All Silent On 'insecticide' Causing Deaths Of Canadian Sisters: Phi Phi Island

NomadJoe · September 12, 2012

Holly sh!t! there are more of you.

So sorry but deet is a insect repellant, not a bug killer. Before you look stupid like NomadJoe please do some reading. Oh to late.

Lol. Yeah I'm the one that looks stupid.

Look mate, just because it's a repellent doesn't mean it isn't also an insecticide. The two are not mutually exclusive. I used to be a sales rep for mosquito repellent among other things. But don't take my word for it, read the several links I provided. You provided a single quote from a website of a product advocacy group which works for mosquito repellent manufactures. Please tell me that isn't your sole source of your (mis)information?

DEET is used as an insect repellent, not an insecticide. The words hold a clue to their meaning - insect repellent, repels, insecticide - kills, or indeed the very action of killing an insect is, by definition, insecticide (think patricide, fratricide etc, these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers but the act of killing ones father or brother), cide coming from the latin word cidum (killing).

DEET by it's very nature does not kill insects but acts as a strong repellent. That said it has been mixed with other chemicals and used in pesticides, but DEET itself is a repellent.

"(think patricide, fratricide etc, these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers but the act of killing ones father or brother)" Hilarious mate! Thanks.

The definition of insect repellent (chosen by you to describe DEET) vs the definition of the word insecticide (which clearly it is as established as by the multitude of links provided in this thread) is quite amusing. Everyone already knows what "repellent" means and everyone knows what "-cide" means. The issue isn't what the words mean, it's which one DEET is. DEET is an insecticide (insect killing) and pesticide (pest killing) that is used in low quantities as a mosquito repellent. To cure you of your hilarious little language hiccup there, an insecticidal is "of or relating to an insecticide." The as you correctly point out the word "-cide" has nothing to do with chemicals so your comment "these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers" makes no sense here whatsoever.

How people are still thinking that DEET is not an insecticide is quite amusing. Try reading the threads and links again, then if you still aren't convinced please share your reasons and supporting information as to why, When you post baseless things like "DEET by it's very nature does not kill insects but acts as a strong repellent." you just sound silly.

On balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases.

Then I suggest you do somemore reading. I think some of these may have been posted here already.

"There is little information available about oral absorption. Severe symptoms have appeared within 30 minutes of ingestion, which implies rapid GI absorption. Ingestions of DEET have been associated with nausea, vomiting, hypotension, encephalopathy, seizure, coma, and ataxia. Ingestion of 50 mL of 100% DEET by a 33 year-old woman resulted in hyptotension, coma, seizures and death. Ingestion of 25 mL of 50% DEET by a one-year-old child resulted in coma and seizures"

http://uuhsc.utah.ed...ox/Vol7_No2.pdf

"DEET is primarily toxic to the CNS, although the mechanism

of action is unknown. Severe toxicity has resulted in children after having

ingested 25mL of a 50% DEET solution, and in adults after having ingesting

50mL of 100% DEET solution.

Clincial Symptoms:

Clinical effects include:

CV- Hypotension and rarely bradycardia;

CNS – Confusion, ataxia, hypertonicity, drowsiness and seizures;

GI – Abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting;

Dermatologic – Rash and contact uticaria (aka hives: raised, often itchy, red welts on the surface of the skin.)"

- http://www.mnpoison.org/mnpoison/pdfs/DEET-Insect%20Repellent%203-06.pdf

"Intentional Ingestion of DEET

Rarely, people have ingested DEET intentionally to commit suicide, or because of psychological problems (Tenenbein 1987; Fraser et al. 1995). The effects resulting from intentional ingestion are variable, due to the different scenarios in which they occurred. Of the six reported cases of deliberate DEET ingestion, three led to death. In these cases, the amount ingested was 15-50 mL of 47.5% to 95% DEET in bottles. In two cases, bottles of DEET were drunk along with unspecified amounts of alcohol. Health effects included coma, unresponsiveness to pain and other stimuli, and death. In another case, a woman with a history of unipolar-depressive illness ingested a number of pills along with 50 mL of 95% DEET. She arrived at the hospital comatose and pulseless. She had a generalized seizure and died from a generalized bowel infarction (Tenenbein 1987). In another case, a woman with a history of psychological disorders ingested 15-25 mL of 95% DEET. She had a right and left atrial enlargement and diffuse ST-T abnormalities, but returned to normal within 24 hours with no further cardiac abnormalities."

- http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/health-effects.html

Edited September 12, 2012 by NomadJoe

maidu · September 12, 2012

While everyone can appreciate and respect the family's wishes for silence about the case, the newspaper's lack of follow up on the DEET issue in general is deplorable. How can a major English newspaper publish news like this without an investigative report on something so dangerous, toxic , and risky to lives and the Thai business community? Shameful lack of journalistic standards and priorities.

The two English language dailies in Thailand do a rather good job. But they know the pecking order of things. Near the top is tourism, which is the biggest magnet for outside money in Thailand. Not even the two dailies want to hobble the goose which lays the golden eggs.

oops · September 12, 2012

Hopefully the facts will be revealed in the fullness of time to expose what really happened and put the family angst to rest. What a horrible shock to lose sisters from the same family. A tragedy I cannot imagine how one would cope with.

shhhhhhh! it's a secret.

Ferangled · September 13, 2012

"(think patricide, fratricide etc, these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers but the act of killing ones father or brother)" Hilarious mate! Thanks.

The definition of insect repellent (chosen by you to describe DEET) vs the definition of the word insecticide (which clearly it is as established as by the multitude of links provided in this thread) is quite amusing. Everyone already knows what "repellent" means and everyone knows what "-cide" means. The issue isn't what the words mean, it's which one DEET is. DEET is an insecticide (insect killing) and pesticide (pest killing) that is used in low quantities as a mosquito repellent. To cure you of your hilarious little language hiccup there, an insecticidal is "of or relating to an insecticide." The as you correctly point out the word "-cide" has nothing to do with chemicals so your comment "these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers" makes no sense here whatsoever.

How people are still thinking that DEET is not an insecticide is quite amusing. Try reading the threads and links again, then if you still aren't convinced please share your reasons and supporting information as to why, When you post baseless things like "DEET by it's very nature does not kill insects but acts as a strong repellent." you just sound silly.

On balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases.

Then I suggest you do somemore reading. I think some of these may have been posted here already.

"There is little information available about oral absorption. Severe symptoms have appeared within 30 minutes of ingestion, which implies rapid GI absorption. Ingestions of DEET have been associated with nausea, vomiting, hypotension, encephalopathy, seizure, coma, and ataxia. Ingestion of 50 mL of 100% DEET by a 33 year-old woman resulted in hyptotension, coma, seizures and death. Ingestion of 25 mL of 50% DEET by a one-year-old child resulted in coma and seizures"

http://uuhsc.utah.ed...ox/Vol7_No2.pdf

"DEET is primarily toxic to the CNS, although the mechanism

of action is unknown. Severe toxicity has resulted in children after having

ingested 25mL of a 50% DEET solution, and in adults after having ingesting

50mL of 100% DEET solution.

Clincial Symptoms:

Clinical effects include:

CV- Hypotension and rarely bradycardia;

CNS – Confusion, ataxia, hypertonicity, drowsiness and seizures;

GI – Abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting;

Dermatologic – Rash and contact uticaria (aka hives: raised, often itchy, red welts on the surface of the skin.)"

- http://www.mnpoison....ellent 3-06.pdf

"Intentional Ingestion of DEET

Rarely, people have ingested DEET intentionally to commit suicide, or because of psychological problems (Tenenbein 1987; Fraser et al. 1995). The effects resulting from intentional ingestion are variable, due to the different scenarios in which they occurred. Of the six reported cases of deliberate DEET ingestion, three led to death. In these cases, the amount ingested was 15-50 mL of 47.5% to 95% DEET in bottles. In two cases, bottles of DEET were drunk along with unspecified amounts of alcohol. Health effects included coma, unresponsiveness to pain and other stimuli, and death. In another case, a woman with a history of unipolar-depressive illness ingested a number of pills along with 50 mL of 95% DEET. She arrived at the hospital comatose and pulseless. She had a generalized seizure and died from a generalized bowel infarction (Tenenbein 1987). In another case, a woman with a history of psychological disorders ingested 15-25 mL of 95% DEET. She had a right and left atrial enlargement and diffuse ST-T abnormalities, but returned to normal within 24 hours with no further cardiac abnormalities."

- http://www.atsdr.cdc...th-effects.html

Well done you have provided information on a number of cases where people deliberately ingested DEET and suffered none of the symptoms we saw in this actual incident. Way to prove your point! I repeat my original statement, on balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases. I am sorry you find it so hard to accept the fact that others have differing views to your own but I'm afraid that's life, deal with it, perhaps you are the one that should do a little more research...

However much you care to spin it Deet is an insect repellent not an insecticide. It has been used in pesticides but it itself is a repellent by it's very nature:

DEET was historically believed to work by blocking insect olfactory receptors for 1-octen-3-ol, a volatile substance that is contained in human sweat and breath. The prevailing theory was that DEET effectively "blinds" the insect's senses so that the biting/feeding instinct is not triggered by humans or other animals which produce these chemicals. DEET does not appear to affect the insect's ability to smell carbon dioxide, as had been suspected earlier.^[5]^[6]

However, more recent evidence shows that DEET serves as a true repellent in that mosquitoes intensely dislike the smell of the chemical repellent.^[7] A type of olfactory receptor neuron in special antennal sensilla of mosquitoes that is activated by DEET as well as other known insect repellents such as eucalyptol, linalool, and thujone has been identified. Moreover, in a behavioral test DEET had a strong repellent activity in the absence of body odor attractants such as 1-octen-3-ol, lactic acid, or carbon dioxide. Female and male mosquitoes showed the same response.^[8]^[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET

canuckamuck · September 13, 2012

Long lame argument over semantics. DEET will kill an insect if you get enough of it on them. However this is a very ineffective method of pest control, probably any household cleaner would have the same effect but it is not referred to as an insecticide. DEET is used and sold as a repellent.

The real argument should be about whether or not DEET could be considered as the toxin causing death with these girls. Their symptoms seem to be different in some ways to the proven deaths from DEET. I think it is unlikely they died from DEET, but it is possible that there were other agents involved which caused a deadly combination.

Anyhow, with no info from the Canadian labs, you will not solve this here.

Edited September 13, 2012 by canuckamuck

Ferangled · September 13, 2012

Long lame argument over semantics. DEET will kill an insect if you get enough of it on them. However this is a very ineffective method of pest control, probably any household cleaner would have the same effect but it is not referred to as an insecticide. DEET is used and sold as a repellent.

The real argument should be about whether or not DEET could be considered as the toxin causing death with these girls. Their symptoms seem to be different in some ways to the proven deaths from DEET. I think it is unlikely they died from DEET, but it is possible that there were other agents involved which caused a deadly combination.

Anyhow, with no info from the Canadian labs, you will not solve this here.

The issue I really have with this is that we are left with "DEET" as the convenient culprit, leaving no definitive cause or solution. These are not the only tourists to meet their demise on Phi Phi in suspicious circumstances and in every case there has been no definitive cause found.

If there's one positive that can be taken from this case surely it is to identify the cause and prevent the same happening to future travellers, unfortunately the likelihood of that happening remains distant.

Rocky Sassoon · September 13, 2012

"(think patricide, fratricide etc, these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers but the act of killing ones father or brother)" Hilarious mate! Thanks.

The definition of insect repellent (chosen by you to describe DEET) vs the definition of the word insecticide (which clearly it is as established as by the multitude of links provided in this thread) is quite amusing. Everyone already knows what "repellent" means and everyone knows what "-cide" means. The issue isn't what the words mean, it's which one DEET is. DEET is an insecticide (insect killing) and pesticide (pest killing) that is used in low quantities as a mosquito repellent. To cure you of your hilarious little language hiccup there, an insecticidal is "of or relating to an insecticide." The as you correctly point out the word "-cide" has nothing to do with chemicals so your comment "these are not descriptions of chemicals designed to kill fathers or brothers" makes no sense here whatsoever.

How people are still thinking that DEET is not an insecticide is quite amusing. Try reading the threads and links again, then if you still aren't convinced please share your reasons and supporting information as to why, When you post baseless things like "DEET by it's very nature does not kill insects but acts as a strong repellent." you just sound silly.

On balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases.

Then I suggest you do somemore reading. I think some of these may have been posted here already.

"There is little information available about oral absorption. Severe symptoms have appeared within 30 minutes of ingestion, which implies rapid GI absorption. Ingestions of DEET have been associated with nausea, vomiting, hypotension, encephalopathy, seizure, coma, and ataxia. Ingestion of 50 mL of 100% DEET by a 33 year-old woman resulted in hyptotension, coma, seizures and death. Ingestion of 25 mL of 50% DEET by a one-year-old child resulted in coma and seizures"

http://uuhsc.utah.ed...ox/Vol7_No2.pdf

"DEET is primarily toxic to the CNS, although the mechanism

of action is unknown. Severe toxicity has resulted in children after having

ingested 25mL of a 50% DEET solution, and in adults after having ingesting

50mL of 100% DEET solution.

Clincial Symptoms:

Clinical effects include:

CV- Hypotension and rarely bradycardia;

CNS – Confusion, ataxia, hypertonicity, drowsiness and seizures;

GI – Abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting;

Dermatologic – Rash and contact uticaria (aka hives: raised, often itchy, red welts on the surface of the skin.)"

- http://www.mnpoison....ellent 3-06.pdf

"Intentional Ingestion of DEET

Rarely, people have ingested DEET intentionally to commit suicide, or because of psychological problems (Tenenbein 1987; Fraser et al. 1995). The effects resulting from intentional ingestion are variable, due to the different scenarios in which they occurred. Of the six reported cases of deliberate DEET ingestion, three led to death. In these cases, the amount ingested was 15-50 mL of 47.5% to 95% DEET in bottles. In two cases, bottles of DEET were drunk along with unspecified amounts of alcohol. Health effects included coma, unresponsiveness to pain and other stimuli, and death. In another case, a woman with a history of unipolar-depressive illness ingested a number of pills along with 50 mL of 95% DEET. She arrived at the hospital comatose and pulseless. She had a generalized seizure and died from a generalized bowel infarction (Tenenbein 1987). In another case, a woman with a history of psychological disorders ingested 15-25 mL of 95% DEET. She had a right and left atrial enlargement and diffuse ST-T abnormalities, but returned to normal within 24 hours with no further cardiac abnormalities."

- http://www.atsdr.cdc...th-effects.html

Well done you have provided information on a number of cases where people deliberately ingested DEET and suffered none of the symptoms we saw in this actual incident. Way to prove your point! I repeat my original statement, on balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases. I am sorry you find it so hard to accept the fact that others have differing views to your own but I'm afraid that's life, deal with it, perhaps you are the one that should do a little more research...

However much you care to spin it Deet is an insect repellent not an insecticide. It has been used in pesticides but it itself is a repellent by it's very nature:

DEET was historically believed to work by blocking insect olfactory receptors for 1-octen-3-ol, a volatile substance that is contained in human sweat and breath. The prevailing theory was that DEET effectively "blinds" the insect's senses so that the biting/feeding instinct is not triggered by humans or other animals which produce these chemicals. DEET does not appear to affect the insect's ability to smell carbon dioxide, as had been suspected earlier.^[5]^[6]

However, more recent evidence shows that DEET serves as a true repellent in that mosquitoes intensely dislike the smell of the chemical repellent.^[7] A type of olfactory receptor neuron in special antennal sensilla of mosquitoes that is activated by DEET as well as other known insect repellents such as eucalyptol, linalool, and thujone has been identified. Moreover, in a behavioral test DEET had a strong repellent activity in the absence of body odor attractants such as 1-octen-3-ol, lactic acid, or carbon dioxide. Female and male mosquitoes showed the same response.^[8]^[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET

Are you guys seriously in a heated discussion if the word insecticide could be loosely used to describe DEET? Wow! Or is it more to do with saving face?

Don't think anybody seriously uses DEET to kill insects, but it's reknown as one of the best insect repellants. Insect repellants are classified as pesticides, too. Even bloody citronella gets called a (bio)pesticide. OK, let's find out the LD50 of citronella for moskitos and get ready for a proper handbag fight!

What was the topic all about again?

Ferangled · September 13, 2012

Are you guys seriously in a heated discussion if the word insecticide could be loosely used to describe DEET? Wow! Or is it more to do with saving face?

Don't think anybody seriously uses DEET to kill insects, but it's reknown as one of the best insect repellants. Insect repellants are classified as pesticides, too. Even bloody citronella gets called a (bio)pesticide. OK, let's find out the LD50 of citronella for moskitos and get ready for a proper handbag fight!

What was the topic all about again?

Aye, I should have left well alone! I joined this exchange halfway through and didn't realise the lengths some will go to in "saving face"... my actual point was I don't believe that DEET is solely responsible for these deaths, the repellent/ insecticide debate was circumstantial yer honour, I thought it was fairly common knowledge what it was used for.

Any relation to Vidal? About time I got a haircut...

simple1 · September 13, 2012

it's gone silent we all know that. btw,phi phi = fi fi island . when can Thai People standardize the English version of Thai like Kanji and PinYin? F******ck.

Really? It's pronounced Pee Pee by every Thai and Farang I know, not Fi Fi.... much like Phuket is pronounced Poo-Ket and not Fuk-et...

true but there are many people who have never been here before won't know this 2 places.(pronounce). and how many people can say "Suvarnabhumi"
correctly for the 1st time? that's my point.

I get where you are going, personally I pronounce it Sa - Wanna - Poom... It may not be correct but it works with the taxi drivers!

The thing is I don't see that it is Thailand's innate responsibility to ensure that all foreigners can pronounce Thai words correctly... how do you convey all the Thai tonal nuances in phonetic English? Surely it's more down to the guide books, phrase books etcs to conduct proper research and correctly lay out the pronunciation of Thai words in English?

It's not even that easy with English itself, try explaining to a non-native English speaker why "yacht" is pronounced "yot", "right" = "rite", "wrist" = "rist" etc etc etc

Or the same sound having different meanings e.g. break versus brake

NomadJoe · September 13, 2012

Well done you have provided information on a number of cases where people deliberately ingested DEET and suffered none of the symptoms we saw in this actual incident. Way to prove your point!

You are totally lost as always. You said "the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases." to which I posted the above information directly showing that it can, and in fact has caused deaths previously. You did actually read the post, right? You obviously have no medical training or you wouldn't have used the word "symptoms" because a symptom is something experienced by the patient, not observed. The only people that know what the symptoms were are dead so we will never know what they experienced. Signs, however, we do have. Signs are something observed in the patient. If you had followed the story before posting about it you would have seen that several signs do fit DEET ingestion, even in small amounts; vomiting, bloody diarrhea, rash, uticaria (raised red welts), blue lips and fingernails and, of course, death. With those signs, it is almost certain that they also experienced some of the symptoms mentioned in previous documented cases where accurate illness histories were able to be obtained: hypotension, bradycardia, confusion, ataxia, hypertonicity, drowsiness, abdominal pain, coma, and nausea.

I repeat my original statement, on balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases. I am sorry you find it so hard to accept the fact that others have differing views to your own but I'm afraid that's life, deal with it, perhaps you are the one that should do a little more research...

I have absolutely no problem with people having "other views." In fact I find it quite amusing that some people can hold on to a "veiw" even when faced with insurmountable evidence to the contrary, just as you have.

DEET was historically believed to work by blocking insect olfactory receptors for 1-octen-3-ol, a volatile substance that is contained in human sweat and breath. The prevailing theory was that DEET effectively "blinds" the insect's senses so that the biting/feeding instinct is not triggered by humans or other animals which produce these chemicals. DEET does not appear to affect the insect's ability to smell carbon dioxide, as had been suspected earlier.^[5]^[6]

However, more recent evidence shows that DEET serves as a true repellent in that mosquitoes intensely dislike the smell of the chemical repellent.^[7] A type of olfactory receptor neuron in special antennal sensilla of mosquitoes that is activated by DEET as well as other known insect repellents such as eucalyptol, linalool, and thujone has been identified. Moreover, in a behavioral test DEET had a strong repellent activity in the absence of body odor attractants such as 1-octen-3-ol, lactic acid, or carbon dioxide. Female and male mosquitoes showed the same response.^[8]^[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET

I guess you posted this to try to prove that DEET is not also an insecticide? And even after saying that is was just symantics and a face saving exercise?

From your own Wiki link:

"It was originally tested as a pesticide on farm fields,"

"DEET has been found to inhibit the activity of a central nervous system enzyme, acetylcholinesterase, in both insects and mammals.^[20] This enzyme is involved in the hydrolysis of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, thus playing a role in the function of the neurons which control muscles. Because of this property, many insecticides are used to block acetylcholinesterase, which leads to an excessive accumulation of acetylcholine at the synaptic cleft, causing neuromuscular paralysis and death by asphyxiation"

If incecticide/not insectidice issue is so unimportant, then why do people feel the need to go to the trouble of posting thier opinion that it isn't an insecticide?

More about face saving please. I liked that bit.

Soutpeel · September 13, 2012

Well done you have provided information on a number of cases where people deliberately ingested DEET and suffered none of the symptoms we saw in this actual incident. Way to prove your point!

You obviously have no medical training or you wouldn't have used the word "symptoms" because a symptom is something experienced by the patient, not observed.

And where did you do your medical, toxicology, organic chemistry, coroners, private investigators and CIA training then ?

NomadJoe · September 13, 2012

You obviously have no medical training or you wouldn't have used the word "symptoms" because a symptom is something experienced by the patient, not observed.

And where did you do your medical, toxicology, organic chemistry, coroners, private investigators and CIA training then ?

Signs vs Symptoms is taught in basic CPR/1st aid.

Edited September 13, 2012 by NomadJoe

Rocky Sassoon · September 13, 2012

You obviously have no medical training or you wouldn't have used the word "symptoms" because a symptom is something experienced by the patient, not observed.

And where did you do your medical, toxicology, organic chemistry, coroners, private investigators and CIA training then ?

Signs vs Symptoms is taught in basic CPR/1st aid.

That's correct and health care professionals as well as medical literature often do not make such a black and white distiction at all. Ever heard the term objective symptom used instead of sign?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/symptom

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/symptom

And yeah, DEET is generally not classed as an insecticide. There were trials to use it as a pesticide, which would not have made it an insecticide either and calling it a pesticide would be much less wrong than calling it an insecticide. If someone would regularily drown mossies in that shit or somehow else OD tehm with it, then he would be probably crazy, but could say he is using it as an insecticide. Same if he would do the same stunt with citronella, which is not an insecticide either.

Back to the topic, I do not buy the theory that DEET poisening caused killed them either. I suppose a mix of DEET and a few other substances is much more likely. Some of them could have been consumed voluntarily (drinks, pills), possibly without reading up on all ingredients and possible side effects (never received much of an information sheet with party drugs myself), other substanced could have found into their bodies by accident (food, fumes). If it was a combo of a party drug cocktail and overeager use of pesticides in their room, it would not really make solving the case any easier at all. Then there may also still be the possibility of other drugs showing up as a positive for DEET, which I do not know much about apart from heresay and am not eager trying to become an instant expert in the field by raping Google either. Just saying...

shafty · September 13, 2012

it's gone silent we all know that. btw,phi phi = fi fi island . when can Thai People standardize the English version of Thai like Kanji and PinYin? F******ck.

Really? It's pronounced Pee Pee by every Thai and Farang I know, not Fi Fi.... much like Phuket is pronounced Poo-Ket and not Fuk-et...

The largest group of people in the world pronounce Phuket as Fuket for your information. So you are wrong.

Is that a fact?

NomadJoe · September 13, 2012

And where did you do your medical, toxicology, organic chemistry, coroners, private investigators and CIA training then ?

Signs vs Symptoms is taught in basic CPR/1st aid.

That's correct and health care professionals as well as medical literature often do not make such a black and white distiction at all. Ever heard the term objective symptom used instead of sign?

http://dictionary.re...browse/symptom

http://medical-dicti...ary.com/symptom

An objective symptom is just another way to say sign.

Dictionary.com is not a valid medical reference.

From your medical dictionary link:

symptom /symp·tom/ (simp´tom) any subjective evidence of disease or of a patient's condition, i.e., such evidence as perceived by the patient; a change in a patient's condition indicative of some bodily or mental state.

From medical news today:

"In medicine a symptom is generally subjective while a sign is objective. Any objective evidence of a disease, such as blood in the stool, a skin rash, is a sign - it can be recognized by the doctor, nurse, family members and the patient. However, stomachache, lower-back pain, fatigue, for example, can only be detected or sensed by the patient - others only know about it if the patient tells them."

http://www.medicalne...cles/161858.php

"A sign is objective evidence of disease; it is something that can be seen.

You can see the signs in a patient (either by eye or with medical quipment or labs) polyuria, polydipsia and polyphagia are signs of diabetes.

A symptom is subjective evidence of disease; it is a feeling people other than the patient cannot see/feel it. A headache is a symptom. Chest pain could be a symptom of an MI"

"mosby's medical, nursing, & allied health dictionary, 6th edition explains it the best and most concisely:

sign - an objective finding as perceived by an examiner. . .many signs accompany symptoms
symptom - a subjective indication of a disease or a change in condition as perceived by the patient. . .many symptoms are accompanied by objective signs. . .some symptoms may be objectively confirmed

per taber's cyclopedic medical dictionary, 18th edition. .

sign - any objective evidence or manifestation of an illness or disordered function of the body. signs are more or less definitive and obvious apart from the patient's impressions, in contrast to symptoms which are subjective
symptom - any perceptible change in the body or its functions that indicates disease or the kind or phases of disease. symptoms may be classified as objective, subjective, cardinal, and, sometimes, constitutional. however, another classification considers all symptoms s being subjective, with objective indications being called signs.

http://allnurses.com...oms-342501.html

And yeah, DEET is generally not classed as an insecticide. ...

That issue has been put to bed on this and other threads. Semantics aside, the important thing is there is clear and meaningful evidence that DEET when ingested can create the same signs (or "objective symptoms" if you must) as were reported here, including death. I agree though, DEET obviously wasn't ingested alone. They were clearly mixing it with other stuff.

Edited September 13, 2012 by NomadJoe

ttelise · September 13, 2012

Signs vs Symptoms is taught in basic CPR/1st aid.

That's correct and health care professionals as well as medical literature often do not make such a black and white distiction at all. Ever heard the term objective symptom used instead of sign?

http://dictionary.re...browse/symptom

http://medical-dicti...ary.com/symptom

An objective symptom is just another way to say sign.

Dictionary.com is not a valid medical reference.

From your medical dictionary link:

symptom /symp·tom/ (simp´tom) any subjective evidence of disease or of a patient's condition, i.e., such evidence as perceived by the patient; a change in a patient's condition indicative of some bodily or mental state.

From medical news today:

"In medicine a symptom is generally subjective while a sign is objective. Any objective evidence of a disease, such as blood in the stool, a skin rash, is a sign - it can be recognized by the doctor, nurse, family members and the patient. However, stomachache, lower-back pain, fatigue, for example, can only be detected or sensed by the patient - others only know about it if the patient tells them."

http://www.medicalne...cles/161858.php

"A sign is objective evidence of disease; it is something that can be seen.

You can see the signs in a patient (either by eye or with medical quipment or labs) polyuria, polydipsia and polyphagia are signs of diabetes.

A symptom is subjective evidence of disease; it is a feeling people other than the patient cannot see/feel it. A headache is a symptom. Chest pain could be a symptom of an MI"

"mosby's medical, nursing, & allied health dictionary, 6th edition explains it the best and most concisely:

sign - an objective finding as perceived by an examiner. . .many signs accompany symptoms

symptom - a subjective indication of a disease or a change in condition as perceived by the patient. . .many symptoms are accompanied by objective signs. . .some symptoms may be objectively confirmed

per taber's cyclopedic medical dictionary, 18th edition. .

sign - any objective evidence or manifestation of an illness or disordered function of the body. signs are more or less definitive and obvious apart from the patient's impressions, in contrast to symptoms which are subjective

symptom - any perceptible change in the body or its functions that indicates disease or the kind or phases of disease. symptoms may be classified as objective, subjective, cardinal, and, sometimes, constitutional. however, another classification considers all symptoms s being subjective, with objective indications being called signs.

http://allnurses.com...oms-342501.html

And yeah, DEET is generally not classed as an insecticide. ...

That issue has been put to bed on this and other threads. Semantics aside, the important thing is there is clear and meaningful evidence that DEET when ingested can create the same signs (or "objective symptoms" if you must) as were reported here, including death. I agree though, DEET obviously wasn't ingested alone. They were clearly mixing it with other stuff.

I know I will regret this one, but health care workers general refer to the patient as presenting. Patient presented with high fever, malaise, and general lethargy.

Rocky Sassoon · September 13, 2012

Signs vs Symptoms is taught in basic CPR/1st aid.

That's correct and health care professionals as well as medical literature often do not make such a black and white distiction at all. Ever heard the term objective symptom used instead of sign?

http://dictionary.re...browse/symptom

http://medical-dicti...ary.com/symptom

An objective symptom is just another way to say sign.

Dictionary.com is not a valid medical reference.

From your medical dictionary link:

symptom /symp·tom/ (simp´tom) any subjective evidence of disease or of a patient's condition, i.e., such evidence as perceived by the patient; a change in a patient's condition indicative of some bodily or mental state.

From medical news today:

"In medicine a symptom is generally subjective while a sign is objective. Any objective evidence of a disease, such as blood in the stool, a skin rash, is a sign - it can be recognized by the doctor, nurse, family members and the patient. However, stomachache, lower-back pain, fatigue, for example, can only be detected or sensed by the patient - others only know about it if the patient tells them."

http://www.medicalne...cles/161858.php

"A sign is objective evidence of disease; it is something that can be seen.

You can see the signs in a patient (either by eye or with medical quipment or labs) polyuria, polydipsia and polyphagia are signs of diabetes.

A symptom is subjective evidence of disease; it is a feeling people other than the patient cannot see/feel it. A headache is a symptom. Chest pain could be a symptom of an MI"

"mosby's medical, nursing, & allied health dictionary, 6th edition explains it the best and most concisely:

sign - an objective finding as perceived by an examiner. . .many signs accompany symptoms

symptom - a subjective indication of a disease or a change in condition as perceived by the patient. . .many symptoms are accompanied by objective signs. . .some symptoms may be objectively confirmed

per taber's cyclopedic medical dictionary, 18th edition. .

sign - any objective evidence or manifestation of an illness or disordered function of the body. signs are more or less definitive and obvious apart from the patient's impressions, in contrast to symptoms which are subjective

symptom - any perceptible change in the body or its functions that indicates disease or the kind or phases of disease. symptoms may be classified as objective, subjective, cardinal, and, sometimes, constitutional. however, another classification considers all symptoms s being subjective, with objective indications being called signs.

http://allnurses.com...oms-342501.html

And yeah, DEET is generally not classed as an insecticide. ...

That issue has been put to bed on this and other threads. Semantics aside, the important thing is there is clear and meaningful evidence that DEET when ingested can create the same signs (or "objective symptoms" if you must) as were reported here, including death. I agree though, DEET obviously wasn't ingested alone. They were clearly mixing it with other stuff.

Signs and symptoms are sometimes overlapping and there is no universally accepted definition either. Usually it is forgiveable to call any sign that could be also be a symptom as a symptom. Bleading, rash, distended abdomen, shortness of breath etc. could all always be both sign and a symptom. If any of those were reported by the patient, but already resolved, they would not really be a symptom any more, would they? Of course there are signs that would usually not be called symptoms by health care professionals. You may find that those individuals are more than often busy with other stuff, than arguing if you may have applied the wrong terminology somewhere along the lines.

Doc Hollywood: "Dr. Zhivago, you medical record say patient symptom include positive Hoffmann's sign! How can be positive Hoffmann's sign? Is present or absent and is not symptom, is sign like name say so! What kind of doctor are you? You even have basic CPR training?"

Dr. Zhivago: "Doc Hollywood - get a life!"

OK, on the DEET issue it clear now that someone mixed it with something else then? I thought that was mere speculation based on a leak at a lab in Bangkok and in fact nothing was proven. I think someone mentioned that lab tests could come back possitive for DEET, when in fact someone had ingested and metabolized other substances, which may be correct or not? Has such a scenario been excluded yet?

canuckamuck · September 14, 2012

Yes it is somewhat tedious that someone decided to include the silent haw heeb as the letter H after the letter P in the transliteration of many Thai words. As that creates an entirely different phonetic than the Thai version. I also dislike all of the additional letter R's that dropped in aw sounds. And why do the they make W's into V's as in Suvarnabhumi and sukumvit when there is no V sound in Thai. Notice Suvarnabhumi also has the useless R added even though it is not pronounced.

Is this off topic?

Edited September 14, 2012 by canuckamuck

theblether · September 14, 2012

I would say it's the most surreal wander of topic I've ever seen on TV........from dead sisters to silent H's.

Surreal.

Soutpeel · September 14, 2012

I would say it's the most surreal wander of topic I've ever seen on TV........from dead sisters to silent H's.

Surreal.

But I really love the battle of the medical experts with their cut and pastes from the internet in an attempt to show their knowlege of all things medical, English and toxicology...

Ferangled · September 14, 2012

Well done you have provided information on a number of cases where people deliberately ingested DEET and suffered none of the symptoms we saw in this actual incident. Way to prove your point!

You are totally lost as always. You said "the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases." to which I posted the above information directly showing that it can, and in fact has caused deaths previously. You did actually read the post, right? You obviously have no medical training or you wouldn't have used the word "symptoms" because a symptom is something experienced by the patient, not observed. The only people that know what the symptoms were are dead so we will never know what they experienced. Signs, however, we do have. Signs are something observed in the patient. If you had followed the story before posting about it you would have seen that several signs do fit DEET ingestion, even in small amounts; vomiting, bloody diarrhea, rash, uticaria (raised red welts), blue lips and fingernails and, of course, death. With those signs, it is almost certain that they also experienced some of the symptoms mentioned in previous documented cases where accurate illness histories were able to be obtained: hypotension, bradycardia, confusion, ataxia, hypertonicity, drowsiness, abdominal pain, coma, and nausea.

I repeat my original statement, on balance, the more I read up on DEET the less likely it seems that DEET would be the cause of death in these cases. I am sorry you find it so hard to accept the fact that others have differing views to your own but I'm afraid that's life, deal with it, perhaps you are the one that should do a little more research...

I have absolutely no problem with people having "other views." In fact I find it quite amusing that some people can hold on to a "veiw" even when faced with insurmountable evidence to the contrary, just as you have.

DEET was historically believed to work by blocking insect olfactory receptors for 1-octen-3-ol, a volatile substance that is contained in human sweat and breath. The prevailing theory was that DEET effectively "blinds" the insect's senses so that the biting/feeding instinct is not triggered by humans or other animals which produce these chemicals. DEET does not appear to affect the insect's ability to smell carbon dioxide, as had been suspected earlier.^[5]^[6]

However, more recent evidence shows that DEET serves as a true repellent in that mosquitoes intensely dislike the smell of the chemical repellent.^[7] A type of olfactory receptor neuron in special antennal sensilla of mosquitoes that is activated by DEET as well as other known insect repellents such as eucalyptol, linalool, and thujone has been identified. Moreover, in a behavioral test DEET had a strong repellent activity in the absence of body odor attractants such as 1-octen-3-ol, lactic acid, or carbon dioxide. Female and male mosquitoes showed the same response.^[8]^[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET

I guess you posted this to try to prove that DEET is not also an insecticide? And even after saying that is was just symantics and a face saving exercise?

From your own Wiki link:

"It was originally tested as a pesticide on farm fields,"

"DEET has been found to inhibit the activity of a central nervous system enzyme, acetylcholinesterase, in both insects and mammals.^[20] This enzyme is involved in the hydrolysis of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, thus playing a role in the function of the neurons which control muscles. Because of this property, many insecticides are used to block acetylcholinesterase, which leads to an excessive accumulation of acetylcholine at the synaptic cleft, causing neuromuscular paralysis and death by asphyxiation"

If incecticide/not insectidice issue is so unimportant, then why do people feel the need to go to the trouble of posting thier opinion that it isn't an insecticide?

More about face saving please. I liked that bit.

My addled and argumentative friend, just drop it, for the sake of your own sanity! I suggest rather than arguing over the appropriate use of words you should take a break, get out for some fresh air and gain a sense of perspective on life.

You say potatoes I say potatoes as they say, get over it. DEET is an insect repellent and my conclusions as to the likelihood of it being the sole cause of these tragic deaths remain unchanged by your overly dramatic rantings.

I apologise if I have offended you by not conforming to your views but suggest you really need to stop raging at anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with you.

mommysboy · September 14, 2012

I would say it's the most surreal wander of topic I've ever seen on TV........from dead sisters to silent H's.

Surreal.

I agree, 2 people dies horribly in suspicious circumstances.

Whatever the cause of death, it is unlikely to be poor spelling, wrong word definition, phonetic error, or semantics.

jimbeam1 · September 14, 2012

I would say it's the most surreal wander of topic I've ever seen on TV........from dead sisters to silent H's.

Surreal.

But I really love the battle of the medical experts with their cut and pastes from the internet in an attempt to show their knowlege of all things medical, English and toxicology...

Oi says thee anser lois in thee soile??

NomadJoe · September 14, 2012

My addled and argumentative friend, just drop it, for the sake of your own sanity! I suggest rather than arguing over the appropriate use of words you should take a break, get out for some fresh air and gain a sense of perspective on life.

You say potatoes I say potatoes as they say, get over it. DEET is an insect repellent and my conclusions as to the likelihood of it being the sole cause of these tragic deaths remain unchanged by your overly dramatic rantings.

I apologise if I have offended you by not conforming to your views but suggest you really need to stop raging at anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with you.

Peoples ignorance does not offend me, it entertains me. I have not raged at anyone. I only seem argumentative to you because I have shown your comments to be inaccurate.

Again with the "if you can't accept others views" line. You cannot claim you have a "view" that is contrary to established facts unless you are the expert in the field and are challenging them, which none of us are. I am not a toxicologist nor CIA or whatever other silly gibberish soutpeel was saying, but you don't need to be. Due to my background I do have an understanding of DEET as well as emergency medicine. I haven't "raped google" as one put it but merely posted supporting evidence of what I already knew to be true which was easily found with a quick search, that's all. You may have the "view" that the moon is made of cheese, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't. I accept there are people out there that believe in strange things and no amount of education or proof will change their minds. That is normal for some people. The problem I have here is the media/Thailand are once again getting bashed in this forum over a perceived incompetence when using the word "insecticide" to describe DEET, the active ingredient in many mosquito repellents. Those posters have long checked out of this thread realizing there error. There is plenty of reasons to bash the media/Thailand, I do it all the time, but this isn't one of them. Now as usual when the debate has ended the conversation turns to the conversation itself, and comes the suggestion to "get over it" and accusations of being "overly dramatic." even an allusion to going insane. This always happens in these threads and is the normal tactic when it's realized that the argument has been lost. I humbly accept your acquiescence and am glad I could educate you.

And for those like soutpeel and others, if discussing and debating details that may seem insignificant to you bothers you, please feel free to bugger off and not read the thread. No one is forcing you to read it. I personally find it interesting both from a medical perspective and a human perspective. People comment from there hip here a lot and occasionally the idiotic comments by some are just too much and so I respond, particularly if it is on a topic I am familiar with. And usually I learn a thing or too in the process. What's the harm in that.

IsaanUSA · October 1, 2012

A similar thing recently happened to two girls over in Vietnam.

PoodMaiDai · October 1, 2012

Jeez, you guys have obviously not been around much. Adding insecticide to give an extra "kick" to homemade alcohol is a rampant practice in Southeast Asia.

It's so bad in Cambodia (let's not even talk about India!!) that I refuse to drink the local hooch there. Dozens of people go blind and die in Cambodia each year.

It's a bit less of a problem in Thailand--as far as people going blind and dying--but the practice is still widespread. It is regularly added to yaa dong, sold on almost every soi in Bangkok. I learned the hard way about 8 years ago only to drink yaa dong at a vendor for which somebody can vouch for the purity of the product: once I inadvertently drank a few shots of yaa dong that was laced with insecticide...I spent the next day in bed with a pounding headache, and I luckily had someone to take care of me who knew the score. And I had no worse symptoms than that. From that time on I only drink yaa dong at vendors for whom friends attest to the quality of the product.

Anyway, insecticide in liquor is nothing new in Thailand.

No pity for idiots who do such things.

Kerryd · October 11, 2012

Sisters' deaths in Thailand not from DEET, Quebec coroner says.

By CBC News, cbc.ca, Updated: October-10-12 8:19 PM

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/sisters-deaths-in-thailand-not-from-deet-quebec-coroner-says

A Quebec coroner is challenging the autopsy findings of Thai officials that ruled two Quebec sisters found dead in their hotel room in June were accidentally poisoned.

Coroner Renée Roussel told Radio-Canada the concentration of the chemical DEET in the sisters' systems wasn't enough to be fatal. That contradicts the conclusion of Thai authorities, who performed post-mortems on the bodies of Noémi Bélanger, 25, and Audrey Bélanger, 20, shortly after the sisters were found on June 15 by hotel staff.

A pathologist determined the women likely ingested DEET, a principal ingredient in bug repellant, in a euphoria-inducing cocktail that is popular among youth in Thailand.

DEET levels not fatal

Dr. René Blais of Quebec's poison control centre said the DEET concentration reported by the Thai pathologist doesn't correspond to a concentration that would be toxic, "let alone a concentration that would be fatal."

It's still unclear what caused their deaths if it wasn't DEET poisoning.

Secondary autopsies were conducted in Montreal, but the results haven't been released.

Thai investigators haven't closed the case. They submitted their investigation report to the Canadian Embassy in Thailand without making the findings public.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/sisters-deaths-in-thailand-not-from-deet-quebec-coroner-says

Seems to be a fair bit of contradiction here. We noted in previous threads that it was (almost) impossible to have ingested enough DEET to be fatal, especially if the source was "mosquito coils" as had been suggested in an earlier story.

There also seems to be some contradiction between what the Thai police have said locally and what the Canadian government has been told.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Kerryd

atsiii · October 11, 2012

http://www.upiasia.com/Top-News/2012/10/10/Coroner-refutes-DEET-killed-Canada-sisters/UPI-31731349916979/

Coroner refutes DEET killed Canada sisters

Coroner Renee Roussel told Radio-Canada the concentration of the chemical DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) found in the bodies of Noemi Belanger, 25, and Audrey Belanger, 20, both of Pohenegamook, Quebec, was not high enough to be fatal, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. reported.

Likewise, Dr. Rene Blais of Quebec's poison control center said the amount of DEET found wasn't high enough to be toxic, "let alone a concentration that would be fatal," the CBC said.

ttelise · October 11, 2012

You gotta like how Thai authorities say they aren't making their findings public, but yet they indirectly release some BS face saving crap about DEET in an inentional effort to make everyone believe the girls died ingesting too much bug repellent trying to get high. That's worse than violating their privacy.

Soutpeel · October 11, 2012

You gotta like how Thai authorities say they aren't making their findings public, but yet they indirectly release some BS face saving crap about DEET in an inentional effort to make everyone believe the girls died ingesting too much bug repellent trying to get high. That's worse than violating their privacy.

This should all get interesting now...Coroner's at dawn me thinks...

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