Illegitimate Thai Child Wants To Come To Uk And Become British Citizen - Visa Question

[jpb23]

The funny thing is this is where I was at when before I spoke to anyone! The confusion started when a friend of a friend assured me that I could not apply for citizenship if the subject is not in the UK for a period of around 2 years.

If you look deeper in the MN_1 guide it discusses residency so I took the stipulations in there to be applicable to my case hence the concerns about a visa.

If the situation is as simple as just applying and supplying the correct documentation is there any point believing it is a tricky as the lawyer is suggesting? Do applications submitted by law firms get any special attention? I am all for getting a successful outcome but is the £700 fee really justified?

Again thank you all for your contributions. Hopefully this thread might help others.

[Eff1n2ret]

If the situation is as simple as just applying and supplying the correct documentation is there any point believing it is a tricky as the lawyer is suggesting? Do applications submitted by law firms get any special attention? I am all for getting a successful outcome but is the £700 fee really justified?

Your encounters with the legal profession do not inspire confidence; two of them had barely a clue, and the third told you it's a 'minefield', only after going and looking it up - so he's probably never made such an application, or why wouldn't he have been able to tell you the score straight off? And if he's never done one before, how does he know it's a minefield?

So, in possession of the info provided by several of us on this thread, you really know as much as they do, and I'm not aware that submitting an application through a lawyer gives it a better chance - you pay them to put it together, but after that, if it's a valid application it's granted, otherwise if it's faulty it's rejected.

The criteria to be met are relatively few and seem uncomplicated, in that they are matters of fact rather than opinion, and UKBA say that such applications are normally granted. You may feel you need the support of a legal advisor, but best to pick one that has a successful track record of such cases.

[7by7]

Indeed, your average solicitor in the UK, to be blunt, hasn't a clue about immigration and nationality law; as your experience has shown.

If you do feel the need to consult a lawyer or advisor then speak to one who is qualified and experienced in this area.

Applications submitted through an advisor do not receive any special attention, but one who is experienced in this area can ensure that you have all the necessary evidence and present the application in the best way.

If you do want to seek professional advice then, as you appear to be in the UK, I suggest that you contact Davis Khan, who many here know to be competent.

[I Like Thai]

Yes I was born in the UK to British parents.

Any chance that you are eligible to be an Irish citizen ?

If so, then you will not have any problems. If you could obtain Irish citizenship for yourself, then your child would be eligible for an Irish passport as a child of an Irish citizen. You and the child wouldn't have to jump through any hoops to get a passport for her, as the Rights of the Child are guaranteed in the constitution. She would be Irish in her own right, It wouldn't matter what you had done or what contact you may have had with her in her life up to this point.

Edited September 5, 2012 by I Like Thai

[7by7]

I don't think it is as simple as you make out.

Unless the OP was born on the island of Ireland before 1st January 2005, he would have to go through a similar procedure to that of the UK in order to obtain Irish nationality for the child before he could obtain an Irish passport for her.

Having first established his Irish citizenship!

See Entitlement to Citizenship

[I Like Thai]

I don't think it is as simple as you make out.

Unless the OP was born on the island of Ireland before 1st January 2005, he would have to go through a similar procedure to that of the UK in order to obtain Irish nationality for the child before he could obtain an Irish passport for her.

Having first established his Irish citizenship!

See Entitlement to Citizenship

Sorry, that link doesn't open for me.

If the OP was born in Northern Ireland he will be automatically entitled to be an Irish Citizen.

i thought he may have been born in northern ireland as he advised he was born in the UK. If not it is a Moot point.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Citizenship through birth in Ireland

If you were born in Ireland and your parent(s) were Irish citizens, then you are also an Irish citizen.

However, in certain circumstances some people born in Ireland have to claim Irish citizenship. You can find more details about claiming Irish citizenship through special declaration in 'Further information' below.

Under the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, children born of certain foreign national parents on or after 1 January 2005 are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency. Other foreign national parents of children born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by their having 3 out of the previous 4 years reckonable residence in the island of Ireland immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and can apply for a certificate of nationality - see 'How to apply' below.

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

So, if you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born in Ireland, then you are an Irish citizen.

If your parent derived Irish citizenship in another manner, for example, through marriage, adoption or naturalisation, further information can be obtained from your nearest Irish embassy or consulate.

If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was deceased at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen. Also, you derive citizenship through an Irish parent whether or not your parents were married to each other at the time of your birth.

Edited September 5, 2012 by I Like Thai

[TommoPhysicist]

We may normally register the illegitimate minor child, born before 1 July 2006, of a British

citizen father under section 3 (1) if the criteria at a-c. (and, if appropriate, d.) below are all

satisfied:

a. We are satisfied about the paternity of the child; and

b. We have the consent of all those with parental responsibility; and

c. If the child had been born to the father legitimately:

i. the child would have had an automatic claim to British citizenship; or

ii. the child would have had an entitlement to registration under either section

1 (3), section 3 (2) or sections 3 (5); or

iii. we would normally have registered under section 3 (1). And, if appropriate

d. There is no reason to refuse on character grounds

Do you see a problem with satisfying any of the four requirements? If this is really all the UKBA needs for the citizenship registration, it looks like a piece of cake for your daughter and you can forget about all the other documentation you prepared when you thought she needed to apply for a visa.

I think Maesto is correct (as I suggested in post #14).

A certified translation of birth certificate (with your name as father) and copy of Thai original

B letter from mother

C Yes

D Yes

So simple that you don't need a solicitor.

Edited September 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[jpb23]

Thank you again and I think I have the confidence to go for it myself.

In answer to the Irish Citizenship issue. My mother was born in Ireland as were both my granparents. I am an Irish citizen by birth (verified by citzinsinformation.ie.)

My daughter IS entitled to Irish citizneship by descent. It is that simple however I imagine the process is just as much fun as that offered by our beloved mother country and I'd prefer a UK passport unless someone else has any reason or benefits I don't know about when being Irish? Be very interested to know since I might get my own Irish passport!

[7by7]

I think Maesto is correct (as I suggested in post #14).

Maestro is correct, but he is confirming the contents of guide MN1, on how to register the child as British. This information had been posted by others before your post 14.

Your post 14 reads

No worries. Simply,if you are the British born father of an illegitimate child born prior to July 2006 your child does not automatically qualify for Citizenship.

In the case that they are born before you have to prove paternity and provide other proof as discussed in my post in order to register.

You just apply for a British passport for the kid.

Proof of paternity will be taken as the Thai birth certificate translated into English and a letter of confirmation from the mother.

Nothing to do with the UKBA at all, just the passport office.

(Eff beat me to it)

(I am British otherwise than by descent - born here to British parents).

This statement makes no sense.

If one of your parents was British and born in Britain, then you are British by descent.

If you were born outside of Britain, but one of your parents was British and born in Britain, your child is also British by descent, but will need you fathers or mothers birth certificate to claim citizenship.

All of which is completely and utterly wrong!

The OP cannot simply apply for a passport for her; he was not married to her mother and she was born before July 2006, so she is not currently British. He has to register her as such first; as was pointed out to you by Eff1n2ret in post 15.

Your explanation of British by descent is also wrong; see my and others earlier explanations of the difference between British by descent and British otherwise than by descent.

If someone is British by descent then their children will only automatically be British if they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory; unless the other parent is British otherwise than by descent. Though they can apply to register the child as British.

This is not the OP's case, though. He is British otherwise than by descent, so had he been married to the child's mother then his daughter would automatically be British. Had she be born after July 2006 then she would also be British, even though the OP was not married to her mother.

But, as said, neither of the above are true, she is not currently British. So he has to obtain British nationality for her by registering her as British before he can obtain a British passport for her.

You do seem to have accepted all of this after being corrected by Eff1n2ret.

That you originally posted incorrect information is not a problem; we all get it wrong at times.

But that you are now attempting to take credit for the correct information provided by others is rather sad.

Edited September 5, 2012 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

Go for it. Your daughter is morally a British Citizen by descent. This is a right after a set date (July 2006) and discretionary before this. I am amazed that the legal advisers have taken the approach they have!

She is your daughter (proved by DNA) and for the UKBA to put the phrase 'we will normally register an illegitimate child' says it all! They expect to accept citizenship in these cases where it is only the birth date that would prevent it.

Try 7x7's link it sounds as if you need some good advice. To be quite honest I would just go with filling in the MN1 with the attitude that this is her right!

Edited September 5, 2012 by bobrussell

[TommoPhysicist]

You do seem to have accepted all of this after being corrected by Eff1n2ret.

That you originally posted incorrect information is not a problem; we all get it wrong at times.

But that you are now attempting to take credit for the correct information provided by others is rather sad.

Yeah, you're right and I'm wrong.

[7by7]

See Entitlement to Citizenship

Sorry, that link doesn't open for me

Nor me; Try this one

In answer to the Irish Citizenship issue. My mother was born in Ireland as were both my granparents. I am an Irish citizen by birth (verified by citzinsinformation.ie.)

My daughter IS entitled to Irish citizneship by descent. It is that simple however I imagine the process is just as much fun as that offered by our beloved mother country

From the above link (if it works this time!) .

A person born abroad to a parent who, although not born in Ireland, was otherwise an Irish citizen at the time of the person’s birth, can become an Irish citizen by applying for Foreign Births Registration

(My emphasis)

The advantages of an Irish passport over a British one? None that I can think of; and to be fair, vice versa.

[Richard W]

The advantages of an Irish passport over a British one? None that I can think of; and to be fair, vice versa.

A British passport rather than an Irish passport makes it easier to work in the defence industry in the UK. MoD Security seems to judge nationality on the basis of passports held, rather than passports that one is eligible for.

One extremely risky method of resolving matters did occur to me - a marriage of convenience (or should I say 'to give the child a name') in Thailand followed by a divorce at the amphoe a week later. There are two risks:

1) The mother may try to make financial gain out of it.

2) Just possibly, it might have to be consummated.

Legal advice should be sought before anything as risky as this is undertaken.

[apiwan]

I wonder if someone can clear this up ?

Now I'm renewing my kids UK passports , going through the paper work and they all have UK passports issued by FCO

But the eldest has reg cert

Yet the other two have an entry of birth

When filling out the passport application it asks for certain ref numbers which are on the registration cert but not on entry of birth !!!!

The ? Is are they all registered ?

What do I put on application form when asking for registration references ?

Most important is has they all have British passports and I have sole custody of all 3 ,

Can I ( no plans yet) just get on a plane and go to the UK ???

All advice much appreciated

( pics blanked out intaentionly )

[I Like Thai]

Thank you again and I think I have the confidence to go for it myself.

In answer to the Irish Citizenship issue. My mother was born in Ireland as were both my granparents. I am an Irish citizen by birth (verified by citzinsinformation.ie.)

My daughter IS entitled to Irish citizneship by descent. It is that simple however I imagine the process is just as much fun as that offered by our beloved mother country and I'd prefer a UK passport unless someone else has any reason or benefits I don't know about when being Irish? Be very interested to know since I might get my own Irish passport!

I just had a look at the Irish application form and it is straight forward. Because she is under 18 she will need her mothers and your permission to have an Irish passport, to do this ye will need to also sign the form in front of a dignatory, probably a consulate official.

What makes it easy is that she is automatically recognised as an Irish citizen from birth without having to apply for citizenship.

Here is a sample of an Application form

http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Passport_documents/aps1e.pdf

[I Like Thai]

The advantages of an Irish passport over a British one? None that I can think of; and to be fair, vice versa.

It allows him to bring his daughter to the UK and provide for her as he seems to want to do. They can then work at getting a British passport if they want. They can hold Dual nationality.

[7by7]

What do I put on application form when asking for registration references ?

The same as you would on your passport application; nothing. They are British by birth, not registration.

See Note 1 - Section 1b - Registration in the guidance notes

[7by7]

One extremely risky method of resolving matters did occur to me - a marriage of convenience (or should I say 'to give the child a name') in Thailand followed by a divorce at the amphoe a week later

I don't think this would automatically make the daughter British, he would still need to apply to register her as such.

Edited September 6, 2012 by 7by7

[7by7]

I Like Thai; if you read the link to Entitlement to Citizenship provided earlier, I don't think it's as simple as you make out. She can't simply apply for an Irish passport because she is not yet Irish.

Under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 to 2004, a person who was born outside Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen by descent if one of that person's parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland.

(My emphasis)

The OP wasn't born in Ireland.

A person born abroad to a parent who, although not born in Ireland, was otherwise an Irish citizen at the time of the person’s birth, can become an Irish citizen by applying for Foreign Births Registration...............

(My emphasis)

So it looks like he needs to follow a similar procedure to that for obtaining a British passport for her:

• Registration as a citizen; then
  
• Obtain passport.
  

[harrry]

One extremely risky method of resolving matters did occur to me - a marriage of convenience (or should I say 'to give the child a name') in Thailand followed by a divorce at the amphoe a week later

I don't think this would automatically make the daughter British, he would still need to apply to register her as such.

But he would quite possibly have the pleasure of her company in the UK much earlier if he take the Irish route.

THere is nothing to stop him doing both at the same time either.

Edited September 6, 2012 by harrry

[7by7]

I have no idea which would be quicker, or cheaper, Irish or British. Does anyone?

I'm simply pointing out that she cannot simply apply for an Irish passport (well, she could apply!).

It is up to the OP to decide which route he follows.

Edited September 6, 2012 by 7by7

[Richard W]

One extremely risky method of resolving matters did occur to me - a marriage of convenience (or should I say 'to give the child a name') in Thailand followed by a divorce at the amphoe a week later

I don't think this would automatically make the daughter British, he would still need to apply to register her as such.

http://www.ukba.home...acy?view=Binary Section 1.3 strongly implies that no registration is required.

Section 2.2.1 Sentence 1 looks plain wrong. The Legitimacy Act 1976, as amended, refers only to void marriages, not to voidable marriages, and only applies to void marriages mistakenly believed to be valid. Usefully, it looks as though only the parties to a marriage can petition the courts for a decree of nullity.

[apiwan]

thanks 7x7 for the info.

found this and it clears it up

" Consular birth registrations do not confer British nationality and are not required to register your child as a British citizen or to apply for a British passport as British nationality is passed from parent to child. Your child will need to have an automatic claim to British nationality in order to register their birth.

There is no requirement for a consular birth registration to be done for any birth that has occurred overseas. The original birth certificate issued by the authorities in the country in which the birth took place, along with a notarised translation if necessary, is sufficient for all purposes in the UK (including passport applications).|

from the FCO

http://ukinthailand.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-thailand/how-register-birth/

Monday im sending passport applications together and we will see

[jpb23]

It takes around 6 months to register the Child as an Irish Citizen although one of the sites I looked at said 12-15 months!

I have been told that a properly put together application for British Citizenship is from 2 to 4 months.

I can apply for both but she would have to ditch one of them if she were to successful as a person can only hold dual nationality. She would not be looking to lose her Thai nationality.

[Richard W]

I can apply for both but she would have to ditch one of them if she were to successful as a person can only hold dual nationality. She would not be looking to lose her Thai nationality.

Where does that statement come from? There's plenty of evidence of people exercising three nationalities on the web, e.g. at http://www.australia...uk-27949-4.html .

7by7 recently mused on the prospect of grandchildren with 4 nationalities - http://www.thaivisa....ty/page__st__50 .

[I Like Thai]

It takes around 6 months to register the Child as an Irish Citizen although one of the sites I looked at said 12-15 months!

I have been told that a properly put together application for British Citizenship is from 2 to 4 months.

I can apply for both but she would have to ditch one of them if she were to successful as a person can only hold dual nationality. She would not be looking to lose her Thai nationality.

Maybe this process will speed things up a little bit

http://dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

Foreign Births Registration

Important information as of 4 September 2012

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is currently updating its procedures for the receipt of Foreign Birth’s Registration (FBR) applications. This upgrade of the FBR system is part of our ongoing commitment to improve our service to the public.

The new system will comprise of an on-line application process which will be available electronically from the Department’s website on October 1^st 2012. The system is intended to make it easier and more convenient for applicants to access our service and to advise on the FBR process.

In the interim this Department, either directly or through our Missions overseas, is not accepting FBR applications for processing (except in very exceptional circumstances) by post.

We apologise for any inconvenience that these changes may incur for applicants, however, the new system will provide for a more speedy approval of applications received throughout our network of Missions.

Should you have any difficulties in the short term, prior to the electronic system going live, please contact your nearest Irish Mission or the Consular Services Section here in Dublin, www.dfat.ie, for advice.

A person born abroad to a parent who, although not born in Ireland, was otherwise an Irish citizen at the time of the person’s birth, can become an Irish citizen by applying for Foreign Births Registration, either to the Irish Diplomatic or Consular Mission nearest to where the applicant normally resides or, if resident in Ireland, to:

[harrry]

It takes around 6 months to register the Child as an Irish Citizen although one of the sites I looked at said 12-15 months!

I have been told that a properly put together application for British Citizenship is from 2 to 4 months.

I can apply for both but she would have to ditch one of them if she were to successful as a person can only hold dual nationality. She would not be looking to lose her Thai nationality.

I am sure that is not correct. Although often referred to as dual citizenship it appl;ies to multiple as well.

[Card]

Serious reason for coming to the UK would be to live with her dad wouldn't it?

[Suradit69]

Illegitimate Thai Child

What an unfortunate, pejorative label to put on a child in the 21st century.

Not to sound too politically correct, but

[

Before anti-discrimination laws were made, such children born out of wedlock did not have the same legal rights as other children, and were called "illegitimate". A legal term for "illegitimacy" was "bastardy".

However, after anti-discrimination laws have been passed, such terms as "illegitimate" or "bastard" cannot be used anymore legally in this context, because all children are legitimate.

In the UK the notion of bastardy was effectively abolished by the introduction of The Children Act 1989 (which came into force in 1991), by virtue of introducing the concept of parental responsibility which ensures that a child can have a legal father even if that child's parents weren't married. However it was not until December 2003, with the implementation of parts of The Adoption and Children Act 2002, that parental responsibility was automatically granted to fathers of children born out of wedlock, and even then, only if the father's name appears on the birth certificate."

[Al1]

As a British Citizen your baby will be automatically British and you can fill in the smart form on Line for her British Passport and hand in the documents to the British Embassy in Bangkok. It Costs about 5000 Baht and the Passport will be posted to you if you like or can be collected from the Embassy after 4-6 weeks.