Govt Building Standards In Phuket Are There Any And Are They Followed Or Policed

[petercallen]

Some of the things i have noticed

A lot of builders are using mild steel round to reinforce the concrete instead of re-bar,they use re-bar here to make illegal sidecars for motorbikes and tools but not for reinforcing concrete which it is designed for

Why use mild steel it does not reinforce the concrete or make it stronger probably weaker

Soil compaction i have not seen done here, they just fill with loose soil and then pour concrete on top, major cracking problems in the future

A lot of builders are using breeze or cinder blocks for walls and swimming pools

they use cement at the top and bottom but not between the ends

Swimming pools are supposed to be concrete not hollow cement blocks

Filling in land to make it high enough to build on but not installing drainage

which means the houses flood after heavy rain

Maybe some of the spec builders and pool builders who follow this forum can give there opinion of building practices here

[KarenBravo]

I think you've just answered your own question that's in the thread title.

[stevehaigh]

what do you mean 'A lot of builders are using mild steel round to reinforce the concrete instead of re-bar,'? of course they use re-bar, what else could you use?

there are typically 2 grades or rebar so not all 12mm is 12mm however, you have to order by weight and that should be specified on the plans. also some type have ribs and some are smooth. the ribbed one is call 'kor oi' in thai and the smooth is called 'dem' meaning full. on the plans it will say 'RB' or 'DB'

if you are building in thailand you have to supervise your self or find a competent manager who will check every detail of the construction and the quality of the concrete. read my book, 'how to buy land and build a house in thailand'

http://www.amazon.com/How-Land-Build-House-Thailand/dp/1887521712

[petercallen]

what do you mean 'A lot of builders are using mild steel round to reinforce the concrete instead of re-bar,'? of course they use re-bar, what else could you use?

there are typically 2 grades or rebar so not all 12mm is 12mm however, you have to order by weight and that should be specified on the plans. also some type have ribs and some are smooth. the ribbed one is call 'kor oi' in thai and the smooth is called 'dem' meaning full. on the plans it will say 'RB' or 'DB'

if you are building in thailand you have to supervise your self or find a competent manager who will check every detail of the construction and the quality of the concrete. read my book, 'how to buy land and build a house in thailand'

http://www.amazon.com/How-Land-Build-House-Thailand/dp/1887521712

Re bar is high tensile steel and cannot be easily bent, the mild steel bar used here you can bend in your hands

What qualifications do people have here who build themselves all the ones i have talked to have none which would be internationally recognised

[KarenBravo]

What is specified on the plans to get approval isn't necessarily what is built.

[steelepulse]

What is specified on the plans to get approval isn't necessarily what is built.

When I had our house built, our architect spelled out quite clearly in the BOQ what size of rebar and how much rebar should be used in the quotation. 2 out of the 3 contractors decided it was overkill so left it out of their bids, at which point the architect called them on it and the reply was that typical sheepish grin when someone has been caught out. We went with the contractor that actually read what was required. To ( try to) ensure the contractor didn't cut corners, we hired someone to oversee the work.

[petercallen]

What is specified on the plans to get approval isn't necessarily what is built.

When I had our house built, our architect spelled out quite clearly in the BOQ what size of rebar and how much rebar should be used in the quotation. 2 out of the 3 contractors decided it was overkill so left it out of their bids, at which point the architect called them on it and the reply was that typical sheepish grin when someone has been caught out. We went with the contractor that actually read what was required. To ( try to) ensure the contractor didn't cut corners, we hired someone to oversee the work.

You built for yourself and wanted the house to last without structural problems

The spec builders here cut corners on everything they can and only give a 1 year

warranty, when looking at houses they were asking up to 4 times the building costs

and wondering why they cannot sell them, easy to work out if you have a good look

around the difference in price with a genuine sellers and spec builders is huge

[stevehaigh]

Re bar is high tensile steel and cannot be easily bent, the mild steel bar used here you can bend in your hands

What qualifications do people have here who build themselves all the ones i have talked to have none which would be internationally recognised

according to wikipedia 'It is usually formed from carbon steel,' and 'Common rebar is made of unfinished tempered steel'. it a long time since i did any concrete work in the UK or the states but i don't remember the steel been significantly different to here,.

i think high tensile steel would be hard to work with, have you ever tried to bend 20mm steel, it takes 5 beefy burmese guys to do it.

the architects will design with thai steel in mind, that's why they massively over engineer everything (that plus covering their ass to protect against structural problems and bad building)

i think the biggest problem isn't the size or quality of the steel, its the way they build it. not enough space between the steel and the side walls of the forms or the ground, so that it can become exposed to water and ultimately rust out. also the concrete is often way too wet and not vibrated properly, or at all and dried too quickly. that's why you have to be on site for every concrete pour to check the steel clearance, concrete quality and vibrating. if the concrete is coming out of the truck too wet, force them to throw in a couple of bags of cement until you get the right consistency. then keep it out of the sun and damp for a couple of weeks.

Edited August 27, 2012 by stevehaigh

[petercallen]

Re bar is high tensile steel and cannot be easily bent, the mild steel bar used here you can bend in your hands

What qualifications do people have here who build themselves all the ones i have talked to have none which would be internationally recognised

according to wikipedia 'It is usually formed from carbon steel,' and 'Common rebar is made of unfinished tempered steel'. it a long time since i did any concrete work in the UK or the states but i don't remember the steel been significantly different to here,.

i think high tensile steel would be hard to work with, have you ever tried to bend 20mm steel, it takes 5 beefy burmese guys to do it.

the architects will design with thai steel in mind, that's why they massively over engineer everything (that plus covering their ass to protect against structural problems and bad building)

i think the biggest problem isn't the size or quality of the steel, its the way they build it. not enough space between the steel and the side walls of the forms or the ground, so that it can become exposed to water and ultimately rust out. also the concrete is often way too wet and not vibrated properly, or at all and dried too quickly. that's why you have to be on site for every concrete pour to check the steel clearance, concrete quality and vibrating. if the concrete is coming out of the truck too wet, force them to throw in a couple of bags of cement until you get the right consistency. then keep it out of the sun and damp for a couple of weeks.

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

[LivinginKata]

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

Seen them use a vibrator to compact/settle concrete many times. We rented one and use it when pouring columns & floors on our building.

[stevehaigh]

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

every house i've built (12) we use 2 concrete vibrators. that is necessary because beams are usually poured at 2 ends. if you only have one vibrator, its easy to forget how far you have gone on one end as you vibrate the other. i always have 2 guys that do nothing but vibrate. if anybody builds concrete structures (beams, posts, footings) without vibrating, your concrete strength will be reduced by 10-20%, maybe more.

also, if you can't bend the steel how do you built a house with it? the end of every beam must have a bend in the steel to hook into the concrete. rebar doesn't work because its not bendy; it is like wet spaghetti over long spans. it works because it has tensile strength (resists stretching).

Edited August 27, 2012 by stevehaigh

[petercallen]

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

every house i've built (12) we use 2 concrete vibrators. that is necessary because beams are usually poured at 2 ends. if you only have one vibrator, its easy to forget how far you have gone on one end as you vibrate the other. i always have 2 guys that do nothing but vibrate. if anybody builds concrete structures (beams, posts, footings) without vibrating, your concrete strength will be reduced by 10-20%, maybe more.

also, if you can't bend the steel how do you built a house with it? the end of every beam must have a bend in the steel to hook into the concrete. rebar doesn't work because its not bendy; it is like wet spaghetti over long spans. it works because it has tensile strength (resists stretching).

You can bend re bar but it is not easy to do, using heat makes it easier

I stick to what i have already said a lot of spec builders build as cheaply as possible and want high extremely prices

You do not see Thais buying from them but usually newbie expats who do not take the time and check prices and values for themselves but believe what they are told by builders

[petercallen]

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

Seen them use a vibrator to compact/settle concrete many times. We rented one and use it when pouring columns & floors on our building.

I would not have a clue how you built your apartments, but the ones opposite you were built with steel that came in about 10 metre lengths and the whole bundle 50 or a 100 lengths had been bent in the middle to fit on the trucks tray

You cannot bend re bar like that only mild steel round

I did not see them using vibrators there although they mat have

Vibrating compactors should also be used to compact the soil before pouring concrete

Edited August 27, 2012 by petercallen

[jocko]

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

every house i've built (12) we use 2 concrete vibrators. that is necessary because beams are usually poured at 2 ends. if you only have one vibrator, its easy to forget how far you have gone on one end as you vibrate the other. i always have 2 guys that do nothing but vibrate. if anybody builds concrete structures (beams, posts, footings) without vibrating, your concrete strength will be reduced by 10-20%, maybe more.

also, if you can't bend the steel how do you built a house with it? the end of every beam must have a bend in the steel to hook into the concrete. rebar doesn't work because its not bendy; it is like wet spaghetti over long spans. it works because it has tensile strength (resists stretching).

You can bend re bar but it is not easy to do, using heat makes it easier

I stick to what i have already said a lot of spec builders build as cheaply as possible and want high extremely prices

You do not see Thais buying from them but usually newbie expats who do not take the time and check prices and values for themselves but believe what they are told by builders

You bend with a bender and formers same as you bend steel tube for handrails or pipework surely you must have seen pre formed re bar on trucks going to big new build sites already formed into cage like shapes sometimes wired together or tack welded at the joints i have worked on sites where they bend it on site for thin steel you use a hand tools and on thicker steel hydraulics.

As far as i'm concerned Thai builders just make make do with what they have got so if you want a good build you have to supervise all aspect of construction and materials starting with the sand.

[petercallen]

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

every house i've built (12) we use 2 concrete vibrators. that is necessary because beams are usually poured at 2 ends. if you only have one vibrator, its easy to forget how far you have gone on one end as you vibrate the other. i always have 2 guys that do nothing but vibrate. if anybody builds concrete structures (beams, posts, footings) without vibrating, your concrete strength will be reduced by 10-20%, maybe more.

also, if you can't bend the steel how do you built a house with it? the end of every beam must have a bend in the steel to hook into the concrete. rebar doesn't work because its not bendy; it is like wet spaghetti over long spans. it works because it has tensile strength (resists stretching).

You can bend re bar but it is not easy to do, using heat makes it easier

I stick to what i have already said a lot of spec builders build as cheaply as possible and want high extremely prices

You do not see Thais buying from them but usually newbie expats who do not take the time and check prices and values for themselves but believe what they are told by builders

You bend with a bender and formers same as you bend steel tube for handrails or pipework surely you must have seen pre formed re bar on trucks going to big new build sites already formed into cage like shapes sometimes wired together or tack welded at the joints i have worked on sites where they bend it on site for thin steel you use a hand tools and on thicker steel hydraulics.

As far as i'm concerned Thai builders just make make do with what they have got so if you want a good build you have to supervise all aspect of construction and materials starting with the sand.

The only steel i have seen delivered are lengths of mild steel round

No re bar of any kind

[stevehaigh]

The only steel i have seen delivered are lengths of mild steel round

No re bar of any kind

go in any building shop on the island, they all have rebar. that is the only thing anyone would use on concrete construction. other forms of steel bar would be too expensive.

Edited August 27, 2012 by stevehaigh

[KarenBravo]

When building my house they used R-bar (the knobbly kind) and bent it using tools.

The concrete was vibrated using some kind of a wand thingy.

Any building site I've seen has R-bar with people bending it into cages for columns and pillars.

[petercallen]

The only steel i have seen delivered are lengths of mild steel round

No re bar of any kind

go in any building shop on the island, they all have rebar. that is the only thing anyone would use on concrete construction. other forms of steel bar would be too expensive.

I do not doubt re bar is available at all building material suppliers on the island

They are using mild steel round and wiring it together to make suitable shapes

in the 5 houses next to us and it is cheaper than re bar

They have constructed the swimming pools out of those hollow cement blocks and one of them is already leaking

[jocko]

The only steel i have seen delivered are lengths of mild steel round

No re bar of any kind

go in any building shop on the island, they all have rebar. that is the only thing anyone would use on concrete construction. other forms of steel bar would be too expensive.

Spot on thats why all sidecars you see are made of rebar(CHEAP STEEL) or free from the nearest building site

[petercallen]

When building my house they used R-bar (the knobbly kind) and bent it using tools.

The concrete was vibrated using some kind of a wand thingy.

Any building site I've seen has R-bar with people bending it into cages for columns and pillars.

Sounds like your concrete was finished with a trowelling machine it has blades

on it like a aeroplane propeller, you compact the soil beneath the concrete not the concrete it should settle naturally its self just needs finishing

[petercallen]

The only steel i have seen delivered are lengths of mild steel round

No re bar of any kind

go in any building shop on the island, they all have rebar. that is the only thing anyone would use on concrete construction. other forms of steel bar would be too expensive.

Spot on thats why all sidecars you see are made of rebar(CHEAP STEEL) or free from the nearest building site

Why don't you price mild steel round yourself then you will know its much cheaper than re bar

[jocko]

The only steel i have seen delivered are lengths of mild steel round

No re bar of any kind

go in any building shop on the island, they all have rebar. that is the only thing anyone would use on concrete construction. other forms of steel bar would be too expensive.

I do not doubt re bar is available at all building material suppliers on the island

They are using mild steel round and wiring it together to make suitable shapes

in the 5 houses next to us and it is cheaper than re bar

They have constructed the swimming pools out of those hollow cement blocks and one of them is already leaking

I believe what you say but in all my years of passing building sites in Thailand and having a look i have never seen them using anything other than rebar not always the right dia i might add

[NomadJoe]

Out of curiosity I asked my friend who owns and runs a construction company in Phuket to look at this thread. Here is what he said.

Steve Haigh knows what he is talking about.

Of course builders here cut corners and will do as much as they can to save money, particularly if it can be hidden, however it is not always as bad here as Peter Callen implies in his post.

Rebar is normally made from Mild Steel which is formed then heat tempered, it still can and should be able to be bent; what is important is the Young's Modulus of the Steel (Ratio of Stress/Strain) and the minimum yield strength. Often building designs here are in fact over engineered; the concrete frame structure has may advantages over the load bearing wall designs we see in Europe and most importantly they are more tolerant to poor building methods.

As regards the OP headline, there are no building regulation type controls in Thailland per se, builders self regulate which is scary - anyone running a project would be well advised to hire an independant third party else they will end up with a very long list of problems to resolve like the new to Thailand next door neighbour of a good friend of mine for example (he was offered Project Management but turned it down as he thought he could easily do it himself).

Edited August 27, 2012 by NomadJoe

[billythehat]

Re bar is high tensile steel and cannot be easily bent, the mild steel bar used here you can bend in your hands

What qualifications do people have here who build themselves all the ones i have talked to have none which would be internationally recognised

according to wikipedia 'It is usually formed from carbon steel,' and 'Common rebar is made of unfinished tempered steel'. it a long time since i did any concrete work in the UK or the states but i don't remember the steel been significantly different to here,.

i think high tensile steel would be hard to work with, have you ever tried to bend 20mm steel, it takes 5 beefy burmese guys to do it.

the architects will design with thai steel in mind, that's why they massively over engineer everything (that plus covering their ass to protect against structural problems and bad building)

i think the biggest problem isn't the size or quality of the steel, its the way they build it. not enough space between the steel and the side walls of the forms or the ground, so that it can become exposed to water and ultimately rust out. also the concrete is often way too wet and not vibrated properly, or at all and dried too quickly. that's why you have to be on site for every concrete pour to check the steel clearance, concrete quality and vibrating. if the concrete is coming out of the truck too wet, force them to throw in a couple of bags of cement until you get the right consistency. then keep it out of the sun and damp for a couple of weeks.

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

“And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it”

I’ve been chortling my way through some of the replies and this is the best one yet...oh, me sides hab gone again.

A few points though regarding other comments/posts; the Architect does not design the reinforcement and neither should he. This is the job of the Structural Engineer and I won’t bore anybody with the design process for reinforced concrete, but essentially; calculate the loads (say for a given beam/column) and assume a cross-sectional size. From design tables, a minimum area of steel required for that cross-sectional area will give the Engineer the data for the diameter and number of bars required. The various shapes used in the design, straights, shear links, etc, are given in the bar bending schedule for the items to be fabricated, usually off-site. You are not required to bend these with your own bare hands, although I would be impressed if you could demonstrate. Concrete is strong in compression but weak in tension and that is why steel is used to form a composite structural member. The lower of the 2 strength yields specified by the code for reinforcement (460 N/mm high, 260 low) can be specified by the Engineer for cases of low loadings or ties in low tension, but generally high yield bars will specified in most cases.

[petercallen]

Re bar is high tensile steel and cannot be easily bent, the mild steel bar used here you can bend in your hands

What qualifications do people have here who build themselves all the ones i have talked to have none which would be internationally recognised

according to wikipedia 'It is usually formed from carbon steel,' and 'Common rebar is made of unfinished tempered steel'. it a long time since i did any concrete work in the UK or the states but i don't remember the steel been significantly different to here,.

i think high tensile steel would be hard to work with, have you ever tried to bend 20mm steel, it takes 5 beefy burmese guys to do it.

the architects will design with thai steel in mind, that's why they massively over engineer everything (that plus covering their ass to protect against structural problems and bad building)

i think the biggest problem isn't the size or quality of the steel, its the way they build it. not enough space between the steel and the side walls of the forms or the ground, so that it can become exposed to water and ultimately rust out. also the concrete is often way too wet and not vibrated properly, or at all and dried too quickly. that's why you have to be on site for every concrete pour to check the steel clearance, concrete quality and vibrating. if the concrete is coming out of the truck too wet, force them to throw in a couple of bags of cement until you get the right consistency. then keep it out of the sun and damp for a couple of weeks.

Carbon steel,tempered steel, high tensile same same it will not bend

And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it

Never seen any concrete where they have used a vibrator here to settle and compact it,just pored and left to dry some times not in one batch

“And re bar has a rough Finnish to it so the concrete will stick to it”

I’ve been chortling my way through some of the replies and this is the best one yet...oh, me sides hab gone again.

A few points though regarding other comments/posts; the Architect does not design the reinforcement and neither should he. This is the job of the Structural Engineer and I won’t bore anybody with the design process for reinforced concrete, but essentially; calculate the loads (say for a given beam/column) and assume a cross-sectional size. From design tables, a minimum area of steel required for that cross-sectional area will give the Engineer the data for the diameter and number of bars required. The various shapes used in the design, straights, shear links, etc, are given in the bar bending schedule for the items to be fabricated, usually off-site. You are not required to bend these with your own bare hands, although I would be impressed if you could demonstrate. Concrete is strong in compression but weak in tension and that is why steel is used to form a composite structural member. The lower of the 2 strength yields specified by the code for reinforcement (460 N/mm high, 260 low) can be specified by the Engineer for cases of low loadings or ties in low tension, but generally high yield bars will specified in most cases.

If the re bar has a rough circular finish why do they use this finish instead of a smooth finish???

[petercallen]

Out of curiosity I asked my friend who owns and runs a construction company in Phuket to look at this thread. Here is what he said.

Steve Haigh knows what he is talking about.

Of course builders here cut corners and will do as much as they can to save money, particularly if it can be hidden, however it is not always as bad here as Peter Callen implies in his post.

Rebar is normally made from Mild Steel which is formed then heat tempered, it still can and should be able to be bent; what is important is the Young's Modulus of the Steel (Ratio of Stress/Strain) and the minimum yield strength. Often building designs here are in fact over engineered; the concrete frame structure has may advantages over the load bearing wall designs we see in Europe and most importantly they are more tolerant to poor building methods.

As regards the OP headline, there are no building regulation type controls in Thailland per se, builders self regulate which is scary - anyone running a project would be well advised to hire an independant third party else they will end up with a very long list of problems to resolve like the new to Thailand next door neighbour of a good friend of mine for example (he was offered Project Management but turned it down as he thought he could easily do it himself).

I do not disagree with your friend in construction although he is not about to say anything bad about the building industry thats how he makes his income

I looked at the possibility of having a house built if we could not find a suitable one

Everyone thinks they can be a builder here, a wall and floor tiler, a plumber and a bloke who claimed to be a

engineer but could not tell me in what profession, probably a ships engineer and a brickies laborer.

If i do build a house in the future which is a possibility i will look for someone with suitable qualifications to supervise it for me

[jocko]

Out of curiosity I asked my friend who owns and runs a construction company in Phuket to look at this thread. Here is what he said.

Steve Haigh knows what he is talking about.

Of course builders here cut corners and will do as much as they can to save money, particularly if it can be hidden, however it is not always as bad here as Peter Callen implies in his post.

Rebar is normally made from Mild Steel which is formed then heat tempered, it still can and should be able to be bent; what is important is the Young's Modulus of the Steel (Ratio of Stress/Strain) and the minimum yield strength. Often building designs here are in fact over engineered; the concrete frame structure has may advantages over the load bearing wall designs we see in Europe and most importantly they are more tolerant to poor building methods.

As regards the OP headline, there are no building regulation type controls in Thailland per se, builders self regulate which is scary - anyone running a project would be well advised to hire an independant third party else they will end up with a very long list of problems to resolve like the new to Thailand next door neighbour of a good friend of mine for example (he was offered Project Management but turned it down as he thought he could easily do it himself).

I do not disagree with your friend in construction although he is not about to say anything bad about the building industry thats how he makes his income

I looked at the possibility of having a house built if we could not find a suitable one

Everyone thinks they can be a builder here, a wall and floor tiler, a plumber and a bloke who claimed to be a

engineer but could not tell me in what profession, probably a ships engineer and a brickies laborer.

If i do build a house in the future which is a possibility i will look for someone with suitable qualifications to supervise it for me

For peace of mind that is the way to go but on saying that i had a house built in Patong i had no input in the build as i was in the UK my Thai wife done it all and in 5 years it was as good as new no cracks no problems at all the only thing i could say the quailty of the the windows and doors, bathroom fittings. fly screens sinks etc was poor so things like that it is better to pick yourself i might add the workmanship on the build was very good better than you would get in the UK so with a bit of care you can get a quailty build in Thailand i have found that most Thai people i know look at price first good stuff is to expensive for them they dont see the long term view

[billythehat]

If the re bar has a rough circular finish why do they use this finish instead of a smooth finish???

Typically a mechanical property which allows the rebar to be easily formed and fabricated whilst maintaining maximum tensile strength. Elongation is an important property to fabricators who perform numerous bending operations. I’m fear you may have confused yourself in respect to the criteria of bond and anchorage. I strongly suggest you take your own advice and seek professional help.

[BabyJebus]

speaking of that, my neighbor just started adding on to his house. The kitchen in the back was not reinforced and was built directly on the limit wall.

Took 1 week and now the whole front of the house is completely cracked, the house is bending in 2.

mai pen lai, right?

[petercallen]

If the re bar has a rough circular finish why do they use this finish instead of a smooth finish???

Typically a mechanical property which allows the rebar to be easily formed and fabricated whilst maintaining maximum tensile strength. Elongation is an important property to fabricators who perform numerous bending operations. I’m fear you may have confused yourself in respect to the criteria of bond and anchorage. I strongly suggest you take your own advice and seek professional help.

Codswallop