Kor Yaadt ?

[jamles]

As part of our USArmy orientation to Thailand in 1971 we received a few lessons in Thai language and culture from a native Thai teacher. We were taught two ways of saying 'excuse me', kor todt ขอโทษ and also kor yaadt. The teacher explained that kor yaadt was more useful for occasions such as making your way through a crowd politely. I don't hear kor yaadt used and cannot find it in the dictionary. Is anyone familiar this term? Is it still in use?

[AyG]

The term ขอยาด is still in use, albeit infrequently. The "yaat" bit is pretty meaningless, adding a sense of something like "a lot" or "for a long time". For making your way through a crowd ขอทาง is more usual.

[jamles]

Thanks, AyG

[Peppy]

I must admit I'd never heard this before, so I googled "ขอยาด", with the quote marks... the seventh out of 76,000 results had it with an apostrophe before ยาด, like this: ขอ'ยาด. This got me thinking: shortened Thai words are (very) occasionally written with an apostrophe, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย -> มหา'ลัย. So, could ขอยาด be a shortened form of ขออนุญาต? It appears it is: Google gives 45,000 hits for "ขอญาต", and another 31,000 for "ขอญาติ" (since อนุญาต is frequently misspelled as อนุญาติ). While some of the ขอญาติ results might refer to requesting something from relatives and not be misspellings at all, most seem to be in the context of asking for permission, or ขออนุญาต.

Incidentally, "ขอโทษ" returns nearly 35 million results.

[jamles]

Well done, Peppy. You're right on. I just checked the dictionary at thai-language.com and they list ขออนุญาต and define it as: to ask for permission - "Excuse me"

Seems like a nice, polite phrase. I wonder why it or the shortened form ขอ 'ญาต are not used more often.

[AyG]

the seventh out of 76,000 results had it with an apostrophe before ยาด, like this: ขอ'ยาด. This got me thinking: shortened Thai words are (very) occasionally written with an apostrophe, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย -> มหา'ลัย.

Sorry, this sounds like total <deleted> to me. Apostrophes are not a part of Thai script. There is no way in narok that yaat is anuyaat with a few missing characters and an apostrophe.

I can't be bothered to point out the problems with the confusion between "relatives" and "permission".

[katana]

I must admit on reading the OP I thought it was from ขออนุญาต too.

[Peppy]

Apostrophes are not a part of Thai script.

True, but that doesn't stop people from using them occasionally.

The logo for the TV show "ซุป'ตาร์ on stage" has one, and it shows up in around a third of websites talking about the show:

As I mentioned before, it's quite commonly used to write "มหา'ลัย". Here are some examples:

[n00b]

Where is the "r" on the end of kɔ jaat?

[jamles]

There is no 'r', per se, in ขอ'ญาต. 'or', along with 'o', 'aw', 'aaw' and others like the special character backward 'c's are attmepts at phonetic transliteration of the vowel อ.

[n00b]

Let's just call it kอ jaat then if we are going to transliterate since the backwards "c" was impossible to type on this forum. ย is actually a "j", not a "y". A "y" is a vowel close to "i". Just have a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

[Peppy]

The phonetic alphabet is indeed a useful system if you're serious about learning several languages, or even just one other language that's written in Roman script. The problem with it, though, is that it isn't Roman script--it's a whole other alphabet, and a lot of people can't be bothered to learn that. Particularly if you're only studying a single foreign language written in a non-Roman script--it's easier just to learn the script the language is usually written in. For the people doing this, and for the people who'd like to see what's written but can't read the native script, some form of transcription/transliteration is necessary, preferably one based on a script they're familiar with.

Most British people, I think, would agree that ขอ sounds like khor--but then, most Americans would say it sounds like khaw. The problem is that British people don't pronounce the final "r", so the British "or" in fact sounds more or less like the American "aw". It might be confusing, but it's still easier than backwards c's, IMO. Of course, with "y", there's really no debate: In English, "y" followed by a vowel sounds like ย. (Well, except for "eye", but you get my drift.)

Edited August 23, 2012 by Peppy

[n00b]

The phonetic alphabet is indeed a useful system if you're serious about learning several languages, or even just one other language that's written in Roman script. The problem with it, though, is that it isn't Roman script--it's a whole other alphabet, and a lot of people can't be bothered to learn that. Particularly if you're only studying a single foreign language written in a non-Roman script--it's easier just to learn the script the language is usually written in. For the people doing this, and for the people who'd like to see what's written but can't read the native script, some form of transcription/transliteration is necessary, preferably one based on a script they're familiar with.

Most British people, I think, would agree that ขอ sounds like khor--but then, most Americans would say it sounds like khaw. The problem is that British people don't pronounce the final "r", so the British "or" in fact sounds more or less like the American "aw". It might be confusing, but it's still easier than backwards c's, IMO. Of course, with "y", there's really no debate: In English, "y" followed by a vowel sounds like ย. (Well, except for "eye", but you get my drift.)

And the problem with transliterations is just that, it would have to be suited to various languages.

ขอ-

Kaw (American English)

Kor (British English)

Co (Spanish)

Kå (Scandinavian languages)

"ย" is phonetically a "j" and not a "y"... "Y" is a vowel in itself. There is no debate. Just have a look the the phonetic alphabet.

Edited August 23, 2012 by n00b

[Richard W]

ขอ-

Kå (Scandinavian languages)

Not in Chiangmai Swedish, though at the time Meadish objected it matched the Swedish of the Swede sitting behind me at work. It's a shame, because as disambiguated RTGS, which we used when this forum was new, -ååi for -อย would have been a lot better than -ori or -awi. That 'å' is a mix of 'a' and 'o', as in 'Aoi', is immediately memorable. (Unfortunately, 'ao' is taken by its use in works like [R]khao 'he, she, they'.)

[meadish_sweetball]

There are many dialects in Sweden and the vowel sounds do vary.

In Stockholm Swedish and many of the surrounding dialects, including my own, long A corresponds most closely to the Thai อ in ขอ whereas long Å corresponds more closely to Thai โ in โค.

This Swedish alphabet chart demonstrates this quite clearly if you press "Aa" and "Åå" buttons (listen closely to the sound and try to avoid thinking about the symbol it is associated with):

http://swedishalphabet.tripod.com/alpha.swf

That being said, 'short' å in Swedish, for example in 'råtta' (rat) is closer to Thai อ...

[Peppy]

Wouldn't transliterating Thai into Swedish make more sense on a Swedish-language forum?

In all seriousness, though, the IPA is great, but it really isn't that much more accessible to the average Joe than Thai script is. So if we're going to transliterate Thai into Roman script on an English-language forum, I'd say we should approximate Thai sounds by using their closest sounds in English, and stand by "y" for ย ยักษ์.

[meadish_sweetball]

I do believe we tried to develop a system back in the Dark Ages of the forum, but it did not really catch on, even among the most prolific posters. I think there are many reasons why none of the systems developed so far have gained universal popularity...

[isaanbrit]

the seventh out of 76,000 results had it with an apostrophe before ยาด, like this: ขอ'ยาด. This got me thinking: shortened Thai words are (very) occasionally written with an apostrophe, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย -> มหา'ลัย.

Sorry, this sounds like total <deleted> to me. Apostrophes are not a part of Thai script. There is no way in narok that yaat is anuyaat with a few missing characters and an apostrophe.

I can't be bothered to point out the problems with the confusion between "relatives" and "permission".

No way in hell? You sound pretty sure of yourself, which is ironic seeing as your wrong - lol

[isaanbrit]

Any, by the way, it has nothing to do with "relatives' - อนุญาติ just happens to have ญาติ in it

[masterbiker49]

Any, by the way, it has nothing to do with "relatives' - อนุญาติ just happens to have ญาติ in it

Can u learn-ed gents help me with learning Thai as far as best way,learning etc.

[isaanbrit]

For me, Masterbiker, the only way that worked was to go and live in the middle of no-where for a year or two.

Basically the crucial thing is to be around Thai people and, ideally, in a situation where no-one speaks English. I worked in a small company where everyone was Thai for my first 6 months in Thailand and that's where I learnt most of my Thai. I would thoroughly recommend the same thing - find some small Thai company in the provinces that has some relations with foreigners and go work for them editing their emails, etc and hanging out with their staff.

)))

[Gaccha]

Do Thais use the word 'sorry' when walking into other Thais...? I think they do. But sometimes they appear to pause before using with me as if doing a quick translation in their heads....

So has the word "sorry" become Thai?

[kriswillems]

It happens also very often to me that they use "sorry" while all the rest is Thai. I've also heard Thai use "sorry" when talking together when I am around.

I guess it has become part of Thai, like many other English words, like "confirm".

A funny thing is that older Thai people sometimes really don't understand the younger people because they use a few English words.

Edited September 1, 2012 by kriswillems

[soundman]

I was always under the impression that ขอยาด kor-yaht was always just a shortened version of ขออนุญาต kor-anoo-yaht.

Hear it quite regularly.