Slim Chance Of Floods In Bangkok As Bad As In 2011: Water Expert

[davejones]

I've got some neighbors (family of 4 with the wife definitely in control of the household) who moved everything in their two story house to the second floor just before the floods hit here in Bangkok...nothing wrong with that as I did the same thing. However, I brought my first story furniture back down to the first story after the flood; they brought very little back down...their second story looks like a packed furniture warehouse....the neighbor wife still strongly believes it will flood again this year and makes no effort to hide her belief in discussions. Maybe she's right....these neighbors owns several businesses...three cars...two homes...doing very well...maybe the neighbor lady is right about major flooding in Bangkok again this year---but I don't think so. Still a lot of people believe major flooding is going to reoccur in Bangkok this year or next....hopefully it won't....if it don't this year then maybe these people will feel a little more secure and bring the furniture back down to the first story.

I think it's more that they fear flooding. But why have they left the furniture upstairs even through the dry season. Did she think it was going to be flooded for a whole year. Would make more sense to move everything back downstairs and then move up again if flooding is imminent.

[Pimay1]

water-pushing machines

Still going on about this stupid waste of money are they. Some useless poo yai, or government minister certainly doesn't want to lose his face, or maybe emergency disaster relief money is too easy to graft from with the lack of bidding process and non political checks and balances.

The only large scale water puching machine available to man is gravity. So, you either have to raise the landmass or lower the sea level, which no matter how many promises that fool of a science minister makes, it aint gonna happen, pal.

Nonsense. Water-pushing machines work. They are also used in other countries. It is a fact that they increase the flow of water. So maybe you shoudl check your facts before you go spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Way to go davejones that should put everyone in their place. By the way not doubting your word at all but can you please share some links to these machines being used in other countries and the success rate? I would really like to know more about these machines.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I am not so sure of that...yesterday the street around me was so flooded, I saw a Big Rat Paddling and moving faster than the flow of

traffic

Was he an MP or just a local government worker?

A right plonker trying to appear smart (and failing miserably) by the looks of it!!!

[dcutman]

To protect Bangkok, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) has prepared 40 water-pushing machines to drain water in city canals while the Royal Thai Navy Dockyard has prepared another 40 water-pushing machines.

Does anyone have a link to any information on these water pushing machines (not joking)? I would like to know the design and operation of these criters.

I dont think there is much engineering that went into these things. It appears to just a flat boat, with maybe some big props. If there is drawings, I am sure they are classified state secrets.

[Pib]

I think it's more that they fear flooding. But why have they left the furniture upstairs even through the dry season. Did she think it was going to be flooded for a whole year. Would make more sense to move everything back downstairs and then move up again if flooding is imminent.

I wouldn't say she is afraid of flooding, but she definitely wants to protect her property from flooding. Since she moved the furniture upstairs in early Oct 11 with floods hitting our western Bangkok moobaan (up to around 1.25M) in late Oct and the flood waters not receding until early Dec 11, I think she just felt the flood water will be back in less than a year so why move much of anything if I just have to move it again in around 10 months (or earlier).

[dcutman]

I've got some neighbors (family of 4 with the wife definitely in control of the household) who moved everything in their two story house to the second floor just before the floods hit here in Bangkok...nothing wrong with that as I did the same thing. However, I brought my first story furniture back down to the first story after the flood; they brought very little back down...their second story looks like a packed furniture warehouse....the neighbor wife still strongly believes it will flood again this year and makes no effort to hide her belief in discussions. Maybe she's right....these neighbors owns several businesses...three cars...two homes...doing very well...maybe the neighbor lady is right about major flooding in Bangkok again this year---but I don't think so. Still a lot of people believe major flooding is going to reoccur in Bangkok this year or next....hopefully it won't....if it don't this year then maybe these people will feel a little more secure and bring the furniture back down to the first story.

I think it's more that they fear flooding. But why have they left the furniture upstairs even through the dry season. Did she think it was going to be flooded for a whole year. Would make more sense to move everything back downstairs and then move up again if flooding is imminent.

Posted reply to wrong post, Reply to post #32

Edited September 18, 2012 by dcutman

[dude007]

What a load of nonsense! Shouldn't the guys in this forum who tell such scientific nonsene (= populist bs) better be more careful with the figures they announce? May I take some excerpts:

Statistics gathered by HAII show the amount of run-off in the upper Chao Phraya basin a year ago was eight billion cubic metres. The amount of run-off in the same area this year stands at 1,000 cubic metres.

That means that the run-of this year (flooding entirely Sukhothai and Pitsanulok) is only 1/8,000,000 of last year??? I am sure that even the street cleaners of Bangkok do not believe this nonsense...

While the run-off amount in the lower Chao Phraya basin last year was at 12 billion to 14 billion cubic metres, the amount now was 300 million cubic metres.

That means that the run-off amount is only 1/40 of last year's? Are these people like Khun Royol still well aware of what they say? I am afraid they get lost, not in translation but in zeros...

Basically as waterway expert (I admit with my 40 years work, not having the same experience of a Yingluck) I can tell the people of Thailand that NOTHING has been done so far to substantially increase the drainage capacity of the Chao Phraya basin. The situation is as bad as last year and the PT-Government is only hoping that there will be less rainfall, but as soon as the rainfall will approach similar volumes as last year, nothing will escape to the flooding except perhaps some industrial estates. The big populist nonsense of the canal drainage improvement is something in de hundreds of m3/sec discharge (I think 280 m3/sec for all canals together) whilst we need at least 2,500 m3/sec to get rid of the floods... TEN TIMES MORE!!!!!!!!!

A water-pushing machine could drain water from western Bangkok's Thawee Wattana Canal at 15 cubic metres per second, according to the test, after 20 per cent of that volume was released into the canal.

And should Plodprasob not better start some model testing somewhere in a hydrographic laboratory with these idiotic water pushing machines first before ordering new and more ones? These water pushing machines are just pushing water backwards producing a water level increase immediately downstream and consequently at the same time a natural backflow (via bottom and river banks) which is at leat 60-80% of the propulsed water volume. These water pushing machines are just playing with the same water volumes again and again. The effectiveness of these silly devices is barely 10-12%. Please Plodprasob, test it out before producing more useless and senseless nonsense... You will quickly come to conclusions...

How disappointing this populist Government ! Thai people especially of Bangkok and surroundings inclduing the central plains: open your eyes because you're not out of danger, this year perhaps but surely not the coming years with the ever increasing rainfalls due to global warming and the further sinking of the entire city in the soft unconsolidated maritime clay!

Edited September 18, 2012 by dude007

[dcutman]

water-pushing machines

Still going on about this stupid waste of money are they. Some useless poo yai, or government minister certainly doesn't want to lose his face, or maybe emergency disaster relief money is too easy to graft from with the lack of bidding process and non political checks and balances.

The only large scale water puching machine available to man is gravity. So, you either have to raise the landmass or lower the sea level, which no matter how many promises that fool of a science minister makes, it aint gonna happen, pal.

Nonsense. Water-pushing machines work. They are also used in other countries. It is a fact that they increase the flow of water. So maybe you shoudl check your facts before you go spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Way to go davejones that should put everyone in their place. By the way not doubting your word at all but can you please share some links to these machines being used in other countries and the success rate? I would really like to know more about these machines.

This is the only thing I could find #9

xts

Posts: 882

Polish firemen use small flat-hull motorboats equipped with special diffusor shaping the stream of water, which may be lowered to the propeller. They were used during floods a year ago not only to drain flooded areas and streets of flooded towns, but also to improve flow in channels, narrows and gaps under bridges. Single such boat pumps 0.5m³/s at high speed. I guess ordinary boat without such diffusor is less efficient, but on other hand may pump more water at lower speeds - which is better on large slow river.

I thought this just a bad Pollock joke at first, and this could be what davejones is referring to. This is the only other reference I could find other than in Thailand.

[dude007]

I've got some neighbors (family of 4 with the wife definitely in control of the household) who moved everything in their two story house to the second floor just before the floods hit here in Bangkok...nothing wrong with that as I did the same thing. However, I brought my first story furniture back down to the first story after the flood; they brought very little back down...their second story looks like a packed furniture warehouse....the neighbor wife still strongly believes it will flood again this year and makes no effort to hide her belief in discussions. Maybe she's right....these neighbors owns several businesses...three cars...two homes...doing very well...maybe the neighbor lady is right about major flooding in Bangkok again this year---but I don't think so. Still a lot of people believe major flooding is going to reoccur in Bangkok this year or next....hopefully it won't....if it don't this year then maybe these people will feel a little more secure and bring the furniture back down to the first story.

I think it's more that they fear flooding. But why have they left the furniture upstairs even through the dry season. Did she think it was going to be flooded for a whole year. Would make more sense to move everything back downstairs and then move up again if flooding is imminent.

Posted reply to wrong post, Reply to post #32

Did you notice that these boats are positioning themselves in front of a pipe (where there is NO BACKFLOW)? They may be more helpful but still not effective. In this case better use ordinary pumps! The ones Plodprasob has used in the canals are the sheerest nonsense I have ever seen...

Edited September 18, 2012 by dude007

[Schuimpge]

To protect Bangkok, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) has prepared 40 water-pushing machines to drain water in city canals while the Royal Thai Navy Dockyard has prepared another 40 water-pushing machines.

Does anyone have a link to any information on these water pushing machines (not joking)? I would like to know the design and operation of these criters.

I've seen countless people laughing about these machines and how it's impossible.

Have seen some demonstrated during Navanakorn's testing of its floodwalls.

Not sure if most people realize, but the basic principle is a pontoon/boat with a large engine driving a propellor of course.

This boat is anchored to the side or a bridge over the canal.

So by any logic I can think of, the propellor creates movement of water that would normally move the boat in the water.

In this case, the boat is anchored, so instead, the water is moving, it has to.

Of course this will only work if at the end of the canal, the water is pumped out at least as fast as flow generated by the boat.

So, by creating this movement, water in a canal upstream of the boat gets slightly lower and downstream after the boat it will be slightly higher as it is pushed away towards a drainage pump that lifts it over the levee's out to sea.

This all means that the capacity of the canal increases, so does the inflow capacity of water because that boat pushes water faster downstream.

As long as the capacity of the pumps at the end of the canal is large enough, you could add more boats to move water even faster, thus creating more speed in which water is moving from start of canal to end of canal...

[dude007]

"I can't tell you and I won't tell you whether there will definitely be flooding or no flooding this year. The only thing I can say is Thailand has a slim chance of facing a situation like last year's flood," said Royol, who is also the director of the Hydro and Agro Infomatics Institute (HAII).

So, who can we ask the question? As tax payers the population has the right to know what is going to happen to our homes. Billions of Baht "were invested" to prevent this calamity to happen again but it seems that nothing or almost nothing was done and now, no one has the right to ask the experts. Let's just wait and one morning when we wake and our homes are flooded we will find out that the flood prevention experts couldn't solve anything!!!

No-one knows, so there is no-one that can answer the question. How do you expect anyone to know how many storms we will have in the next couple of months? You are expecting people to answer the impossible. The best answer is that there is only a slim chance of floods similar to 2011, so keep an eye on the weather and you'll eventually find out.

I just don't understand the motivation of people like you that post such nonsense. How exactly do you expect someone to know if it will flood or not? If you're so clever, then why don't you answer the question yourself.

Hold on Davejones, the only thing we are sure of is that NOTHING SUBSTANTIALS so far has been done under this Government to dramatically increase the drainage capacity of the Chao Phraya river basin. These silly canal dredgings will not do anything to the essence... perhaps 2 or 3%. Is it worth to make so much [populist] publicity around this?

[ResX]

Actually you can if you understand the reasons that cause the floods. If they release 100 million cubic meter per day from those two dams in the north over a period longer than a week, then the average discharge of Chao Pharaya contribute by these two dams is 1,157 cubic meters per second. Long term average inflow for these two dam is far less than 400 cubic meters per second. If the dams discharging 4 folds higher than their natural averages, what is so difficult to predict what the localized storm waters can do to the already 50% filled Chao Pharaya? If the discharges from dams in the north accupy 50% of the natural retention capacity of rhe Chao Pharaya for sustainable long duration, then there are very realistic chances localized storm waters at a few critical areas will breach both river banks.

Based on my reasearch over past one week, I come to know that the way the two dams in the north was operated badly (negatively) altered medium term average flow of the Chao Pharaya. As a result the the river has less capable to take natural flood flows. The ultimate outcome is the intensity, duration and frequency of flash floods will become more negative.

This is not about the dams. This is about the chosen operational strategy.

Edited September 18, 2012 by ResX

[dude007]

water-pushing machines

Still going on about this stupid waste of money are they. Some useless poo yai, or government minister certainly doesn't want to lose his face, or maybe emergency disaster relief money is too easy to graft from with the lack of bidding process and non political checks and balances.

The only large scale water puching machine available to man is gravity. So, you either have to raise the landmass or lower the sea level, which no matter how many promises that fool of a science minister makes, it aint gonna happen, pal.

Nonsense. Water-pushing machines work. They are also used in other countries. It is a fact that they increase the flow of water. So maybe you shoudl check your facts before you go spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Sorry: NOT TRUE... They do no work!!!

[Schuimpge]

water-pushing machines

Still going on about this stupid waste of money are they. Some useless poo yai, or government minister certainly doesn't want to lose his face, or maybe emergency disaster relief money is too easy to graft from with the lack of bidding process and non political checks and balances.

The only large scale water puching machine available to man is gravity. So, you either have to raise the landmass or lower the sea level, which no matter how many promises that fool of a science minister makes, it aint gonna happen, pal.

Nonsense. Water-pushing machines work. They are also used in other countries. It is a fact that they increase the flow of water. So maybe you shoudl check your facts before you go spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Agree, people forget they are anchored. By any physics laws that I know, if you put a propellor in the water, driven by an engine, than something will move... the machines are anchored, something has to move, so that will be the water then.

the only critical thing in this is...water at the end of the canal has to be pumped out at the same rate or higher, or the pushing machine will be useless (or inefficient) because of backflow...

[Schuimpge]

water-pushing machines

Still going on about this stupid waste of money are they. Some useless poo yai, or government minister certainly doesn't want to lose his face, or maybe emergency disaster relief money is too easy to graft from with the lack of bidding process and non political checks and balances.

The only large scale water puching machine available to man is gravity. So, you either have to raise the landmass or lower the sea level, which no matter how many promises that fool of a science minister makes, it aint gonna happen, pal.

Nonsense. Water-pushing machines work. They are also used in other countries. It is a fact that they increase the flow of water. So maybe you shoudl check your facts before you go spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Sorry: NOT TRUE... They do no work!!!

Please provide some substantial reasons for it. Quite impossible to argue with it except maybe: Sorry: You are not correct.... They do work!!!

[Chads]

Guy in the photo looks happy though.

[HOOD Robin]

"... a water-pushing machine..."

No further questions.

Thailand = Middle ages

or even worse.... Flintstones era ? (Wilma on top of it...)

[yourauntbob]

Flood expert in Thailand

[RogueExpat]

the only critical thing in this is...water at the end of the canal has to be pumped out at the same rate or higher, or the pushing machine will be useless (or inefficient) because of backflow...

Bingo!

If the water can't escape any quicker, all that happens is the water pushing machine, whatever size from outboard engine to 200,000 SHP nuclear oil tanker, creates a big circular eddy, or a raised area of water level in front of the bottleneck.

I can't believe some people are gullible enough to think there is a water pushing machine that can accelerate the draining of the Jao Praya River effectively. You'de need a low tide and a motor propellor combination in the millions of megawatts range.

[catweazle]

Severe crackdown on PMs who promised "no flooding this year", please!

[Schuimpge]

water-pushing machines

Still going on about this stupid waste of money are they. Some useless poo yai, or government minister certainly doesn't want to lose his face, or maybe emergency disaster relief money is too easy to graft from with the lack of bidding process and non political checks and balances.

The only large scale water puching machine available to man is gravity. So, you either have to raise the landmass or lower the sea level, which no matter how many promises that fool of a science minister makes, it aint gonna happen, pal.

Nonsense. Water-pushing machines work. They are also used in other countries. It is a fact that they increase the flow of water. So maybe you shoudl check your facts before you go spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Sorry: NOT TRUE... They do no work!!!

Maybe easier with an example.

I put a waterpump in a round bathtub...(fix it to the side with water outlet along the side of the tub.)

Switch it on and in a couple of minutes you will see that all the water in the tub is moving around...

That's (as far as I know) a waterpushing machine working....

Project that idea on a canal. Water-pushing machine...(and don't forget the pump at the end of the canal)...

The COMBINATION will make for a larger drainage capacity of the canal.

Oh and don't tell me the pump at the end will do...

If the pump is large enough, the waterflow alone could be in-sufficient to keep up with it, causing the pump to run dry or working at intervals only.

That's where you help the water moving faster by installing water-pushing machines further upstream to get it to the pump-area faster.

Subsequently, water moves into the canal faster as well...(given that there is enough water upstream to keep up with the demand. Which would be the case with wide-spread flooding).

[monkeycountry]

To those of you who believe in "water pushing machines", I suggest you try the following at home.

1. Fill your bathtub with water.

2. Open the drain, and use a stopwatch to see how long it takes to drain.

3. Fill the bathtub again (to the same level as in 1).

4. Open the drain, use your arms to push the water all you want towards the drain, and use a stopwatch to see how long it takes to drain.

5. Post the result on TV.

As for the government, I suggest they try the following.

1. Find a very large pool (or even a dam resevoir).

2. Place a large drain at one end.

3. Fill the pool with water, open the drain, and see how long it takes to drain.

4. Now fill the pool again, place a "water pushing machine" in the middle of the pool and turn it on.

5. Open the drain, and see how long it takes to drain the pool.

6. Fill the pool again, and put a large pump in the pool with a hose that is either connected to the drain, or even better, just going over the edge of the pool.

7. Turn on the pump, open the drain, and see how long it takes to drain the pool.

8. Post the results on TV and in Thai papers - and make sure Ms. Yingluck reads one of them.

9. If 3 and 5 are almost identical, let someone else be in charge of flood prevention measures from now on and make sure he/she sees the result of 7 as well. Preferrably someone with an engineering degree (as he already knows the difference between 3, 5 and 7).

Edited September 18, 2012 by monkeycountry

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I saw a Big Rat Paddling and moving faster than the flow of traffic

That's what they were referring to as the "water pushing machines" referenced in the OP.

[Schuimpge]

the only critical thing in this is...water at the end of the canal has to be pumped out at the same rate or higher, or the pushing machine will be useless (or inefficient) because of backflow...

Bingo!

If the water can't escape any quicker, all that happens is the water pushing machine, whatever size from outboard engine to 200,000 SHP nuclear oil tanker, creates a big circular eddy, or a raised area of water level in front of the bottleneck.

I can't believe some people are gullible enough to think there is a water pushing machine that can accelerate the draining of the Jao Praya River effectively. You'de need a low tide and a motor propellor combination in the millions of megawatts range.

Where you get the Chao Praya river in this picture?

They are talking about canals in Bangkok.

1. Canals in Bangkok are below sealevel...There's a couple of monstrous pumping stations south of Bangkok to empty them. These pumps are running with high-tide and with low-tide, natural flow empties the canals meaning that they canal water level is above low-tide sea-level and below high-tide sea-level.

If at low tide you can increase the speed of waterflow...then you are able to drain more in a fixed amount of time.

2. You confirm I'm right with my earlier posts (I think) with the 'bottle-neck'-remark...These bottle-necks (like bends/shallow parts) cause friction, slowing down the speed of water (and causing it to backup and overflow before the bottleneck. So a water-pushing machine would increase the flow in these spots and reduce the chance of higher water-levels upstream.

[Fishface]

Its not a water pushing machine , it is a tree pulling machine, but it cant pull the tree because its stuck in the ground so it is a fuel wasting machine.

[Schuimpge]

RogueExpat, to be fair, I do agree 100% with you that these machines in the Chao Praya river would have zero effect.

However, upstream, there might be locations where it does work, but we're talking about Bangkok canals here.

Canals are ideal for this. Straight, narrow and mostly dammed/sluiced at both ends with pumps/gates regulating the water-level.

[AjarnMartin]

The headline in TV "Chance of floods in Bangkok..." was directly opposing the headline which read "SLIM chance of floods..." - alarmist or what? No, just poor reporting to stimulate the inane comments from the readership. :-(

[travelmann]

I am not so sure of that...yesterday the street around me was so flooded, I saw a Big Rat Paddling and moving faster than the flow of

traffic

A Baht Raaat

[ThiravetPramuanratkarn]

Royol’s too much confidence sounds like a reflection of failure committed

by the government’s complete water mismanagement last year.

To be sure, the relative difference of water level above Bhumibol Dam

between 6,000 million cubic meters at the present and that of twice as much

lower some 365 days ago can by no means guarantee Bangkok’s floods in a month to come.

[techboy]

"What I found is people tend to believe information according to who delivers the message rather than really considering the source of the information."

Sounds like the problem which the whole of Thailand suffers from

"Sounds like the problem which the whole of Thailand humanity suffers from" However in this forum it appears that the infallible perception of most members is that all human flaws are uniquely Thai.