กรุงเทพ

[wasabi]

I know transliterating Thai into English leads to ambiguity but hopefully my examples will help someone clarify how sara เ is pronounced. From what I understand it has the "a" sound in cake, or tape.

However I sometimes here เ pronounced eh. as in slept or in เสร็จ

It seems sometimes เ is pronunced eh and sometimes ay. In Courage on Thai-language.com there is a footnote that เ sounds like eh when there is a tone mark of some kind, and like ay when there isn't.

So is Bangkok pronounced Grung Tape or Grung Tehp?

[Explorer]

I think it is Krungthep

Explorer

[meadish_sweetball]

I know transliterating Thai into English leads to ambiguity but hopefully my examples will help someone clarify how sara เ is pronounced. From what I understand it has the "a" sound in cake, or tape.

However I sometimes here เ pronounced eh. as in slept or in เสร็จ

It seems sometimes เ is pronunced eh and sometimes ay. In Courage on Thai-language.com there is a footnote that เ sounds like eh when there is a tone mark of some kind, and like ay when there isn't.

So is Bangkok pronounced Grung Tape or Grung Tehp?

The sound of 'a' in 'tape' in most variations of English is a vowel glide. It starts at one vowel sound and glides over into another. In phonetics, this sound would be represented as [ei]. The sound of เ in Thai, as a contrast, is represented as [e:] in phonetic writing. It is NOT a vowel glide, but a prolonged, constant sound.

However, if you pronounce 'ay' as a Scotsman, you will get more or less the right sound, since Scottish English typically does not have the same vowel glides as other English dialects.

The reason why some people choose to use English 'ay' for that sound, or write it 'tape', is because they are attempting to indicate that the vowel sound is long and not short. Basically, it is a tradeoff.

With 'tape', you get the wrong vowel quality (unless you're Scottish), but more or less the right vowel length.

As a contrast, with 'eh' you get more or less the right vowel quality, but a shorter sound. In Thai, the difference between a long and a short vowel sound determines meaning. Hence it is probably seen as better to use 'ay', as the difference in vowel length is seen as a more important feature than the vowel quality. Either way, you are stuck with a mispronunciation.

The official writing dictates 'krung thep' or 'Krungthep' like Explorer says. The problem with that is the vowel length. Most people would pronounce 'thep' with the same vowel length as 'step', which is incorrect. They might also be tempted to pronounce 'th' as in 'thigh' instead of 'Thai' - this is also incorrect. If you want to learn how to pronounce it correctly, listen to a Thai and try to be aware of any sounds you cannot reproduce correctly.

If it is just a matter of writing it in English text, then just use 'Krungthep' as the official spelling dictates (or even simpler, if possible just write Bangkok).

Hope that helps.

In Courage on Thai-language.com there is a footnote that เ sounds like eh when there is a tone mark of some kind, and like ay when there isn't.

That piece of advice does not make any sense IMO.

[sabaijai]

I think it's safe to say that เ is pronounced differently depending on whether the word ends in a stop final or not.

Contrast เท่ (sharp; smart-looking; cool; hip) with เทพ. (This also counters the thai-language.com notion that a tonemark 'shortens' the sound)

[meadish_sweetball]

I cannot hear any such difference myself (right now I only have myself to try it out on though) - is it in the vowel length, openness of mouth, tongue position, or anything else? To me they sound the same apart from the final.

[sabaijai]

I cannot hear any such difference myself (right now I only have myself to try it out on though) - is it in the vowel length, openness of mouth, tongue position, or anything else? To me they sound the same apart from the final.

I hear a difference, and was taught there was a difference. เทพ slightly shorter/more relaxed, เท่ slightly longer and more tense. We both (I and that instructor) could be wrong though ...

[greenwanderer108]

I cannot hear any such difference myself (right now I only have myself to try it out on though) - is it in the vowel length, openness of mouth, tongue position, or anything else? To me they sound the same apart from the final.

I hear a difference, and was taught there was a difference. เทพ slightly shorter/more relaxed, เท่ slightly longer and more tense. We both (I and that instructor) could be wrong though ...

There is a difference. I think Sabaijai is on the right track. For low class consanants anyway (haven't checked for the mid/high class words yet) the eh sound of เ is natural for the falling tone created (using long vowel and short stop consanant ending of พ ก ด บ) But for other consanant endings like น ม and even ป, a different tone would be made and the เ would make the longer 'ay' sound for example

เทพ เกบ เนบ เคก all would have the falling tone and 'eh' sound

but if you switched the ending consanant, would change the tone and make it 'ay sound

like

เทป (high tone i think) เลน (my surname--mid tone) เวม (don't even know if it's a word, but the เwould be read as the 'ay' with mid tone

Not exactly complete explanation, but the basic idea, perhaps someone can fill in my gaps with the exact rules...

[greenwanderer108]

speaking of my surname, this is a good example to see the difference in the sounds of สระเอ

My surname is Layne (with the 'ay' sound)

so thus it is written เลน (mid tone because ล is low cons. and น is long ending with long vowel)

we all know the word play เล่น which the อ่ is added making the tone falling and thus the 'eh' sound

So it seems the 'eh' sound will only be used when the tone is falling, otherwise 'ay' sound will be applied. Then it's just a matter of understanding the tone rules perfectly (getting there...eventually )

Can someone confirm/denounce this ....

cheers

[Tywais]

เ has a sound something between the "ea" in "Bear" ad the "a" in "Bake."

If there is a tone mark over the initial consonant of the syllable this vowel is mostly pronounced short like the "e" in "Hen", and when there is no tone mark it may be similarly shortened by placing the symbol ็ over the initial consonant. Examples:

เป็น - bpen - Is

เล็ก - lek - small

The symbol ็ is never used if there is a tone mark over the initial consonant, but if there is a tone mark this itself very often has the effect of shortening the vowel as follows.

เก่ง - geng - skillful

เล่น - len - to play

เส้น - sen - a thread

This is from my grammar book "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language". There are more details in it but need to take a break.

[Richard W]

The vowel can be explicitly marked as short using maitaikhu (e.g. เป็น) or sara a (e.g. เตะ). If there is no mark, the vowel is long (exception: เพชร). If there is no final consonant or sara a, the vowel is long.

Closed dead syllables with a tone mark are relatively rare and are frequently loans from English or Chinese. I will return to them later.

The group left now are live, closed syllables with a tone mark. This is where history comes in. Words with a tone mark are usually inherited Thai words, and in inherited words เ is short. In words taken from Sanskrit or Pali, the vowel is long. (There is a thesis that claims the contrast between long and short เ only developed as recently as the Rattanakosin era, i.e. in the past 200 years or so!) Consequently, closed live syllables with tone marks are generally short; live syllables with no marks are naturally long.

There are a few exceptions - words in standard Thai seems to have undergone a great many arbitrary changes of vowel length.

Originally dead syllables all had the same tone. The tone has come to vary in accordance with the vowel length and the class of the initial consonant. The exceptions need a tone mark. Thus for example, when English cake was borrowed, it took the combination of low class and mai tho to indicate a high tone - เค้ก. If the vowel were short, it would be เค็ก.

As to the quality of the vowels, long เ seems to have be a higher vowel than short เ, with the same start point as my RP 'ay' vowel.

There is a small group of P/S loanwords like เสน่ห์ ending in ห์ in which the final ห์ has given the final syllable the tone it would have if it were a dead syllable. When the vowel is long, the tone is explicitly marked by mai ek - no tone mark is needed for a short vowel in this case, for it is automatically in a dead syllable. This is the only mechanism I know for a P/S loanword to acquire a tone mark.

There is no such easy correlation between a tone mark and length for แ in closed syllables. The inherited words with แ had long vowels. There had been some shortening, partly associated with the tone, but it is very irregular.

[meadish_sweetball]

I cannot hear any such difference myself (right now I only have myself to try it out on though) - is it in the vowel length, openness of mouth, tongue position, or anything else? To me they sound the same apart from the final.

I hear a difference, and was taught there was a difference. เทพ slightly shorter/more relaxed, เท่ slightly longer and more tense. We both (I and that instructor) could be wrong though ...

No, after having checked with two Thai friends and GF, I think you are right.

The length difference is subtle, but it is there, as is a slight difference in vowel quality. It is not as pronounced and obvious as the difference between เลน and เล่น though.

[sabaijai]

I cannot hear any such difference myself (right now I only have myself to try it out on though) - is it in the vowel length, openness of mouth, tongue position, or anything else? To me they sound the same apart from the final.

I hear a difference, and was taught there was a difference. เทพ slightly shorter/more relaxed, เท่ slightly longer and more tense. We both (I and that instructor) could be wrong though ...

No, after having checked with two Thai friends and GF, I think you are right.

The length difference is subtle, but it is there, as is a slight difference in vowel quality. It is not as pronounced and obvious as the difference between เลน and เล่น though.

Good to know I've not been doing or hearing it wrong all these years.

[Rikker]

There is a small group of P/S loanwords like เสน่ห์ ending in ห์ in which the final ห์ has given the final syllable the tone it would have if it were a dead syllable. When the vowel is long, the tone is explicitly marked by mai ek - no tone mark is needed for a short vowel in this case, for it is automatically in a dead syllable. This is the only mechanism I know for a P/S loanword to acquire a tone mark.

Richard, can you elaborate on this some more? What other words besides เสน่ห์ are like this?

And what do you know about the origins of words with ห.หีบ การันต์, like เล่ห์, เทห์. I would like to know where they come from.

[Richard W]

There is a small group of P/S loanwords like เสน่ห์ ending in ห์ in which the final ห์ has given the final syllable the tone it would have if it were a dead syllable. When the vowel is long, the tone is explicitly marked by mai ek - no tone mark is needed for a short vowel in this case, for it is automatically in a dead syllable. This is the only mechanism I know for a P/S loanword to acquire a tone mark.

Richard, can you elaborate on this some more? What other words besides เสน่ห์ are like this?

And what do you know about the origins of words with ห.หีบ การันต์, like เล่ห์, เทห์. I would like to know where they come from.

Well, เท่ห์ 'body' (tonemark optional) clearly derives from P/S deha 'body' as the Royal Institute Dictionary says. เล่ห์ 'trick; similar to' is difficult. There's a formal similarity to Sanskrit leha 'licker', but a semantic connection is unlikely. It's similar to English 'like' but there's nothing in Indo-Iranian to back up the idea of a connection - I was thinking of something like PIE *leiHg. (เท่ห์ has the English cognate 'dough'.)

Another example is อุตส่าห 'diligence' < Sanskrit utsaaha, Pali ussaaha.

An unusual-looking example is เคราะห์ 'luck' < P/S g®aha 'planet, crocodile,...'

Now, in Khmer, final /h/ is pronounced, so I speculate that the Khmer pronuciation was successfully imitated for while, and thus these words (or the models where words are recently borrowed) actually did end in dead syllables. However, it's mere speculation.

[asd]

The World's Longest Place Name

Krungthep Mahanakhon Armorn Ratanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilokpop Noparatratchathani Burirom Udomratchanivet Mahasathan Amornpiman Avatarnsathit Sakkathattiyavisnukarmprasit, meaning the 'City of Angels', is known to the locals as Krungthep Mahanakhon. The rest of the world knows it as Bangkok, Thailand. However, it is not recognised by the Guinness Book of Records as the longest place name as it is not used on a daily basis by the locals.

The city with the longest name in common usage is in New Zealand. Taumatawhakatangihangakoauotamateturipukakapikimaungahoro-Nukupokaiwhenua kitanatahu translates as the'place where Tamatea, the man with the big knees, who slid, climbed and swallowed mountains, known as land-eater, played his flute to his loved one'. This is the place name recognised by the Guinness Book of Records.

[Neeranam]

However, if you pronounce 'ay' as a Scotsman, you will get more or less the right sound, since Scottish English typically does not have the same vowel glides as other English dialects.

The reason why some people choose to use English 'ay' for that sound, or write it 'tape', is because they are attempting to indicate that the vowel sound is long and not short. Basically, it is a tradeoff.

With 'tape', you get the wrong vowel quality (unless you're Scottish), but more or less the right vowel length.

Man, the problems I had when learning Thai at the start.

I had a strong Scottish accent.

When I said the 'bed' it came out like 'baed' so I was told. I taped myself and they were right.

To say bed properly, I had say it like 'bayd'. Whenever i said a word like "pleng', I had to say like I was reading 'plaeng'. Even today I sometimes get a blank look when saying some of these words.