A Selfish Attitude

[submaniac]

I think there is considerably more charity in Thailand than most people give them credit for. I get the feeling that a lot of the monk related chairty is face giving more than anything but there is a lot of good work being done and the real benefactors are often unknown. The right kind of charity in my opinion.

Pseudolus said something positive about Thailand and the Thai people? Is this an impending sign of the apocolypse? I find myself actually agreeing here. The vast majority of Thais, even if they don't have alot of money themselves, always make some type of financial donation to a temple or a monk.

[Trembly]

We should also take note that there are a number of cultural factors at play - As we have been reminded in this thread Thais do make donations to charities / causes, those donations of course take place within Thai cultural norms.

A particular difficulty arises around 'indebtedness', consider that a favour given is a debt of favour incurred.

Favour trading and favour indebtedness might almost be described as the oil that helps Thai society run. It makes for smooth running between close social groups but gets a bit awkward when an interloper appears on the scene.

I've often sat amused at the lengths Thai friends and colleagues will go to avoid getting into a favour debt with someone they don't know - Actually, I've probably had a lot more amusement observing Thai friends and colleagues trying to avoid being even introduced to someone they have no 'Thai social link to'.

The act of a Thai person giving charitable help to a stranger in Thailand cannot take place outside of these cultural rules, they absolutely play a part in charitable deeds in Thailand.

Regarding the bulk of your post, it's no different from declining an invitation to a group holiday that you don't feel able to contribute to, thereby avoiding a situation where you would be forced to forsake good behavioural manners.

As for the very last paragraph; a repulsive generalisation, patently untrue and sub-standard to your previous posts.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Trembly

[Trembly]

Here's another observation.

Last year I took part in one of those Thai fund raising, aid raising events others have mentioned above. The event was organised by a Thai social club - The amount of money, raised was small, the amount of goods donated was huge.

This is worth mentioning because I see no evidence that Thai people are not generous - they've got some pretty screwed up ideas about charitable giving, but they do give.

I can feel a few members twitching at that last sentence, priming themselves to start a ranting response 'Who is GH to say Thais have pretty screwed up ideas about charitable giving'? - Please hold your fire for a moment.

So back to the charitable event - I was asked and agreed to take part. A week or so later I received a shopping list, things that were required for the charity drive accompanied by a set of notes relating to things that are not required.

The general gist was buy from the list, but don't buy anything that is too fancy, soap should be unscented. Shampoo should be plane with no conditioner. Curiously women's hygiene products (sanitary towels ) where not on the list and yet these are primary aid items.

I thought at first the instructions were to reduce unnecessary costs - but right through the list the cost was never mentioned - Give stuff, but don't give stuff you yourself might like. I myself went to Watson, they had a buy two get one free sale on - I bought what was on sale (sorry some of it was scented). Oh loads of sanitary towels.

Evidence of Thai generosity came in the form of 6 large lorries full of donated aid. (Again, you'll not catch me saying Thais are not generous). OK the vast majority was from companies and international companies where at the top of the donors' list, but there was a huge amount of stuff donated.

Now the really screwed up bit (To GH's way of thinking).

We trucked all this stuff up North to be distributed around Hill Tribe Villages, the stuff was split into batches, each batch to a different village.

I went along to three villages and witnessed first hand the blunt end of Thai charity.

Where I expected the goods to be handed out, perhaps in boxes, perhaps to individuals or perhaps to village heads, but handed over without a lot of fuss, what actually occurred was the whole village were brought out and stood in lines.

Handing over the goods was a day long photo shoot, then just like one of those Thai soap operas where they re-run all the 'best bits' in the last episode - The recipients where dragged over again and prompted to sing the praises of their kind benefactors (all for the benefit of the video).

I witness 'charity workers' rehearsing children in the lines they must say 'all together now for the camera'.

This was repeated in each of the three villages I visited.

Now clearly the people received a load of stuff, but was it the stuff they needed and what else did they receive other than a lesson in grovelling to there benefactors.

This to my mind is not charity, it is largesse and I personally shall never get involved with such a show again.

That really is f_cked up.

[Pseudolus]

I think there is considerably more charity in Thailand than most people give them credit for. I get the feeling that a lot of the monk related chairty is face giving more than anything but there is a lot of good work being done and the real benefactors are often unknown. The right kind of charity in my opinion.

Pseudolus said something positive about Thailand and the Thai people? Is this an impending sign of the apocolypse? I find myself actually agreeing here. The vast majority of Thais, even if they don't have alot of money themselves, always make some type of financial donation to a temple or a monk.

Now just hang on a minute - you missed what I was saying . Charity where the idea is to gain face or buy fortune / forgiveness for sins which a lot monk donations is all about is not a good thing on many levels. There is a lot of charitable donations that are faceless though, and having been to quite a few charity events here there are always considerable private donations. Of course, they might come from westerners though. Who knows?

What's the crack with disability here though? General law of averages seems to dictate that there must be more disabled people in Thailand than you see except for the beggars. I enquired at the Labour Department once if there were any initiatives to help employment for people with disabilities in Thailand fully intending to offer employment first and foremost in this area (for personal reasons) and they looked at me as if I was off my head.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Pseudolus

[submaniac]

Now just hang on a minute - you missed what I was saying .

Whew. That's a relief...and here I thought the apocolypse was upon us!

[GuestHouse]

The act of a Thai person giving charitable help to a stranger in Thailand cannot take place outside of these cultural rules, they absolutely play a part in charitable deeds in Thailand.

As for the very last paragraph; a repulsive generalisation, patently untrue and sub-standard to your previous posts.

"Repulsive Generalisation" how so?

Or are you telling us that Thai people step out of their culture inorder to make charitable donations and then back into their culture once their donation is made?

[GuestHouse]

That really is f_cked up.

Well I did say it was screwed up, or are you objecting to my observation?

[samran]

You are entirely right Samran, the Largesse I found so abhorrent within the Thai Charity event in the Hill Tribe Villages is not restricted to Thais only.

Some of the nastiest individuals in the expat community here in Thailand make great use of Charity as a means of whitewashing their own personal history.

The line between charity and largesse is a thin one.

And since charity is so very close to the emotions of the people who participate in real charity (not largesse), why should we be at all surprised that hard held cultural beliefs would not play a significant role - In Thailand and elsewhere.

sorry - just to be clear - this all happened in Bangkok. Monies donated from Australia, but school was in BKK.

Sorry if I had inadvertantly mislead.

[samran]

I think there is considerably more charity in Thailand than most people give them credit for. I get the feeling that a lot of the monk related chairty is face giving more than anything but there is a lot of good work being done and the real benefactors are often unknown. The right kind of charity in my opinion.

As an aside, I notice that Thailand typically does better in the Paraolympics than they do in the main event. Disability here is not something you encounter very much aside from the beggars. It's good though that there is a strong showing in the Paraolympics - is there a charitable trust involved there?

Bloody hell, you must be on drugs. Clearly your comments are out of character.

Problem is, I agree with you.

Dunno about the Para-olympics though. I thought they were Saturday nights of my early 20's down the pub.

Edited September 3, 2012 by samran

[Pseudolus]

I think there is considerably more charity in Thailand than most people give them credit for. I get the feeling that a lot of the monk related chairty is face giving more than anything but there is a lot of good work being done and the real benefactors are often unknown. The right kind of charity in my opinion.

As an aside, I notice that Thailand typically does better in the Paraolympics than they do in the main event. Disability here is not something you encounter very much aside from the beggars. It's good though that there is a strong showing in the Paraolympics - is there a charitable trust involved there?

Bloody hell, you must be on drugs. Clearly your comments are out of character.

Problem is, I agree with you.

Dunno about the Para-olympics though. I thought they were Saturday nights of my early 20's down the pub.

555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

It is amazing I find how many Thai people are unaware of event in the Paralympics. I think Thailand in 2008 the paralympic squad won 3 times more medals than the able bodies team. Why is this? Is this a reflection of how society interacts and views disability?

I do know though that disabled people in Thailand qualify for a pension of 500 baht per month here though. Wow.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Pseudolus

[DavoTheGun]

Well this topic has certainly sparked a lot of interest, quite a lot more then I expected and as I said in an earlier post changed my thinking a wee bit, It has also highlighted the different views we all hold and makes for a good debate.

I still think the views the Thai People have on the subject has much to do with the culture and they way they were brought up. I also think these views will change slowly as the country becomes more westernized, don't know if that is a good thing or not!

[Trembly]

The act of a Thai person giving charitable help to a stranger in Thailand cannot take place outside of these cultural rules, they absolutely play a part in charitable deeds in Thailand.

As for the very last paragraph; a repulsive generalisation, patently untrue and sub-standard to your previous posts.

"Repulsive Generalisation" how so?

Or are you telling us that Thai people step out of their culture inorder to make charitable donations and then back into their culture once their donation is made?

This is going full circle . . . to be honest I'm so nonplussed I don't really know just how to respond but I'll borrow from Samran by saying that maybe you could try "there are people in Thailand who can't do a favour for anyone without keeping a score, just like there are anywhere else" for size. Hardly grounds to generalise that sort of behaviour as a governing trait of Thai culture, so much so that someone would have to actually 'step out of Thai culture' in order to perform a simple act of charity.

Culture is the successful politics of a given situation, i.e. stuff that works and gets good results in those situations. If enough people go along with and reward certain behaviour in whatever which way, that becomes the culture because people respond to the incentive by carrying on with that behaviour. Going by this particular definition of Thai culture of yours I see Thais breaking and forsaking Thai cultural mores all the time - they've probably been doing it time in memoriam.

To pronounce that Thai people or people who have grown up in Thai culture do not make charitable donations or behave in a selfless manner without strictly adhering to a tally of 'favour obligations' is just utter nonsense. Some do, but these people are the same as anal jobsworths or favour-worths any where in the world who abuse the good manners / nature / will of other people (by mercilessly claiming their pound of flesh in favours). It's almost as absurd as the opening sentiments of the 'Thais don't have real friends' thread.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Trembly

[Trembly]

That really is f_cked up.

Well I did say it was screwed up, or are you objecting to my observation?

I was agreeing with your observation.

[GuestHouse]

The act of a Thai person giving charitable help to a stranger in Thailand cannot take place outside of these cultural rules, they absolutely play a part in charitable deeds in Thailand.

Trembly,

Have another read and tell me precisely where I say that a Thai person has to step out of their culture to perform a charitable act - I absolutely have not said that - Though I have asked if that is your own argument.

What I have said is Thai people do make charitable donations, I have pointed out the generosity of Thais in this respect, I discussed cultural norms/rules and specific charecteristics of Thai culture that impact charitable giving (impact - not negate).

I then say that Thai charitable giving takes place within Thai cultural rules (cannot take place outside of Thai cultural rules) See quote above.

I'll make it very simple for you - Thai people make charitable donations and when the do they make those donations in accordance with their Thai cultual.

You find that a repulsive generlization - Either you did not understand the point or you deliberatly chose to be offended.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that in no sense can all the aspects of Thai cultural rules have been defined in this thread or perhaps in the whole TV database.

For my part I'll accept you blaming me personally for this short fall - I hang my head in shame that I have failed to fully catalouge this nation's entire cultural norms.

Edited September 3, 2012 by GuestHouse

[Pseudolus]

The act of a Thai person giving charitable help to a stranger in Thailand cannot take place outside of these cultural rules, they absolutely play a part in charitable deeds in Thailand.

Trembly,

Have another read and tell me precisely where I say that a Thai person has to step out of their culture to perform a charitable act - I absolutely have not said that - Though I have asked if that is your own argument.

What I have said is Thai people do make charitable donations, I have pointed out the generosity of Thais in this respect, I discussed cultural norms/rules and specific charecteristics of Thai culture that impact charitable giving (impact - not negate).

I then say that Thai charitable giving takes place within Thai cultural rules (cannot take place outside of Thai cultural rules) See quote above.

I'll make it very simple for you - Thai people make charitable donations and when the do they make those donations in accordance with their Thai cultual.

You find that a repulsive generlization - Either you did not understand the point or you deliberatly chose to be offended.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that in no sense can all the aspects of Thai cultural rules have been defined in this thread or perhaps in the whole TV database.

For my part I'll accept you blaming me personally for this short fall - I hang my head in shame that I have failed to fully catalouge this nation's entire cultural norms.

Indeed - and your example show very well the apparent norm here of giving charity with one hand whilst the other one takes away the recipients dignity

[Berkshire]

This is going full circle . . . to be honest I'm so nonplussed I don't really know just how to respond but I'll borrow from Samran by saying that maybe you could try "there are people in Thailand who can't do a favour for anyone without keeping a score, just like there are anywhere else" for size. Hardly grounds to generalise that sort of behaviour as a governing trait of Thai culture, so much so that someone would have to actually 'step out of Thai culture' in order to perform a simple act of charity.

Culture is the successful politics of a given situation, i.e. stuff that works and gets good results in those situations. If enough people go along with and reward certain behaviour in whatever which way, that becomes the culture because people respond to the incentive by carrying on with that behaviour. Going by this particular definition of Thai culture of yours I see Thais breaking and forsaking Thai cultural mores all the time - they've probably been doing it time in memoriam.

To pronounce that Thai people or people who have grown up in Thai culture do not make charitable donations or behave in a selfless manner without strictly adhering to a tally of 'favour obligations' is just utter nonsense. Some do, but these people are the same as anal jobsworths or favour-worths any where in the world who abuse the good manners / nature / will of other people (by mercilessly claiming their pound of flesh in favours). It's almost as absurd as the opening sentiments of the 'Thais don't have real friends' thread.

Good post. Thais aren't that different when it comes to helping others. Their generosity may even exceed those in the west, if you consider the circumstances. America, for example, is renown for giving money to charity and those in need. But if there wasn't a tax benefit for doing so, would this philanthropic attitude diminish? Well of course it would. Everyone knows this. Does this mean Americans and farangs in general are selfish? Of course not.

[hotandhumid]

Maybe you should start to give her some money so a few baht down the market won't mean so much to her.

[Trembly]

The act of a Thai person giving charitable help to a stranger in Thailand cannot take place outside of these cultural rules, they absolutely play a part in charitable deeds in Thailand.

Trembly,

Have another read and tell me precisely where I say that a Thai person has to step out of their culture to perform a charitable act - I absolutely have not said that - Though I have asked if that is your own argument.

What I have said is Thai people do make charitable donations, I have pointed out the generosity of Thais in this respect, I discussed cultural norms/rules and specific charecteristics of Thai culture that impact charitable giving (impact - not negate).

I then say that Thai charitable giving takes place within Thai cultural rules (cannot take place outside of Thai cultural rules) See quote above.

I'll make it very simple for you - Thai people make charitable donations and when the do they make those donations in accordance with their Thai cultual.

You find that a repulsive generlization - Either you did not understand the point or you deliberatly chose to be offended.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that in no sense can all the aspects of Thai cultural rules have been defined in this thread or perhaps in the whole TV database.

For my part I'll accept you blaming me personally for this short fall - I hang my head in shame that I have failed to fully catalouge this nation's entire cultural norms.

Let's just stick to the 'cultural norms' surrounding charitable behaviour. Are there actually any, in any country? Doesn't charity by it's very definition come from the individual rather than as part of a common-reference-point-adherent schema?

[GuestHouse]

Let's just stick to the 'cultural norms' surrounding charitable behaviour. Are there actually any, in any country? Doesn't charity by it's very definition come from the individual rather than as part of a common-reference-point-adherent schema?

It is a cultural norm in the UK to donate second hand clothes to charity shops - Japanese friends of mine who have visited the UK have actually asked to go see secondhand clothing in Charity shops, not because they want to buy any, but because they find it a completely off the radar strange thing about British Culture - Giving second hand clothing to charity shops is unfathomable to Japanese people - not in their culture.

Next!

[DavoTheGun]

Om a slightly different note but on the same premise, many countries rely heavily on volunteers to run Social networks, Hospitals, Old Folks Homes etc I am referring to Australia in particular, does this volunteer structure exist in Thailand?

Are there actual Volunteer organisations?

[GuestHouse]

There are volunteer organisations but they are usually under the control of religious or political organisations.

You may recall that during last year's floods large amonts of aid was'witheld' from distribution in areas that did not support the politically controlled volunteer organisation that was 'handling' the distribution.

[katana]

Let's just stick to the 'cultural norms' surrounding charitable behaviour. Are there actually any, in any country? Doesn't charity by it's very definition come from the individual rather than as part of a common-reference-point-adherent schema?

It is a cultural norm in the UK to donate second hand clothes to charity shops - Japanese friends of mine who have visited the UK have actually asked to go see secondhand clothing in Charity shops, not because they want to buy any, but because they find it a completely off the radar strange thing about British Culture - Giving second hand clothing to charity shops is unfathomable to Japanese people - not in their culture.

Next!

Many years ago I read a similar thing about second hand motorcycles in Japan. Don't know how true it is. Due to the stigma of 'secondhandness' in Japan, there isn't really much of market for used motorcycles. So it was possible to pick them up quite cheaply in Japan, ship them over to eg the UK and still make a profit.

[JSixpack]

Can we change the title of this topic to "My Girlfriend is a hoarder".

It has got nothing to do with broader Thai culture or its people

+1. It's not uncommon for Thais to hoard old clothes, though. Not to say I haven't seen the same thing among 'Mercuns. Women often think that someday they're going to lose weight and be able to wear some of those old clothes.