Child Abandonment..........a Tragic Tale

[theblether]

I've just heard that a young girl that my girlfriend looks after when she is off work has been effectively abandoned by her Canadian fathers family in Thailand. Her father is seriously ill ( stroke ) and has no chance of recovery, after spending a considerable time under the full time care of his Thai wife the Canadian family arrived and took him back to Canada, leaving no provision for his biological daughter.

I have no difficulty in believing that the Canadian family believe they were working in the best interest of their father, ( the Canadian family are adults, the gentleman concerned is their father ), it may well be the best decision for him. However I find it extraordinarily callous of them to leave no provision for his daughter, and their half sister.

I cannot believe that this is what their father wanted, he had moved to Thailand to bring his daughter up before the stroke hit him. This is a tragic tale on many counts, it's tragic for the Canadian family to see what has become of their father, it's tragic for the gentleman concerned as his dreams of a new life have been crushed, tragic for his wife as her life has come crumbling down, and most of all tragic for this innocent little girl.

I can only hope that the penny drops with the Canadian family, and that they look over their shoulder and see that their flesh and blood has been abandoned.......and do the right thing.

What's going on here? do they consider this little girl to be a second class citizen? A mere folly on the part of their father? A six year old girl has lost her Dad, and the future he had planned for her........tragic.

It makes me wonder how many other children of farang parents are being abandoned every year in Thailand? For that matter, how many children are being abandoned in their home countries as their father's ( and mothers rarely I suppose ) disappear into Thailand and play happy families with other people's kids and leave not a thought or provision for their own.

Children will always be the losers from marriage breakdowns but kids must be shown love even from afar or it will come back to haunt you for the rest of your life. If that means self sacrifice so be it......kids don't cost a penny, they are an investment that repays all of your life.

I know this gentleman ( and yes I have met him ) and I know there is no way he would have left his child in the lurch, illness has begotten him......but for the able bodied, child abandonment is the act of the psychotic, it's the lowest of the low.

Maybe you can't live with them.........but don't abandon your kids, if you do regret will follow you all of your life, unless of course you're an ignorant psychotic scumbag.

You will reap what you sow.

As usual,

Just saying.

[cdnvic]

She a competitor for the inheritence of a seriously ill man. Sadly, that probably weighs heaviest on their minds right now.

[bkkjames]

sad story there mate. I would like to hear the other side of it though before coming to a conclusion.

[smokie36]

sad story there mate. I would like to hear the other side of it though before coming to a conclusion.

I think the real sadness is there shouldn't be two sides to a story where kids are concerned.

In an ideal world etc...

[bkkjames]

sad story there mate. I would like to hear the other side of it though before coming to a conclusion.

I think the real sadness is there shouldn't be two sides to a story where kids are concerned.

In an ideal world etc...

I would like to hear more of it Smokes, a bold title that surely is deserved of this fact no?

Also, I wonder if the term Scottish Family would have been repeated 4 times throughout the story if he was a Scot? Irrelevant his nationality is unless one is trying to point this out for a reason???

Anyways, I hope the OP can provide more info when he gets it.

(sorry if I am a bit off with my tone, I will go get another coffee and see if that makes it different)

[theblether]

@cdnvic and bkkjames

I do actually know a fair bit of both sides of the story.......in as far as it goes.

The gentleman concerned took the stroke about 5 years ago, his daughter was just a baby when it happened. His wife looked after him every day but in my opinion was a bit limited in what she could achieve. I came to the story quite late in the day and in as much as the gentleman had a seriously debilitating stroke, I think more could have been done to aid some degree of rehabilitation.

His wife spent all of her time looking after him, and people who are familiar with dealing with persons with serious disabilities will realize how much work it takes. To give you an idea of how devoted she is was ( is ) when the earthquake struck in CM last year people fled the building they lived in in fear. His wife was standing outside and she ran into the building to be with her husband. When asked later why she ran in she replied,

" If my husband was to die today, I will die beside him ".

The Canadian family have every right to act in what they perceive as being in the best interest of their father, I don't have a problem with them taking him back to Canada as I do believe the level of care required was exhausting his wife, who after all still has a young daughter to bring up. The care provided in Canada may well be better, possibly far better.

I'm seriously unhappy at the child being abandoned though.

I'll need to have a good think about this.

Edited August 30, 2012 by theblether

[cdnvic]

It's not as if the family is being identified here so let's just treat it like a generic example and go from there.

[theblether]

I will not identify the family.......I used the term Canadian so as to identify the gentleman's country of origin, to identify the actors in this matter, and possibly in the hope that we have Canadian citizens here that may be able to throw some light on the law in this matter.

I have made it clear that I can understand the decision to return the gentleman to Canada, and I do believe that decision was taken in good faith. I am seriously irritated about the abandonment aspect though.

[MAJIC]

A very sad story Blether,even though the title of your Topic may not be quite be correct,considering the father would not have wanted to be of ill health and would seem not to have seen his Daughter in this plight.

However, I am sure like many members here,I would be prepared to donate to this young ladies well being,if only someone had the knowledge to set up a fund for her??? any ideas? which I am sure there are many things to consider.

[theblether]

A very sad story Blether,even though the title of your Topic may not be quite be correct,considering the father would not have wanted to be of ill health and would seem not to have seen his Daughter in this plight.

However, I am sure like many members here,I would be prepared to donate to this young ladies well being,if only someone had the knowledge to set up a fund for her??? any ideas? which I am sure there are many things to consider.

That's a very kind offer MAJIC.......the chances are that I will fund this young lady from my own pocket. I have known her and her mother for three years and my girlfriend regards her as a sister, she is very very close to her.

Amusingly the wee girl regards my girlfriend as her "mother" and she calls her own mother "Yai".....much to the chagrin of her own mother who is in her early forties.

I have a few issues I need to consider, and this is off my own back, I haven't been asked..........If I decide to fund the child I'll need to be discrete about it, I'll funnel the money through my girlfriend as another farang being on the scene may give the Canadian family and easy out.

I'll need some input from our Canadian members as to the law in this matter, at the end of the day both a wife and daughter have been abandoned, and I will need to decide if I want to take on the lifetime commitment to this little girl irrespective of how my relationship works out with my gf. Hence I said I'll need to have a good think about this.

Right now I'm minded to do it........my youngest daughter is now 17 and I'm funding her through college......I've been a Dad for 26 years and I'm used to the funding demands of parenthood. I don't intend to be a step father type figure to this little girl that cannot be my role, however I could be an "angel ".

I'll need time for this to settle into my head I think.

Edited August 30, 2012 by theblether

[theblether]

She a competitor for the inheritence of a seriously ill man. Sadly, that probably weighs heaviest on their minds right now.

A valid point, however I think the Thai wife would be delighted to know that she can get some contribution towards the upkeep of her daughter every month, and possibly to receive some clarity as to her pension rights if her husband passes away.

[MAJIC]

A very sad story Blether,even though the title of your Topic may not be quite be correct,considering the father would not have wanted to be of ill health and would seem not to have seen his Daughter in this plight.

However, I am sure like many members here,I would be prepared to donate to this young ladies well being,if only someone had the knowledge to set up a fund for her??? any ideas? which I am sure there are many things to consider.

That's a very kind offer MAJIC.......the chances are that I will fund this young lady from my own pocket. I have known her and her mother for three years and my girlfriend regards her as a sister, she is very very close to her.

Amusingly the wee girl regards my girlfriend as her "mother" and she calls her own mother "Yai".....much to the chagrin of her own mother who is in her early forties.

I have a few issues I need to consider, and this is off my own back, I haven't been asked..........If I decide to fund the child I'll need to be discrete about it, I'll funnel the money through my girlfriend as another farang being on the scene may give the Canadian family and easy out.

I'll need some input from our Canadian members as to the law in this matter, at the end of the day both a wife and daughter have been abandoned, and I will need to decide if I want to take on the lifetime commitment to this little girl irrespective of how my relationship works out with my gf. Hence I said I'll need to have a good think about this.

Right now I'm minded to do it........my youngest daughter is now 17 and I'm funding her through college......I've been a Dad for 26 years and I'm used to the funding demands of parenthood. I don't intend to be a step father type figure to this little girl that cannot be my role, however I could be an "angel ".

I'll need time for this to settle into my head I think.

I know the business definition of an Angel: "Parties who provide money and invest in a startup company",but you are truly an Angel in the best sense of the word.

But do consider some Basic figures from Thai Visa members..........150,000 members? x 5% contributers @ £10 minimum contribution = £15'000 = 735,000 baht.

I'm probably going to get a warning for this,contravening tv rules.

Good work, and a

Edited August 30, 2012 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

She a competitor for the inheritence of a seriously ill man. Sadly, that probably weighs heaviest on their minds right now.

A valid point, however I think the Thai wife would be delighted to know that she can get some contribution towards the upkeep of her daughter every month, and possibly to receive some clarity as to her pension rights if her husband passes away.

And possibly? if the child is a British Citizen by Birthright from the father? it may be worth a phone call to the DWP UK to see if she is entitled to anything from the UK? from his contributions.

His wife should be due for £2000 for widows Bereavement Allowance,and maybe more???

Edited August 30, 2012 by MAJIC

[GuestHouse]

In the first instance, if this child is the legal child of the ill Canadian and if the marriage of the Canadian to the Thai was legally registered then it would be a simple mater to make a claim for maintenance and to register the dependency in the Canadian courts (Distance and communicating across international boundaries might cause some difficultly but that ought not to be insurmountable).

The assumption that the family has acted to protect their own inheritance, is just that, assumption. They may equally not be able to provide for the ill father and his family.

The welfare issue here started when the father got ill, as the OP points out the mother/wife was taking on all the burden - In reality the tip of a the welfare iceberg that comes with large numbers of ageing foreigners moving into a society with insufficient planning/funds/support. As I've often said Thailand is facing a welfare disaster from exactly these kind of circumstances - prepare to hear these stories more and more often.

If the OP can, and it is not an obligation, he might consider helping the mother register her and her child's legal rights with the Canadian authorities - Perhaps there are Canadians here who could help with information on resources and organisations who can help with that.

[wamberal]

In the first instance, if this child is the legal child of the ill Canadian and if the marriage of the Canadian to the Thai was legally registered then it would be a simple mater to make a claim for maintenance and to register the dependency in the Canadian courts (Distance and communicating across international boundaries might cause some difficultly but that ought not to be insurmountable).

I would be very surprised if the question of a legal marriage would matter much in terms of the child's rights under Canadian law. Surely the fact that her father was Canadian is the main criterion in terms of her rights?

Surely the Canadian consulate would take an active interest in a case like this.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Sure argues for an Expat to have prepared a WILL that covers assets in his home country, and if any assets in Thailand, a separate WILL for here.

Mac

[Bluetongue]

In the first instance, if this child is the legal child of the ill Canadian and if the marriage of the Canadian to the Thai was legally registered then it would be a simple mater to make a claim for maintenance and to register the dependency in the Canadian courts (Distance and communicating across international boundaries might cause some difficultly but that ought not to be insurmountable).

I would be very surprised if the question of a legal marriage would matter much in terms of the child's rights under Canadian law. Surely the fact that her father was Canadian is the main criterion in terms of her rights?

Surely the Canadian consulate would take an active interest in a case like this.

Someone would have to tell them first. I personally think they would not get involved in a substantive way, they are public servants not social workers. It is essentially a (tragic) civil matter. Perhaps they would be a port of call for the information on resources and organisations another poster called for though.

[Orac]

Though I have sympathy with the child and mother is this dificult situation it is hardly unusual in Thailand where it is not uncommon for children to be raised by a single mother or indeed grandparents, particularly in poorer regions.

It is a timely reminder to those of us with children that it is our responsibility to make sure we have made provisions for our offspring particularly when having children later in life where there is obviously a greater risk of not being there to see the child through to adulthood.

[BookMan]

I'd be interested in the motivations of the family. Are the family's issue with the mother of the child, not with the child herself? Perhaps there was some resentment towards their father's initial move to Thailand and him raising a child there?

They also may not feel, personally, any connection to their half sister.

A central question would be if the father had any assets remaining. if he did , you would think he would want some provision made for his daughter in Thailand.

[Mario2008]

The OP rights biological father, I take this means the father and mother were not legally married.

In that case the child (the mother on her behalf) should file a paternty suit against the father, so a judge will determine if he is the father or not. That will open up the way to demand child support, inheritance and any welfare claims there might be to make. And might also give the child Canadian nationality.

If married, the father can be sued directly for child maintenance.

Contact a child rights organisation in Canada, they might show they way and do a lot of the work.

[Trembly]

If the father is on the birth certificate then the child is a Canadian citizen irrespective of whether he and the mother were or are married. That is unless the father is himself a child of natuarlised Canadians and was himself born outside Canada - that would mean that the citizenship line stops at him unless his offspring are born in Canada or are born to a natural born (ie. to Canadian parents in Canada) Canadian mother.

If the child is indeed a Canadian citizen then I would think that the Canadian Embassy would be the first port of call so as to link up with the relevant child support agencies in Canada who do consider overseas cases concerning Canadian citizens / children to be in their remit.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Trembly

[Mario2008]

If the father is on the birth certificate then the child is a Canadian citizen irrespective of whether he and the mother were or are married. That is unless the father is himself a child of natuarlised Canadians and was himself born outside Canada - that would mean that the citizenship line stops at him unless his offspring are born in Canada or are born to a natural born (ie. to Canadian parents in Canada) Canadian mother.

If the child is indeed a Canadian citizen then I would think that the Canadian Embassy would be the first port of call so as to link up with the relevant child support agencies in Canada who do consider overseas cases concerning Canadian citizens / children to be in their remit.

A Thai birt certificate only makes a claim that the person mentioned on there is the father, it is not proof of fatherhood.

You can name anyone on the birth certificate, from the pope to Bill Gates, but it doesn't make them the father.

[giddyup]

I know of one guy here (but I'm sure he's not alone) who abandoned his family in his home country because he didn't want to pay maintenance after separating from his wife. This guy has now started a new family here and spares no expense in raising his new child. If things turn sour here I expect him to abandon them as well rather than pay any maintenance. Some guys have the morals of soi dogs.

[Trembly]

If the father is on the birth certificate then the child is a Canadian citizen irrespective of whether he and the mother were or are married. That is unless the father is himself a child of natuarlised Canadians and was himself born outside Canada - that would mean that the citizenship line stops at him unless his offspring are born in Canada or are born to a natural born (ie. to Canadian parents in Canada) Canadian mother.

If the child is indeed a Canadian citizen then I would think that the Canadian Embassy would be the first port of call so as to link up with the relevant child support agencies in Canada who do consider overseas cases concerning Canadian citizens / children to be in their remit.

A Thai birt certificate only makes a claim that the person mentioned on there is the father, it is not proof of fatherhood.

You can name anyone on the birth certificate, from the pope to Bill Gates, but it doesn't make them the father.

It was good enough for the Canadian authorities when my father registered me.

Conclusive and relatively inexpensive DNA testing is available these days anyway.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Trembly

[TommoPhysicist]

If the father is on the birth certificate then the child is a Canadian citizen irrespective of whether he and the mother were or are married. That is unless the father is himself a child of natuarlised Canadians and was himself born outside Canada - that would mean that the citizenship line stops at him unless his offspring are born in Canada or are born to a natural born (ie. to Canadian parents in Canada) Canadian mother.

If the child is indeed a Canadian citizen then I would think that the Canadian Embassy would be the first port of call so as to link up with the relevant child support agencies in Canada who do consider overseas cases concerning Canadian citizens / children to be in their remit.

A Thai birt certificate only makes a claim that the person mentioned on there is the father, it is not proof of fatherhood.

You can name anyone on the birth certificate, from the pope to Bill Gates, but it doesn't make them the father.

It was good enough for the Canadian authorities when my father registered me.

Conclusive and relatively inexpensive DNA testing is available these days anyway.

Yes, but your father did register you.

In this case I suspect there is no evidence to show the child belongs to the Canadian gentleman.

What if his family had offered to take the child back to Canada and care for her ......... offer would have been refused.

It really isn't common practice in the west to send money to raise illegitimate siblings. (Well I have never heard of such a case)

The title of the thread is slightly misleading.

Child Abandonment ........ who exactly has been abandoned by whom?

Mum is still with the child

Dad (questionable parentage) has been removed to die in hospital.

Just another everyday tale of a typical Thai family.

Best think you could do, Bleather, is help the child be registered as a Canadian citizen.

And as a warning to all fathers, when you have a child, get their citizenship sorted immediately, don't wait until you're dead.

Edited August 31, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Trembly]

If the father is on the birth certificate then the child is a Canadian citizen irrespective of whether he and the mother were or are married. That is unless the father is himself a child of natuarlised Canadians and was himself born outside Canada - that would mean that the citizenship line stops at him unless his offspring are born in Canada or are born to a natural born (ie. to Canadian parents in Canada) Canadian mother.

If the child is indeed a Canadian citizen then I would think that the Canadian Embassy would be the first port of call so as to link up with the relevant child support agencies in Canada who do consider overseas cases concerning Canadian citizens / children to be in their remit.

A Thai birt certificate only makes a claim that the person mentioned on there is the father, it is not proof of fatherhood.

You can name anyone on the birth certificate, from the pope to Bill Gates, but it doesn't make them the father.

It was good enough for the Canadian authorities when my father registered me.

Conclusive and relatively inexpensive DNA testing is available these days anyway.

Yes, but your father did register you.

In this case I suspect there is no evidence to show the child belongs to the Canadian gentleman.

What if his family had offered to take the child back to Canada and care for her ......... offer would have been refused.

It really isn't common practice in the west to send money to raise illegitimate siblings. (Well I have never heard of such a case)

The title of the thread is slightly misleading.

Child Abandonment ........ who exactly has been abandoned by whom?

Mum is still with the child

Dad (questionable parentage) has been removed to die in hospital.

Just another everyday tale of a typical Thai family.

Best think you could do, Bleather, is help the child be registered as a Canadian citizen.

And as a warning to all fathers, when you have a child, get their citizenship sorted immediately, don't wait until you're dead.

In the event that the Canadian social services do send any money they would not be sending any money to raise an illegitimate sibling, they would be sending the money to raise a child of a Canadian citizen who has paid his Social Insurance contributions.

This is just conjecture on my part, but I would think that a progressive country such as Canada would look favourably upon the child regardless of the mother's non-Canadian citizenship, so long as paternity can be proven.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Trembly

[evadgib]

This website may prove useful to the OP, indeed as he's in UK he can visit thir local branch or ring their helpline (they're in touch with similar groups elsewhere inc Canada).

www.fnf.org.uk

[jacktrip]

dads family probably figures the daughter is being taken care of by you guys. you indicated she sees you as a family and relates to you as parental figures.

usually in death the money will transfer to the next of kin if there is no will, or be held in trust until they are adults, usually 18. Just contact the canadian office of the trustee and register the daughter as next of kin with proof if they don't already have it. the family can't just step in and snatch everything.

perhaps you need to contact the family and tell them you don't want to deal with the daughter on your own. are you prepared for them to assume custody? may be difficult to send the daughter to live with strangers if she currently views you as family. also, hard for the dads family to suggest taking here straight away.

as with any hard luck story in Thailand, I won't be sending in a donation. sorry. but if I was personally familiar with the case it would be a worthwhile cause.

Edited August 31, 2012 by jacktrip

[travelmann]

I know of one guy here (but I'm sure he's not alone) who abandoned his family in his home country because he didn't want to pay maintenance after separating from his wife. This guy has now started a new family here and spares no expense in raising his new child. If things turn sour here I expect him to abandon them as well rather than pay any maintenance. Some guys have the morals of soi dogs.

I know of one too with one kid in the UK who he forks out for and then he had twins in Thailand with a new wife, dumped her for a bargirl and had another one with her, he pays nothing for the twins,Oh and he is a very high up teacher at a good uni in BKK ie 100k + salary.Maybe the Canadian family just see this child as their Fathers stupidity in old age.

[maxme]

She a competitor for the inheritence of a seriously ill man. Sadly, that probably weighs heaviest on their minds right now.

I think it's a mix between being a competitor for the inheritence and the generalized idea of what a Thai woman is abroad. Combine those two and you have a nasty conclusion.

That said have you contacted the family about the situation blether and talked to them about his whole ordeal because that should be the first step should it not? At least then you have some hum of what to do...

Edited August 31, 2012 by maxme