Commission Says 'men In Black' May Have Got Cooperation From Red Shirts

[webfact]

TRCT FINAL REPORT

Both sides blamed for violence

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Commission says 'men in black' may have got cooperation from red shirts

BANGKOK: -- The long-awaited final report from the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand (TRCT) on the 2010 crackdown, which was obtained in advance by The Nation, shows that the so-called "men in black" had received cooperation from red-shirt guards. It also said that security officers eventually used live bullets, deployed snipers and were likely responsible for the six deaths at Wat Pathumwanaram on May 19, 2010.

The 515-page report appeared to hold both sides responsible for the 90-plus deaths and said the clashes on April 10, 2010, where more than 20 people were killed including Army Colonel Romklao Thuwatham, were seminal in creating a climate of animosity between the red shirts and the Army. The report is scheduled to be made public next week.

The men in black and April 10, 2010

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

The TRCT explained that after the night of April 10, 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) had started using the term "terrorist" and had permitted security officials to use live bullets for self-defence. Abhisit Vejjajiva's government created the commission with chairman Kanit na Nakorn personally chosen by the premier.

When Colonel Romklao was unexpectedly attacked and killed by a bomb and some senior officers injured, "it led to the confusing and out-of-control use of weapons by soldiers", the report said. It added that soldiers then used rifles and fired "many" live bullets in the direction of the red-shirt protesters. "Many protesters died from bullet wounds," the report stated, without explicitly linking the deaths to soldiers.

The report links at least one of the "men in black" to Army Maj-General Khattiya "Seh Daeng" Sawasdipol, who would later end up being shot down by an unknown sharp shooter on May 13. The report does not reveal the name of the "man in black" believed to be a close aide of Khattiya. On pages 163 and 164, the report says that somebody saw a group of men in black step out of a white van at 7pm on April 10 near the Democracy Monument only to be "surrounded" and escorted by red-shirt guards toward the direction of the deadly confrontation. The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking".

The report failed to shed light on who might have killed Reuters photographer Hiroyuki Muramoto that night, but it did point out that the first death on April 10 had taken place in front of the Education Ministry when a red-shirt protester was killed by a bullet from an unknown assailant. This was well before the men in black showed up.

Death of Maj-General Khattiya

The TRCT report said that Khattiya, a key red-shirt ally, was shot in the head by a "high-velocity" but unspecified gun on the night of May 13 with bullets that "probably" came from the Silom Plaza Building, which was "under the control of the authorities since April 18".

Six deaths at Wat Pathumwannaram

After Khattiya was killed, violence escalated on both sides and the TRCT report noted a photograph taken by Agence France-Presse, showing what was later examined by weapon experts to be the shell of a live bullet flying out of a soldier's rifle aiming his gun toward protesters. The report noted on page 208 that security officers shot live bullets from both rifles and handguns.

On May 19, at around 10.50am, the report said that clashes occurred between soldiers and armed men in black who were holed up inside Lumpini Park and stated that some protesters may have been killed when bullets were fired from the park.

As for the six killed at Wat Pathumwannaram on the evening of May 19 after demonstrators had been dispersed, TRCT said that on May 19, some 4,000 people had entered the temple, which had been declared a sanctuary area. A sign stating temple's sanctuary status had been posted since May 17, after peace advocates had managed to have the government agree to the idea. The report noted an eyewitness account saying men in black had been spotted inside the temple compound on May 15.

The report noted that: "At around 6pm [of May 19, 2010] seven soldiers were deployed on the first floor of [bTS] Skytrain track in front of Wat Pathumwannaram and five [soldiers] at the Siam Centre BTS Station. All of them were armed with M16 rifles and live bullets.

"It was discovered that officers aimed at and shot in the direction of Wat Pathumwannaram.

On the first-floor Skytrain track, two .223 bullet shells were discovered and they had been fired from the same gun.

What's more, a senior monk at the temple said he had seen a number of soldiers on the Skytrain track and had heard my gunshots fired around the front of the temple at dusk.

"It is highly likely that this was the cause of the deaths and injuries around Wat Pathumwananram," the report concluded, adding that one soldier told the TRCT that he had fired into the temple because there was an armed man in black on a tree inside the temple.

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

-- The Nation 2012-09-14

[theblether]

There's no doubt both sides were to blame.........however it's imperative that government forces are held to the highest standards, randomly shooting at protestors is completely out of order, and encircling and entrapping them even more so. Complete innocents lost their lives at this protest, and that was a national disgrace.

This was a hellish circle, a scar on the nation.

[nurofiend]

uh oh....

[otherstuff1957]

Well, this report actually sounds fairly balanced and possibly accurate. I do think that most of the casualties were caused by the soldiers, either because they were out of control once the shooting started or were given orders to kill some of the protesters, but there is no doubt in my mind that the MIB & probably some of the Redshirt leaders did everything they could do to provoke the army.

When the casualty reports started rolling in, champagne was probably broken out in Dubai.

Edited September 14, 2012 by otherstuff1957

[nurofiend]

is it too early to start chastising people for their claims that the soldiers shooting at the temple were really red shirts dressed in army gear?

[Curt1591]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

[nurofiend]

The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking".

i just hope this isn't the best they can come up with for their red shirt cooperation claim from a 515 page report.

can't wait to read it.

[nurofiend]

and of course we have the biased nation headline, it couldn't have just been the 'report from the TRCT obtained', could it?

nope, just make sure to put the red shirts in the negative light from the very get go (title) of the article... when in fact there's actually very little within the article that speaks of the title's claim.

Edited September 14, 2012 by nurofiend

[Notstupid30]

As the old saying goes you play with fire you will be sure to get burned soon or later ..

[whybother]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

If you had watched the video that this photo came from, you would see that these guys were amongst the protesters and shooting at the army.

[Rocky Sassoon]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

Maybe this video from the 10th of April 2010 answers your question.

[nurofiend]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

If you had watched the video that this photo came from, you would see that these guys were amongst the protesters and shooting at the army.

'amongst'

do you mean as in if some guys robbed a bank and you were on the same street, you would be amongst the bank robbers?

Edited September 14, 2012 by nurofiend

[FOODLOVER]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

They stole them along with an arsenal of weapons.

[whybother]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

If you had watched the video that this photo came from, you would see that these guys were amongst the protesters and shooting at the army.

'amongst'

do you mean as in if some guys robbed a bank and you were on the same street, you would be amongst the bank robbers?

He was suggesting that they were army because they had riot shields. I was suggesting that he look at the video to see that these guys were amongst the red shirts and shooting at the army.

When bank robbers rob a bank, do the police sometimes go in to get the bank robbers leading to the death of innocent people? Just in this case, there were some bank staff that were involved with the bank robbers.

[nurofiend]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

If you had watched the video that this photo came from, you would see that these guys were amongst the protesters and shooting at the army.

'amongst'

do you mean as in if some guys robbed a bank and you were on the same street, you would be amongst the bank robbers?

He was suggesting that they were army because they had riot shields. I was suggesting that he look at the video to see that these guys were amongst the red shirts and shooting at the army.

When bank robbers rob a bank, do the police sometimes go in to get the bank robbers leading to the death of innocent people? Just in this case, there were some bank staff that were involved with the bank robbers.

i knew what you were suggesting.

so you're saying that the protesters knew that they (whoever they were) had planned to shoot at the army that night?

you're saying it wasn't a covert operation and all the protestors knew the deal?

Edited September 14, 2012 by nurofiend

[whybother]

i knew what you were suggesting.

so you're saying that the protesters knew that they (whoever they were) had planned to shoot at the army that night?

you're saying it wasn't a covert operation and all the protestors knew the deal?

You knew what I was suggesting, but you decided to do some trolling anyway.

I didn't say anything about the protesters. I said that the shooters were amongst them.

There's that reading problem again.

[ramrod711]

How about mister come to Bangkok now, you won't have to wait for your 500 baht, does he bear any responsibility? What about the people that wanted to go home, but couldn't, because their identity cards were being held by red shirt officials, are they responsible in any way? What about Jatuporn, Nuttawhut and the rest of the rabble rousers that whipped these people into acts that they would not have performed on their own, are they to blame as well? These people were not gathered in a park singing kumbaya, they built barricades, stormed a hospital, created a "security" force and brought in a General to make sure that their defences were as good as possible. Please don't tell me that they were just poor peasants that had had enough, Thaksin used these people and some of them died which is a tragedy. Show me any other place in the world where you could close the centre of the Capitol city for months and the authorities would not attempt to eject them.

[Curt1591]

So, unlike reports, where the MIB were doing all the shooting, the MIB were actually hiding behind shields. I guess the MIB were actually "advisors", not really combatants.

BTW, when lit from behind, most will become black, no matter what they are wearing.

[nurofiend]

i knew what you were suggesting.

so you're saying that the protesters knew that they (whoever they were) had planned to shoot at the army that night?

you're saying it wasn't a covert operation and all the protestors knew the deal?

You knew what I was suggesting, but you decided to do some trolling anyway.

I didn't say anything about the protesters. I said that the shooters were amongst them.

There's that reading problem again.

no trolling or reading problems here... you said "that these guys were amongst the red shirts and shooting at the army"

so i knew what you were suggesting, but stick to the strawmans all you like.

[nurofiend]

anyway whybother, i don't want to derail this thread with back and forths with you as i think this could be an interesting thread, and i don't feel like wasting my time tbh.

[whybother]

no trolling or reading problems here... you said "that these guys were amongst the red shirts and shooting at the army"

so i knew what you were suggesting, but stick to the strawmans all you like.

Strawmans? <deleted>? They weren't army just because they had riot shields. Is that simple enough for you?

[philw]

Interesting and obvious points and allegations seem to made in this report.

There may be enough here to see some generals and the PM of the time ( and other members of his unelected government ) indicted for some very serious crimes.

That really would be a first for Thailand.

[whybother]

anyway whybother, i don't want to derail this thread with back and forths with you as i think this could be an interesting thread, and i don't feel like wasting my time tbh.

Maybe you should think about that before you derail threads with your trolling.

[nurofiend]

no trolling or reading problems here... you said "that these guys were amongst the red shirts and shooting at the army"

so i knew what you were suggesting, but stick to the strawmans all you like.

Strawmans? <deleted>? They weren't army just because they had riot shields. Is that simple enough for you?

you've obviously completely misunderstood what i was saying, please now, let it die.

[KireB]

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

...

...

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

Let me hear from the usual defenders of the red realm how they feel about these quotes from the article.

[Buchholz]

interesting photo of the "men in black". I wonder why they carry riot shields....

'Men In Black' Are Policemen, Chalerm Claims

http://www.thaivisa....s/#entry4908402

.

[philw]

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

...

...

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

Let me hear from the usual defenders of the red realm how they feel about these quotes from the article.

Who can or has disputed the effects of the activities of the MIB ???

There were 4,000 people in the temple and only one weapon ??

That kind of puts to sleep the argument that the reds were heavily armed, does it not ?

[KireB]

Interesting and obvious points and allegations seem to made in this report.

There may be enough here to see some generals and the PM of the time ( and other members of his unelected government ) indicted for some very serious crimes.

That really would be a first for Thailand.

The spinning has started. How should Abhisit and his government have responded after the violent attacks on Bangkok? Send Spiderman? The reds and black shirts raised the stakes on April 10th from a violent protest to potential civil war!

[ramrod711]

So, unlike reports, where the MIB were doing all the shooting, the MIB were actually hiding behind shields. I guess the MIB were actually "advisors", not really combatants.

BTW, when lit from behind, most will become black, no matter what they are wearing.

Did you watch the video, did you see the man in black shoot while he was behind a shield? As far as I know, no one ever said that the men in black did all the shooting. What was said was that the army responded to shots fired AT them. Should the troops have fired back, I don't know, I believe that you should make absolutely certain of your target before you pull a trigger.

[philw]

Interesting and obvious points and allegations seem to made in this report.

There may be enough here to see some generals and the PM of the time ( and other members of his unelected government ) indicted for some very serious crimes.

That really would be a first for Thailand.

The spinning has started. How should Abhisit and his government have responded after the violent attacks on Bangkok? Send Spiderman? The reds and black shirts raised the stakes on April 10th from a violent protest to potential civil war!

Spinning, spinning ??

I think not, but never mind.