Rimmer Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Can we stop with the bickering right now please. Thanks guys. I have unfortunately removed some very heated off topic and inflammatory posts which is a shame as they made some very good points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxYakov Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) [ snip ] I've not seen the police report but I understand she dies of a broken neck. If that is true then I can tell you with about 90% certainty she wasn't wearing a seatbelt and if she had it is very unlikely she would have broken her neck. [ snip ] One doesn't need the police report to see that the [de]acceleration forces were directly to her left because of the extensive damage to the left side of her car by having the front of the pickup hitting her at a 90 degree angle. Impact [de]acceleration forces were obviously very great because of the combined speeds of her vehicle and the pickup and the damage to her car. You claim to have been an accident investigator. Do you believe that the steering wheel airbag, had it deployed, would have protected her from large g forces occurring at 90 degrees from the longitudinal axis of her car? Additionally, from the OP-linked pattayadailynews article: In the driver’s seat was the dead body of Ms. Phavinee Noyjad age 18, address 37/163 Moo 1 Tambon Plutaluang, Amphur Sattahip, Chonburi province. If her restraining belts had not been used, she would probably not have been in the driver's seat, unless someone, post-accident, had placed her [body] there. My bet is that her body remained restrained in the seat and experienced rapid [de]acceleration while her head, which was unrestrained, continued at high velocity to her left, breaking her neck. This assumes that her car did not have side-impact airbags. I'm not an accident investigator, but there are reliable universal physical laws and, of course, those, often unreliable, news articles. Drive Safely and with Good Judgment RIP Ms. Phavinee Noyjad Edited September 20, 2012 by MaxYakov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NangrongJ Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 As I stated I don't know the full facts but what I can tell you with my experience is the airbag is designed to work with the seatbelt; the seatbelt will hold the driver and the airbag prevents the head from impact. If she wasn't wearing a seatbelt and as suggested, the airbag was deployed then it is not uncommon for the airbag to break the neck of the driver, indeed very common. The head restraint is there to prevent such actions as 'whiplash. If she lost control on the bend a side ways impact could have broken her neck but it would have to be an impact, perhaps against the window. Your bet is irrelivant as that's all it is. I don't do bets. I have assisted police in many countries but Thailand is not open to assistance in any matter of road safety. I'm not sure if it;s possible to get a civil investigation in Thailand, perhaps some on here can enlighten me but it is common in UK/EU &USA to challenge the police investigation. This is usually instigated by insurance companies. I must be fair and add that the Thai police are vastly under-resourced, poorly trained and poorly paid and that's not my opinion, it comes from friends who have served in the Thai police. The police will do an investigation but it is unlikely (because of cost) that it will be a full forensic one unlike the little rich kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NangrongJ Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 maxyakov g-forces in a vehicle are not the biggest problem, many people have survived such stress (experiments with racing drivers prove this). I think you are alluding to the cornering forces? A we know momentum is a problem when decelerating and braking and centrifugal forces on bends and corner; but the combination of both those forces acting together and competing with each other is the lethal combination. This usually results in internal injuries; driver have looked to be ok but internally may have ruptures. A broken neck is possible in such an instance but only if the seatbelt is not worn; the airbag on a bend could actually make matter worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxYakov Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) As I stated I don't know the full facts but what I can tell you with my experience is the airbag is designed to work with the seatbelt; the seatbelt will hold the driver and the airbag prevents the head from impact. If she wasn't wearing a seatbelt and as suggested, the airbag was deployed then it is not uncommon for the airbag to break the neck of the driver, indeed very common. The head restraint is there to prevent such actions as 'whiplash. If she lost control on the bend a side ways impact could have broken her neck but it would have to be an impact, perhaps against the window. Your bet is irrelivant as that's all it is. I don't do bets. I have assisted police in many countries but Thailand is not open to assistance in any matter of road safety. [ snipped opinion of Thai accident investigations ] None of us have the full facts, but we do have photos, potentially unreliable news reports, the opinions of posts on this thread and those pesky immutable physical laws. 1) There is no mention/evidence of driver's-side airbag deployment in the news articles. In fact, one perceptive poster noticed that her car was a Camry with 4-bolt wheels (photos of her car) and he doubted that it even had airbags (@noob7 - post #9): http://www.thaivisa....k/#entry5677032 2) How does a seat-back head restraint protect from whiplash (longitudinal forces protection) in a side-impact (latitudinal) collision? 3) How could her head have hit the window, which is on her right, when the [de]acceleration forces were to her left (photos of both the damage to the pickup and her car and the news report description of her going over the traffic island)? 4) Are you sure you're not a betting man? If you're a driver, or anywhere near a road for any reason, then you bet (mentally) all the time that the other driver or pedestrian is going to do the right thing and make your decisions accordingly. Right? If you're really perceptive, you can bet against the other person and perhaps prevent an accident and some lives. IMHO, with defensive driving, one should constantly be thinking in terms of probability and calculated risks as a basis for decisions. I avoided a bad accident once, by betting that someone in a string of high-speed tailgaters was going to screw-up and cause an accident. So I went down-freeway 1/4 mile. I watched the accident (two vehicles decided to change lanes simultaneously - the rear one was attempting to pass). I watched the resulting collision in my rear-view mirror. 5) You say you've assisted police in many countries. What kind of assistance did you render? Edited September 20, 2012 by MaxYakov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxYakov Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) maxyakov g-forces in a vehicle are not the biggest problem, many people have survived such stress (experiments with racing drivers prove this). I think you are alluding to the cornering forces? A we know momentum is a problem when decelerating and braking and centrifugal forces on bends and corner; but the combination of both those forces acting together and competing with each other is the lethal combination. This usually results in internal injuries; driver have looked to be ok but internally may have ruptures. A broken neck is possible in such an instance but only if the seatbelt is not worn; the airbag on a bend could actually make matter worse. No, I'm not alluding to the corning forces. I'm alluding to the articles' photos that show a car that obviously had a side-impact at high speed. And since the side-impact was caused by being hit by another moving vehicle, it must have been severe. Did you see the photos? I believe the record-holder for g force survival was with rocket sled tests back in the 40's/50's by Col John Stapp - 46 gs: Notice that the [de]acceleration was longitudinal and not lateral. This is all very academic isn't it? What will our pedantic discussion here do to prevent other Thai people from getting subjected to fatally-high g forces in the future on the streets and highways of Thailand (or anywhere else)? Edited September 20, 2012 by MaxYakov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 I have removed some more posts, NangrongJ if you do not not stop picking fights with people and calling them names I will suspend you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NangrongJ Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 MAX (and others) I'm going to conclude this conversation by stating; since this unfortunate unnecessary death of this young woman at least 50 other Thais will have been killed on the roads of Thailand about about 5 times that seriously injured. That is a minimum because that's what the Thai government figures state but they are not accepted by UN/WHO as accurate. Putting that a side, one death is one too many and until there is proper driver training, objective and not subjective testing; compliance and enforcement it can only get worse and none of us want that. Forget losing face and start thinking about not losing lives the next time you let a 12 year old ride a motorcycle because when he/she gets a car it will be too late to train them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayman Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 MAX (and others) I'm going to conclude this conversation by stating; since this unfortunate unnecessary death of this young woman at least 50 other Thais will have been killed on the roads of Thailand about about 5 times that seriously injured. That is a minimum because that's what the Thai government figures state but they are not accepted by UN/WHO as accurate. Putting that a side, one death is one too many and until there is proper driver training, objective and not subjective testing; compliance and enforcement it can only get worse and none of us want that. Forget losing face and start thinking about not losing lives the next time you let a 12 year old ride a motorcycle because when he/she gets a car it will be too late to train them. didn't bother reading the rest of what you have been writing but I agree with this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshbags Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) marshbags I know what an accident is and there are many definitions. I'm a uk certified accident investigator. And we no longer refer to them as accident but crashes and incidents. I don't care what the Thai police say, they are irrelevant and poorly trained. Thailand is not accepted into the UK/WHO road safety league table as Thailand is non-compliant. I wasn't an accident it was negligence, it an incident that could easily have been avoided and one that involved unnecessary risk. It happens hundreds of times every week in Thailand and will continue to happen until people like you learn to take responsibility for your actions. I take onboard your observations Nangrong and in particular liked an earlier post which should be indicated now, regarding it being and accident we will have to differ on this particular point of view. The great thing about debating threads like this one is we gleen a lot about the technical aspects of the accident and get some great input from members who post advice and observations we can all learn something from and in turn make us more aware and hopefully safer drivers. Like I previously posted, negligence is a major factor which IMHO comes from successive governments and related authorities who seem oblivious by their inactions to seriously addressing the root causes of which their are several, but instead of implementing ways to reduce the horrific statistics, continually make and break pledges to make a real change. Just by going on the comments on this thread and those of other similar content on Thai Visa, our membership are well read on not only the basic fundamentals as to why, but continually make / offer suggestions pertinant to how to address this daily carnage, sadly those who have the authority / power to make a difference, either do not have it or seemingly do not care a dam_n. If anyone in authority wishes to consult those of us who can offer a long term solution may I humbly suggest you consult our members who I feel sure will be more than willing to assist you on the behalf of all road users...free of charge. marshbags P.S. While some of us may not be recognised professionals we have great knowledge and understanding as to why and how this daily carnage continually happens based on and via our on hands driving experiences in Thailand and compliment it with the common sense judgement. Edited September 20, 2012 by marshbags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NangrongJ Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 marshbags I cannot dissagree with anything you say there and I respect there are, indeed must be many farangs that are well informed on many issues. I'm new to forums, I've never had the time to play around with these, if that's the correct term. I'm happy to help anyone as many people in many countries know and I'm happy to put my credentials up for scrutiny, to the right people. I recently wrote to the editor of the Bangkok Post asking why he approved and allowed someone with no qualifications, background or any expertise in road safety to write an article on it. If that happened in uk you'd be looking at prison. As yet I have not received the dignity or decency of a response (after 4 days). I accept he's probably confused, putting on his Thai face and adopting the Ostrich mode as most Thais will do when confronted, in particular confronted with facts. I do love Thailand, as one who has been to worked and lived in 38 countries this is the nearest to living in Disneyland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NangrongJ Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 thats my point marshbags - she did what they all do and thought it was ok because they got away with it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Very sad indeed. My condolences and PIP (Pass over In Peace) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The only thing that will put an end to this carnage is a fear of being fined some 2,000 bahts for speeding. Currently, this fear does not exist in Thailand. Sad that this girl had to die before this fear is created. Sad. Apparently you have also fallen for the myth that speed is the root to all evil on the road. It is the inability of the driver to control his/her vehicle that cause the "accidents" to happen. Regardless of speed. A speed, for an experienced, trained driver, that at any given moment may be of no problem at all, can for the unexperienced, unknowledgeable driver be fatal. Especially in Thailand where Thais, especially young ones, believe that they are immortal when on a motorbike or in a car. Well, Apparently you have also fallen for the myth inexperience is the root to all evil on the road. What I fear most driving in thailand are the EXPERIENCED truck driver who drive too fast, and are unable to avoid the unexperienced drivers who drive cautiously on the roads. I have absolutely no fear of unexperienced drivers, some 12 years old, who drive slowly and cautiously. Not sure in which world you live in.... Slowly and cautiously? Well it is apparent that you do not live in Thailand. I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoodMaiDai Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshorts Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. No anticipation. No defensive driving. Serious accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxYakov Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. No anticipation. No defensive driving. Serious accident. Neophyte, 18 year-old driver, probably minimal training and experience and, therefore, judgment (at the top of the problem hierarchy). She wouldn't have been driving my car at high (or any) speed, that's for sure. Especially if I were in it. I've learned from experience in that department. Parking lot ... maybe. Edited September 22, 2012 by MaxYakov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxYakov Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. Cars here and everywhere - lightening (and resulting weakening) of cars for gas economy. It will probably get worse in the future as higher MPG demands are made by environmentalists/governments. Edited September 22, 2012 by MaxYakov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob7 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. In 'home', probably a expert get asked, about the speed. In 'here', they ask the driver, or the police 'expect' that they didn't drive to quickly, cause no skid marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshbags Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. No anticipation. No defensive driving. Serious accident. Which comes down to the importance of attaining a proven standard, knowledge of the highway code and dangers, education, safe driving instruction and awareness finished with a test to show they have acquired the basic standards required and recognised at international levels. If drivers are not pre taught and supervised until they reach a desired level of understanding and safety related awareness, they will continue to think incorrectly they can just get in / on a vehicle and go out on the road and simply go from a-b ...no problem. Tho old boring clechay re TIT should not apply for anyone tempted to quote it because this does not in any way better the embedded culture that is responsible for many of the fatalities and injuries that occur daily. The belief gleened from bad example, the attitude that no problem it,s o.k. because their families and supposed piers by their actions do not spread the message we all seek and should be enforced in no uncertain terms If you cannot drive safely DO NOT DRIVE has to be implemeted for everyone and. needs immediately putting in place. If a pre safe driver training initiative is not put in place the horrendous statistics will continue at an alarming and horrific pace if the authorities do not put in place recognised pre driving standards backed up by genuine law enforcement for ALL existing road users and a banning period coupled with the order to take pre driver tuition and instruction followed by testing of course for all offenders prior to finally getting back their licence. marshbags Edited September 22, 2012 by marshbags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NangrongJ Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. Cars here and everywhere - lightening (and resulting weakening) of cars for gas economy. It will probably get worse in the future as higher MPG demands are made by environmentalists/governments. Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. Cars here and everywhere - lightening (and resulting weakening) of cars for gas economy. It will probably get worse in the future as higher MPG demands are made by environmentalists/governments. Cars are designed to 'crumple' upon impact to absorb as much force as possible. Having said that, some cars are safer than others and what is built and bought in Thailand would not be accepted in the EU. As for training, marshbags is correct as to what is needed. However, we speak of 'experience'. Experience isn't just how long but an accumulation of what has been ;learned or acquired nut only if one is receptive to it. The real problem is one of decision making and that only fully functions in the early to mid-twenties when the frontal lobe is fully formed. With kids 'n' cars we have essentially weapons and the results are there for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxYakov Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Is it just me or do the cars here just mangle beyond belief when they have accidents? I never recall such destroyed cars back home unless it was a really high speed accident. Even slower speed accidents usually total the vehicle. Cars here and everywhere - lightening (and resulting weakening) of cars for gas economy. It will probably get worse in the future as higher MPG demands are made by environmentalists/governments. Cars are designed to 'crumple' upon impact to absorb as much force as possible. Having said that, some cars are safer than others and what is built and bought in Thailand would not be accepted in the EU. As for training, marshbags is correct as to what is needed. However, we speak of 'experience'. Experience isn't just how long but an accumulation of what has been ;learned or acquired nut only if one is receptive to it. The real problem is one of decision making and that only fully functions in the early to mid-twenties when the frontal lobe is fully formed. With kids 'n' cars we have essentially weapons and the results are there for all to see. According to this article (Thaksin University), 50% of the road 'incidents' (my words, for the sensitive) are caused by drunk-driving: http://www.tsuwestern.com/?p=825 They also mention poor roads - we can all see them, every day. I'm not in the least discounting the value of driver's education and testing; but maybe, if the article is accurate, the greatest reduction in Thailand's road fatalities and injuries (notice I didn't say that 'accidents' word) would be brought about by strictly enforcing DUI laws. I mean REALLY enforcing them. Also, I believe the motorbikes are another large source of deaths and injury because of the obvious lack of rider protection as well exacerbated by their (often) refusal to wear protective gear and other bad riding habits (don't want to rant on this particular item, but I certainly could). Edited September 22, 2012 by MaxYakov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardtongue Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 The guy in the pick up would've made it if he had worn a seatbelt! The head-on collision instantly killed his girlfriend, while he and the pickup truck driver barely survived. according to this he did make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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