Youve Gotta Be Nutz To Buy Property In Thailand

[Dragonman]

Leases are ok for commercial property but for residental houses one could have problems in the future as leases can be cancelled by the owner for a number of reasons and you may not be entitled to any compensation.

How? Other than if you breach a condition.

[LoveDaBlues]

I've chosen to live in the Issan area. I'm just not a 'beach' person even though I grew up 1 block from the beach. Fly over Issan. Make mental note to self, 'holy <deleted> there's a ton on land NOT developed'. In our lifetimes you will always be able to purchase land cheaply in Issan if you are patient. Right now I choose to rent as it is so cheap. My house feels like home and indeed maybe someday I will build a house but why spend 2-3 million baht building a house (nice plot of land and super house) when I currently rent a nice place with no neighbors for 6,000 baht per month? With even my limited math skills it makes no sense.

Another plus with renting....none of the hassles that go with building.

My 2 baht.

Steve

[billd766]

IMO most "pro rent" posts like these are from folks who don't want to be the last ones 'not on the property ownership boat' as opposed to being on some kind of altruistic mission to protect their fellow foreigners' financial assets from the local legal system. There are plenty of falang owners out and about, and their property is perfectly safe and sound, under the true ownership of their Thai husbands and wives.

I agree with you 100% Heng.

I, through my wife, have 15 rai of land that we do a bit of farming on, and being "Nutz" as the OP puts it we just bought another 11 rai today at 30,000 baht a rai.

Of course we live out in the sticks in the central region but I suspect that if I wanted to buy the smae amount of land in the UK for example I think that 10 acres of land with planning permission etc would cost me maybe 1/2 million GBP and I would not be permitted to do what I want to do with it.

In Thailand up country nobody really cares what you do with your land and as far as I know my wife and I will be together until I die (I am 21 years older at 61) barring accidents.

with my first UK wife we bought a place near Portsmouth for £72,000 in 1987. I lost it in the divorce and she sold it last year for £170,000.

However much money I spend here on land and property I will not lose as much as I did there.

So why worry, you can't take it with you so enjoy while you can.

Agree 100% Billd! Oh forgot, not 100%. If you had 10 acres of development land for sale in Uk for 1/2 million quid you would be killed in the rush. Before I moved here 5 years ago was selling 10 acres on mountain tops to major developers for 2.5 million.

Sorry Dragonman but I haven't really lived in the UK since 1991 so I have no real idea of land prices. I know land isn't being made any more but some of the prices I have seen for places in the UK you need to earn £2 or £300,000 a year just to get a mortgage.

I feel sorry for my son as he will have to get a mortgage and pay it off over the next 150 years, if he doesn't loose his job.

[Krub]

I've chosen to live in the Issan area. I'm just not a 'beach' person even though I grew up 1 block from the beach. Fly over Issan. Make mental note to self, 'holy <deleted> there's a ton on land NOT developed'. In our lifetimes you will always be able to purchase land cheaply in Issan if you are patient. Right now I choose to rent as it is so cheap. My house feels like home and indeed maybe someday I will build a house but why spend 2-3 million baht building a house (nice plot of land and super house) when I currently rent a nice place with no neighbors for 6,000 baht per month? With even my limited math skills it makes no sense.

Another plus with renting....none of the hassles that go with building.

My 2 baht.

Steve

For 6.000 baht/month x 12 months x 30 years = over 2 mio baht

For that amount I prefer to build to my specification

[johnnyk]

Another plus with renting....none of the hassles that go with building.

My 2 baht.

Steve

I'm a buyer not a renter.

If you buy/build at least they are your own hassles.

You can rent for years and be thrown out the next day with nothing to show for the money you paid month after month.

Need repairs? The landlord might disagree so you live in a slum or move with all the fun that entails.

You have to pay for shelter somehow so I'd rather pay it to myself.

[LoveDaBlues]

hmm......put 2 million baht in a house? Let's see....I've made 12% on my money for many years now. So this pays 20,000 baht a month on the 2 million. After paying rent of 6,000 baht I've got 14,000 baht left for whatever each month PLUS I keep the 2 million baht intact. I prefer this route.

I'm not saying I'm RIGHT I'm just saying this makes more sense TO ME.

***********************************

Quote:

You can rent for years and be thrown out the next day with nothing to show for the money you paid month after month.

Wrong. First of all my lease requires a 1 month notice; can't be 'thrown out' in a day. Nothing to show for the money? Sure there is.....shelter! When you spend money for food each month do you think you got 'nothing to show for the money' just because both the money and food are gone? Same with taking a nice vacation. Money is gone.....vacation is over..... but you received something for it.

***********************************

Quote:

Need repairs? The landlord might disagree so you live in a slum or move with all the fun that entails.

Wrong. My landlord takes care of repairs. Guess what...even if he didn't so what this is Thailand.....costs next to nothing for repairs. Labor 130-150 baht a day...parts cheap...no brainer.

BTW....my 4 BR, 3 bath rental house comes FURNISHED so if I have to move not a big problem at all.

**********************************

Only good argument for building AT THIS TIME in my opinion is you can design house to your specs.

**********************************

Big downside to building/owning that no one wants to mention. The area of Thailand I like (Issan) has NO zoning as far as I've been able to determine. Good luck with building that 2-3 million baht house and 4 months later someone opens a restaurant, motorcycle repair, or karoke bar next door. See how much you enjoy paradise after that happens. If I'm wrong on the zoning issue please correct me....I hope I am wrong........lack of zoning here sucks IMO. By renting if the neighborhood goes bad I have the option of moving and can do so quickly. If you own a house not so easy.......in fact can be nearly impossible unless you want to take a huge loss.

Steve

[Heng]

One good way to plan for that is to buy as much of the surrounding property / units as possible.

[brahmburgers]

I must be doubly 'nutz' as I not only bought land in Thailand, but I bought land without title. That was seven years ago and it enabled me to do things I could never have done in the California for the money I made there. In other words, I got 5 acres, planted hundreds of trees; mostly pine and fruits that aren't available in Thailand - plus built a kick-ass house. I didn't put the land in a wife's or girlfirend's name (that to me would be additionaly 'nutz') instead I put it in a trusted Thai person's name whom I still trust - plus we have a seperate contract agreement. I think it's ok to purchase land here - especially if it's a cheap enough deal that you can afford to lose it in worse case scenario - kind of like going to Vegas and allowing yourself $50 to wager. My wager for the 5 acres here was under $5,000 and it's shaping up like a little paradise. Check with me in 7 more years and I may be a 'grave man' (kudos to Shakespeare's "Romeo and Julie t")

[FlyingDutchman]

I must be doubly 'nutz' as I not only bought land in Thailand, but I bought land without title. That was seven years ago and it enabled me to do things I could never have done in the California for the money I made there. In other words, I got 5 acres, planted hundreds of trees; mostly pine and fruits that aren't available in Thailand - plus built a kick-ass house. I didn't put the land in a wife's or girlfirend's name (that to me would be additionaly 'nutz') instead I put it in a trusted Thai person's name whom I still trust - plus we have a seperate contract agreement. I think it's ok to purchase land here - especially if it's a cheap enough deal that you can afford to lose it in worse case scenario - kind of like going to Vegas and allowing yourself $50 to wager. My wager for the 5 acres here was under $5,000 and it's shaping up like a little paradise. Check with me in 7 more years and I may be a 'grave man' (kudos to Shakespeare's "Romeo and Julie t")

You own the house 100% ?

[Heng]

Sure, if the gov't never wants the land back. That's the risk with title-less land. IMO, it CAN be a good purchase depending on your reason for wanting the land. If you're looking for a place to live out your days and are wagering that 1) development/civilization will never reach your land (when a piece of land with no title suddenly becomes valuable, that's when 3 types of manure hit the fan) and/or 2) you're betting that you'll be able to make 10 years of squatter's rights stick and/or 3) no one who is more important than you will decide to try to take the land from you in court.... etc. etc. In short, the OP is correct. It is a wager of sorts. But so are a lot of things in life.

If you're looking for something to hold onto long term (to live on, to own, to rent out, to pass on from generation to generation), IMO land with title is the only way to go.

[RAZZELL]

As the above poster says...when it's worth something...see what happens.

Eg Koh Chang, Samet etc

But "up to you" and all the best

[Krub]

hmm......put 2 million baht in a house? Let's see....I've made 12% on my money for many years now. So this pays 20,000 baht a month on the 2 million. After paying rent of 6,000 baht I've got 14,000 baht left for whatever each month PLUS I keep the 2 million baht intact. I prefer this route.

I'm not saying I'm RIGHT I'm just saying this makes more sense TO ME.

12% on 2 mio baht ? must be a risky investment with no guarantee at all. I prefer to be guaranteed a 30 year's peace of mind in a house build to my specs rtaher than risk the loss of the 2 mio

[JimsKnight]

Given the horrific legal system in Thailand, and the rumored treatment of farang in these courts, why would you possibley want to buy property here? Y ou cant even own it outright for chrissakes. Who even wants to mess around with it then? I cant imagine dropping 8 million baht on a condo in Bangkok, to find out in five years that it was built like crap or is being maintained like crap. What kind of gurantee do you have in Thailand? Absolutely zero.

Invest your money and rent.

I fully support this, I asked the forum seven months ago if anyone had ever made money on buying/selling houses and only one person answered yes saying he'd heard of someone!

If you try selling the houses/condos at prices that daft falangs pay for them to a thai you'll get laughed out of the country!

I ask the same question once again....

HAS ANY FALANG MADE MONEY BUYING AND SUBSEQUENTLY SELLING A HOUSE OR A CONDO.

Speak now or forever hold your title deeds!

[johnnyk]

Not the biggest sample size on here for it to mean anything, Jim.

[sriracha john]

I prefer to be guaranteed a 30 year's peace of mind in a house

sorry to chuckle at your statement... but we ARE talking about Thailand, right?

of course...in the end, we all have to decide which route is best for us to take... and both sides have pros and cons.

[Sir Burr]

Lots and lots of Westerners have and are making money buying and selling houses/land in Phuket.

Most of the luxury estates were built by Westerners.

I bought 1.6 rai of land in 1999 at 1.5 million baht per rai. The last land in my soi sold three months ago for 5.5 million per rai.

I built a house on the land. The total cost was 8.5 million baht. It is now valued at between 15 and 18 million baht.

I do grant you that Phuket and Ko Samui are exceptions. Land prices just keep going up and up.

[Cassandra]

I am with the "Buy" brigade.

Simply because I wanted something that I could personalise and that would be a legacy for my Wife when I die.

As previously stated the cost was no more than I paid for my last car in the UK. I am also currently buying a Condo in Bangkok in my own name (just because I CAN buy it in my name).

I am not that much bothered if prices go up or down as I don't intend selling either. I also own propery back home so that will always be worth a lot and will end up being a legacy for my 3 children, in the meantime I rent it out and that gives me an income of 45,000 baht a month.

I DO beleive however that if it would take your last satang to buy out here or if you bought with finance and if your marriage/relationship broke up and you not left with enough cash to live on then it is better to rent.

I FULLY accept that if my Marriage broke down I would loose the house, but that still would be a lot less than I lost when my last marriage in the UK failed where I OWNED the house, but my ex-Wife got the biggest chunk of it, even though we had no children together

So my take is BUY if you can really afford it- RENT if you can't, it is not rocket science

TP

Too simplistic an approach and extremely misleading.I own a house through my wife in central Bangkok but for many,I would suspect the majority of farang, it makes sense to rent.For selected properties in Koh Samui and Phuket buying can make sense but in many cases doesn't.I have British and Australian friends in Bangkok, with a net worth of many US Dlrs Millions who prefer to rent.

[Krub]

I prefer to be guaranteed a 30 year's peace of mind in a house

sorry to chuckle at your statement... but we ARE talking about Thailand, right?

of course...in the end, we all have to decide which route is best for us to take... and both sides have pros and cons.

Don't be sorry, I was comparing it to putting the 2 mio in an investment that 'would' give me a return of 12%......to pay for the rent of the land/house and enable me to keep the capital. I have seen too many 2mio lost forever in so called investments (outside of Thailand....)

[ThaiPauly]

I am with the "Buy" brigade.

Simply because I wanted something that I could personalise and that would be a legacy for my Wife when I die.

As previously stated the cost was no more than I paid for my last car in the UK. I am also currently buying a Condo in Bangkok in my own name (just because I CAN buy it in my name).

I am not that much bothered if prices go up or down as I don't intend selling either. I also own propery back home so that will always be worth a lot and will end up being a legacy for my 3 children, in the meantime I rent it out and that gives me an income of 45,000 baht a month.

I DO beleive however that if it would take your last satang to buy out here or if you bought with finance and if your marriage/relationship broke up and you not left with enough cash to live on then it is better to rent.

I FULLY accept that if my Marriage broke down I would loose the house, but that still would be a lot less than I lost when my last marriage in the UK failed where I OWNED the house, but my ex-Wife got the biggest chunk of it, even though we had no children together

So my take is BUY if you can really afford it- RENT if you can't, it is not rocket science

TP

Too simplistic an approach and extremely misleading.I own a house through my wife in central Bangkok but for many,I would suspect the majority of farang, it makes sense to rent.For selected properties in Koh Samui and Phuket buying can make sense but in many cases doesn't.I have British and Australian friends in Bangkok, with a net worth of many US Dlrs Millions who prefer to rent.

Sorry but I don't think my post was misleading, it may be simplistic, but how can you argue that it is misleading? It was supposed to be simplistic as that what it is

Those that can afford to buy and are not too bothered if they lost what they had bought because of whatever reason have a CHOICE to do so or not.

I am certainly not advocating that if you have limited funds or that you are not here for the long haul that you should buy. It is unliklely that you will not get back for it what you pay in many cases, but you have to offset that against the rent you would otherwise be paying.

If you have freinds who have millions of dollars but prefer to rent ,well then that is up to them. You don't know if I have millions of dallars but choose to buy

Personally as I said, I have no intention of selling any of my properties so I am just giving my "take" thats what this forum is all about, giving your PERSONAL opionin which is never going to be shared by everyone.

I hope this clarifies my post Mr.Cassandra

TP

[sriracha john]

I prefer to be guaranteed a 30 year's peace of mind in a house

sorry to chuckle at your statement... but we ARE talking about Thailand, right?

of course...in the end, we all have to decide which route is best for us to take... and both sides have pros and cons.

Don't be sorry, I was comparing it to putting the 2 mio in an investment that 'would' give me a return of 12%......to pay for the rent of the land/house and enable me to keep the capital. I have seen too many 2mio lost forever in so called investments (outside of Thailand....)

True.... as have I.

But I guess it's also a case of "6 of one, half-dozen of the other" when coincidentally, it seems I've seen equal number of "Guaranteed" farang homes in Thailand lost forever for various reasons. Either way has pitfalls.

[xbusman]

Okay, here is simplistic once again. Please, anyone here that has survived and prospered for say longer than twenty years, please feel free to disagree. I spoke with a few old timers and have done a pretty good job avoiding sick buffalo syndrome because I listened carefully to what they told me from years of hard earned experience. The ones I spoke to have repeated over and over:

NEVER PUT MORE MONEY IN THAILAND THAN YOU ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO WALK AWAY FROM.

Now thats simple.

There are people here that can buy five houses, walk away and never notice. I bet when they do buy, they buy premium stuff in all the right places and make a good return on their money. Thats usually why they have so much to begin with.

For those of us that would seriously damage the retirement plan by the loss of a few million baht, what in the world could be so important as to risk the future? Not moving your "stuff" if something goes sour with the landlord? Being able to pick the paint? what????

We are guests here, no rights no privileges. A life choice we all made to live here. Keep it in mind in whatever you do while a guest in the kingdom.

[Firefan]

Good thread here. But the discussion of renting vs buying will ofcourse never be concluded.

I bought a condo here a few years back. Felt that was the best choice for a foreigner compared to buying a house, but I must admit that at current rental levels(cheap/low) it is hard, FROM A PURELY FINANCIAL POINT OF VIEW, to defend buying (talking BKK/Phuket/Samui Etc. as not studied the sticks yet).

Leaving out potential capital gain(or loss!):

I see condos at a real market value (not just buddy sales Etc.) of around B 8M renting out for 25000 Baht a month - that is not even a 4% "return" before maintenance fees, repairs Etc (estimate 1-2%).

So maybe 3% after costs....

A very safe portfolio of stocks/funds/bonds/commodities(fund) can be set up that beats 3%, heck one can get a time deposit at standard shartered bank at 4%+ and much more in time deposits at banks abroad if one wants to diversify currency risk too.

Anyway; buying real estate is about much more than the pure financial picture.

Cheers!

[RAZZELL]

Interesting thread.

There is always an exception the proves...or disproves the rule...TIT

[Krub]

I prefer to be guaranteed a 30 year's peace of mind in a house

sorry to chuckle at your statement... but we ARE talking about Thailand, right?

of course...in the end, we all have to decide which route is best for us to take... and both sides have pros and cons.

Don't be sorry, I was comparing it to putting the 2 mio in an investment that 'would' give me a return of 12%......to pay for the rent of the land/house and enable me to keep the capital. I have seen too many 2mio lost forever in so called investments (outside of Thailand....)

True.... as have I.

But I guess it's also a case of "6 of one, half-dozen of the other" when coincidentally, it seems I've seen equal number of "Guaranteed" farang homes in Thailand lost forever for various reasons. Either way has pitfalls.

Although I am in the 'buying/leasing' camp I would not encourage it for investment purposes. I am only talking of Central Thailand as I am not knowledgeable enough about the status of the situation in Phuket/Samui/Pattaya.

Where I want to live, it is not easy to find suitable rental places that would meet the 'cheap enough rental price/versus the cost of building/leasing calculated even only on 30 years.

[expatgaz]

LOVEDABLUES

Please tell me where you put 2 mil baht to guarentee you 12% ? Not saying your lying but I don't think your telling the trueth either..... let me know as I could do with some.If you come up with the answer I'll stand corrected and apologise

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't quite get the relevance of saying, "I can own a house in Thailand for the price of a new car in the UK." If you could buy a new Rover with spare change, then you can afford to lose 15K pounds in Thailand by throwing the money in the klong. We could talk about teacher's wages in the UK versus Thailand, or the price of som tan in London, but it's irrelevant.

In the West, things like mortgages and land titles were firm (although I lost mine in the USA, lost a second mortgage). The market was well documented, by sale prices recorded accurately at the govt. offices (not so in LOS). Landlords could expect to NET 9 or 10% per year, on average, from rental properties (4% might be more common in LOS). If you're single here, whose name will it be in? Who owns the land? Are you leasing the land? Not if, but WHEN will the property bust occur? Far, far too many unknowns.

I've been renting since I lost it all in bad real estate deals in 1984. If I got a million dollars tomorrow, I doubt I'd spend any more on a house, than I could afford to throw in the klong.

[griser]

I don't quite get the relevance of saying, "I can own a house in Thailand for the price of a new car in the UK." If you could buy a new Rover with spare change, then you can afford to lose 15K pounds in Thailand by throwing the money in the klong. We could talk about teacher's wages in the UK versus Thailand, or the price of som tan in London, but it's irrelevant.

In the West, things like mortgages and land titles were firm (although I lost mine in the USA, lost a second mortgage). The market was well documented, by sale prices recorded accurately at the govt. offices (not so in LOS). Landlords could expect to NET 9 or 10% per year, on average, from rental properties (4% might be more common in LOS). If you're single here, whose name will it be in? Who owns the land? Are you leasing the land? Not if, but WHEN will the property bust occur? Far, far too many unknowns.

I've been renting since I lost it all in bad real estate deals in 1984. If I got a million dollars tomorrow, I doubt I'd spend any more on a house, than I could afford to throw in the klong.

I totally agree with you PB. The real estate climate here is in a state of flux and from what I've seen it will stay that way.

Add to that the nationalistic attitudes of the Thai goverment/People and you have a VERY bad situation for ANY type of real estate investment.

Coming from the midwestern part of America as I do I think that the prices here for real estate aren't all that great. In the area I lived in about 20 mins outside of a major US city I was able to buy a Mansion for about 189,000 US or 7.5 million baht. Im talking about a 5 bedroom 3 story house (about 2800 sq feet of space) two car garage with pillars out front on 1 acre of land, sodded and landscaped (about 4 rai I think). Thai houses in that price range here dont come CLOSE to that size!

I guess you could say that my opinion is that for what you get here in housing it isnt worth the risk.

Greg

[Heng]

One minor detail being left out is that local real estate returns (as well as most non-corporation related revenue) are often tax free.

As for ROI, from my own experience, the percentages are higher. I'm no guru, but I have access to just about any investment instrument in the US and Thailand as a dual citizen, and for long term growth, I am Thai real estate heavy/buy/hold. And again, I'm not saying it should be an either/or choice. By all means diversify.

[LoveDaBlues]

LOVEDABLUES

Please tell me where you put 2 mil baht to guarentee you 12% ? Not saying your lying but I don't think your telling the trueth either..... let me know as I could do with some.If you come up with the answer I'll stand corrected and apologise

Insulting someone you don't know is a poor way to get investment advice. So you keep your apology and I'll keep making the 12%. BTW, as far as risk it's only slightly risker than investing in a United States Certificate of Deposit.

Wish I could say I'm an 'investment specialist' LOL. Actually I know little about investing other than rental units (6) I used to own. Years ago I did a favor for a guy I didn't previously know (involves the sale of a car....long story). Anyway turns out he has multi-millions made thru investing. He took a liking to me after I did him the favor and the rest is history. I've made 12% for roughly the last 5 years. This enabled me to retire sooner with a NICE chunk of cash in the bank. All because I did a favor for someone. Proves the old sayings.....'what goes around comes around.' or 'do good get good; do bad get bad'.

An added bonus is he is now one of my best friends. Not because of the money he's helped me to make but because he is truly a nice human being. He and his wife just got back from 2 weeks in Costa Rica. The travel a lot all over the world. I'm happy for him he's a great guy and deserves everything he has.

[LoveDaBlues]

I am with the "Buy" brigade.

Simply because I wanted something that I could personalise and that would be a legacy for my Wife when I die.

As previously stated the cost was no more than I paid for my last car in the UK. I am also currently buying a Condo in Bangkok in my own name (just because I CAN buy it in my name).

I am not that much bothered if prices go up or down as I don't intend selling either. I also own propery back home so that will always be worth a lot and will end up being a legacy for my 3 children, in the meantime I rent it out and that gives me an income of 45,000 baht a month.

I DO beleive however that if it would take your last satang to buy out here or if you bought with finance and if your marriage/relationship broke up and you not left with enough cash to live on then it is better to rent.

I FULLY accept that if my Marriage broke down I would loose the house, but that still would be a lot less than I lost when my last marriage in the UK failed where I OWNED the house, but my ex-Wife got the biggest chunk of it, even though we had no children together

So my take is BUY if you can really afford it- RENT if you can't, it is not rocket science

TP

Too simplistic an approach and extremely misleading.I own a house through my wife in central Bangkok but for many,I would suspect the majority of farang, it makes sense to rent.For selected properties in Koh Samui and Phuket buying can make sense but in many cases doesn't.I have British and Australian friends in Bangkok, with a net worth of many US Dlrs Millions who prefer to rent.

Cassandra, good post....you hit the nail dead center. Not bragging....but just paid cash for a new Fortuner......I could easily buy/build 12 mill baht house to park it under. I'm not anti-property ownership in Thailand! At this point though rental works best FOR ME. I prefer to keep my cash in U.S. banks and investments at this time. So many posters on this site don't realize there is no right/wrong with regards to this topic. It's a gray area and almost all views valid IMO.

I do like what ThaiPauly said about leaving a house for his wife; a cool thing to do for someone you care about.