Can Coming To Thailand Make You Bisexual?

[scorpio]

I don't know how anyone can argue with facts.

If your born a man, you are a man

If your born a woman, you are a woman.

Anything is just trying to imitate. Just like a dog, just because you put clothes on it, its not a human.

End of discussion.

thats just downright ignorant, have you ever taken the time to get to know a ladyboy, i have. i have a few ladyboy friends and they all want to be girls and that was from a very early age. i dont class them as males, they are born woman with male genitalia , pure and simple. i know the difference after 12 years in los between a ladyboy and a transvestite .

Edited August 24, 2012 by scorpio

[foxboy]

That self labeling pressure is less so in Thailand as there does seem to be a freer bisexuality with Thai man where they don't feel the need so strong to self label. Enjoying M to M sex during a period of life, typically younger life, doesn't mean a person is necessarily gay for life or EVER self labels as either gay or LB. (In Thailand, or anywhere.)

you do contradict yourself Jingthing

you suggested previously that 'Male sexuality is FIXED and set in concrete at an early age.'

and when I suggested that men are not stigmatised for being gay you said - 'Incorrect'.

a lot of gay men tend to be defensive for no reason at all, some of my gay friends included. The OP is straight. He is normal. You are gay. You are normal. There is no argument. This thread has descended into an argument over semantics, yet 'straight, gay and bisexual' will mean something different to every single person. How can you measure hetero or homo sexuality?

Let's just all agree that we are all normal and enjoy different things in life and stop judging each other.

[Judecalling]

This thread is like a broken record......I'm away to annoy some Tottenham fans on the football thread.

They're very easy to upset.

Oh no : ( ... don't sashay off in your kilt like that. : )))))) (you know i am joking - just appreciate your humour.)

On topic ... i am bored too ... each to their own and have a nice day.

[smokie36]

Well i have been to san francisco and i have visited fishermans wharfe ,i am neither a fisherman or gay ,so did i do something wrong when i was there?

ps i didnt wear any flowers in my hair either i also went over the golden gate bridge and felt no inclination to jump off ,but when i was in disneyland in Anaheim i hugged goofey and had my picture taken with him, oh God am i bi

You clearly missed the real flavor of San Francisco. It makes sense to me that adventurous tourists crave a taste of ladyboy action in Pattaya, world famous haven for Thai ladyboys.

I can assure you that when i came here 23 years ago i was very adventurous but never once wanted to roger a ladyboy ,mind you the first one i met even made me look good looking

I've never wanted to roger a ladyboy either. Does that mean I'm straight?

No. Don't even try to wriggle or waggle or whatever you do to get out of it.....

[Jingthing]

That self labeling pressure is less so in Thailand as there does seem to be a freer bisexuality with Thai man where they don't feel the need so strong to self label. Enjoying M to M sex during a period of life, typically younger life, doesn't mean a person is necessarily gay for life or EVER self labels as either gay or LB. (In Thailand, or anywhere.)

you do contradict yourself Jingthing

you suggested previously that 'Male sexuality is FIXED and set in concrete at an early age.'

and when I suggested that men are not stigmatised for being gay you said - 'Incorrect'.

a lot of gay men tend to be defensive for no reason at all, some of my gay friends included. The OP is straight. He is normal. You are gay. You are normal. There is no argument. This thread has descended into an argument over semantics, yet 'straight, gay and bisexual' will mean something different to every single person. How can you measure hetero or homo sexuality?

Let's just all agree that we are all normal and enjoy different things in life and stop judging each other.

I didn't contradict myself. You just fail to comprehend what I have written. I expected someone to challenge me about this and I am glad you did.

Male sexual orientation IS fixed for the most part. At whatever range of the Kinsey scale where its going to be for life. Could be totally straight. Or totally gay. Or more commonly some degree of bi. In societies where labeling is pretty much demanded, most people pick straight, a minority picks gay and another minority picks bi which is ironic considering most men are some degree of bi. Of course social pressure pretty much everywhere in the world favors heterosexuality.

As far as Thai traditional culture, having gay sex itself as a young man doesn't imply a for life label that it tends to portend in the west. As far as stigmatization of Thai men who are totally gay and are labeled permanently, there is indeed SOME degree of social stigma. For example they are included with derision along with ladyboys as if they are the same thing. Derision in media. Derision by politicians. It is not severe compared to Anglo or Islamic countries, but it still exists. I didn't say it was severe. I said it exists, which it does. Also keep in mind that the very concept of men identifying as gay men is an alien imported concept in Thailand (as opposed to just having the sex or the love relationships). These ideas came from the west and not that long ago either!

Another point, Thai Chinese people are a large minority in Thailand. Among this group the family pressure against a gay identity is very strong and it is my impression in that culture there is a lot more severe lack of acceptance from families, closeting, and pressure to marry and have kids even if totally gay.

Of course again a man taking the social role of a woman (ladyboys) does not threaten the power structure of a traditional society. Its clear that Thai people find lots of fun in having their ladyboys to entertain them and to be targets of jokes. However gay men in the western model, strong masculine men loving other strong masculine men, REJECTING the heterosexual social model (man-woman love even if a secondary woman as they put it) does challenge the power structure and social assumptions of the Thai traditional society. It seems to me that the majority of Thai people don't even fully understand the western concept of gay male identity because so often they get thrown into the ladyboy bag, which they DO understand (and can be so much fun).

You asked how you measure: hetero, homo, or bi. I would say the Kinsey scale or similar scientific models. There is now a large field of science that studies human sexuality. These things ARE measurable and are not only semantics.

So if you go to Thailand and want to go with a LB, your sexuality whatever it was, is still what it was. Your EXPERIENCES may be new.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

I've never wanted to roger a ladyboy either. Does that mean I'm straight?

No. Don't even try to wriggle or waggle or whatever you do to get out of it.....

[Jingthing]

By the way, or bi the way, if you like, orientation isn't the only aspect of sexuality that is fixed early in life. Ever wonder why it is that one objectively attractive person excites you like mad and another does little? Is it their smell, their hair, something about the shape of their face? Do you think that doesn't come from somewhere, deep in your psyche?

[bkkjames]

By the way, or bi the way, if you like, orientation isn't the only aspect of sexuality that is fixed early in life. Ever wonder why it is that one objectively attractive person excites you like mad and another does little? Is it their smell, their hair, something about the shape of their face? Do you think that doesn't come from somewhere, deep in your psyche?

Nope, when I see an office girl with a tight shortish skirt walk by, I can assure you it comes from deep in my pants.

[foxboy]

You asked how you measure: hetero, homo, or bi. I would say the Kinsey scale or similar scientific models. There is now a large field of science that studies human sexuality. These things ARE measurable and are not only semantics.

I've never heard of the Kinsey scale, but having looked at it, it does offer a convenient 'measure' of sexual activity. However, and this is my point.. sexual desires may be manifest, suppressed or indeed repressed. They don't necessarily lead to actions. The question I think they OP was asking, was are you more likely to 'come out' in Thailand. Given the fact that it IS more liberal and there are a proliferation of men (LB's) available in an 'acceptable' format (dressed as women, maybe with fake boobs) then yes, you are more likely to give in to your inner desires and not feel guilty. The guilt is formed in your own country by social conditioning. If you see plenty of other men doing it you may think.. 'you know what, sod it, I'm in Thailand, nobody knows, I'm going to try it!' And this will be done by men fixed on a heterosexual lifestyle up to this point in the main. It is not necessarily the act that scares them, but the label attached to it.

This thread has received a lot of interest from 'straight men'. A lot of men will want the reassurance that if they do it they will not be derided for it. They need reassurance that they can commit a 'gay' act without being labelled a 'gay'. It is unfortunate that society feels the need to pigeon hole men in this way. If a girl had a drunken encounter with her female friend she would never be labelled a lesbian.

Forget labels and forget trying to measure 'gayness' or compile dubious statistical charts. You are what you do and that's that.

[Jingthing]

If Thailand was such a big "coming out" destination why don't we see more previously straight men chasing actual men (not LBs) in Thailand? We don't because it's not.

You know, I am totally not buying that most of the heterosexually identified men who chase LBs really want a male male (easily available here just like a female female) but go with LBs for shame reasons. In my experience, these LB chasers are for most part really into the FEMALE aspect of these LBs. Again, like gay identified men, if they wanted men, they can get a man who isn't presenting as a women (again for the most part).

Forget labels? How do we do that? The cat is out of the bag on labels. It may be a relatively modern western export but the global trend is for more labeling, not less. Again, maybe that's bad, but it's futile to deny the social reality of it. Sure individuals can reject it and say my life doesn't fit a label but if the dominant culture is still mostly about labels and the labels have consequences, you can't exactly live under the delusion that they don't.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Jingthing

[foxboy]

If Thailand was such a big "coming out" destination why don't we see more previously straight men chasing actual men (not LBs) in Thailand? We don't because it's not.

Forget labels? How do we do that? The cat is out of the bag on labels. It may be a relatively modern western export but the global trend is for more labeling, not less. Again, maybe that's bad, but it's futile to deny the social reality of it. Sure individuals can reject it and say my life doesn't fit a label but if the dominant culture is still mostly about labels and the labels have consequences, you can't exactly live under the delusion that they don't.

let's not pretend that sleeping with a man dressed up as a woman is NOT a form of 'coming out', and this happens A LOT in Thailand. Coming out is simply an acknowledgement of your own sexuality.

Forget labels? How do we do that?

easy, don't subscribe to that logic. Don't allow yourself to fall into any category and don't put other people into categories.

[Jingthing]

If Thailand was such a big "coming out" destination why don't we see more previously straight men chasing actual men (not LBs) in Thailand? We don't because it's not.

Forget labels? How do we do that? The cat is out of the bag on labels. It may be a relatively modern western export but the global trend is for more labeling, not less. Again, maybe that's bad, but it's futile to deny the social reality of it. Sure individuals can reject it and say my life doesn't fit a label but if the dominant culture is still mostly about labels and the labels have consequences, you can't exactly live under the delusion that they don't.

let's not pretend that sleeping with a man dressed up as a woman is NOT a form of 'coming out', and this happens A LOT in Thailand. Coming out is simply an acknowledgement of your own sexuality.

Forget labels? How do we do that?

easy, don't subscribe to that logic. Don't allow yourself to fall into any category and don't put other people into categories.

Chasing ladyboys shows you like to chase ladyboys, at least while on vacation. It doesn't mean you are gay or bisexual. It doesn't mean you aren't either. Sorry I don't see this as coming out. I see this as going out ... with a ladyboy.

Let me clarify a bit more.

Coming out generally means revealing your MINORITY sexual orientation identity to your social world. Gay. Lesbian. Transgender. Bisexual.

Some tourist comes to Thailand and bonks some LBs. Are they coming out? I think in the vast majority of cases, no, they are not. I think they are having holiday fun.

Of course there are cultural factors. Someone coming from India where having sex with trans prostitutes is considered mainstream heterosexual behavior, even less of any coming out implications.

Now someone who decides they are committed to loving LBs exclusively or one LB, that's a bigger thing. But then I'm not sure what that means. Maybe a new term is needed. Ladyboy Lover? Kind of like Chubby Chaser? For a LB to accept they are a LB and be public about it, that is coming out. For someone to love them in heterosexual way, what are these chaser coming out as? The OP posits bisexual. I don't think so.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Jingthing

[pigeonjake]

see this argument will go on for ever, because in your veiw, you say if you chase ladyboys you arnt gay,

but in my veiw i think the man would be gay,

this is the kind of thing that makes our world so special, in that everyone is differant in there opinion,

i think if you go or chace ladyboys you are gay,

why dont some of the posters here on TV ask there wifes/ girl friends if they think a man gay if he fcuks ladyboys, and would they still go with that man??

ill ask my wife later when i ring her when she wakes up,

jake

[Jingthing]

As long as we are going with labels, I think a man who is exclusively into LBs, and not into women, and not into men, is some other label. Does such a label for that exist? If not, maybe it should. I came up with Ladyboy Lover but it's obviously not so great.

[Jingthing]

see this argument will go on for ever, because in your veiw, you say if you chase ladyboys you arnt gay,

but in my veiw i think the man would be gay,

this is the kind of thing that makes our world so special, in that everyone is differant in there opinion,

i think if you go or chace ladyboys you are gay,

why dont some of the posters here on TV ask there wifes/ girl friends if they think a man gay if he fcuks ladyboys, and would they still go with that man??

ill ask my wife later when i ring her when she wakes up,

jake

Yeah I get it. Different opinions. But funny, people who identify as gay usually don't think of hetero modeled LB sex as gay. Wouldn't gay people know what gay is better than non-gay people? Gay and gender identity isn't just about sexual organs. I'm sure there are married men who the world thinks are hetero who love their woman backdoor style and fantasize she's a man. Now, that is gay.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm sure there are married men who the world thinks are hetero who love their woman backdoor style and fantasize she's a man. Now, that is gay.

Certainly, but not as gay as having sex with a man dressed up as a woman.

[thenervoussurgeon]

see this argument will go on for ever, because in your veiw, you say if you chase ladyboys you arnt gay,

but in my veiw i think the man would be gay,

this is the kind of thing that makes our world so special, in that everyone is differant in there opinion,

i think if you go or chace ladyboys you are gay,

why dont some of the posters here on TV ask there wifes/ girl friends if they think a man gay if he fcuks ladyboys, and would they still go with that man??

ill ask my wife later when i ring her when she wakes up,

jake

Yeah I get it. Different opinions. But funny, people who identify as gay usually don't think of hetero modeled LB sex as gay. Wouldn't gay people know what gay is better than non-gay people? Gay and gender identity isn't just about sexual organs. I'm sure there are married men who the world thinks are hetero who love their woman backdoor style and fantasize she's a man. Now, that is gay.

see this argument will go on for ever, because in your veiw, you say if you chase ladyboys you arnt gay,

but in my veiw i think the man would be gay,

this is the kind of thing that makes our world so special, in that everyone is differant in there opinion,

i think if you go or chace ladyboys you are gay,

why dont some of the posters here on TV ask there wifes/ girl friends if they think a man gay if he fcuks ladyboys, and would they still go with that man??

ill ask my wife later when i ring her when she wakes up,

jake

Yeah I get it. Different opinions. But funny, people who identify as gay usually don't think of hetero modeled LB sex as gay. Wouldn't gay people know what gay is better than non-gay people? Gay and gender identity isn't just about sexual organs. I'm sure there are married men who the world thinks are hetero who love their woman backdoor style and fantasize she's a man. Now, that is gay.

Ever thought that men use the backdoor on the wife ,because after time the front door is a little to large and not because they really want a man?

[Jingthing]

I'm sure there are married men who the world thinks are hetero who love their woman backdoor style and fantasize she's a man. Now, that is gay.

Certainly, but not as gay as having sex with a man dressed up as a woman.

In my view, that would depend on what the man is thinking and feeling. For example a heterosexually oriented man with a LB focusing on her fantastic breasts better than any real woman he's ever had, during orgasm, is pretty darn straight.

[Jingthing]

Ever thought that men use the backdoor on the wife ,because after time the front door is a little to large and not because they really want a man?

Clever twist but of course I'm sure you already realize I didn't mean to imply that all hetero men into anal sex with women are into it in a gay way. Again, it would depend on what the man is thinking and feeling about it.

[chiangmaikelly]

However you look at the above issue you are gonna get too much information

Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[bonobo]

I am amazed at how long this thread has been going on. Does it really matter? I am not writing about the original question. I think most posters agree that Thailand will not make someone bisexual. It may make is easier to act on certain proclivities than some places in the West, but it will not create those which did not exist before.

But the ongoing debate on whether a man who likes ladyboys is gay or straight seems to me to be full of sound and fury signifying nothing. The only takeaway I can get from a man who enjoys the company of ladyboys is that he enjoys the company of ladyboys. That is it. Does it really matter if he is considered gay or straight? Is being pigeonholed into one classification or the other change the way that man feels or what he does? "Gay" and "straight" are merely broad labels we have which cannot adequately describe the vast and myriad differences experienced by the human condition.

I have my own opinion on this, and that opinion is most likely colored by my own sexual persuasion. But does my opinion matter much in the grand scheme of things? Does anyone's? We can argue until the cows come home, but being able to slap a label on human activities doesn't really mean much. And for the most part, that label will not change the person being labeled.

[Jingthing]

...

But the ongoing debate on whether a man who likes ladyboys is gay or straight seems to me to be full of sound and fury signifying nothing. The only takeaway I can get from a man who enjoys the company of ladyboys is that he enjoys the company of ladyboys.

...

Yes indeed, that's all we know. He probably knows a lot more. Arriving at BKK and enjoying some LB fun changes very few men's sexual orientation.

While I appreciate your post, I do think there MAY be an interesting angle from this thread. For whatever reasons, people have a tendency to label, ourselves, others, what have you. We've got somewhat adequate labels for the popular orientations: Straight, Gay, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual but I don't think that we do have an adequate label for men who become exclusively focused on Ladyboys. Is that just a fetish? While maybe such a label isn't needed because attraction/love of Ladyboys provides a target rich human environment to sexually express a range of sexual orientations (thus the heat and controversy on this thread?), maybe this segment which isn't insignificant in numbers in Thailand could benefit from a snappy label that is SPECIFIC to them. Or maybe not. But I don't recall the idea being raised before at least on this forum.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Jingthing

[thenervoussurgeon]

Jingthing

maybe you have a point ,it could be a fetish,

note to self

"can coming to Thailand turn you into a feteshist?)

[tropo]

Jingthing

maybe you have a point ,it could be a fetish,

note to self

"can coming to Thailand turn you into a feteshist?)

I made that point about 750 posts back.

People are not attracted to vaginas and penises. People don't normally ask a girl or guy to strip down so we can see their genitalia before they date them. It's the outward appearance that normally gets people in. It's the humps, the lovely little lumps, as Fergie puts it. Once they're in and they see a penis, they deal with it in different ways.

An attractive ladyboy is the closest many men will ever get to a creature with the appearance of a model.

Edited August 25, 2012 by tropo

[chiangmaikelly]

Jingthing

maybe you have a point ,it could be a fetish,

note to self

"can coming to Thailand turn you into a feteshist?)

I made that point about 750 posts back.

People are not attracted to vaginas and penises. People don't normally ask a girl or guy to strip down so we can see their genitalia before they date them. It's the outward appearance that normally gets people in. It's the humps, the lovely little lumps, as Fergie puts it. Once they're in and they see a penis, they deal with it in different ways.

An attractive ladyboy is the closest many men will ever get to a creature with the appearance of a model.

"People don't normally ask a girl or guy to strip down so we can see their genitalia before they date them"

They do in Pattaya! Why else would you go to a go go? Do you really like the overpiced beer and bad music?

[tropo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_WG3d3GL8&feature=related

Yes, the times they are a-changin'

[Jingthing]

More like:

The "Kinks"?

Coincidence?

Edited August 25, 2012 by Jingthing

[tropo]

"People don't normally ask a girl or guy to strip down so we can see their genitalia before they date them"

They do in Pattaya! Why else would you go to a go go? Do you really like the overpiced beer and bad music?

In go-go bars, but the vast majority of "dating" is from beer bars, the coconut bar and freelancers in discos where pre-exposure of genitalia is not normal practice. I don't think anyone asks a ladyboy to strip down before "dating" them. (btw, I don't drink beer and I don't do p4p)

It was my wife's smile and personality that I was attracted to, long before I saw her pussy.

But that's irrelevant, I was talking about the general sexual behaviour the world over, not about a few strip clubs in Pattaya.

Edited August 25, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

By the way, or bi the way, if you like, orientation isn't the only aspect of sexuality that is fixed early in life. Ever wonder why it is that one objectively attractive person excites you like mad and another does little? Is it their smell, their hair, something about the shape of their face? Do you think that doesn't come from somewhere, deep in your psyche?

Nope, when I see an office girl with a tight shortish skirt walk by, I can assure you it comes from deep in my pants.

If it is that easy for you to become sexually aroused, then I'd place bets that you've been unwittingly aroused by ladyboys on more than one occasion.

Edited August 25, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

To say that to be homosexual is no shame these days ,i must disagree ,for me and you perhaps we do not care ,but to millions of people around the world it is shamefull ,and believe me it is shamefull to many many people on these boards.

There's certainly a lot of anonymous posters on here trying to convince other anonymous posters that they are not gay. Perhaps they're the ones with identity issues.

Remember this Seinfeld episode: