In Praise Of Older Men

[Totster]

Maybe you need to take a cold shower, too... don't take what I (or he) said so literally.

"Steven"

I think I'm abandoning this thread to the bored kids for awhile... sorry, guys, I had the best intentions- will come back when they've found other toys to play with...

"Steven"

See.. thats the problem with this section of the forum, when someone has a differing opinion, a valid point or offers a point of view, it's deemed as trolling and comments like those above get posted, and in some circumstances posts get deleted and people go on holiday !

Normally it's the same kind of comments (as general banter) that would be found in similar topics in other parts of the forum that are deemed to be offending, maybe you should take some of your own advice IJWT and "don't take what I (or they) said so literally."

totster

Sigh. At least the gay members seem to understand what I'm talking about. Maybe this thread is too "mature" for the straight ones.

"Steven"

It's not about the thread being too "mature" IJWT.

I'm just wondering what would happen if someone was to post in other parts of the forum ...

"I met a girl in Bangkok, she reminded me of my daughter.. we slept together"..

not an image the forum wants to portray i think... probably be closed...

totster

You're probably right Totser. But that's not what this thread is saying:

* * * * *

First of all, when you say "we slept", you're implying sex. That's not what took place in IJWT's story. I know it's hard to fathom, but it's possible for a gay guy to hug and even cuddle someone else as an act of human intimacy without sex. [And by "sex" I mean penetration and or manipulation of the genitals. I hope I'm not getting too explicit.] I know, the lines get fine, here, but you are blanketing the thoughts and actions of many posters of this forum with a general observation that is not that universal nor simple.

If you've had a young primary-age son, he might have crawled into your bed at one time, thrown his arm over you, and rested his head on your shoulder as an act of human intimacy. You might have returned his act with a squeeze, hug or cuddle. Hardly innapropriate. That scenario would be pretty normal in family life, and even more so in a non-western setting.

I think there's a lot of interraction between gay guys on this level, especially in a relationship where there's an age gap. That's part of the father-son emotional responses, I sense.

* * * * *

Secondly, "reminded me of my daughter..." in your statement above, implies that, as one is having sex, he is thinking of his own daughter." If that's the case, I agree with you. If that's what's running through an older lover's head it's a mental act of incest. (Albeit in this forum's case, you are comparing it to "reminded me of my son"). I don't think you'd get any arguments from any one in here.

* * * * *

The person-to-person interraction in a gay relationship (where there's a significant age gap) often includes significant father/son type emotional roles. It might even extend to the physical acts of affection which are non-sexual in nature. Any problem there?

But it is my opinion, when it comes to sex, that side of the relationship is out the door. You're not fantasizing about your son when engaged in that part of the relationship, and shouldn't be.

I think every gay guy in this forum knows exactly what I'm talking about and can easily distinguish the differences in the emotional and physical responses that go on between two men. If you're "wired" differently, I'm sure it's hard to distinguish, and sounds lumped together exactly like you've done in your comments.

A case in point is to peruse the threads about "Brokeback Mountain" on various forums and websites. It's hilarious (sometimes pitiful) to compare the points of view and emotional responses which seem to be separated by the Grand Canyon. Straight guys keep insisting that these are just two blokes who've been separated from their wives too long, and just need sex. Any kind of sex. Gays keep glorifying the deep relationship they see between two cowboy lovers. The ladies keep vascillating between the two reactions, usually depending on their own marital status. Few people seem to find common ground or understanding between the sexes and orientations about this movie. I see a similar pattern in this thread.

You know the book, Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus? Well, let it be known that all gays aren't from Uranus. But they're definitely not from Mars or Venus either.

I'm not sure if I would have used Steven's description "mature", because it implies that your view or understanding is immature. At the risk of putting additional words in his mouth, I would submit that the point he's making is this: Most gay guys are thinking on a totally "other" level, and it seems evident that you really haven't gotten inside their heads on this one.

Our level isn't "higher" or more mature, it's just "different." We' ve tried to explain it, although not perfectly nor consistently, I'll be the first to admit. But, we'd like you to understand. By you coming over to this forum, I believe you'd really like to understand. Don't know if that's starting to happen, but thanks for giving us a shot at it.

Nice post toptuan... like I said earlier ..

maybe I just don't understand..

totster

[toptuan]

maybe I just don't understand..

Well, at least you were willing to listen...

Hopefully, it narrows the Grand Canyon just a little more.

[Boon Mee]

You gotta be real bored to go trolling in the Gay Forum in hopes of winding more folks up...

[Totster]

You gotta be real bored to go trolling in the Gay Forum in hopes of winding more folks up...

Woaaaa... Boony, a post without mentioning politics... must have hurt !

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

Totster: It's a sore point when people come on to a gay forum and start hinting about anything even close to pedophilia and incest, which we are unfairly connected with far too often (as these are mainly straight crimes). Don't expect a playful reaction. And that really is all from me for now. Thanks for the interp, Toptuan, that was probably what I would say if I were in a polite mood, but I just ain't right now.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

You gotta be real bored to go trolling in the Gay Forum in hopes of winding more folks up...

Bored too, Boony?

Our dating service is at www.thailovelinks.com

[Totster]

Totster: It's a sore point when people come on to a gay forum and start hinting about anything even close to pedophilia and incest, which we are unfairly connected with far too often (as these are mainly straight crimes). Don't expect a playful reaction. And that really is all from me for now. Thanks for the interp, Toptuan, that was probably what I would say if I were in a polite mood, but I just ain't right now.

"Steven"

No.. I wasn't hinting at either.

The point I was trying to make is that the subject matter within the topic wasn't what I liked reading, and also some of what was posted could easily be misunderstood by readers of this public forum. If I was someone new coming to look at the forum i'd wonder what the h3ll this is all about. You have to understand it is not just gay people who can read this section.

I also hinted that IMO if a similar topic was made in other parts of the forum it may have been closed by now !

totster

[Boon Mee]

You gotta be real bored to go trolling in the Gay Forum in hopes of winding more folks up...

Bored too, Boony?

Our dating service is at www.thailovelinks.com

Not at all toptuan - thanks for the 'heads-up' tho...

[toptuan]

No.. I wasn't hinting at either.

The point I was trying to make is that the subject matter within the topic wasn't what I liked reading, and also some of what was posted could easily be misunderstood by readers of this public forum. If I was someone new coming to look at the forum i'd wonder what the h3ll this is all about. You have to understand it is not just gay people who can read this section.

I also hinted that IMO if a similar topic was made in other parts of the forum it may have been closed by now !

totster

Point well-taken, Tot. It's a warning that we better be pretty-darn clear in our language here to cast our vote on the side of propriety in the forum.

At the same time, it's a reminder for our less-frequent readers not to jump to conclusions before reading an entire thread carefully, and be willing to carry on with a discussion until the issues are resolved or clear. Happy you chose to do the latter.

Edited January 24, 2006 by toptuan

[PeaceBlondie]

It's hard to know where to draw the moderating line, but I'll side with IJWT (and I don't always do that) about kiddie fiddling and incest. Any post that even smacks of accusations of gay men generally being child molesters or incestors is going to be attacked fiercely. 90% of all child molestation and pedophilia is committed by criminal STRAIGHT men. However, it's the standard of gay-bashing to act as if only gay men do it, and that most gay men do it.

Totster, I agree that a few of our more prolific posters in this forum are a tad too sensitive to opposing opinions, too prone to accuse a newbie of being a troll, etc. Being gay doesn't give us special rights to be super-sensitive to opposition.

But Totster, maybe this has been addressed already, but I don't think Stephen's post about the older gentleman was equivalent to a post, ""I met a girl in Bangkok, she reminded me of my daughter.. we slept together". As already noted, Stephen's story was that they slumbered in the same bed, but they didn't have sex. And neither man in the story seemed to be sexually motivated by incestual thoughts. If any post indicates that, any moderator who sees it should delete it.

While we're complaining, may I bitch that some posters are just too bitchy?

[ProThaiExpat]

Just catching up from my early post in this thread and it would seem to me that Totster went astray when he read into IJWTs post that one of the parties was "thinking of his son" during sexual activity.

This whole thread has been about exploring the complexities of gay realtionships between older and younger men and the emotional components involved therein. Whether it is a younger brother, nephew, son or other older-younger component, the emotional component is what is being spoken of in this thread, not the sexual.

Those of us who have mentored others know of what I speak. It is not always age dependent, but usually is. It is most often not sexual. When I make love to myyounger partner, it is largely sexual and in no way involves thoughts of having sex with my offspring. In fact, unless we are sick, sex with ones offspring is a total turnoff and a disgusting thought.

However, there is definitely an emotional component of mentoring, parental caring or "taking care" of the younger person in the older with younger realtionships, but likewise there is a "taking care" component of the older by the younger that could be characterized on an emotional level as being of a child to a parent, but far from sexual. I know the few times I have thought of sex between my parents I was disgusted with the thought and rarely went there. I suspect, younger men with older men don't think of sex with a parent when making love to their older lover.

It would be nice if we could get back on topic and discuss the emotional issues between age gapped gay pairings and leave sex talk out of it.

[Ijustwannateach]

Amen!

[chuchok]

Benjamin Franklin wrote the piece known to us as "Old Mistresses' Apologue" some things you might find interesting if it was written praising older men.funnily enough, my mother always told me to marry an older girl.Her reasoning being that my partner needed to be older and wiser to handle me.Consequently, I married a bird 9 years younger and it only lasted 2 years.

June 25. 1745

My dear Friend,

I know of no Medicine fit to diminish the violent natural Inclinations you mention; and if I did, I think I should not communicate it to you. Marriage is the proper Remedy. It is the most natural State of Man, and therefore the State in which you are most likely to find solid Happiness. Your Reasons against entring into it at present, appear to me not well-founded. The circumstantial Advantages you have in View by postponing it, are not only uncertain, but they are small in comparison with that of the Thing itself, the being married and settled. It is the Man and Woman united that make the compleat human Being. Separate, she wants his Force of Body and Strength of Reason; he, her Softness, Sensibility and acute Discernment. Together they are more likely to succeed in the World. A single Man has not nearly the Value he would have in that State of Union. He is an incomplete Animal. He resembles the odd Half of a Pair of Scissars. If you get a prudent healthy Wife, your Industry in your Profession, with her good Economy, will be a Fortune sufficient.

But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:

1. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor'd with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.

2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.

3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc'd may be attended with much Inconvenience.

4. Because thro' more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin'd to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.

5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.

6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.

7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.

8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!

Thus much for my Paradox. But still I advise you to marry directly; being sincerely Your affectionate Friend.

[zzap]

I don't know how one can discuss this without considering sexual attraction.

And I don't understand how pedophilia and incest got mixed into this.

This is yet another theme, where, at closer inspection, gay relationships aren't much different from straight ones. How many friendships are based on either the woman or man reminding the other of a son/daughter, mother/father?

When sex does come into it (and I don't see why not, without considering personal circumstances at the moment), the projection of parental concerns is a standard issue, even with similar age couples. One cannot entirely avoid this.

End of rant.

[toptuan]

And I don't understand how pedophilia and incest got mixed into this.

It was the projection from a couple of posters onto the regular contributors to this forum and thread. Which, the more I think about it, the angrier I get.

End of my short rant.

Edited January 24, 2006 by toptuan

[ChrisP]

I teach Univ Grad Students (not children.. although they behave that way sometimes..!)

Part of the reason I teach, I think, is that I feel a need to pass on my knowledge and skills to the younger generation of my career.. Mentoring, if you like.

I also feel that this personality trait plays over into my personal life too.. I do think that's one of the reasons I am attracted to the younger generation of gay men... although the object of my attention must also be attracted to the older generation too for it to work!

ChrisP

[Buki]

With all this talk about dads and sons, uncles, nephews and the like, is making me dizzy.

Though I thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts of each members, but there are points that needs to be taken objectively and maybe a little of subjective sharing of feelings also.

I for one, is against incest. It is derogatory to conclude a relationship of older men and younger men as incestual.

To play safe, in relationship like these, they have their own reasons for having such. Plenty actually. Could be the attraction of the folly of youth. Lets not be hipocrites please, we are attracted to the youthful vibrance of young men. We think about how we used to be when we were at that age. The younger partner, needing the support, whatever it is, may it be finacially, morally... Or the absence of a mentoring figure.... so on and so forth.

But the problem with this discussion is that we are so focused to compartmentalize everything into categories.

Relatioships are made because we choose to. Its about two individuals who openly share whatever they have to each other. and there isn't a perfect relationship. And this could happen to straight and gay couples.

So we need to stop compartmentalize everything.... young, old, rich, poor, effem, fem, man, woman, daddies, sons, - the very reason why some relationships are not accepted because we still insist that our relationships to be like that, while for other people, it is viewed as beyond normal (even for gay people).

I am sorry that some of us here love to praise ourselves of the things we can do. But the truth is, anybody can do it. I said it before in the thread, that no one has the monopoly of experience and knowledge. It has no preferences. It is but natural for anybody to take care, to mentor, to nurture another person. Relationships are supposed to be symbiotic, both takes care of each other.

-------------------------------------------------------

Back in my country, There is chat channel that is entitled "Gay dads for son". It is where gay young men meet older men. The often reasons why some of gay filipinos wants a daddy because of financial support. They milk them dry, making up stories about their families and all the unfortunities. Or a ticket out of the country. I have a friend who is in daddy son relationship with the German. I always told him that stop doing it because of KARMA. He just smiled at me said, "Whatever, as long he takes me out of the country and when I am there, I am going to divorce him and look for somebody who is younger. "

Its just one of the many sad stories back home. I guess Filipinos are notorious for that.

[Totster]

It's hard to know where to draw the moderating line, but I'll side with IJWT (and I don't always do that) about kiddie fiddling and incest. Any post that even smacks of accusations of gay men generally being child molesters or incestors is going to be attacked fiercely. 90% of all child molestation and pedophilia is committed by criminal STRAIGHT men. However, it's the standard of gay-bashing to act as if only gay men do it, and that most gay men do it.

Totster, I agree that a few of our more prolific posters in this forum are a tad too sensitive to opposing opinions, too prone to accuse a newbie of being a troll, etc. Being gay doesn't give us special rights to be super-sensitive to opposition.

But Totster, maybe this has been addressed already, but I don't think Stephen's post about the older gentleman was equivalent to a post, ""I met a girl in Bangkok, she reminded me of my daughter.. we slept together". As already noted, Stephen's story was that they slumbered in the same bed, but they didn't have sex. And neither man in the story seemed to be sexually motivated by incestual thoughts. If any post indicates that, any moderator who sees it should delete it.

While we're complaining, may I bitch that some posters are just too bitchy?

Points taken, and well done for not moderating this topic any more.

It was the projection from a couple of posters onto the regular contributors to this forum and thread. Which, the more I think about it, the angrier I get.

End of my short rant.

Please don't be annoyed toputan. My main aim in posting was to show the kinds of post I would expect to see if I posted similar comments in the general section that are seen posted here.

It annoys me sometimes that somebody can post a throw away comment in this section, and instead of ignoring it or replying in the same manner, that comment can be overeacted to totally.

In fact I'm quite pleased with the comments I made, this has become a very interesting topic to read, and a lively debate.

Regarding the IJWT's sleeping in the same bed comment. I stand by my reference, I'm just trying to imagine the reaction I would get even if I posted "I met a girl in Bangkok, she reminded me of my daughter.. we slept together, but didn't have sex".

Now... I kinda understood what IJWT was getting at in the first place, but comments like that are so easily misinterpreted.

Ok... enough from me... and back to a comment from ProThaiExpat

It would be nice if we could get back on topic and discuss the emotional issues between age gapped gay pairings and leave sex talk out of it.

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

Toptuan, perhaps you should realise that just as what we may write may be read by the non-gay majority of this forum, what you write will be read by the gay majority of this subforum. So your throw-away remarks may not have the same resonance here as among an audience, for example, of straight good-ol'-boys who revel in politically incorrect jokes.

Part of the point of having a gay section is to give us a safe space to talk about issues that concern us without having to unreasonably edit our thoughts for the sake of queasy straights, and to be protected somewhat from the less sympathetic remarks of non-gays, whether deliberately insensitive or otherwise.

I should point out that this thread was almost entirely non-sexual- with a few remarks and jokes about physical condition of older men- until Connor and you- both straight posters, I presume- introduced the connotation. None of the gays seemed confused about this. So perhaps it is not our understanding which needs to be improved, as after all it is our section of the forum.

You're welcome to all the non-sexual posts you want in the non-gay sections of the forum, too. There're no differences, as you are trying hard to make the case for.

"Steven"

[Totster]

Toptuan, perhaps you should realise that just as what we may write may be read by the non-gay majority of this forum, what you write will be read by the gay majority of this subforum. So your throw-away remarks may not have the same resonance here as among an audience, for example, of straight good-ol'-boys who revel in politically incorrect jokes.

Part of the point of having a gay section is to give us a safe space to talk about issues that concern us without having to unreasonably edit our thoughts for the sake of queasy straights, and to be protected somewhat from the less sympathetic remarks of non-gays, whether deliberately insensitive or otherwise.

I should point out that this thread was almost entirely non-sexual- with a few remarks and jokes about physical condition of older men- until Connor and you- both straight posters, I presume- introduced the connotation. None of the gays seemed confused about this. So perhaps it is not our understanding which needs to be improved, as after all it is our section of the forum.

You're welcome to all the non-sexual posts you want in the non-gay sections of the forum, too. There're no differences, as you are trying hard to make the case for.

"Steven"

I'm guessing this was for me.

BTW.. everyone on the forum is subjected to pathetic remarks at some time or other, but people have the capacity to deal with them.. posts in here are no different.

No one is saying edit your thoughts, but maybe put some thought into what you are posting

as after all it is our section of the forum.

Hmmm... it's a public forum, anyone may post their thoughts here...

totster

[toptuan]

Buki said...

But the problem with this discussion is that we are so focused to compartmentalize everything into categories...So we need to stop compartmentalize everything.... young, old, rich, poor, effem, fem, man, woman, daddies, sons, - the very reason why some relationships are not accepted because we still insist that our relationships to be like that, while for other people, it is viewed as beyond normal (even for gay people).

I get your point and appreciate your sentiment, Buki. But, IMHO, the real world sometimes forces us to compartmentalize our discussion (and even thinking): just look at the systems of laws, branches of sociology, anthropology, etc. You can't get away from it.

In this thread we ended up having to deal with a couple of posters' broad paintbrushes by segementing the discussion into bites (yes, compartments) they hopefully could handle (and didn't seem to be doing well with it). It was necessary to show that their point was not our point. Of course, you realize this; however, thanks for elevating our thoughts to the bigger picture.

By the way, I really enjoy every one of your posts. You have some great insights and experiences in your treasure-bag! I've had a few Filipino friends over the years (ALL of them, warm, caring people) but your posts/insights have greatly enriched my knowledge of your cultural background. Thanks for your regular contributions! (OK, now you can send the 10,000-Baht cheque of appreciation to 95-11 Soi 10, Bhuang Lam....)

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan

[Ijustwannateach]

Oops, sorry Toptuan and Totster- temporary dyslexia there- you're right, Totster, that post was for you.

Totster, all of the advice in your recent post could just as easily be directed back to you. And no one's tried to stop you posting what you post. You haven't broken any forum rules. But there's no guarantee that people here will *like* or *agree with* your posts, either, and that's what you seem so astonished by- so don't be astonished at that, is what I'm saying- not don't post.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

Please don't be annoyed toputan. My main aim in posting was to show the kinds of post I would expect to see if I posted similar comments in the general section that are seen posted here.

Well Tot, I was annoyed. I believe I got your point. It concerned me that you didn't get mine--you know, with my crystal-clear writing style and iron-clad logic.

It annoys me sometimes that somebody can post a throw away comment in this section, and instead of ignoring it or replying in the same manner...

Is that what your comment was? Not to be taken seriously? We've wasted all this time and cyber-ink?

In fact I'm quite pleased with the comments I made...

Wait, I'm confused...

* * * * *

OK, just a little good-natured jibbing. Regard my previous as "throw-away" comments.

...we slept together, but didn't have sex".

Hmmm, the first person I ever heard say that was a straight male friend in college who had a platonic relationship with a female friend. Is it really possible??? Naw, two people and one bed always requires going all the way, doesn't it?

Now... I kinda understood what IJWT was getting at in the first place, but comments like that are so easily misinterpreted.

OK, maybe there is hope. I see some thawing.

Ok... enough from me... and back to a comment from ProThaiExpat

It would be nice if we could get back on topic and discuss the emotional issues between age gapped gay pairings and leave sex talk out of it.

totster

Hear hear!

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan