Get back under my bridge...? <deleted> ??

I don't see how anyone ,gay or straight,would want to go to bed with someone that reminded them of their son / daughter.

In fact , to me , the word incest springs to mind.

If finding all this a bit strange makes me a troll I will happily sit under my bridge whilst the serious posters keep it in the family.

[Totster]

I wish I hadn't read this topic now... maybe I just don't understand..

I wonder how long this kind of topic would last in the General section of the forum ?

totster

[Connor McCloud]

I wish I hadn't read this topic now... maybe I just don't understand..

I wonder how long this kind of topic would last in the General section of the forum ?

totster

there's no more room under my bridge , begone

[Ijustwannateach]

CMC, I think you took my post a bit too literally. Go take a cold shower, or something.

Toptuan, your observations are correct- if there's a big age difference one partner usually winds up mentoring or nurturing the other in ways that people of the same age wouldn't be able to do or willing to accept. That extra part of the relationship is one of the benefits for both in a couple with such a large age difference.

"Steven"

I wish I hadn't read this topic now... maybe I just don't understand..

I wonder how long this kind of topic would last in the General section of the forum ?

totster

What's the problem? It's also true in the case of a much older husband and a young wife that the husband often also falls in a parenting role for the wife. We're talking emotional/relationship *ROLES* here, people, not fantasy incest figures. Get a grip. It appears the troll has done well in this thread.

"Steven"

[Totster]

They are cute and flirty and handsome in their own way, and I only wish I could harness my libido in that direction, which it steadfastly refuses to go.

but not as attractive as a smooth firm ass compared to a saggy wrinkled one!

Hey Dump, just concentrate on other "parts." The new perspective might grow on you.

Thanks Steven.. do I qualify, at 53..??!

When I finally accepted that I was now a "mature" gay man.. my supply of younger guys that I'm attracted to (in California) slowly dried up to the few who DO appreciate what an older man has to give.

That's when I discovered asians, and their relative lack of age-bias.

THEN I discovered Thailand..!! Whoo-hoo.

PTExpat is right.

ChrisP

He was married, with children- he told me I reminded him of his son-

I went home with him to his apartment downtown (where I presume he lived most of his gay life) and we slept together, though we did not have sex. It's still a pleasant memory for me today.

"Steven"

Hmmm... "We're talking emotional/relationship *ROLES* here, people"

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

To add to the above, as an example, when I was in high school one of the older male teachers (who is emphatically not gay- I later came out to him and he was completely accepting) became very close to me in a mentoring relationship. He's still a very good friend of mine today, and I think he regards me as another son (and I think of him as the educated father I never had). This element of relationships can exist as well between partners between whom there is a large age difference.

"Steven"

[Connor McCloud]

To add to the above, as an example, when I was in high school one of the older male teachers (who is emphatically not gay- I later came out to him and he was completely accepting) became very close to me in a mentoring relationship. He's still a very good friend of mine today, and I think he regards me as another son (and I think of him as the educated father I never had). This element of relationships can exist as well between partners between whom there is a large age difference.

"Steven"

But you never ended up in bed together.There is a difference.

[Buki]

there's a big age difference one partner usually winds up mentoring or nurturing the other in ways that people of the same age wouldn't be able to do or willing to accept. "Steven"

"Steven"

It doesn't really boil down to age. Anyone can be in that role as the nurturing / mentoring partner and it can even be vice versa. Its basically the same, with who becomes the masculine and the feminine in certain situations. I don't think that you need to be really old to become a nurturing individual. It's an inate quality of man. There are older men who never gives a <deleted> with what is happening around him . Whilst there is a young person who is willing to take on that responsibility in a relationship.

Me and my partner take turns of mentoring each other. Because each person can definitely share something out of experience and knowledge. And not all person had the complete monopoly of experience and knowledge to share. So it is irregardless of age.

[Ijustwannateach]

Sigh. At least the gay members seem to understand what I'm talking about. Maybe this thread is too "mature" for the straight ones.

"Steven"

It doesn't really boil down to age. Anyone can be in that role as the nurturing / mentoring partner and it can even be vice versa. Its basically the same, with who becomes the masculine and the feminine in certain situations. I don't think that you need to be really old to become a nurturing individual. It's an inate quality of man. There are older men who never gives a <deleted> with what is happening around him . Whilst there is a young person who is willing to take on that responsibility in a relationship.

Me and my partner take turns of mentoring each other. Because each person can definitely share something out of experience and knowledge. And not all person had the complete monopoly of experience and knowledge to share. So it is irregardless of age.

Good points, Buki!

Edited January 24, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Totster]

Sigh. At least the gay members seem to understand what I'm talking about. Maybe this thread is too "mature" for the straight ones.

"Steven"

It's not about the thread being too "mature" IJWT.

I'm just wondering what would happen if someone was to post in other parts of the forum ...

"I met a girl in Bangkok, she reminded me of my daughter.. we slept together"..

not an image the forum wants to portray i think... probably be closed...

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

I *think* I made a point of it being the *other* guy who thought *I* (age late twenties at the time) was like his son, and that we *didn't* have sex, so no, I don't really see the comparison.

*Sigh*...

"Steven"

[Totster]

I *think* I made a point of it being the *other* guy who thought *I* (age late twenties at the time) was like his son, and that we *didn't* have sex, so no, I don't really see the comparison.

*Sigh*...

"Steven"

So.. as long as you don't have sex ...it's ok to meet someone... them thinking you remind them of one of their children, and then go back to their place and sleep together ? Did you put a divider down the middle of the bed ?

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

Maybe you need to take a cold shower, too... don't take what I (or he) said so literally.

"Steven"

I think I'm abandoning this thread to the bored kids for awhile... sorry, guys, I had the best intentions- will come back when they've found other toys to play with...

"Steven"

[toptuan]

Sigh. At least the gay members seem to understand what I'm talking about. Maybe this thread is too "mature" for the straight ones.

"Steven"

It's not about the thread being too "mature" IJWT.

I'm just wondering what would happen if someone was to post in other parts of the forum ...

"I met a girl in Bangkok, she reminded me of my daughter.. we slept together"..

not an image the forum wants to portray i think... probably be closed...

totster

You're probably right Totser. But that's not what this thread is saying:

* * * * *

First of all, when you say "we slept", you're implying sex. That's not what took place in IJWT's story. I know it's hard to fathom, but it's possible for a gay guy to hug and even cuddle someone else as an act of human intimacy without sex. [And by "sex" I mean penetration and/ or manipulation of the genitals. I hope I'm not getting too explicit.] I know, the lines get fine, here, but you are blanketing the thoughts and actions of many posters of this forum with a general observation that is not that universal nor simple.

If you've had a young primary-age son, he might have crawled into your bed at one time, thrown his arm over you, and rested his head on your shoulder as an act of human intimacy. You might have returned his act with a squeeze, hug or cuddle. Hardly innapropriate. That scenario would be pretty normal in family life, and even more so in a non-western setting.

I think there's a lot of interraction between gay guys on this level, especially in a relationship where there's an age gap. That's part of the father-son emotional responses, I sense.

* * * * *

Secondly, "reminded me of my daughter..." in your statement above, implies that, as one is having sex, he is thinking of his own daughter." If that's the case, I agree with you. If that's what's running through an older lover's head it's a mental act of incest. (Albeit in this forum's case, you are comparing it to "reminded me of my son"). I don't think you'd get any arguments from any one in here.

* * * * *

The person-to-person interraction in a gay relationship (where there's a significant age gap) often includes significant father/son type emotional roles. It might even extend to the physical acts of affection which are non-sexual in nature. Any problem there?

But it is my opinion, when it comes to sex, that side of the relationship is out the door. You're not fantasizing about your son when engaged in that part of the relationship, and shouldn't be.

I think every gay guy in this forum knows exactly what I'm talking about and can easily distinguish the differences in the emotional and physical responses that go on between two men. If you're "wired" differently, I'm sure it's hard to distinguish, and sounds lumped together exactly like you've done in your comments.

A case in point is to peruse the threads about "Brokeback Mountain" on various forums and websites. It's hilarious (sometimes pitiful) to compare the points of view and emotional responses which seem to be separated by the Grand Canyon. Straight guys keep insisting that these are just two blokes who've been separated from their wives too long, and just need sex. Any kind of sex. Gays keep glorifying the deep relationship they see between two cowboy lovers. The ladies keep vascillating between the two reactions, usually depending on their own marital status. Few people seem to find common ground or understanding between the sexes and orientations about this movie. I see a similar pattern in this thread.

You know the book, Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus? Well, let it be known that all gays aren't from Uranus. But they're definitely not from Mars or Venus either.

* * * * *

On another point, I'm not sure if I would have used Steven's description "mature", because it implies that your view or understanding is immature. At the risk of putting additional words in his mouth, I would submit that the point he's making is this: Most gay guys are thinking on a totally "other" level, and it seems evident that you really haven't gotten inside their heads on this one.

Our level isn't "higher" or more mature, it's just "different." We' ve tried to explain it, although not perfectly nor consistently, I'll be the first to admit. But, we'd like you to understand. By you coming over to this forum, I believe you'd really like to understand. Don't know if that's starting to happen, but thanks for giving us a shot at it.

[OK, forum regulars, I've used "us" quite a bit. If I'm not speaking for you, pipe up!]

Edited January 24, 2006 by toptuan