Visitor Visa And Council Tax; Uk

[pzh41]

Hi all

My good lady is over here on a visitor visa until December :-)

I have just moved house and notified Coventry Council of my new address and they have stated that I am no longer eligible for single occupancy because of my visitor. Is this right ?

I was under the impression that Visitors were exempt and hence I would still get the Single Occupancy reduction ?

[bobrussell]

You are still eligible! They are wrong.

I checked with New Forest District Council and originally they said I would lose the single occupancy discount but someone more senior confirmed that visitors are not considered for council tax purposes.

You have the most perfect proof possible that your good lady is a visitor - it says so on her visa! She is not normally resident at the address so does not count!

Get back to them and talk to someone more senior!

[7by7]

As you are asking about Coventry I am assuming that you are in the UK and have amended the topic title accordingly. PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING.

If you mean a different Coventry, there are several in the USA for example, say so and I will change the topic title again.

Assuming you do mean the UK; as she is living in the property for several months and making use of council services such as rubbish collection whilst there then there is an argument to say that you are not entitled to the discount during her stay; but to be honest I have no idea of the law in this regard.

[yorkieb]

If you pay council tax that makes you eligable to vote..............as a vistor on a tourist visa you are not eligable to vote therefore exempt from council tax. That is the legal position I believe. However if you are planning to go through all the stages up to ILR as we did. We chose to to pay to prevent some jumped up twerp rejecting future applications based on this technical issue which we would then have to appeal and go down the JR route creating more expense and distress.

[UbonOz]

How do they know you have a visitor?

[7by7]

If you pay council tax that makes you eligable to vote..............

Eligibility to vote has nothing to do with paying council tax.

Neither my wife nor my daughter are named on my council tax bill, yet they are both British citizens, both on the electoral roll and both eligible to vote.

Many people who do pay council tax are not eligible to vote; foreign residents, for example.

Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?

To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:

• be 18 years of age or over on polling day
  
• be resident in the UK
  
• be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
  
• 
  not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote
  

[SantiSuk]

Given that she is your wife and her visitor status is actually quite long term - 4 months does not meet the vernacular understanding of 'visitor' and that title on a passport will probably not nix specific regulations on Council Tax - do not assume that getting the single person occupancy discount is quite the slam dunk otrhers are painting it here.

If it was me I would not go to the Council until I had researched the local Council's website (not likely to give you a definitive answer but sets you up with a better understanding) and read the Council Tax Regulations. A short cut would be to contact the local Citizens Advice Bureau.

[bangkockney]

Go back to your council and explain that she is not "solely or mainly resident" in the UK - that's the acid test.

[pzh41]

First things first - The Council worker asked me direct if anyone else was living with me - so I explained fully the situation as I wasn't going to blatantly lie to them.

Just call the Council again - and they have confirmed that I am not eligible for the Single Occupancy because the Visit Visa is for 6 months with a return flight not until December.

I suppose in the whole scheme of things it is a fair comment but I was just a bit surprised by their stance - especially when the neighboring Council (Warwick) still gave me the discount. I do think that individual Councils set their own rules.

Still - you live and learn.

Thank you all very much for all your input.

[colinneil]

Visiters are only council tax free for 30 days, i had the same problem a few years ago with preston council.

[bobrussell]

Check:

http://www.legislati...2/14/section/11

It states that the council tax is based on two people resident at an address. Anyone with a visit visa cannot claim residence in the UK. If all parties are living in the UK a visitor does not change the status of single occupancy if they are paying council tax elsewhere. As a visitor is considered normally resident in another country I suspect this is posturing on the part of the local council to get more money.

Just tell them they are normally resident abroad and are visiting, quoting the above legislation and see what happens! The definitions are based on a number of things including

Unless there are new official rules I suspect the councils are making them up as they go! If anyone has more information I will happily stand corrected!

Bristol Council have guidance:

What factors are used when determining sole or main residence?

When establishing whether a property is someone’s sole or main residence we consider the following factors:

• The possession of all relevant dwellings, ie has the property been let, is it empty?

• The number of addresses at which the individual is resident at various times and the amount of time spent at each one over a specific period.

• Where the individual keeps most of their possessions.

• The ownership of furniture.

• The address at which the individual is registered for electoral and medical purposes.

• The address to which gas, electricity, water bills and notices of tax codings etc are sent.

• The sole or main residence of the individual’s immediate family (ie wife, husband, civil partner, dependant children).

• Where each member of the household works.

• Where the children (if any) go to school.

• Whether they have membership of local facilities.

• If the absence from one property is temporary, and/or there is a clear intention to return to one particular property.

• Where the individual considers their home to be.

• Any special or unusual feature in connection with the marriage or civil partnership.

A visitor has a permanent address abroad and presumably keeps most of his or her possessions there. Has a doctor there and not in the UK. Pays utility bills there and not here (they will not usually allow anyone with a visit visa to be put onto a utility bill).

Immediate family part may be a little inconvenient but can be argued especially if your partner has family and children abroad.

The temporary absence is from the non-UK address not the other way round!

All a bit long-winded but all can be used to argue the point. I made this enquiry to my council before my wife was granted settlement and I got a phone call from a senior member of staff telling me that a visitor does not change the discount even if they are here for a long visit!

Edited August 15, 2012 by bobrussell

[SantiSuk]

Check:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/11

It states that the council tax is based on two people resident at an address. Anyone with a visit visa cannot claim residence in the UK. If all parties are living in the UK a visitor does not change the status of single occupancy if they are paying council tax elsewhere. As a visitor is considered normally resident in another country I suspect this is posturing on the part of the local council to get more money.

Just tell them they are normally resident abroad and are visiting, quoting the above legislation and see what happens!

Unless there are new official rules I suspect the councils are making them up as they go!

I suspect it is posters on this thread who are making it up.

Liability to pay council tax - which the section of the Local Authority Act 1992 referred to here seems to be all about - does relate to "residence", but as far as I can see the section says nothing of relevance to discounts available to those who are residemt and liable to pay council tax. The OP is a resident and there is presumably no doubt he is liable to pay Council Tax. His wife is a visitor and not a resident and clearly not liable to pay Council Tax. End of story - nothing said about discounts, so all the postings linking resident status with discount entitlement are potentially off-beam. I suspect one must look elsewhere if one wants to know whether the resident council tax payer is entitled to a single occupancy (note - they do not say 'single residence') discount.

If you look at Schedule 1 to the Act it gives some clues that lead me to suspect (but I haven't the inclination to track it further) that discounts are probably up to the local council to set rules. The Schedule defines those that are "disregarded for purposes of discount" and goes on to list people in prison, students etc. Visitors are not included in that list but there is a last category "Persons of other descriptions". These are defined as "A person shall be disregarded for the purposes of discount on a particular day if: (a)on the day he falls within such description as may be prescribed; and (b)such conditions as may be prescribed are fulfilled...

Helpful huh? At which point I go back to my beer and leave it for others who may want to play lawyer :-)

I'm not claiming any authority whatsoever, just pointing out that it is dangerous to assume that authoritative-sounding posters actually have correct answers when it comes to matters legal. Don't go wading in quoting bits of irrelevant legislation OP. Better to research it thoroughly, ask CAB or ask the council what is their legal or rule-based support for whatever determination they are positing (in ascending order of laziness and descending order of likely effectiveness in gettong what you want!)

Edited August 15, 2012 by SantiSuk

[bobrussell]

My rather edited post is only to provide ammunition for the OP to fire at the council to maintain the single person allowance!!

I agree that the law does not give an easy, straight answer but my council were very clear that a visitor does not affect the discount. I was quite prepared to pay up for the whole lot until they told me not to!

A cold beer sounds a much better idea than a fight with the council!

[Eff1n2ret]

I'm not claiming any authority whatsoever, just pointing out that it is dangerous to assume that authoritative-sounding posters actually have correct answers when it comes to matters legal. Don't go wading in quoting bits of irrelevant legislation OP. Better to research it thoroughly, ask CAB or ask the council what is their legal or rule-based support for whatever determination they are positing (in ascending order of laziness and descending order of likely effectiveness in gettong what you want!)

I think you've made a very worthwhile point. My initial reaction to this thread was that it is nonsense to suggest that someone on a visit visa should be counted fo council tax purposes, but now I'm not so sure. The Local Government Finance Act linked by Bob Russell refers to "resident" or "residents of the dwelling", and such as Bristol Council apparently give a very specific definition of what a "resident" is. However, Coventry Council's guidance is here:-

http://www.coventry....oklet_2011-2012

- and page 8 refers merely to "adults living in your home". So in the absence of any other guidance, Coventry's council tax staff may well feel that the OP's wife is indeed living with him whilst she is in the UK for 5 or 6 months, and he should pay up. To some extent the nature of her visa is irrelevant because if she had, say, ILR or even British citizenship but chose to spend half the year in Thailand the only real difference between the two situations is that her current period of "residence" might be a one-off. If Coventry Council maintain their stance, the OP's only recourse might be to the courts, and the lawyers could have a fine old time at his expense debating the difference between a "resident" and someone "living in your home."

The OP might like to submit a Freedom of Information request to the Council to ask them to divulge their full internal guidance on which the statement in their booklet is based to see whether they are sticking to their own guidance. Beyond that, he may well just have to pay up and then make sure that when she leaves, he signs on for the discount again.

[tw25rw]

If it was me, I would tell them there was no one else living there, and have her stay anyway. The chances of them checking on you are minimal and, as already stated, she has no legal right to reside there and is just on holiday.

[Kevin1908]

I had a similar problem many years ago. I called their bluff and asked to see the regulation that stated that I would lose single person discount if I had a visitor stay with me. I never heard from the council again.

[naboo]

Follow Kevin's advice. Easy for someone to say you have to pay, not so easy for someone on £13k a year to bother to look up the rules. Ask them to publish their regulations.

[bobrussell]

Follow Kevin's advice. Easy for someone to say you have to pay, not so easy for someone on £13k a year to bother to look up the rules. Ask them to publish their regulations.

I would strongly agree. This seems to be something that councils make up the rules as they go along and when challenged realise that they are in a weak position and back down.

Having said all that, if you can afford it perhaps there is some moral argument for paying the full wack as a visitor still does get some benefits from the local council!

[yorkieb]

But the point is you cant clain single resident discount. I think u missed point completly.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect App

[RAZZELL]

But the point is you cant clain single resident discount. I think u missed point completly.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect App

Why?

He is a single resident with a temporary visitor who is not ordinarily or permanently resident in the UK.

Don't pay.

RAZZ

[yorkieb]

On my now wifes 3 visit visas i claimed the single discount. On the next couple of settlement visas we didnt claim the discount just in case we were storing up a problem for later. You never know what monkey you may get to process your resulting applications.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect App

[SantiSuk]

Some later-coming posters are diving down the 'resident' route still. As stated above (and reinforced in the summary government guidance in this link) residence is irrelevant* when it comes to Council Tax discount:

http://www.direct.go...Tax/DG_10037422

"Persons of other descriptions", as included in the list in the underlying legislation, is conveniently ignored in the list given in this basic Direct.Gov.UK guidance, but I'm pretty sure that is where one must look to see if their is any legislative guidance.

The variety of actual determinations quoted by some posters who have had actual experience suggests that it is for Councils to set the rules (or 'make it up' as some posters dismissively assert). I have some sympathy with Councils if there indeed is no legislative guidance - the law seems to talk about 'living' in the property as the relevant characteristic for purposes of counting adults for discount purposes. Anyone who knows the vast tomes of legislation that surround a definition of residence would have sympathy with ten-bob clerks having to define an even more wooly concept of living!

Wouldn't mind betting that a 6 month visitor is mostly seen by councils as not providing a Council Tax exemption - as intimated by others, that seems to be equitable and within the spirit of what was intended. [3 months? more questionable. One month - no way - just an emotional reaction]. Those who think that it is disgusting that their wife/partners visit should spoil their exemption are probably the same guys who want to leave the UK 'because bleeding foreigners are invading the country and getting all the benefits tax free' .

*Except that if there is a definition of living in relation to visitors it very well may talk about whether your property is your visitor's main 'residence' for the period they are visiting

Edited August 18, 2012 by SantiSuk

[7by7]

Having checked various councils websites it does seem that they do have a certain degree of flexibility in determining who qualifies for the discount and who doesn't.

Most of them don't specifically mention visitors, though.

This is almost certainly because they consider a visitor to be someone who stays overnight, or for a few days, maybe a couple of weeks. Not someone who stays for 4 to 6 months.

The OP has checked with his local authority and been given his answer; he is at liberty to check again or even seek legal advice; but I agree with Eff1n2ret when he says

the lawyers could have a fine old time at his expense debating the difference between a "resident" and someone "living in your home."

The single occupant discount is there because one person living in that house means the property will use fewer council services than another with two or more adults living in it. A visitor staying for several months will be making use of those services whilst there; why shouldn't they, or their host, contribute toward the cost of providing them?

The whole council tax system is extremely unfair, as were the rates before it, because the amount you pay is based upon the perceived value of your home. OK there is the single occupancy discount, but 4 working adults living in one house pay the same as the retired couple living next door. Is that fair? No!

A fairer system would be a local income tax or (dare I say it?) a poll tax.

[bobrussell]

Topic getting a bit heated!

The system is not particularly fair, there is a moral argument to pay for a long-term visitor as they are using some of the services. I tried and was told by my council that such a visitor did not count.

The rules are not clear and it is a bit of fun to argue the 'legal' rights and wrongs on a forum. If you think the council is right pay up, if you feel strongly, argue.

If every council has different interpretations then they are 'making the rules up as they go along'. If someone feels strongly enough then it is perfectly reasonable to request to be guided to the correct legislation.

I have obviously missed the bit about posters being disgusted that their partners visit should affect their discount and I for one am quite happy that benefits be paid to those in need. I would only leave the country for the benefit of getting a bit of sun on my back and a chance to relax beside a nice swimming pool!

I like living in a country with such a wide diversity of nationalities and cultures but admit I prefer everyone to work and do their bit if they are able to!

Edited August 18, 2012 by bobrussell

[RAZZELL]

Some later-coming posters are diving down the 'resident' route still. As stated above (and reinforced in the summary government guidance in this link) residence is irrelevant* when it comes to Council Tax discount:

http://www.direct.go...Tax/DG_10037422

"Persons of other descriptions", as included in the list in the underlying legislation, is conveniently ignored in the list given in this basic Direct.Gov.UK guidance, but I'm pretty sure that is where one must look to see if their is any legislative guidance.

The variety of actual determinations quoted by some posters who have had actual experience suggests that it is for Councils to set the rules (or 'make it up' as some posters dismissively assert). I have some sympathy with Councils if there indeed is no legislative guidance - the law seems to talk about 'living' in the property as the relevant characteristic for purposes of counting adults for discount purposes. Anyone who knows the vast tomes of legislation that surround a definition of residence would have sympathy with ten-bob clerks having to define an even more wooly concept of living!

Wouldn't mind betting that a 6 month visitor is mostly seen by councils as not providing a Council Tax exemption - as intimated by others, that seems to be equitable and within the spirit of what was intended. [3 months? more questionable. One month - no way - just an emotional reaction]. Those who think that it is disgusting that their wife/partners visit should spoil their exemption are probably the same guys who want to leave the UK 'because bleeding foreigners are invading the country and getting all the benefits tax free' .

*Except that if there is a definition of living in relation to visitors it very well may talk about whether your property is your visitor's main 'residence' for the period they are visiting

Mmm...

On various links Council Tax is determined by many factors including if it is your "main residence", location of belongings, where post is delivered etc etc

I would humbly suggest that someone who is essentially "on holiday" no matter for how long would not be liable as their "main residence" would be in Thailand!

When my now wife came to the UK, although my local council would let me pay for her they wouldn't put her name on the bill...I had to kick up a stink and go in and complain!

RAZZ