Wanted: Non Dual Teacher

[dlarsenn]

karl renz defines realization: the absence of a tendency of avoidance. the SPONTANIOUS cognition to be prior to nothing and all.

in 2008 I was sitting at a stop light on the way to work and it appeared! no doer. no one has ever accomplished anything. there are no good guys, no bad guys.there is no one here - the world is empty. it was in an instant. a little shake of the head. there was no chooser of all the reading, walking and contemplation. like toole says: one has got to want it more then a drowning man wants air.

its like the mind gives up. like a gear pops and now there is just spinning.

belsekar defines realization as the ultimate understanding that the human being is just a 3 dimesional object in the field with all other objects. again, no doer. present the same situation to 3 different people and you get three different responses: one may be sad, another angry, and the 3rd afraid. there is no choice in the reaction or following behavior. each human being is uniquely programed.

if it said there is free will, reveal the source. can't.

i am not here to agree and say ok, you can do it! you can overcome. all the guys i read that lead to the 'leap' challenged such statements.

Edited October 9, 2012 by dlarsenn

[Several]

So what did you do when the light turned green? The coloured lights are just that. No meaning, just photons. Did you go to work, or abandon routine activity as futile? Was it perhaps momentary realisation that required reinforcement through the words and quotes of others?

I found a door to which there was no key,

A veil past which I could not see,

Some talk a little while of me and thee, it seemed,

And then no more of thee or me.

Another quote from Omar Khayyam. But is it about duality or death? I'm not having a go at you, friend. Just saying don't rest on your laurels. What you post makes me think which is good. But thats dualistic thinking caused by the ideas of others.

Here is a non dual statement. It is time for breakfast.

[Jawnie]

As can be seen from this discussion, there's a lot to be said about this topic. With regard to your search for a non-dual teacher, what that means to me is that you are looking for a teacher in whom you can trust to guide your practice in a authentic direction. Of course, it will also need to be someone you have an affinity for. Since you are in Thailand, your options are somewhat limited because Thailand is a Theravada Buddhist country, which leaves out Mahayana and Vajrayana schools. Very few Mahayana teachers are available in Thailand, and literally no Vajrayana teachers, although some Vajrayana teachers visit Thailand from time to time.

With regard to the discussion on non-duality, it seems it has run the typical direction of mixing orientations. That is to say, some Buddhist sources discuss what are known as The Two Truths: the truth of ultimate reality and the truth of relative reality. These often get mixed up in discussions such as this. Ultimate truth is that there are no beings, no universes, that we are already fully enlightened Buddhas, that there is no karma or obscurations to purify, no beings to save, etc. Relative truth is the world as we experience it, including the Buddha dharma. Relative truth is where things, beings, worlds, even Buddhist teachers and the Buddhist path exist. Relative truth says there is suffering, it has a cause, and that there is a path out of suffering. Ultimate truth says not even the path to enlightenment exists, that we are already enlightened, but we, fictitious beings, are so ensnared in our obscurations, we don't realize that even our obscurations don't really exist, etc.

There are many different levels and paths laid out in Tantric Buddhism (which Theravadins don't accept), each one progressively more sophisticated. The last and most advanced, the Ati yoga of Dzogchen, is described as not being a path, or a technique, or any thing like even the other, highly sophisticated tantric paths. The highest 'path' is not a path because it takes one, finally, to Buddhahood and the realization of Ultimate truth that everything before it never existed.

So, it is because Ultimate and Relative truths get mixed together that these discussions are typically problematic.

[Several]

Yep. Duelistic.

[dlarsenn]

go on a walk and judge nothing. see how long that lasts

[Several]

Never said I could, only know I should.

[huli]

go on a walk and judge nothing. see how long that lasts

It won't last long for most of us, that's for sure. But it is not unusual to have moments where we are not judging. When thought stops, in between thoughts so to speak, there is a bare awareness where the self is essentially forgotten. I would postulate this is non-dualistic consciousness, or something similar. The key factors are the cessation of thought and an active awareness.

[weary]

go on a walk and judge nothing. see how long that lasts

Good advice, you have got to start somewhere. With practice, like most things, it becomes easier.

[sabaijai]

There are many different levels and paths laid out in Tantric Buddhism (which Theravadins don't accept), each one progressively more sophisticated. The last and most advanced, the Ati yoga of Dzogchen, is described as not being a path, or a technique, or any thing like even the other, highly sophisticated tantric paths. The highest 'path' is not a path because it takes one, finally, to Buddhahood and the realization of Ultimate truth that everything before it never existed.

There is a great deal of interest in Dzogchen among some Theravada practitioners, mostly Western ones. Several of the meditation teachers involved with IMS/Spirit Rock/etc have attended and even hosted Dzogchen retreats. The 'pointing out' in Dzogchen seems very similar to vipassana in some ways.

From the Aj Amaro interview that camerata posted a link to in another thread:

What do people need that the forest tradition has? The teachings on emptiness. On non-abiding. I went on a retreat with a Tibetan rinpoche and had read a few books on Dzogchen, and I thought, "This is our song." Liberation through seeing with naked awareness. That teaching has been missing from some of the schools of meditation, like the vipassana movement, where it's almost as if the teaching is about trying to neutralize the senses, getting a degree of concentration and focus and looking upon the senses as the enemy. That's really exalting states of concentration where everything disappears. I think a lot of people have gotten weary of that—you arrive at this morbio inferiori and say, "This is it? This big empty blank space?" Like being shut in an empty refrigerator—nothing there, but it's pretty cold. So people have been turning to these other traditions to pull themselves back to that insight: The nature of mind is intrinsically pure, and then defilements come and obscure it. But there is nothing to perfect, and there's no one to perfect it. Just stop being confused. Be quiet. Wake up. And there it is. That's the national anthem of the forest monks of Thailand.

[troysantos]

Son of a gun. I guess I didn't click "Follow this topic" after posting it and only came back to see what responses there were once. Boy, so there's been activity here. Glad to see that even in Theravada land there is interest in non-duality teachings. I'll respond to things as I remember, and will probably miss a few things that I thought would be good to respond to.

I do realize that this is not the ideal place for non-dual teachers. But, that's okay. I'm in Ayuthaya now, visiting a friend, who is also very interested in this stuff. He's overcome that which doesn't need to be overcome! Good to talk with him as there is nobody that I know of in the Asoke group who I can talk with like this. He's Thai.

I'm really interested in setting up a Zen center, where I'd invite teachers to come and teach. Zen as well as other non-dual teachings, as well as other religions and spiritual teachings. Like in the US, other things would have to be offered, say classes on this or that, in order to generate some income. This is really just a dream, as I have no experience with starting up or running a business of any sort. Yet, I am drawn to this dream more and more.

I agree that lots of intentional thinking about all this is useless. Some degree of intentional thinking is useful, I think.

I was thinking that dlarsenn's comment about intending to overcome nothing was intended to spark a desire to know. One thing I've long liked about Zen teachings, and other non-dual teachings, is just this - the the push, pull, tug, nudge, or perhaps a bashing, intended to inspire the seeker to continue the Great Search, or, to instantly wake up the seeker. Adyashanti has a talk entitled, "There is no seeker"! All this seemingly paradoxical stuff makes me shiver and tingle, and there's a sensation that I don't know how to describe.

Ken Wilber says, as does Adyashanti, that searching obscures the fact that there is no seeker, nothing to be gotten. So, stop seeking. Adyashanti also says that if it were that simple, that there is no sense in practice, then he'd say just sit on the couch, crack a beer, and it'll happen or it won't. But he says that there is value in practice. I haven't read that much of Wilber's work, but I saw in someone's post here that he does recommend practices. Of course he would. There has to be something that we do in order to hasten this thing.

One thing I like to keep in mind is to not verify the truth of all this stuff, but to verify if it's all true. I do believe that we can convince ourselves of things that we believe in. We believe, and one day we go, "Ahah ... so it is true!" I prefer to start with neutrality. But, honestly, I do incline to believe that there is something that I'm not aware of, and if I were to realize it, the affect would be awesome.

Sorry, but I forget who said that if we're not aware that we're Buddhas, then we're not yet enlightened. Something like this. Like the statement that there is nothing to overcome, I can see this comment in the same way. Intended to stimulate the search. Even if that's not the intention, we can use it in that way!

I lived at a Zen center in Korea for two and a half years, and practiced there for three years. The hwadu practice was to ask continually, over and over, "What is...?" I really didn't get into the question very deeply, but it makes so much sense to me to ask this question. Like Tolle and others say, you gotta want it more than anything. But my teacher in Korea said that it's not important to have it be all consuming, as some people go beserko.

I recently found a Zen book in Thai. Haven't yet finished reading it but after I do finish it, I'll call the author and talk. He's in Khon Kaen. He donated the book to the Santi Asoke library in Bangkok, and somehow it wound up in the Asoke library in Ubon! He wrote his name, address, and phone number in the book! Thanks guy!

There are a few phrases in the poem by the third patriarch that I like a lot. Particularly the opening lines, that say something like the path is not hard for those who do not take sides? Really. I have to agree that it's not hard to practice these practices, whether Buddhist or Zen. Just like the thing about "trying" to pick up a pencil. Nothing to try - you just do it or you don't. Nothing hard about it. It seems hard though because we're not used to, for instance, taking a walk and judging nothing for but a few moments here and there. Or, in not discriminating between the various things we perceive with our senses. Or, while meditating (or doing anything for that matter), to just let everything be as it seems to be. It's not that these things are hard, is it? I don't care to be pedantic, but I do like to be clear within myself about things that seem important. So, I don't want to say that this or that is hard if it seems that that's not the case.

Several ... your name ... ? ... ! Surely you didn't register with this name just for topics on non-duality!