Former Thai Pm Abhisit In Court Over 'red Shirt' Protest Deaths

[hellodolly]

Particularly like post #245, good old gemini, especially the bar girl mate bit.

Seriously erudite.

Personally, I would say there are a lot more than 3 people rewriting history.

But of course the people got what they deserved... ie: a bullet... always a quality retort, that one.

IMO, no one deserved to die. There were people on both sides who did not really care about human life. On the UDD side, we don't know who made what decisions, but one can speculate. On the other hand, the angelic Abhisit - based on his choices as PM - was certainly one of those who did not care about the lives of his fellow citizens.

To plagiarize a fellow poster, anyone, especially "with an education beyond grade two could not notice these obvious facts must be trolling, really ignorant, or not even have been here but instead relied on selected social media via their bar girl mate."

OK, technically, that is not plagiarism.

"On the UDD side, we don't know who made what decisions"

In other words we don't know who made the decision to defy the law and hold down town Bangkok as a hostage. We do not know which red shirt fired the first shot. We do not know which red shirt made a deal to end it all and then changed their mind when it was excepted. We do not know the name of the first Red Shirt to light a match.

So let's put all the blame on the dully elected official who's job it was to stop this.

Let's ignore all those Red Shirt leaders parading around on the stage urging there followers to continue to break the law and to burn Bangkok down. Lets just crucify Abhist I would agree with you that he should be crucified for letting it go as long as it did. But when he did act it was for the good of the nation.

Explain to me how just because they are not armed they are innocent when they build barricades cook and wash clothes for the ones with guns and see to it that they have every thing they need to launch rockets at civilians outside the army zone. Plus of course the ammunition to fire on the army.

At first I said wash then I realized it was just there clothing every thing else they left looking like a pig pen and volunteers came in to clean it up. Let us not forget that it was the government that paid transportation for the majority to go home after the Red Shirt leaders had abandoned them. Rumor was that they had also cut their pay off for the last week. But that is just a rumor.

They just abandoned there innocent supporters.

[rubl]

But in Paris and the USA the student protestors did not threaten to burn down the city, nor did they threaten to kill soldiers, nor did they set up unauthorised check points and search civilians at gun point, neither did they build barracades from sharpened bamboo poles and invade hospitals. They also did not dash all hope of peaceful solutions by reneging on previously set and agreed to goals and negotiations. They did not fire lethal weapons and throw explosives at the French or US population and military.

Apart from all that and a bit more, I guess the situations are almost identical.

so, the only thing missing from your non-answer is

"those people shot in 2010 "got what they deserved""

If you think that's missing, does that imply you think it applies to the American/French situation you mentioned ?

[tlansford]

You know guys I really do not understand what you are about, bored, need an outlet for your anger, I really cannot see why you keep on and on, there were peaceful demonstrators, there was an armed faction of extremists, I do not condone the violence and have said so.........

And now amid 3 replies we finaly have the admission that the majority of red shirts were not violent......which is what I said all along and was accused of telling half truths......but unfortunately the action of the government sending in the army caught innocent people.....but you guys cannot handle that....as they say up to you....

Oh and we have one person who thinks blowing innocent people up in one country is just fine but not in another.....and he questions my intelligence!!!

The "innocent people" that the army "caught" weren't the ones that were using hand clappers at Ratchaprasong. They were the ones outside the barricades attacking the army.

or seeking refuge in a temple, or being medically trained staff helping the injured in a temple, or being a photographer or a journalist, or even being one of their own rank whilst going to help them on Viphawadi Road managed to get one soldier shot and killed by another soldier, who just happened to be totally in control and fully aware of what was going on and not just shooting at random people not presenting any immediate danger

If the Thai Police had been a professional outfit and had sealed the crime scene correctly and retrieved bullets for forensic examination then set about gathering army and red shirt weapons for comparison then maybe we would know for a fact what happened as well as identifying the likely culprit .....

why would the Thai police be doing that when it was a military operation?

[rubl]

If the Thai Police had been a professional outfit and had sealed the crime scene correctly and retrieved bullets for forensic examination then set about gathering army and red shirt weapons for comparison then maybe we would know for a fact what happened as well as identifying the likely culprit .....

why would the Thai police be doing that when it was a military operation?

Well, to be honest, the militants were gone so the police could have come back. The army is not really setup to do forensic examinations, mostly just check if a suspect is really dead or no longer a threat.

The real question would be why did PM Abhisit feel the need to call in the army way back begin of April 2010? Why did the police with their special trained crowd control units and their deep understanding of how to protect a crime scene, why did the police not do what they were trained for? Maybe we should ask Dept. PM Pol Captain Chalerm for his insight?

Edited September 3, 2012 by rubl

[phiphidon]

Unfortunately history has shown that when a government decides to start shooting at their own people, creating live fire zones, violence escalates, and resolve appears to increase, perhaps deaths and injury to fellow protestors serve to remove a little of the perfect world ideology you offer above.You see up until the RTA surrounded the encampment there was isolated, sporadic violence, mostly outside the encampment where the peaceful protestors were located.

Good try, but also you know that the life firing zones were established after the violence already escalated and not because of the army! Keep twisting and turning and spreading half lies and half truths! I just wonder why you do this and why you keep lying about peaceful protesters. The reds have a history of violence that go back to at least 2006!

The Army have a much longer history of violence against their own people - that goes back to at least the beginning of the century with the 1901-1902 crackdown on the uprising against taxation with thousands killed and wounded. Its infamous history probably predates that but lets just keep it to this century...........

[rubl]

Unfortunately history has shown that when a government decides to start shooting at their own people, creating live fire zones, violence escalates, and resolve appears to increase, perhaps deaths and injury to fellow protestors serve to remove a little of the perfect world ideology you offer above.You see up until the RTA surrounded the encampment there was isolated, sporadic violence, mostly outside the encampment where the peaceful protestors were located.

Good try, but also you know that the life firing zones were established after the violence already escalated and not because of the army! Keep twisting and turning and spreading half lies and half truths! I just wonder why you do this and why you keep lying about peaceful protesters. The reds have a history of violence that go back to at least 2006!

The Army have a much longer history of violence against their own people - that goes back to at least the beginning of the century with the 1901-1902 crackdown on the uprising against taxation with thousands killed and wounded. Its infamous history probably predates that but lets just keep it to this century...........

Too general and applicable to many armies around the world. I don't want to start an Irish Situation discussion, but was that the army in Northern Ireland ?

Try to stick to the last 10 years, much safer for all

[phiphidon]

Other countries don't have armed protesters shooting back, so it's a bit hard to compare to other countries.

They have them but they call them what they are: armed insurgents.

No, in Thailand armed insurgents are based in the south and specialise in terrorising the local populace by shooting teachers, blowing up soldiers and decapitating innocents.

What are the key differences?

Topologically they appear to me to Be the same

Well in Thailand a certain person decided to call them terrorists and there is a big difference believe me, especially in perception...........

[rubl]

They have them but they call them what they are: armed insurgents.

No, in Thailand armed insurgents are based in the south and specialise in terrorising the local populace by shooting teachers, blowing up soldiers and decapitating innocents.

What are the key differences?

Topologically they appear to me to Be the same

Well in Thailand a certain person decided to call them terrorists and there is a big difference believe me, especially in perception...........

Perception? Maybe I need a medium to try to ask some of the non-red-shirts deads how they perceive the situation and those kindly folks who got them wherever they be now?

[OzMick]

Too general and applicable to many armies around the world. I don't want to start an Irish Situation discussion, but was that the army in Northern Ireland ?

Try to stick to the last 10 years, much safer for all

In your attempt to provoke with your reference to the Northern Ireland Conflict, in 1972 alone over 100 soldiers were killed, 500 injured and there were 1300 bombings (bombs, not grenades). Not quite the same is it?

How many armies do you know, and not some ragtag christian fellowship orange order boy soldier outfit, professional armies, that have regularly shot and killed their fellow countrymen since 1900?

Despot regimes excepted - despite some opinions on here, Thailand still runs under the vestiges of tattered democracy.

Let's do history then Donny - how many peaceful protests have caused the death of 5 security personnel and injured many others (April 10th), and still been allowed to continue weeks later?

[phiphidon]

Perception? Maybe I need a medium to try to ask some of the non-red-shirts deads how they perceive the situation and those kindly folks who got them wherever they be now?

Don't try to be cute or smug rubl, it doesn't work with me. When the abhisit government had to sell the crackdown on the red shirts and its attendant likeliehood of civilian deaths to the Thai people it helps if you can demonise (and dehumanise) the perceived threat. In this modern age the word that is so often abused for this purpose is "terrorist".

Hence my reference to the misuse of the word "insurgent" - it comes from the latin, to rise up (against) and in this day and age sounds more noble, as if the insurgent is fighting for a cause.

No, if you want to get the public on your side whilst you're killing their brothers and sisters, call them "terrorists".

They were right, abhisit was "good for talking"............................

[phiphidon]

Too general and applicable to many armies around the world. I don't want to start an Irish Situation discussion, but was that the army in Northern Ireland ?

Try to stick to the last 10 years, much safer for all

In your attempt to provoke with your reference to the Northern Ireland Conflict, in 1972 alone over 100 soldiers were killed, 500 injured and there were 1300 bombings (bombs, not grenades). Not quite the same is it?

How many armies do you know, and not some ragtag christian fellowship orange order boy soldier outfit, professional armies, that have regularly shot and killed their fellow countrymen since 1900?

Despot regimes excepted - despite some opinions on here, Thailand still runs under the vestiges of tattered democracy.

Let's do history then Donny - how many peaceful protests have caused the death of 5 security personnel and injured many others (April 10th), and still been allowed to continue weeks later?

I don't suppose you've ever heard of one of the most useful facts of life - never answer a question with a question.................

and its PhiPhiDon to my friends, Mr.PhiPhiDon to you.

[OzMick]

Too general and applicable to many armies around the world. I don't want to start an Irish Situation discussion, but was that the army in Northern Ireland ?

Try to stick to the last 10 years, much safer for all

In your attempt to provoke with your reference to the Northern Ireland Conflict, in 1972 alone over 100 soldiers were killed, 500 injured and there were 1300 bombings (bombs, not grenades). Not quite the same is it?

How many armies do you know, and not some ragtag christian fellowship orange order boy soldier outfit, professional armies, that have regularly shot and killed their fellow countrymen since 1900?

Despot regimes excepted - despite some opinions on here, Thailand still runs under the vestiges of tattered democracy.

Let's do history then Donny - how many peaceful protests have caused the death of 5 security personnel and injured many others (April 10th), and still been allowed to continue weeks later?

I don't suppose you've ever heard of one of the most useful facts of life - never answer a question with a question.................

and its PhiPhiDon to my friends, Mr.PhiPhiDon to you.

In your case, it's just never answer a question. You didn't ask me - and have no answer.

[rubl]

The Army have a much longer history of violence against their own people

Under the assumption that this is still about the Thai army and sticking to the last 10 odd years, the Thai police also seems to have a history of violence against their own people. The 2003 'War on Drugs' comes to mind.

Having said that I'm afraid that Thai people have a history of violence against their own people. Motorcy, pillon rider, beng, business problem solved.

Of course all this only some background info to explain the peaceful 2010 red-shirt protest.

[KireB]

The Army have a much longer history of violence against their own people - that goes back to at least the beginning of the century with the 1901-1902 crackdown on the uprising against taxation with thousands killed and wounded. Its infamous history probably predates that but lets just keep it to this century...........

True, but that does not give a wild card for sponsored revolutionaries (my own family on law got payed yes) to try to demolish and gridlock a city, to kill people and cover the city under a blanket of violence and fear!

[rubl]

Perception? Maybe I need a medium to try to ask some of the non-red-shirts deads how they perceive the situation and those kindly folks who got them wherever they be now?

Don't try to be cute or smug rubl, it doesn't work with me. When the abhisit government had to sell the crackdown on the red shirts and its attendant likeliehood of civilian deaths to the Thai people it helps if you can demonise (and dehumanise) the perceived threat. In this modern age the word that is so often abused for this purpose is "terrorist".

Hence my reference to the misuse of the word "insurgent" - it comes from the latin, to rise up (against) and in this day and age sounds more noble, as if the insurgent is fighting for a cause.

No, if you want to get the public on your side whilst you're killing their brothers and sisters, call them "terrorists".

They were right, abhisit was "good for talking"............................

Cute? Well thank you dear pHIpHIdON, I love you too.

I responded to your

"Well in Thailand a certain person decided to call them terrorists and there is a big difference believe me, especially in perception..........."

Here you explain why you said so.

So, now we have two opinions. Cute, ain't it

Edited September 3, 2012 by rubl

[Thait Spot]

why would the Thai police be doing that when it was a military operation?

Really? I thought the police were still involved despite their reluctance to earn their crust.

If it was a crime zone then it was theirs.

Where do you see the lines of demarkation?

[Thait Spot]

If the Thai Police had been a professional outfit and had sealed the crime scene correctly and retrieved bullets for forensic examination then set about gathering army and red shirt weapons for comparison then maybe we would know for a fact what happened as well as identifying the likely culprit .....

why would the Thai police be doing that when it was a military operation?

Well, to be honest, the militants were gone so the police could have come back. The army is not really setup to do forensic examinations, mostly just check if a suspect is really dead or no longer a threat.

The real question would be why did PM Abhisit feel the need to call in the army way back begin of April 2010? Why did the police with their special trained crowd control units and their deep understanding of how to protect a crime scene, why did the police not do what they were trained for? Maybe we should ask Dept. PM Pol Captain Chalerm for his insight?

Chalerm has it all sewn up right?

The police killed She Daeng

[Thait Spot]

Well in Thailand a certain person decided to call them terrorists and there is a big difference believe me, especially in perception...........

They seem to have the following demands in common:

Change the ruling party.

Terrorise the people.

Install their own form of government.

Majority religion to rule

[GentlemanJim]

Now, of course, this does not mean what many of the protesters have done is also not unlawful, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Also, the wrong of killing unarmed civilians is much greater than firing a slingshot.

A slingshot firing ball bearings (which is what the reds were using) will kill you stone dead from quite a distance. It is a lethal weapon (remember David and Goliath)

But in Paris and the USA the student protestors did not threaten to burn down the city, nor did they threaten to kill soldiers, nor did they set up unauthorised check points and search civilians at gun point, neither did they build barracades from sharpened bamboo poles and invade hospitals. They also did not dash all hope of peaceful solutions by reneging on previously set and agreed to goals and negotiations. They did not fire lethal weapons and throw explosives at the French or US population and military. Apart from all that and a bit more, I guess the situations are almost identical.

so, the only thing missing from your non-answer is "those people shot in 2010 "got what they deserved""

Well it can hardly be classed as a non answer as it was a reply to a post of yours that did not contain a question

And the phrase "those people shot in 2010 "got what they deserved", is not in my post because it was never meant to be nor is it the way I think. The rest of the statement is there because it draws many differences between the reds and what you were implying was a similar situation with students in France and the USA. It is clear that there was no similarity between the examples you gave and the situation in Bangkok. Still never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh! Many many innocents were killed that day, but amazingly, faced with all the overwhelming evidence, you red chaps do not perceive at all that the reds were responsible in any way. Mind blowing really!

[Thait Spot]

Too general and applicable to many armies around the world. I don't want to start an Irish Situation discussion, but was that the army in Northern Ireland ?

Try to stick to the last 10 years, much safer for all

In your attempt to provoke with your reference to the Northern Ireland Conflict, in 1972 alone over 100 soldiers were killed, 500 injured and there were 1300 bombings (bombs, not grenades). Not quite the same is it?

How many armies do you know, and not some ragtag christian fellowship orange order boy soldier outfit, professional armies, that have regularly shot and killed their fellow countrymen since 1900?

Despot regimes excepted - despite some opinions on here, Thailand still runs under the vestiges of tattered democracy.

Let's do history then Donny - how many peaceful protests have caused the death of 5 security personnel and injured many others (April 10th), and still been allowed to continue weeks later?

I don't suppose you've ever heard of one of the most useful facts of life - never answer a question with a question.................

and its PhiPhiDon to my friends, Mr.PhiPhiDon to you.

I don't believe that's a fact.

[phiphidon]

In your case, it's just never answer a question. You didn't ask me - and have no answer.

I think I have quite a history of asking questions and answering them, its usually the nonsense ones I ignore.

[phiphidon]

The Army have a much longer history of violence against their own people

Under the assumption that this is still about the Thai army and sticking to the last 10 odd years, the Thai police also seems to have a history of violence against their own people. The 2003 'War on Drugs' comes to mind.

Having said that I'm afraid that Thai people have a history of violence against their own people. Motorcy, pillon rider, beng, business problem solved.

Of course all this only some background info to explain the peaceful 2010 red-shirt protest.

You're right of course but back to thread that is about abhisit and the red shirt deaths. Now the military are very much important players in that thread so are deserved of a mention or two

the police much less so,

the war on drugs shouldn't even get a look in and as for your driving and business violence mentions, well...................

[Thait Spot]

In your case, it's just never answer a question. You didn't ask me - and have no answer.

I think I have quite a history of asking questions and answering them, its usually the nonsense ones I ignore.

Mine were nonsense?

[rubl]

In your case, it's just never answer a question. You didn't ask me - and have no answer.

I think I have quite a history of asking questions and answering them, its usually the nonsense ones I ignore.

Mine were nonsense?

Must be. I'm puzzled by ppd's 'asking questions and answering them'. One is supposed to wait for others to do the answering. Mind you some here seem to like answering questions not asked.

[GentlemanJim]

Will those of you who persist in referring to the events in 2010 as a peaceful protest please desist from doing so. It was never a peaceful protest. How long would THESE last in any country in the west??

Razor wire and sharpened bamboo poles.....peaceful right! (acknowledgement to Michael Yon photo may be used for non commercial use)

Abhisit was negligent for not sending the army in sooner!

Edited September 3, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[philw]

The Army have a much longer history of violence against their own people

Under the assumption that this is still about the Thai army and sticking to the last 10 odd years, the Thai police also seems to have a history of violence against their own people. The 2003 'War on Drugs' comes to mind.

Having said that I'm afraid that Thai people have a history of violence against their own people. Motorcy, pillon rider, beng, business problem solved.

Of course all this only some background info to explain the peaceful 2010 red-shirt protest.

We live in a violent and tense society.

In the north many of the people killed in the , sadly misnamed , war on drugs, were shot by the army.

W.V.

[rubl]

I'm not sure why our gentleman jim gets upset. I mean all of us had a good time especially on the 19th of May, 2010. ZEN still had their summer campaign "Turn Up the Heat"

[philw]

Will those of you who persist in referring to the events in 2010 as a peaceful protest please desist from doing so. It was never a peaceful protest. How long would THESE last in any country in the west??

Razor wire and sharpened bamboo poles.....peaceful right! (acknowledgement to Michael Yon photo may be used for non commercial use)

Abhisit was negligent for not sending the army in sooner!

Not too dissimilar to Anfield ( on a rainy day-- hard to keep warm ), Toxteth and the poll tax riots.

I suppose you would have had snipers on the roofs of Liverpool, given the chance.

Can't you find more graphic images ?

[rubl]

Not too dissimilar to Anfield ( on a rainy day-- hard to keep warm ), Toxteth and the poll tax riots.

I suppose you would have had snipers on the roofs of Liverpool, given the chance.

Can't you find more graphic images ?

I hope this is not deemed too gruesome

Same soldier hit by grenade scrapnel, not sure left arm will ever be right again. Of course I have to post Jatuporn again as well, for contrast

[philw]

Not too dissimilar to Anfield ( on a rainy day-- hard to keep warm ), Toxteth and the poll tax riots.

I suppose you would have had snipers on the roofs of Liverpool, given the chance.

Can't you find more graphic images ?

I hope this is not deemed too gruesome

Same soldier hit by grenade scrapnel, not sure left arm will ever be right again. Of course I have to post Jatuporn again as well, for contrast

Army grenade perchance ??

Sad picture and horrible event, but who ???............etc.

And your reason for posting the picture is to make what point ??