Former Thai Pm Abhisit In Court Over 'red Shirt' Protest Deaths

[webfact]

Ex-Thai PM in court over 'Red Shirt' protest deaths

BANGKOK, Aug 30, 2012 (AFP) - Former Thai prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva testified in court on Thursday for the first time in connection with dozens of protest deaths in 2010, saying the authorities had tried to avoid loss of life.

More than 90 people, mostly civilians, were killed and nearly 1,900 were wounded in street clashes and a military crackdown on the opposition rallies, which drew about 100,000 "Red Shirt" demonstrators at their peak.

Abhisit, who is now opposition leader, told an inquest at the Bangkok Criminal Court into the death of a taxi driver during the political violence that the authorities were attempting to reclaim areas occupied by demonstrators.

"I repeated to officials that all actions must avoid any losses (of life)," he said, adding that a series of grenade attacks were caused by militants armed with M79 launchers.

Abhisit and his former deputy Suthep Thaugsuban on Monday attended the Justice Ministry's Department of Special Investigation for several hours of questioning about the events.

Observers believe the pair -- who were already questioned by the police as witnesses in December 2011 -- could face prosecution.

Thailand now has a new government allied to the Red Shirts' hero, fugitive former leader Thaksin Shinawatra, whose sister Yingluck is prime minister.

Thaksin was toppled by royalist generals in a 2006 coup that unleashed years of street protests by the pro-Thaksin Red Shirts and the rival Yellow Shirts, who claim allegiance to the throne.

Abhisit's government invoked emergency rule to deal with the Red Shirt rallies in early 2010, giving broad powers to the military, which deployed thousands of troops in the capital.

New York-based Human Rights Watch has accused the army of using "excessive and unnecessary lethal force" in the crackdown.

Suthep, who headed the government centre set up to deal with the Red Shirt protests, told the same court that he had not received any reports of deaths caused by the authorities.

A ruling is expected on September 17 in the case of the taxi driver, the first in a series of inquests to establish the circumstances of the protest deaths.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2012-08-30

[Noistar]

In this context, how is 'civilian' defined?

Is a civilian a non-combatant or a person who is not part of a Government's armed forces?

Were all the civilian casualties, innocent of not using weapons?

If the army were defending themselves and innocent civilians, the scenario is different to that eluded to in the article

Nothing defends the loss of life. The circumstances need to be fully investigated as it appears they now are. But, it's not only Abhisit 'in the chair', as it were. If you want the truth, you might not like it!

I don't know the answers, perhaps someone could provide some educated input.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Noistar

[birdpooguava]

In this context, how is 'civilian' defined?

Is a civilian a non-combatant or a person who is not part of a Government's armed forces?

Were all the civilian casualties, innocent of not using weapons?

I don't know the answers, perhaps someone could provide some educated input.

There is not a single piece of evidence showing that an armed protester was killed. All photo and video evidence shows unarmed protesters that were shot. Even though ST & AV claimed there were "500 heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters", not one was filmed shot dead or even injured by the authorities. So, there were a lot of people shot dead including nurses, journalists and innocent bystanders, but not one of the people, who the government said were the reason for the crackdown, were anywhere to be found.

AV & ST have good reason to be worried.

[rixalex]

In this context, how is 'civilian' defined?

Is a civilian a non-combatant or a person who is not part of a Government's armed forces?

Were all the civilian casualties, innocent of not using weapons?

I don't know the answers, perhaps someone could provide some educated input.

There is not a single piece of evidence showing that an armed protester was killed. All photo and video evidence shows unarmed protesters that were shot. Even though ST & AV claimed there were "500 heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters", not one was filmed shot dead or even injured by the authorities. So, there were a lot of people shot dead including nurses, journalists and innocent bystanders, but not one of the people, who the government said were the reason for the crackdown, were anywhere to be found.

AV & ST have good reason to be worried.

Even if what you said were true (it is not) they have little reason to be worried. All of of this business is just an attempt to provide Thaksin with some leverage along the lines of, we forget what happened in 2010, you forget Thaksin's "misdemeanour's"... and we'll all be on our merry way.

[rubl]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

[birdpooguava]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

I don't see those blaming the police for not supporting AV doing the same about the army & Somchai. Double standards?

[birdpooguava]

Even if what you said were true (it is not) they have little reason to be worried. All of of this business is just an attempt to provide Thaksin with some leverage along the lines of, we forget what happened in 2010, you forget Thaksin's "misdemeanour's"... and we'll all be on our merry way.

So show us your evidence Mr. "It is not"

[AleG]

In this context, how is 'civilian' defined?

Is a civilian a non-combatant or a person who is not part of a Government's armed forces?

Were all the civilian casualties, innocent of not using weapons?

I don't know the answers, perhaps someone could provide some educated input.

There is not a single piece of evidence showing that an armed protester was killed. All photo and video evidence shows unarmed protesters that were shot. Even though ST & AV claimed there were "500 heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters", not one was filmed shot dead or even injured by the authorities. So, there were a lot of people shot dead including nurses, journalists and innocent bystanders, but not one of the people, who the government said were the reason for the crackdown, were anywhere to be found.

AV & ST have good reason to be worried.

The Black Shirts have the good sense of A) Not getting killed, or Not having their weapons surgically implanted so they could be taken away if they did get killed.

[birdpooguava]

The Black Shirts have the good sense of A) Not getting killed, or Not having their weapons surgically implanted so they could be taken away if they did get killed.

If the government at the time had one, JUST ONE photograph or video clip of an armed black shirt being taken out by the army it would have been of crucial importance to winning the hearts & minds of the people. Given this, and with modern high powered cameras it should have been simple to get such evidence, with such a huge number of "heavily armed black-shirted terrorists mingling among the protesters". They haven't got it!

[phiphidon]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

"We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems"

Do we? These 60 plus grenade attacks cannot have been made by peaceful protesters otherwise they would not have been regarded as peaceful, would they? So having got that out of the way what do we have?

We have 60 plus (your figures) grenade attacks by whom? How many people have been arrested and charged with a grenade attack? (apart from Seh Daengs right hand man who is in jail now I understand for those attacks - he certainly wasn't a peaceful protester). How many of them, if you know of any, were "peaceful protesters" or even protesters for that matter?

It looks as if your statement and indeed, post is based on hearsay and supposition and most likely wrong.

The only point in your post I agree with is the fact that there were a lot of grenade attacks by persons unknown which strangely enough would provide an ideal excuse to raise an Emergency Decree which coincidentally absolves certain people of any responsibility for deaths or injuries that follows.

You could say that was convenient.

Edited August 30, 2012 by phiphidon

[KireB]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

I don't see those blaming the police for not supporting AV doing the same about the army & Somchai. Double standards?

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

[KireB]

"We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems"

Do we? These 60 plus grenade attacks cannot have been made by peaceful protesters otherwise they would not have been regarded as peaceful, would they? So having got that out of the way what do we have?

I think he means to say that the red shirts were far from being peaceful. They, as a group, were scum, aggressive, vulgar, violent and deadly.

[birdpooguava]

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

Typical BS

• At the Government House,Sondhi Limthongkul, however, stated demonstrations would continue: "I am warning you, the government and police, that you are putting fuel on the fire. Once you arrest me, thousands of people will tear you apart."
  
• Armed PAD forces "Srivichai Warriors" seized a government television broadcaster as well as several government ministries.
  
• the PAD formally renounced non-violence and vowed bloody revenge.
  
• the PAD blockaded Parliament prior to a crucial legislative session, used hijacked public buses to take control of the government's provisional offices
  
• The PAD was defiant. PAD leader Suriyasai Katasila announced that the PAD would fight off police.
  
• Suriyasai also threatened to use human shields if police attempted to disperse the PAD.
  
• the PAD was paying people to join them at the airport, with extra payment being given to parents bringing babies and children.
  
• At one checkpoint, police found 15 home-made guns, an axe and other weapons in a Dharma Army six-wheel truck taking 20 protesters to Suvarnabhumi airport
  
• Another checkpoint found an Uzi submachine gun, homemade guns, ammunition, sling shots, bullet-proof vests and metal rods. The vehicle had the universally recognised Red Cross signs on its exterior to give the impression it was being used for medical emergencies.
  
• another police checkpoint, about 2 kilometers from the airport, was attacked by armed PAD forces in vehicles, causing the police to withdraw.
  
• A plainclothes policewoman at the airport was identified and captured by PAD security forces and forced onto the main PAD stage inside the airport. Angry PAD protesters threw water at her and many tried to hit her.
  
• Police eventually regained control of the NBT building and arrested 80 of the raiders, seizing guns, knives, golf clubs, and drugs. The raiders were charged with causing damage to public property and illegal possession of weapons and drugs.
  
• Journalists at PAD-controlled Government House reported that they were intimidated, pelted with water bottles, and attacked with a metal pipe.
  
• A photographer from the Thai-language newspaper Thai Rath was attacked by PAD security forces after he took photos of them beating a man at Don Muang airport.
  
• A TNN television truck was repeatedly shot at by PAD security forces while lost in PAD-controlled Don Muang airport. Phanumart Jaihork, a TNN relay controller, said his truck came under heavy gunfire even though it carried the logos of the company and TV station on its sides and a microwave transmitter in its bed.
  

[animatic]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

I don't see those blaming the police for not supporting AV doing the same about the army & Somchai. Double standards?

Except Somchai had presided over the attack on PAD at Parliament and the excessive use of force.

And at this point Abhisit was not forced into any physical response yet.

So the police who have clearly sided with Police Officer Retired Thaksin

clearly were moving for one side and not the other

in both cases forcing the Army to make moves it did NOT want to make.

[birdpooguava]

Except Somchai had presided over the attack on PAD at Parliament and the excessive use of force.

And at this point Abhisit was not forced into any physical response yet.

So the police who have clearly sided with Police Officer Retired Thaksin

clearly were moving for one side and not the other

in both cases forcing the Army to make moves it did NOT want to make.

A faulty tear gas cannister does not equal excessive use of force, it equals an unfortunate incident. Somchai did not order snipers to use live ammunition against the yellow protesters or their military wing, the heavily armed Srivichai warriors

[jonclark]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

Edited August 30, 2012 by jonclark

[birdpooguava]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

I guess then it would have been impossible for the govt to have had a plain clothed soldier there recording what you saw on a concealed camera.

I was at Ratchaprasong on numerous occasions and never saw 1 armed black or red shirt mingling with the protesters as was claimed by AV, ST & the army spokesman

As I have said before, it was obvious that a very limited number of the reds had some rudimentary weapons, but as for '500 heavily armed terrorists' that was just one of the many lies used by the government to incriminate the reds, justify their existence and their heavy handed tactics.

[KireB]

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

Typical BS

• At the Government House,Sondhi Limthongkul, however, stated demonstrations would continue: "I am warning you, the government and police, that you are putting fuel on the fire. Once you arrest me, thousands of people will tear you apart."
  
• Armed PAD forces "Srivichai Warriors" seized a government television broadcaster as well as several government ministries.
  
• the PAD formally renounced non-violence and vowed bloody revenge.
  
• the PAD blockaded Parliament prior to a crucial legislative session, used hijacked public buses to take control of the government's provisional offices
  
• The PAD was defiant. PAD leader Suriyasai Katasila announced that the PAD would fight off police.
  
• Suriyasai also threatened to use human shields if police attempted to disperse the PAD.
  
• the PAD was paying people to join them at the airport, with extra payment being given to parents bringing babies and children.
  
• At one checkpoint, police found 15 home-made guns, an axe and other weapons in a Dharma Army six-wheel truck taking 20 protesters to Suvarnabhumi airport
  
• Another checkpoint found an Uzi submachine gun, homemade guns, ammunition, sling shots, bullet-proof vests and metal rods. The vehicle had the universally recognised Red Cross signs on its exterior to give the impression it was being used for medical emergencies.
  
• another police checkpoint, about 2 kilometers from the airport, was attacked by armed PAD forces in vehicles, causing the police to withdraw.
  
• A plainclothes policewoman at the airport was identified and captured by PAD security forces and forced onto the main PAD stage inside the airport. Angry PAD protesters threw water at her and many tried to hit her.
  
• Police eventually regained control of the NBT building and arrested 80 of the raiders, seizing guns, knives, golf clubs, and drugs. The raiders were charged with causing damage to public property and illegal possession of weapons and drugs.
  
• Journalists at PAD-controlled Government House reported that they were intimidated, pelted with water bottles, and attacked with a metal pipe.
  
• A photographer from the Thai-language newspaper Thai Rath was attacked by PAD security forces after he took photos of them beating a man at Don Muang airport.
  
• A TNN television truck was repeatedly shot at by PAD security forces while lost in PAD-controlled Don Muang airport. Phanumart Jaihork, a TNN relay controller, said his truck came under heavy gunfire even though it carried the logos of the company and TV station on its sides and a microwave transmitter in its bed.
  

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

[birdpooguava]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

[jonclark]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

I guess then it would have been impossible for the govt to have had a plain clothed soldier there recording what you saw on a concealed camera.

I was at Ratchaprasong on numerous occasions and never saw 1 armed black or red shirt mingling with the protesters as was claimed by AV, ST & the army spokesman

As I have said before, it was obvious that a very limited number of the reds had some rudimentary weapons, but as for '500 heavily armed terrorists' that was just one of the many lies used by the government to incriminate the reds, justify their existence and their heavy handed tactics.

just because you never saw armed groups at ratchaprasong doesn't mean they didn't exist. The men who I saw were all in civilian clothes and looked exactly like your average Thai. The only thing that set them apart was how they moved physically, and how they carried their weapons calmly confidently and with a purpose. These weren't some technical college students with grandads revolver and a Ping pong bomb over excited and full of bravado. They were quiet, confident and deliberate and around 35-45m years old. Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred.

There is a myth of groups of MIB, there were no MIB, those MIB wore the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection

Edited August 30, 2012 by jonclark

[moe666]

PTP will not be in power forever and I believe there is no time limit on terriost charges Big T may find himself in for a questioning at sometime in the future about the money trail and his speeches to red shirts during this sad period of time for Thais

Edited August 30, 2012 by moe666

[thaicbr]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

You need weapons to "attack " some one or something ... really?

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[gemini81]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itslef is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner.

[gemini81]

Wow you nicely summarized the Wikipedia page! Good one!

So you deny the facts that the reds were violent, threw grenades, attacked and killed army personnel, had men in black among them, drove lpg tankers in the streets of Bangkok, attacked hospitals, tv stations, army barracks and so? You call that BS?

Doubt my sources? Where are yours?

It is unknown who the MIB were. Maybe you can use your impeccable sources to enlighten us. The reds actually moved the tanker back to safety (2010). They entered the hospital after many witnesses had seen a sniper unit on the top floor. I am unaware of an "attack" on TV stations or the army barracks, as there were no reports of weapons used in either of those.

According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either not in thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated for months on end while life, work and the economy suffer for some uneducated bums to support and want money from thaksin

. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through. Myself, I had to escape the fire exchanged around channel 3, mainly from red shirt motorcyclists, but you wouldn't know as you didn't experience anything real beyond your keyboard nor videos.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itself is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner day in day out on here.

[birdpooguava]

[According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itslef is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner.

Silly remarks = According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is

beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded.

LOL

[gemini81]

So Bird Poo - Who shot the soldiers who died -other soldiers, perhaps while your at it you'll say the protesters were shooting themselves.

I spent 2 days at the Intersection of Rama 4 and Klong Toei market and during my time there saw groups of armed men (in the region of 4-6 per group, I clearly saw the wooden end of a firearm most likely a rifle of sorts. The gums were hidden under blankets as they moved through the crowd making identification difficult), These men moved forward towards the military lines in the direction of Lumpini and Silom., before disappearing into a small soi and the left hand side of rama 4. Men on the bridges over the intersection where looking down rama 4 road from the walkways with binoculars and coordinating with radios. From the direction of lumpini and silom explosions and gunfire could be heard at frequent intervals. This occurred about two days after the Bangkok bank on Rama 4 was burnt down. There are probably very few photos of these incidents as on 1 single occasion i saw a Thai man take some photos of these events with a small compact digital camera. The camera was swiftly taken away and thrown from the overpass onto Rama 4 and the man told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Those who were there and saw the fight know that groups of protestors, were armed and up for it, and they showed no regard for the safety of those innocents caught up in the chaos. Furthermore remember this as well - Guns are very easy to come by and Thais have no compunction in using them, as the multiple weekly shootings in Thai language press highlight.

I guess then it would have been impossible for the govt to have had a plain clothed soldier there recording what you saw on a concealed camera.

I was at Ratchaprasong on numerous occasions and never saw 1 armed black or red shirt mingling with the protesters as was claimed by AV, ST & the army spokesman

As I have said before, it was obvious that a very limited number of the reds had some rudimentary weapons, but as for '500 heavily armed terrorists' that was just one of the many lies used by the government to incriminate the reds, justify their existence and their heavy handed tactics.

A guy who watches youtube after the fact! They had tons of weapons stolen and smuggled...if you're a keyboard warrior then research the news clippings for crying outloud! You were in no way around ratchaprasong...no way...and we will remember your far fetched stories too! We're onto you like CCTV on seh daeng's "men in black"

[gemini81]

[According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded. They were intolerable and caused us fear, tons of income loss, and just the ludicrous situation that this would be tolerated. Abhisit and the army tolerated this much too long. I can see you weren't here to endure the hardships or you would be singing a different tune. I strongly recommend getting a hobby or life than come on here and deny the facts that occured that those of us in BKK witnessed and suffered through.

If the black shirts are a mystery to you, than the events that occured and the system itslef is a mystery to you. You ought to rest your case and do something constructive instead of paint yourself into a corner.

Silly remarks = According to your silly remarks along with your thaivisa membership start date, it is

beyond a doubt that you were either notin thailand nor in bangkok, or both, when these events unfolded.

LOL

Sorry the truth hurt and you had no rebuttal, but maybe your red shirt g/f's family will approve of you while you all await some stolen cash from thaksin and his latest cowardly excuse for the delay of funds. looks like being in dubai/monte' has some set backs, as there is no budget from which to extort money from to help the chinese dynasty family...darn...

[birdpooguava]

just because you never saw armed groups at ratchaprasong doesn't mean they didn't exist. The men who I saw were all in civilian clothes and looked exactly like your average Thai. The only thing that set them apart was how they moved physically, and how they carried their weapons calmly confidently and with a purpose. These weren't some technical college students with grandads revolver and a Ping pong bomb over excited and full of bravado. They were quiet, confident and deliberate and around 35-45m years old. Please remember the events i recounted took place outside the protest area which is where most of the violence and deaths occurred.

There is a myth of groups of MIB, there were no MIB, those MIB wore the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection

If what you say is true then these men were openly visible to the public. I mean YOU saw it. Therefore why didn't the army/ government who had 30,000+ personnel dedicated to the conflict simply have officers in "the same clothes as you, I or your average person would wear and would be impossible to distinguish. Makes perfect sense if you think about it - Blend in avoid detection" They could then have gathered the evidence needed to convict all of these 'terrorists' after the conflict had run its course. The culprits could then have been interrogated to find out their superiors and consequently the links with the "big boss in Dubai".

[rubl]

History as we like to remember it seems less related with actual truth than with what we think or just profess to remember. Some posters have 'seen it' with their own eyes, on a video clip that is, just as factual as reading about it on TV.

We've seen lots of bodies AFTER having been shot and/or dragged out of hospitals to show the world. We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems. Now if only the police with it's special crowd control forces and training had done their job, PM Abhisit wouldn't have needed to involve the army. Mind you, after the first dozen grenades the police would probably and justifiably so have asked the army to help a bit.

"We have 60+ grenade attacks by peaceful protesters who felt a need to defend themselves, having armed themselves and practised even before the 10th of April. Lots of reasons for a crackdown it seems"

Do we? These 60 plus grenade attacks cannot have been made by peaceful protesters otherwise they would not have been regarded as peaceful, would they? So having got that out of the way what do we have?

We have 60 plus (your figures) grenade attacks by whom? How many people have been arrested and charged with a grenade attack? (apart from Seh Daengs right hand man who is in jail now I understand for those attacks - he certainly wasn't a peaceful protester). How many of them, if you know of any, were "peaceful protesters" or even protesters for that matter?

It looks as if your statement and indeed, post is based on hearsay and supposition and most likely wrong.

The only point in your post I agree with is the fact that there were a lot of grenade attacks by persons unknown which strangely enough would provide an ideal excuse to raise an Emergency Decree which coincidentally absolves certain people of any responsibility for deaths or injuries that follows.

You could say that was convenient.

Convenient, truly so. The lady dying on the BTS Sala Daeng platform after a misfired grenade attack would agree with you, I'm sure. vanderGrift foolishly running around with the military on the 19th (but surviving) would agree.

Obviously and surely clear for all to see, those red-shirt protesters were really, really peaceful, all of them. Cross my heart and hope to live.

BTW welcome back. I hope you managed to get a nice suntan

[rubl]

During Somchai's tenure it was the demonstrators, the Yellows, who were on the receiving end of the daily grenade attacks. During the yellow protests there were no 'men in black', nor were the police or army being slaughtered. Also, there were no incidents of body snatching, lpg tankers in residential areas, death threats to the PM, leaders asking their followers to bring a million bottles of gasoline to Bangkok, attacks on radio stations and hospitals, and go on and on..........

Typical BS

...

Long list of complaints removed

Some for sure correct, some maybe not, but anyway, to justify violence because 'the others did so too' may sound democratic, but can hardly be called helpful.

So back to the OP, peaceful protesters seem to have been slightly less peaceful. To say those killed asked for it goes too far, but staying around didn't help them either