Lite Beer Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thai army chief meddling in crackdown probe: HRW Aug 23, 2012 (AFP) - BANGKOK: -- A leading human rights watchdog on Thursday accused Thailand's army chief of trying to intimidate investigators probing the military's role in a deadly crackdown on opposition street protests in 2010. New York-based Human Rights Watch also criticised Commander-in-Chief Prayut Chan-O-Cha for suing a lawyer of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra for accusing the army of killing "Red Shirt" protesters. Calling on the government to rein in Prayut, HRW said he had pressured the Justice Ministry's Department of Special Investigation over its probe into the deaths of more than 90 people, mostly civilians, in the 2010 unrest. The DSI, the kingdom's highest criminal investigation body, has so far ordered inquests into the deaths of 19 of the victims, and said it wants to question soldiers in connection with the military operation. "Abuses by soldiers took place in full view of the Thai public and the world's media, yet the Thai army chief is now trying to intimidate investigators and critics into silence," said HRW's Asia director Brad Adams. "Instead of going after his critics, he should be ensuring accountability within his ranks. " There have been no prosecutions over the killings despite an election pledge by current Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra -- Thaksin's sister -- to seek justice for victims. HRW's own investigation concluded that the military used "excessive and unnecessary lethal force" in the crackdown. Prayut denies army abuses and has filed a defamation case against Thaksin's lawyer Robert Amsterdam for accusing the military of killing civilians in a speech in May. Thaksin was toppled by royalist generals in a 2006 coup that unleashed years of street protests by the pro-Thaksin Red Shirts and the rival Yellow Shirts, who claim allegiance to the throne. Refuting HRW's accusations, an army spokesman told AFP there "is no way that we can interfere" in the investigation. "How can the army intervene with ongoing cases? The army has no authority to do that," Colonel Sunsern Kaewkumnerd said, adding that the military was forced to defend its reputation with the defamation case. -- (c) Copyright AFP 2012-08-23 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainarong Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 How remiss of me I forgot to tell the human watch dog meddling happens at all levels in Thailand's senior ranks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonclark Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Army meddles in justice = criminals meddle in politics = politicians meddle in police force. Its all the same. This is Thailand after all. HRW - please tell people something they don't already know!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramrod711 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thaksin was toppled by royalist generals in a 2006 coup that unleashed years of street protests by the pro-Thaksin Red Shirts and the rival Yellow Shirts, who claim allegiance to the throne. As I recall , the street protests were in full swing before the coup. I remember university students, and others calling for Thaksins resignation. Good luck to anyone trying to get to the bottom of this mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Can anybody possibly imagine HRW taking any other position? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post birdpooguava Posted August 23, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted August 23, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters.indeed. They see the militant side of the reds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. Mmmmm !!! Criticism Main article: Criticism of Human Rights Watch HRW has been criticized by national governments, other NGOs, its founder and former Chairman Robert L. Bernstein, and the media. It has been accused by critics[26] of being influenced by United States government policy,[27] in particular in relation to reporting on Latin America;[28][29][30][31][32] ignoring anti-Semitism in Europe or being anti-Semitic;[33] biases in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict; and unfair and biased reporting of human rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia.[34][35][36] Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased againstIsrael[37][38][39] and that requesting or accepting donations from Saudi Arabian citizens causes it to be biased;[40] it has also been accused of unbalanced reporting against Hezbollah inLebanon[41][42] and against Palestinian militant groups.[43] HRW has publicly responded to criticisms relating to its reporting on Latin America[44][45][46] and in the context of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[39][47][48][49][50] [edit] World report 2012 The Washington Post reports that Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the report was "one-sided and deeply flawed." Iraqi government spokesman, Ali Hadi al-Moussawi said that it "relied on sources that are inaccurate, biased and not factual."[51] Writing in China Daily, Shen Hui says that "the report seriously lacks in objectivity and impartiality."[52] Robin Sheppard, writing in The Jewish Chronicle, says that western governments should not believe report's message that "much like the revolutions that upended Eastern Europe in 1989, the Arab upheavals were inspired by a vision of freedom, a desire for a voice in one's destiny, and a quest for governments that are accountable to the public rather than captured by a ruling elite." Sheppard continues and says that it is not a 'vision of freedom' and that referring to 1989 is "dangerously misleading."[53] Sheppard, however, is offering his own commentary when he says that "hostility to Israel is deeply intertwined with the kind of vitriolic mass antisemitism".[54] Not politically motivated eh!! Edited August 23, 2012 by GentlemanJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post waza Posted August 23, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted August 23, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. "Even worse, the institute's report proposes a broad amnesty for leaders and supporters of all political movements, politicians, government officials, and members of the security forces involved. Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung recently said a reconciliation bill based on similar principles will soon be submitted to parliament by the ruling Pheu Thai Party and its coalition partners. Aimed at protecting military and political elites, these proposals are a major blow to hopes for justice, particularly among the large numbers of red shirts who camped out on the streets of Bangkok in 2010 and were the main victims of the violence. Human Rights Watch's report "Descent Into Chaos" documented deaths and injuries as the result of excessive and unnecessary use of lethal force by the security forces and attacks by "black shirts", the armed elements within the UDD..........Since Ms Yingluck took office last August, the focus of criminal investigations has shifted to cases in which soldiers were implicated while ignoring abuses by "black shirts" on the premise that UDD leaders and supporters cannot be blamed for violence as they were engaged in a noble protest. Despite clear evidence, the government even claims that there were no armed elements within the UDD." by Brad Adams 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. "Even worse, the institute's report proposes a broad amnesty for leaders and supporters of all political movements, politicians, government officials, and members of the security forces involved. Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung recently said a reconciliation bill based on similar principles will soon be submitted to parliament by the ruling Pheu Thai Party and its coalition partners. Aimed at protecting military and political elites, these proposals are a major blow to hopes for justice, particularly among the large numbers of red shirts who camped out on the streets of Bangkok in 2010 and were the main victims of the violence. Human Rights Watch's report "Descent Into Chaos" documented deaths and injuries as the result of excessive and unnecessary use of lethal force by the security forces and attacks by "black shirts", the armed elements within the UDD..........Since Ms Yingluck took office last August, the focus of criminal investigations has shifted to cases in which soldiers were implicated while ignoring abuses by "black shirts" on the premise that UDD leaders and supporters cannot be blamed for violence as they were engaged in a noble protest. Despite clear evidence, the government even claims that there were no armed elements within the UDD." by Brad Adams Hallelujah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdpooguava Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. Mmmmm !!! Criticism Main article: Criticism of Human Rights Watch HRW has been criticized by national governments, other NGOs, its founder and former Chairman Robert L. Bernstein, and the media. It has been accused by critics[26] of being influenced by United States government policy,[27] in particular in relation to reporting on Latin America;[28][29][30][31][32] ignoring anti-Semitism in Europe or being anti-Semitic;[33] biases in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict; and unfair and biased reporting of human rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia.[34][35][36] Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased againstIsrael[37][38][39] and that requesting or accepting donations from Saudi Arabian citizens causes it to be biased;[40] it has also been accused of unbalanced reporting against Hezbollah inLebanon[41][42] and against Palestinian militant groups.[43] HRW has publicly responded to criticisms relating to its reporting on Latin America[44][45][46] and in the context of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[39][47][48][49][50] [edit] World report 2012 The Washington Post reports that Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the report was "one-sided and deeply flawed." Iraqi government spokesman, Ali Hadi al-Moussawi said that it "relied on sources that are inaccurate, biased and not factual."[51] Writing in China Daily, Shen Hui says that "the report seriously lacks in objectivity and impartiality."[52] Robin Sheppard, writing in The Jewish Chronicle, says that western governments should not believe report's message that "much like the revolutions that upended Eastern Europe in 1989, the Arab upheavals were inspired by a vision of freedom, a desire for a voice in one's destiny, and a quest for governments that are accountable to the public rather than captured by a ruling elite." Sheppard continues and says that it is not a 'vision of freedom' and that referring to 1989 is "dangerously misleading."[53] Sheppard, however, is offering his own commentary when he says that "hostility to Israel is deeply intertwined with the kind of vitriolic mass antisemitism".[54] Not politically motivated eh!! Also had read that before my 1st post. They have no reason though to be biased with regards to the Thai situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters.indeed. They see the militant side of the reds nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. A HRW reviewing of Rorke's Drift would decry the brutality of the imperialists, and the infringement on the "human rights" of the natives. Never once in their existence have they said "Fair cop, shoot the bastard." Like our own Tom, they routinely cry foul over use of force to control rampant violence, but without suggesting any other means to quell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chooka Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Why would they meddle in the probe? I can think of only one reason and that is they have something to hide and are afraid of the truth comming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Why would they meddle in the probe? I can think of only one reason and that is they have something to hide and are afraid of the truth comming out. Perhaps they can see in whose hand the probe is held, and where they intend to stick it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 nonsense. ......... Human Rights Watch's report "Descent Into Chaos" documented deaths and injuries as the result of excessive and unnecessary use of lethal force by the security forces and attacks by "black shirts", the armed elements within the UDD..........Since Ms Yingluck took office last August, the focus of criminal investigations has shifted to cases in which soldiers were implicated while ignoring abuses by "black shirts" on the premise that UDD leaders and supporters cannot be blamed for violence as they were engaged in a noble protest. Despite clear evidence, the government even claims that there were no armed elements within the UDD." by Brad Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayboy Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. A HRW reviewing of Rorke's Drift would decry the brutality of the imperialists, and the infringement on the "human rights" of the natives. Never once in their existence have they said "Fair cop, shoot the bastard." Like our own Tom, they routinely cry foul over use of force to control rampant violence, but without suggesting any other means to quell it. Predictably the usual suspects turn on HRW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. A HRW reviewing of Rorke's Drift would decry the brutality of the imperialists, and the infringement on the "human rights" of the natives. Never once in their existence have they said "Fair cop, shoot the bastard." Like our own Tom, they routinely cry foul over use of force to control rampant violence, but without suggesting any other means to quell it. Predictably the usual suspects turn on HRW. Rather than brand me a usual suspect, you could come up with counter-argument, such as one occasion HRW has condoned violence by law enforcement as necessary. There is none because it would offend their support base. Edited August 24, 2012 by OzMick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somtumlion Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I have yet to see any video that shows people getting shot, with the shooter identified. With all the chaos happening at that time - its pretty obvious that the truth of who killed each and every person will never be known, with any degree of certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. A HRW reviewing of Rorke's Drift would decry the brutality of the imperialists, and the infringement on the "human rights" of the natives. Never once in their existence have they said "Fair cop, shoot the bastard." Like our own Tom, they routinely cry foul over use of force to control rampant violence, but without suggesting any other means to quell it. Predictably the usual suspects turn on HRW. Some questions: The same author states that the authorities are going after the Thai Army and Abhisit/Suthep as well as stating that the Yingluck administration has now sided with the army. Confusing? He also questions why we don't see anyone going after the red shirts and black shirts who murdered innocent people. Why is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomross46 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The DSI, the kingdom's highest criminal investigation body, has so far ordered inquests into the deaths of 19 of the victims, and said it wants to question soldiers in connection with the military operation. The DSI is also under the control of the Police, which takes orders from DPM Chalerm. We have all listened to DPM Chalerm talling us that he will bring back Big Brother. The DSI has do nothing to investigate the assalt of foreign diplomats in Pattaya, or the two assination attempts of the PM. Has the DSI completed the investigation 2500 innocent people, during the War on Drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. A HRW reviewing of Rorke's Drift would decry the brutality of the imperialists, and the infringement on the "human rights" of the natives. Never once in their existence have they said "Fair cop, shoot the bastard." Like our own Tom, they routinely cry foul over use of force to control rampant violence, but without suggesting any other means to quell it. Predictably the usual suspects turn on HRW. Rather than brand me a usual suspect, you could come up with counter-argument, such as one occasion HRW has condoned violence by law enforcement as necessary. There is none because it would offend their support base. Indeed, they propose absolutely nothing to work out how to solve the issue of thousands of people sitting in the centre of cities with weaponry, and that goes for yellows and reds. They basically dared the armed forces to remove them by attacking them because there was no way they would move. Now of course, the actual events of the day can be raked over but everyone had fair warning about what was coming and they stayed. Of course, innocent people trying to get out shouldn't have been caught in the fray, and journalists shouldn't have been caught up in it, but it was a peculiarly Thai tactic to mount a major sit in for MONTHS. In this, the Thai police and the legal system are massively to blame through inaction. It is not a right to block the centre of cities for months to make your point. Go sit in the park if you want. The only way to prevent it again is to enforce the bloody law and stop people commandeering the centre of major cities for mass public demonstrations that go on for MONTHS. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rubl Posted August 24, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. Mmmmm !!! Criticism Main article: Criticism of Human Rights Watch HRW has been criticized by national governments, other NGOs, its founder and former Chairman Robert L. Bernstein, and the media. It has been accused by critics[26] of being influenced by United States government policy,[27] in particular in relation to reporting on Latin America;[28][29][30][31][32] ignoring anti-Semitism in Europe or being anti-Semitic;[33] biases in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict; and unfair and biased reporting of human rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia.[34][35][36] Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased againstIsrael[37][38][39] and that requesting or accepting donations from Saudi Arabian citizens causes it to be biased;[40] it has also been accused of unbalanced reporting against Hezbollah inLebanon[41][42] and against Palestinian militant groups.[43] HRW has publicly responded to criticisms relating to its reporting on Latin America[44][45][46] and in the context of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[39][47][48][49][50] [edit] World report 2012 The Washington Post reports that Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the report was "one-sided and deeply flawed." Iraqi government spokesman, Ali Hadi al-Moussawi said that it "relied on sources that are inaccurate, biased and not factual."[51] Writing in China Daily, Shen Hui says that "the report seriously lacks in objectivity and impartiality."[52] Robin Sheppard, writing in The Jewish Chronicle, says that western governments should not believe report's message that "much like the revolutions that upended Eastern Europe in 1989, the Arab upheavals were inspired by a vision of freedom, a desire for a voice in one's destiny, and a quest for governments that are accountable to the public rather than captured by a ruling elite." Sheppard continues and says that it is not a 'vision of freedom' and that referring to 1989 is "dangerously misleading."[53] Sheppard, however, is offering his own commentary when he says that "hostility to Israel is deeply intertwined with the kind of vitriolic mass antisemitism".[54] Not politically motivated eh!! Also had read that before my 1st post. They have no reason though to be biased with regards to the Thai situation Do you mean to say or imply that the HRW had (good) reason to be biased regarding other countries? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunken Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW, like most similar organisations, doesn't always get it right. If they opened both of their eyes they would see that the reason the army is being vocal is that the government controlled DSI are only focusing on possible excesses from one side. Both sides of this conflict need to be investigated - impartially. The PT party & the red shirts think that impartiality is targeting Abhisit, Suthep & the army only. Not only that but they want to provide the mastermind with a total amnesty - calling it reconciliation when it is nothing of the sort. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chads Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Come on, every single human rights NGO out there is politically motivated, as in it has an underlying political ideology. But the point this NGO is trying to make here is that the Thai Army Chief has been meddling in investigations. And I think that's valid enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim walker Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Thailand is run by the military by all at the top of the Privy Council and always has been and always will be They are above and beyond the law so any Human Rights watchdog will not bother the military overlords 1 jot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 HRW an independent NGO without political affiliation or influence by Thailand can see the truth which eludes the majority of TV posters. A HRW reviewing of Rorke's Drift would decry the brutality of the imperialists, and the infringement on the "human rights" of the natives. Never once in their existence have they said "Fair cop, shoot the bastard." Like our own Tom, they routinely cry foul over use of force to control rampant violence, but without suggesting any other means to quell it. Predictably the usual suspects turn on HRW. Some questions: The same author states that the authorities are going after the Thai Army and Abhisit/Suthep as well as stating that the Yingluck administration has now sided with the army. Confusing? He also questions why we don't see anyone going after the red shirts and black shirts who murdered innocent people. Why is this? Must be too complicated for the red boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdpooguava Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Some questions: The same author states that the authorities are going after the Thai Army and Abhisit/Suthep as well as stating that the Yingluck administration has now sided with the army. Confusing? He also questions why we don't see anyone going after the red shirts and black shirts who murdered innocent people. Why is this? Must be too complicated for the red boys A Thai government simply can't exist without a working relationship with the army. PT & RTA maintain an uneasy peace to retain their shares of the power. Not confusing at all. The charges against AV & ST have been made by relatives of the victims, not the government. It is surely difficult to bring the '500 black shirted terrorists' to justice if they have never been identified, but I'm sure if a victim's relative had a case against a red or black shirt for murder it would be heard by the courts. Clear things up for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Some questions: The same author states that the authorities are going after the Thai Army and Abhisit/Suthep as well as stating that the Yingluck administration has now sided with the army. Confusing? He also questions why we don't see anyone going after the red shirts and black shirts who murdered innocent people. Why is this? Must be too complicated for the red boys A Thai government simply can't exist without a working relationship with the army. PT & RTA maintain an uneasy peace to retain their shares of the power. Not confusing at all. The charges against AV & ST have been made by relatives of the victims, not the government. It is surely difficult to bring the '500 black shirted terrorists' to justice if they have never been identified, but I'm sure if a victim's relative had a case against a red or black shirt for murder it would be heard by the courts. Clear things up for you? Quite clear and of course correct. Possibly a bit too difficult for some on here. Funny that the 500, armed to the teeth black shirts and the arsonists who set fire to the buildings have not been brought to book. Notwithstanding all the camera evidence and hundreds, if not thousands, of witnesses and the presence of about 30,000 troops within a few hundred metres. ( apart from, I think, 5 persons, a couple of which are under age and accused of shoplifting.........) Funny that.................. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Quite clear and of course correct. Possibly a bit too difficult for some on here. Funny that the 500, armed to the teeth black shirts and the arsonists who set fire to the buildings have not been brought to book. Notwithstanding all the camera evidence and hundreds, if not thousands, of witnesses and the presence of about 30,000 troops within a few hundred metres. ( apart from, I think, 5 persons, a couple of which are under age and accused of shoplifting.........) Funny that.................. Since the change in administration, all investigation into red/black shirt terrorism has been dropped in favour of investigating RTA "atrocities". Current theories are that all army deaths were caused by internal factionalism, and that alleged arson was in fact spontaneous combustion. Funny? it's bloody hilarious for those of us who watched the events. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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