Former Thai Pm Abhisit In Court Over 'red Shirt' Protest Deaths

[rubl]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

I don't see those blaming the police for not supporting AV doing the same about the army & Somchai. Double standards?

Sorry for late reply, I seem to have missed this. Maybe I got distracted by the Phuket furious masturbators, who knows

Anyway, to answer your question. Lots of posters seem to blame k. Abhisit to have involved the army as that's undemocratic, not done, no cricket, etc., etc. Also then PM Somchai still had full cooperation of the police with it's special trained crowd control forces. Maybe one should wonder if your question indicates a 'double standard' you seem to accuse others of

[philw]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

I guess then it would have been impossible for the govt to have had a plain clothed soldier there recording what you saw on a concealed camera.

I was at Ratchaprasong on numerous occasions and never saw 1 armed black or red shirt mingling with the protesters as was claimed by AV, ST & the army spokesman

As I have said before, it was obvious that a very limited number of the reds had some rudimentary weapons, but as for '500 heavily armed terrorists' that was just one of the many lies used by the government to incriminate the reds, justify their existence and their heavy handed tactics.

How come 500 heavily armed men, in distinctive black clothing, carrying fairly noticeable big guns, in a relatively small area ( 2 sq km ?? ) surrounded by about 30,000 troops,( enough to shoulder to shoulder the perimeter ), an area heavily infiltrated by plain clothes cops and special forces personnel as well as helicopters and hundreds of CCTV cameras, cannot be found, pictured, identified, or even specified in a shooting, never mind arrested and charged with a crime.

Notwithstanding the army and the government of the day have used their best efforts to justify their actions and their actions could be justified if they even came up with , say, 15 blackshirt terrorists.

But they haven't and they can't.

Two years later, despite thousands of witnesses, of dozens of events and inummerable photographs, both military and in the public domain, nothing, zero, zilch, sweet FA.

How can that be, when the army and government of the time will grab anything to justify their actions.

It can't possibly be that the "500" didn't exist or there were only 25 or so and they were not who we are lead to believe they were...........???

Could it ??

[philw]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

I guess then it would have been impossible for the govt to have had a plain clothed soldier there recording what you saw on a concealed camera.

I was at Ratchaprasong on numerous occasions and never saw 1 armed black or red shirt mingling with the protesters as was claimed by AV, ST & the army spokesman

As I have said before, it was obvious that a very limited number of the reds had some rudimentary weapons, but as for '500 heavily armed terrorists' that was just one of the many lies used by the government to incriminate the reds, justify their existence and their heavy handed tactics.

just because you never saw armed groups at ratchaprasong doesn't mean they didn't exist. The men who I saw were all in civilian clothes and looked exactly like your average Thai. The only thing that set them apart was how they moved physically, and how they carried their weapons calmly confidently and with a purpose. These weren't some technical college students with grandads revolver and a Ping pong bomb over excited and full of bravado. They were quiet, confident and deliberate and around 35-45m years old. Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred.

There is a myth of groups of MIB, there were no MIB, those MIB wore the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection

In 1992 some cops wore fatigues and some army wore police uniforms.

Think about it.

It's very Thai.

[rubl]

How come 500 heavily armed men, in distinctive black clothing, carrying fairly noticeable big guns, in a relatively small area ( 2 sq km ?? ) surrounded by about 30,000 troops,( enough to shoulder to shoulder the perimeter ), an area heavily infiltrated by plain clothes cops and special forces personnel as well as helicopters and hundreds of CCTV cameras, cannot be found, pictured, identified, or even specified in a shooting, never mind arrested and charged with a crime.

Notwithstanding the army and the government of the day have used their best efforts to justify their actions and their actions could be justified if they even came up with , say, 15 blackshirt terrorists.

But they haven't and they can't.

Two years later, despite thousands of witnesses, of dozens of events and inummerable photographs, both military and in the public domain, nothing, zero, zilch, sweet FA.

How can that be, when the army and government of the time will grab anything to justify their actions.

It can't possibly be that the "500" didn't exist or there were only 25 or so and they were not who we are lead to believe they were...........???

Could it ??

The army colonel and staff, the lady at BTS Sala Daeng, vanderGrift, some police officers, surely all of them must have run into the grenades fired by peaceful protesters k. Abhisit and k. Suthep clad in black ?

[philw]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

I don't see those blaming the police for not supporting AV doing the same about the army & Somchai. Double standards?

Sorry for late reply, I seem to have missed this. Maybe I got distracted by the Phuket furious masturbators, who knows

Anyway, to answer your question. Lots of posters seem to blame k. Abhisit to have involved the army as that's undemocratic, not done, no cricket, etc., etc. Also then PM Somchai still had full cooperation of the police with it's special trained crowd control forces. Maybe one should wonder if your question indicates a 'double standard' you seem to accuse others of

Hope your hearing isn't impaired by your pleasures in Phuket

[rubl]

In 1992 some cops wore fatigues and some army wore police uniforms.

Think about it.

It's very Thai.

When you're right you're right, phil!

Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm said those MiB were police officers. Who am I to disbelieve ?

[rubl]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

I don't see those blaming the police for not supporting AV doing the same about the army & Somchai. Double standards?

Sorry for late reply, I seem to have missed this. Maybe I got distracted by the Phuket furious masturbators, who knows

Anyway, to answer your question. Lots of posters seem to blame k. Abhisit to have involved the army as that's undemocratic, not done, no cricket, etc., etc. Also then PM Somchai still had full cooperation of the police with it's special trained crowd control forces. Maybe one should wonder if your question indicates a 'double standard' you seem to accuse others of

Hope your hearing isn't impaired by your pleasures in Phuket

Now you're somewhat naughty, young master phil. My hearing is impaired a wee bit, but as result of a live fire accident when I was in a mortar platoon 32 odd years ago. For the record, I have never masturbated been in Phuket

[whybother]

The Black Shirts have the good sense of A) Not getting killed, or Not having their weapons surgically implanted so they could be taken away if they did get killed.

If the government at the time had one, JUST ONE photograph or video clip of an armed black shirt being taken out by the army it would have been of crucial importance to winning the hearts & minds of the people. Given this, and with modern high powered cameras it should have been simple to get such evidence, with such a huge number of "heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters". They haven't got it!

Aren't videos of black shirts shooting at the army enough evidence?

Sent from my HTC phone.

[whybother]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

If you are unaware of the red shirts "attack" on a tv station, then that clearly shows how your red goggles are working.

Of course, besides their attack on the army to get into Thaicom, they also attempted to burn down channel 3.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[rubl]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

If you are unaware of the red shirts "attack" on a tv station, then that clearly shows how your red goggles are working.

Of course, besides their attack on the army to get into Thaicom, they also attempted to burn down channel 3.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Who would believe the Guardian anyway ?

2010-05-19

"Media becomes target in Thailand's ongoing political turmoil

Redshirt anti-government protesters turn their anger on local TV companies and newspapers as well as foreign journalists

...

This afternoon, with the redshirts' protest collapsing, the offices of both the Bangkok Post and the Nation were evacuated after threats from retreating reds.

Protesters also attacked the offices of the state-run Channel 3, setting fire to cars outside and puncturing water pipes that flooded the building.

"Channel 3 needs urgent help from police, soldiers," news anchor Patcharasri Benjamas broadcast on the social networking website Twitter. As the building burned, executives were evacuated by helicopter and police rescued other staff.

..."

http://www.guardian....s-media-attacks

[phiphidon]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

"We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems"

Do we? These 60 plus grenade attacks cannot have been made by peaceful protesters otherwise they would not have been regarded as peaceful, would they? So having got that out of the way what do we have?

We have 60 plus (your figures) grenade attacks by whom? How many people have been arrested and charged with a grenade attack? (apart from Seh Daengs right hand man who is in jail now I understand for those attacks - he certainly wasn't a peaceful protester). How many of them, if you know of any, were "peaceful protesters" or even protesters for that matter?

It looks as if your statement and indeed, post is based on hearsay and supposition and most likely wrong.

The only point in your post I agree with is the fact that there were a lot of grenade attacks by persons unknown which strangely enough would provide an ideal excuse to raise an Emergency Decree which coincidentally absolves certain people of any responsibility for deaths or injuries that follows.

You could say that was convenient.

Convenient, truly so. The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack would agree with you, I'm sure. vanderGrift foolishly running around with the military on the 19th (but surviving) would agree.

Obviously and surely clear for all to see, those red-shirt protesters were really, really peaceful, all of them. Cross my heart and hope to live.

BTW welcome back. I hope you managed to get a nice suntan

I think you know full well where I've been rubl.

I'm not sure what your emotive reference to the "The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack" has to do with the peaceful red shirt protesters. I thought you would have understood by now that the people who were firing grenades around the place were not peaceful people, I mean it's obvious - as is your stance on who you think was responsible for those grenade attacks.

But this is where I have a problem - as far as I am aware no red shirt protester, peaceful or otherwise in your eyes, has been found responsible for the grenade attacks on Sala Daeng or the attack that Vandergrift was caught up in. But,no not you, you guarantee it was the redshirts; ergo all of the red shirts are non peaceful. So there is the problem, when you break your "argument" down to its salient points it's all based on your supposition, not a shred of evidence, just what you've heard on the TV or read in the papers. You happening to use the same station albeit at a completely different time does not comprise an eyewitness account.

[rubl]

Convenient, truly so. The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack would agree with you, I'm sure. vanderGrift foolishly running around with the military on the 19th (but surviving) would agree.

Obviously and surely clear for all to see, those red-shirt protesters were really, really peaceful, all of them. Cross my heart and hope to live.

BTW welcome back. I hope you managed to get a nice suntan

I think you know full well where I've been rubl.

I'm not sure what your emotive reference to the "The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack" has to do with the peaceful red shirt protesters. I thought you would have understood by now that the people who were firing grenades around the place were not peaceful people, I mean it's obvious - as is your stance on who you think was responsible for those grenade attacks.

But this is where I have a problem - as far as I am aware no red shirt protester, peaceful or otherwise in your eyes, has been found responsible for the grenade attacks on Sala Daeng or the attack that Vandergrift was caught up in. But,no not you, you guarantee it was the redshirts; ergo all of the red shirts are non peaceful. So there is the problem, when you break your "argument" down to its salient points it's all based on your supposition, not a shred of evidence, just what you've heard on the TV or read in the papers. You happening to use the same station albeit at a completely different time does not comprise an eyewitness account.

Emotive reference? red-shirts peaceful? No-one knows? So all is well again, isn't it?

I don't think there are many times if at all I have accused red-shirts. Mind you with all and especially some equating Pheu Thai - UDD - red-shirts I may have slipped once or twice

I guarantee nothing, only that I did see the ugliness of the red camp with my very own eyes walking past, talking with some (Thai) people. I saw red-shirts, yellow-shirts, multicolour-shirts, police and army in full uniform (sweating a wee bit). I 'missed' the grenades on BTS Sala Daeng having passed a few hours before. I did not witness atrocities or shooting as I stayed away from violence I as farang should not get myself involved in. I'm not a hero neither a foolish photo-reporter, and never did I ever say I was.

The fact that no one is found responsible yet doesn't mean that obviously it must have been the government and 'probably' k. Abhisit himself. It wasn't k. Thaksin for sure, he was only standing way, way behind his red-shirts, shopping in Paris as you might remember. There are (non-shopped) photo's to prove so.

BTW I do not know where you've been, but I must admit the idea of you having been sent to purgatory for awhile to contemplate your sins seems proper. Nothing personal of course, just putting it in perspective

(PS: where were you at the time, of the 'unrest' that is?)

[scotbeve]

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

Typical BS

• At the Government House,Sondhi Limthongkul, however, stated demonstrations would continue: "I am warning you, the government and police, that you are putting fuel on the fire. Once you arrest me, thousands of people will tear you apart."
  
• Armed PAD forces "Srivichai Warriors" seized a government television broadcaster as well as several government ministries.
  
• the PAD formally renounced non-violence and vowed bloody revenge.
  
• the PAD blockaded Parliament prior to a crucial legislative session, used hijacked public buses to take control of the government's provisional offices
  
• The PAD was defiant. PAD leader Suriyasai Katasila announced that the PAD would fight off police.
  
• Suriyasai also threatened to use human shields if police attempted to disperse the PAD.
  
• the PAD was paying people to join them at the airport, with extra payment being given to parents bringing babies and children.
  
• At one checkpoint, police found 15 home-made guns, an axe and other weapons in a Dharma Army six-wheel truck taking 20 protesters to Suvarnabhumi airport
  
• Another checkpoint found an Uzi submachine gun, homemade guns, ammunition, sling shots, bullet-proof vests and metal rods. The vehicle had the universally recognised Red Cross signs on its exterior to give the impression it was being used for medical emergencies.
  
• another police checkpoint, about 2 kilometers from the airport, was attacked by armed PAD forces in vehicles, causing the police to withdraw.
  
• A plainclothes policewoman at the airport was identified and captured by PAD security forces and forced onto the main PAD stage inside the airport. Angry PAD protesters threw water at her and many tried to hit her.
  
• Police eventually regained control of the NBT building and arrested 80 of the raiders, seizing guns, knives, golf clubs, and drugs. The raiders were charged with causing damage to public property and illegal possession of weapons and drugs.
  
• Journalists at PAD-controlled Government House reported that they were intimidated, pelted with water bottles, and attacked with a metal pipe.
  
• A photographer from the Thai-language newspaper Thai Rath was attacked by PAD security forces after he took photos of them beating a man at Don Muang airport.
  
• A TNN television truck was repeatedly shot at by PAD security forces while lost in PAD-controlled Don Muang airport. Phanumart Jaihork, a TNN relay controller, said his truck came under heavy gunfire even though it carried the logos of the company and TV station on its sides and a microwave transmitter in its bed.
  

No siree Bob... No double standards in this forum. Absolutely not.....

[scotbeve]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itslef is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner.

And the takeover of 2 airports didn't cause havoc, loss of a massive revenue, as well as tourist confidence??? Kettle.... black.... no?

[rubl]

And the takeover of 2 airports didn't cause havoc, loss of a massive revenue, as well as tourist confidence??? Kettle.... black.... no?

I must admit it's not easy to stick to the topic which is

Former Thai Pm Abhisit In Court Over 'red Shirt' Protest Deaths

[rubl]

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

Typical BS

... long list of complaints removed

No siree Bob... No double standards in this forum. Absolutely not.....

You may have missed this

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry5620413

[nurofiend]

Even if what you said were true (it is not) they have little reason to be worried. All of of this business is just an attempt to provide Thaksin with some leverage along the lines of, we forget what happened in 2010, you forget Thaksin's "misdemeanour's"... and we'll all be on our merry way.

So show us your evidence Mr. "It is not"

I second this request.

[nurofiend]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itslef is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner.

oh god, yet another person who makes it out like it was the vietnam war because they were in bangkok at the time... staying inside, watching it on tv.

or am i wrong? were you down in the thick of it all the time? because if you were then you mustn't have been in too much fear, eh.

yes it wasn't a nice time, but don't act like you were dodging bombs and bullets, because you weren't.

[Ricardo]

In 1992 some cops wore fatigues and some army wore police uniforms.

Think about it.

It's very Thai.

When you're right you're right, phil!

Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm said those MiB were police officers. Who am I to disbelieve ?

Having the Deputy Prime Minister know who they were, should make it easy enough for the various investigations to interview them, and appropriate charges laid, in most countries at least.

Or were they making, like the Iranian bombers in Bangkok, 'legitimate political statements', so therefore No-Further-Action-Required ?

As with interviewing former-PM Thaksin about his part in the mess, don't hold your breath, it would only muddy the waters, eh DPM ?

[birdpooguava]

The Black Shirts have the good sense of A) Not getting killed, or Not having their weapons surgically implanted so they could be taken away if they did get killed.

If the government at the time had one, JUST ONE photograph or video clip of an armed black shirt being taken out by the army it would have been of crucial importance to winning the hearts & minds of the people. Given this, and with modern high powered cameras it should have been simple to get such evidence, with such a huge number of "heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters". They haven't got it!

Aren't videos of black shirts shooting at the army enough evidence?

Sent from my HTC phone.

I was not doubting the existence of MIB. I was 1. doubting who they were & 2. doubting that the authorities shot any. Remember we were debating if AV is responsible for ordering the killing of innocents.

[birdpooguava]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

If you are unaware of the red shirts "attack" on a tv station, then that clearly shows how your red goggles are working.

Of course, besides their attack on the army to get into Thaicom, they also attempted to burn down channel 3.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Their "attack" on Thaicom was unarmed, similar to the PAD's recent "attack" on parliament & could you forward me the names of those reds convicted of arson in the Channel 3 case. Thank you.

[jonclark]

just because you never saw armed groups at ratchaprasong doesn't mean they didn't exist. The men who I saw were all in civilian clothes and looked exactly like your average Thai. The only thing that set them apart was how they moved physically, and how they carried their weapons calmly confidently and with a purpose. These weren't some technical college students with grandads revolver and a Ping pong bomb over excited and full of bravado. They were quiet, confident and deliberate and around 35-45m years old. Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred.

There is a myth of groups of MIB, there were no MIB, those MIB wore the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection

If what you say is true then these men were openly visible to the public. I mean YOU saw it. Therefore why didn't the army/ government who had 30,000+ personnel dedicated to the conflict simply have officers in "the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection" They could then have gathered the evidence needed to convict all of these 'terrorists' after the conflict had run its course. The culprits could then have been interrogated to find out their superiors and consequently the links with the "big boss in Dubai".

You comment makes no sense. The army have all along stated that there were armed men in the group so perhaps they did have 'spies' on the ground and saw similar to what i saw, hence their statements about armed groups inflitrating the protesters.

I'm not going to argue with you. I know what i saw. I'm not going to speculate on what the army / police may or may not have seen or how they go about gathering evidence either as neither of us knows!! But for two days after the Bangkok bank was burnt down, at the intersection of Klong Toei and Rama 4. There were small groups of armed men in civilian clothes carrying weapons under blankets towards army lines. This was outside the main protest area.

Why haven't people at the intersection i mentioned come forward to identify these men. Perhaps they don't know them, perhaps if they identify them the community, which was largely supportive of these men on the day, will turn on them. Again, I am not going to speculate as I don't know the answer to that.

You have an eye witness account. You can believe or not believe it. Your choice.

PS - You never answered my first question - Who do you think shot the soldiers?? I think 19 were killed in total - Birdpoo falling from the sky perhaps.

[whybother]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

If you are unaware of the red shirts "attack" on a tv station, then that clearly shows how your red goggles are working.

Of course, besides their attack on the army to get into Thaicom, they also attempted to burn down channel 3.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Their "attack" on Thaicom was unarmed, similar to the PAD's recent "attack" on parliament & could you forward me the names of those reds convicted of arson in the Channel 3 case. Thank you.

What was "PAD's recent 'attack' on parliament"? Are you talking about their protest outside parliament where there was no fighting with police and no injuries?

The red shirts attacked and broke through riot squads, injuring army personnel and taking control of army equipment.

[Buchholz]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

If you are unaware of the red shirts "attack" on a tv station, then that clearly shows how your red goggles are working.

Of course, besides their attack on the army to get into Thaicom, they also attempted to burn down channel 3.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Their "attack" on Thaicom was unarmed

Red Shirts and Thaicom:

Today the atmosphere had changed, the Reds were ready for action and they were happy to show me big bolt cutters that they had ready to cut their way through the barbed wire.

Tension continued to pile on and by mid afternoon it was ready to blow. Sure enough it did, as the rhetoric hit fever pitch, suddenly a wave of hard clods of dry earth, water bottles, sticks and other handy projectiles came flying through the air at the army who raised their shields to combat the raining missiles. The protestors made short work of the barbed wire at the main gate, and, despite the momentary stream of a water cannon, they were through, surging into the outer section of the compound.

Hugely outnumbered the army fell back fast, retreating under a curtain of falling objects into the main compound in front of the building.

A short, sharp encounter took place across the tarmac approach to the station, tear gas was thrown by both sides along with a handful of Molotov cocktails from the Reds

A captured water truck was commandeered by the Reds and driven towards the army ranks with a brick on the accelerator

[birdpooguava]

What was "PAD's recent 'attack' on parliament"? Are you talking about their protest outside parliament where there was no fighting with police and no injuries?

The red shirts attacked and broke through riot squads, injuring army personnel and taking control of army equipment.

June 1, 2012

[KireB]

June 1, 2012

Yes thjs is much worse than the attack on Thaicom or the Asian Summit. You are right, an expensive photo camera is a dangerous weapon!.

[phiphidon]

just because you never saw armed groups at ratchaprasong doesn't mean they didn't exist. The men who I saw were all in civilian clothes and looked exactly like your average Thai. The only thing that set them apart was how they moved physically, and how they carried their weapons calmly confidently and with a purpose. These weren't some technical college students with grandads revolver and a Ping pong bomb over excited and full of bravado. They were quiet, confident and deliberate and around 35-45m years old. Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred.

There is a myth of groups of MIB, there were no MIB, those MIB wore the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection

If what you say is true then these men were openly visible to the public. I mean YOU saw it. Therefore why didn't the army/ government who had 30,000+ personnel dedicated to the conflict simply have officers in "the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection" They could then have gathered the evidence needed to convict all of these 'terrorists' after the conflict had run its course. The culprits could then have been interrogated to find out their superiors and consequently the links with the "big boss in Dubai".

You comment makes no sense. The army have all along stated that there were armed men in the group so perhaps they did have 'spies' on the ground and saw similar to what i saw, hence their statements about armed groups inflitrating the protesters.

I'm not going to argue with you. I know what i saw. I'm not going to speculate on what the army / police may or may not have seen or how they go about gathering evidence either as neither of us knows!! But for two days after the Bangkok bank was burnt down, at the intersection of Klong Toei and Rama 4. There were small groups of armed men in civilian clothes carrying weapons under blankets towards army lines. This was outside the main protest area.

Why haven't people at the intersection i mentioned come forward to identify these men. Perhaps they don't know them, perhaps if they identify them the community, which was largely supportive of these men on the day, will turn on them. Again, I am not going to speculate as I don't know the answer to that.

You have an eye witness account. You can believe or not believe it. Your choice.

PS - You never answered my first question - Who do you think shot the soldiers?? I think 19 were killed in total - Birdpoo falling from the sky perhaps.

"I think 19 were killed in total"

Not including Sae Daeng, 10 security force personnel were killed, one of those, blue on blue, at an army checkpoint by army personnel.

[gabruce]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itslef is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner.

I would definitely agree that living in Bangkok during the red occupation left me concluding that the government waited too long, the reds were violent, and that certainly all of the deaths were regrettable. Personally I was greatly relieved when it was all over. Tire fires at the intersections, at the end burning buildings, no more travelling convoys. I am thankful that I didn't see any killings. My opinion is that the conspiracy theorists are wrong and that it wasn't the government pretending to be red shirts that caused the problems. It certainly all seemed real at the time. Businesses having to close because of the occupation were real too.

[phiphidon]

Red Shirts and Thaicom:

Today the atmosphere had changed, the Reds were ready for action and they were happy to show me big bolt cutters that they had ready to cut their way through the barbed wire.

Tension continued to pile on and by mid afternoon it was ready to blow. Sure enough it did, as the rhetoric hit fever pitch, suddenly a wave of hard clods of dry earth, water bottles, sticks and other handy projectiles came flying through the air at the army who raised their shields to combat the raining missiles. The protestors made short work of the barbed wire at the main gate, and, despite the momentary stream of a water cannon, they were through, surging into the outer section of the compound.

Hugely outnumbered the army fell back fast, retreating under a curtain of falling objects into the main compound in front of the building.

A short, sharp encounter took place across the tarmac approach to the station, tear gas was thrown by both sides along with a handful of Molotov cocktails from the Reds

A captured water truck was commandeered by the Reds and driven towards the army ranks with a brick on the accelerator

No attribution, buchholz?

[AleG]

So the story is that the "Black Shirts" (in quotes because some, errrmm, simple minded people seem to assume that it means they always, compulsory had to wear full black) allegiance is unknown, hinting at being agent provocateurs from the government.

So let's count who would be in that conspiracy, of course Abhisit and Suthep, positively chomping at the bit to get people killed (since that would be so beneficial to them), then the army, obviously. Now here sacrifices needed be done so the Army, as part of the plan kills a number of their own, including such men of little importance as the commander of the Queens Guards, to really, really make it look like it's not them doing the killing. Also in the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirt leaders, calling this mysterious men their "guardian angels" and telling the Red Shirts how they would come to their protection to fight against the Army, let's not forget Kattiya prancing about with a grenade pin festooned hat going wink-wink-nudge-nudge about his "Ronin Warriors". Also into the conspiracy must had been the Red Shirts themselves, pretending the heavily armed men milling around them were part of the group for the time being, so later they could claim that it was the Army all along.

My head hurts, what we need here is some meddling kids I think.