Riverside Condo Problems

[Rancid]

Yeah, KrungThai still owns quite a few, in fact most of the former bulk purchases came from there, mostly lower floors and they seem to have kept the uppers. Though oddly they started to spend money to upgrade many of their units there, as to why was never clear to me (I don't have all the answers), odd behaviour for a bank that could of at the the time sold and recouped all their lost money, why keep them when they are technically not supposed to be in real estate? I heard they were for staff or other short term purposes, Hmm.

Look, many condos in CM saw a large number of farang buyers from the banks and they sucessfully changed the old committees and management and got the places running pretty well, Galae Tong, 103 Mor Shor etc. In Riverside the same thing happened, a coup was arranged to oust the old manager with that whole bunch of units. Many games involving the police and Immigration later ensued after that to deport the instigator. He did hang in for awhile and improve things and had a long term plan to upgrade the building, however his motives were monetary as he also owned quite a few units and planned on quite a few more through repossession. At the end of the day he was a scammer, however, his plans were value adding for everyone else as well, if he wasn't deposed in a supposedly illegal coup owners units would be worth a lot more money now. Under the current mob it will like Dracula at the blood bank yet again.

The ousted manager with the large number of properties supposedly had a lot of them on finance (Krung Thai, I don't know, but would be an interesting coincidence), they were desperate to get control of the kitty again to keep the payments up. At the coup there were apparently numerous idiot farang lined up and screaming with that person, some through ignorance and others presumably on the payroll like the so-called moderator. You can still see him in the lobby everday with the self acclaimed Farang Mafia trying to sell bar girls to new visitors at inflated prices (is that still called pimping?) or at the cheapo noodle shop out front. Class act indeed, so how long did the 30 pieces of silver last?

Great building, great potential, another Thailand story of greed and corruption by both farnags and Thais this time, the losers were the owners, most that still probably have the wrong story or live in some sort of ignorant bliss about the clean lobby.

To the "never buy in Thailand" poster: give that old song a break, so you can't afford to own and personalise a property so live in some rental dump and can be evicted at will, why should everyone here emulate that as a lifestyle choice? Some of us look for homes, not 4 grubby walls on short term lease. Riverside is one bad example basically only sunk by the action of stupid or greedy farangs but there are plenty of good ones and most people I've met are happy with their purchases. Thailand is mostly a great place to own property.

[OneZero]

Rancid,

Thanks for taking the time for that description of some of the root causes of the current turmoil at Riverside (to include the identification of both Thai & Farang investor scams & greed there). The procedure is to buy low at foreclosure, fix up, then sell at profit. Nothing wrong with that by itself, especially as it may benefit all owners there. Skybreeze Condo (the old 103 near CMU) benefited very much from that.

But frequently the investors profit depends upon pitching an inflated value of their units to those not thoroughly familiar with CM market prices (BKK or foreign buyers) and enticing them with dreams of a multitude of opportunities with non bargirl females in CM. I have seen & heard the pitch.

Edited October 6, 2012 by OneZero

[bristolgeoff]

if i had a apartment there i would be trying to sell it as it seems it is so corrupt.find somewhere else and get out of this fighting

[wanttobuyacondo]

Rancid, thanks.

Do you have information whether or not Krungthai pays the condo fees for the units they controll?

The "moderator" you mention, are you talking about a Dutch man?

The "scammer", are you talking about a Australian man?

To "cheeryble": I am sorry but your post is one of the weakest I have ever read. Number 3, 5 and 6 are just ridiculous. And yes, sometimes people on the sideline have much better ideas. Good managers/committees know and use that.

To "hellodolly": the committee bought new lobby furniture. It is house sofa's and nothing to do with lobby furniture for a hotel or condo. Difficult to (keep) clean (just as the, already broken, black tiles they put around the building last week) and very easy to damage. As for the model, it could be "Year 1938" just before World War II.

NOW IT SUCKS hellodolly, have a look.

I hold my breath when they start painting. The pics at the lobby show dark red, dark green, dark blue and more fancy colours for the corridors.

Jeezzz, HELP.

PS: bristolgeoff please buy my condo.

[amexpat]

To the "never buy in Thailand" poster: give that old song a break, so you can't afford to own and personalise a property

so live in some rental dump and can be evicted at will, why should everyone here emulate that as a lifestyle choice? Some of us look for homes, not 4 grubby walls on short term lease.

Riverside is one bad example basically only sunk by the action of stupid or greedy farangs but there are plenty of good ones

and most people I've met are happy with their purchases. Thailand is mostly a great place to own property.

Yes, of course, can't afford it. Why else wouldn't everyone live just like you do?

You must have seen my place: 4 grubby walls, ceiling falling in, not to mention the cobras chasing the rats all night.

Plenty of good purchases, that is. Rentals are all the same.

Up to you.

[hellodolly]

thanks for reminding me never to buy and rent only!

That is a policy I follow on any thing I buy no matter what country I am in. If I can not walk away from it I will not buy it. Mind you I am retired with a income sufficient to live on with a little bit left over for some trips and do not need to make more money.

I understand some of the problems they face in Riverside. In Canada I lived in and owned a town house. For five years I was the treasurer and am very familiar with the apathy of some of the owners. Along with the constant discontent of some of the owners. Once a year my books were audited by a out side auditor so there was always all the financial dealings available to all who were interested.

Several years ago My wife and I looked at the riverside with a eye towards renting. For personal reasons we choose not to. At the time we were told there was going to be a gym there. We were shown units for rent by some one from the staff. The lobby sucked but we could have lived with that. It was other little things that either I or the wife did not care for.

My advice rent there if it meets your standards. Over all I would say it was a nice place. But do not buy there. So far I have only seen one post that mentioned flood control has it flooded there?

Edited October 6, 2012 by hellodolly

[binjalin]

if i had a apartment there i would be trying to sell it as it seems it is so corrupt.find somewhere else and get out of this fighting

I sold mine awhile back and i would advise anyone else to do the same for a variety of reasons including those outlined here. The AGM was a joke and I'm afraid a 'well-meaning' but silly farang let the 'bad guys' in though the backdoor when the vote was taken and all sorts of 'points of order' were glossed over.

Edited October 6, 2012 by binjalin

[Rancid]

To the "never buy in Thailand" poster: give that old song a break, so you can't afford to own and personalise a property

so live in some rental dump and can be evicted at will, why should everyone here emulate that as a lifestyle choice? Some of us look for homes, not 4 grubby walls on short term lease.

Riverside is one bad example basically only sunk by the action of stupid or greedy farangs but there are plenty of good ones

and most people I've met are happy with their purchases. Thailand is mostly a great place to own property.

Yes, of course, can't afford it. Why else wouldn't everyone live just like you do?

You must have seen my place: 4 grubby walls, ceiling falling in, not to mention the cobras chasing the rats all night.

Plenty of good purchases, that is. Rentals are all the same.

Up to you.

You are right, my comments were not warranted. I can understand people preferring to rent, it is just that I have heard that mantra so often and have personally found it to be wrong. So when I see renters jumping into the buy or rent debate without having ever bought I assume the worst. In reality buying the right place is OK, as is renting the right place, just about selection really. My apologies, last night was beer night.

[Rancid]

I guess I am just annoyed about Riverside because it is potentially such a good building, the city is now growing south, owners should expect and already see in this boom substantial price increases. However for the sake of the thieving scammers and their either paid or bone ignorant minions that support them in shady AGMs the place is going to the dogs, well has been for quite a while.

I was going to buy there but found out in time what was going on, not a new story, but one that should have passed its use by date already. I knew someone that was offerred into the deal by a former committee (before they were ousted) and was brought up to date by them.

Lets's see if greed and inteligence can co-exist? Will they start to jazz the place up before this real estate bubble pops or will they miss it? As far as I know it is one person that will decide this, the owners have no say whatsoever as they voted back in the old guard and all the crap that comes with them from their previous years of corruption.

At any rate I think this topic is done, enough from me, probably said too much anyway, just as well I am now OS again.

[hellodolly]

I guess I am just annoyed about Riverside because it is potentially such a good building, the city is now growing south, owners should expect and already see in this boom substantial price increases. However for the sake of the thieving scammers and their either paid or bone ignorant minions that support them in shady AGMs the place is going to the dogs, well has been for quite a while.

I was going to buy there but found out in time what was going on, not a new story, but one that should have passed its use by date already. I knew someone that was offerred into the deal by a former committee (before they were ousted) and was brought up to date by them.

Lets's see if greed and inteligence can co-exist? Will they start to jazz the place up before this real estate bubble pops or will they miss it? As far as I know it is one person that will decide this, the owners have no say whatsoever as they voted back in the old guard and all the crap that comes with them from their previous years of corruption.

At any rate I think this topic is done, enough from me, probably said too much anyway, just as well I am now OS again.

Well you did bring up one point there that I think has been overlooked. That is the bubble bursting. The way the flood controls and normal drainage control is going in Bangkok it might be quite a while before the bubble bursts.

[Hillside4Phil]

I went to see some Condo for rent there yesterday and the lobby has information about the issues to do with Riverside, seeing what I saw the place does need a spruce up, the condo I saw was not worth the 8500 asking, it had an old unused home feel about it and spending more money to make it more cosy for me, was just not for me either and have found somewhere else that will suit my needs.

[Douggie Style]

Many years ago, when looking at a condo in Oz, the real estate agent said you don't want one in that building, I said 'why' he said a guy, with a portfolio of about 800 units, buys 51% of a run down block, giving him control of the body corporate then votes in a lot of special levies to improve the property. Effectively getting the other 49% to subside his renovations then sells out. .

However in Oz you can get legal redress where the body corporate powers are significantly abused, the overriding duty is to act in good faith for the body corporate interests.

So i suspect here your only real redress is in seeking a good lawyer or think of how to control the body corporate votes.

good luck, a tough bind

[cheeryble]

Latest on this:

KrungThai Bank owns a lot of condo's and business units at Riverside (never sold or repossessed).

It is said that they never pay the yearly condo fees on those units. Impossible to check as the manager doesn't want to show/open the books.

It is, however, a fact those units were used as proxys by the management and comittee in recent General Meetings.

If this is true voting results over the last meetings could be void I guess as it is against the constitution.

Rancid seems to know a lot. Can you check or confirm please?

You are suggesting that a major bank whose reputation is everything to their business would knowingly break the law by not paying condo fees and eventually pay all back fees plus punitive simple interest as per the Revised Condo Act of 20% per annum on all unpaid bills.....inescapable as they cannot ever sell without a letter from the manager which would be a recorded criminal act on both the manager's and the bank's part if fraudulent? This would open the bank management up to personal responsibility to a criminal offence also action by Krung Thai shareholders. Begs the question....what's in it for them? Sound realistic? Not to me. I don't see some bank man risking his career and pension like that.

As for the proxies what makes you think the Krung Thai Bank has no legal right to appoint proxies like any other owner? (though it may be possibile they have an internal policy not to vote or give proxies to vote.....something I doubt we can know).

[cheeryble]

Hello DallasFW

An extraordinary feat of generosity, to agonise how to represent some friends' gripes in a building 10,000 miles away, then take all to trouble to learn so very many little details and to write on their behalf!

A brief observation:

1 Like most others I have always found Riverside to be clean and well run and I know people who intend to live there all their lives so it must be OK and a quality hospital practically next door is a real trump card for some.

2. It is highly likely that large spendings over a certain amount, typically 100,000 baht, such as for your gym premises, need a general vote from 50%, if fails 33%, of owners. It is not a decision for the chairman, the juristic person, or the committee. You should check this.

3. Who says the proposed gym room is expensive? If there is cheaper space available why not propose it? Suppose the gym cost 1.5 or 2million all in. That would be ballpark a quarter percent of the owners total valuation which I'm guessing is maybe 800m฿. You think the tiny 1/4% wouldn't be more than reflected in the general attractiveness of the building in sales and rentals? (not pro or anti, just saying....) it may be true that most will not use a gym. That doesn't mean it is not worthwhile building to enhance the atmosphere and everyone's equity.

4. With new condos going up in CM the older buildings really need to kick themselves in the arse and do upgrades...... possibly like a gym. Older buildings have a great many advantages. At least Riverside residents, despite some committee aggro which is rather ubiquitous in condos, can see a history of a well kept well funded building in a great position with reasonable fees. Buy a new place and you can't know what will happen, except that your fees are much higher for some unfathomable reason. But the older ones need to strictly keep up maintenance AND appearance.

5. Old buildings will not "wear out". They will last forever if they are properly and systematically maintained. Do not skimp on this. Don't "spoil the ship for a halfpennyworth of tar".

6. The names you mentioned presumably own quite a few condos in Riverside. Presumably they have some degree of success. Why would they try to screw up their own building? Is it possible their ideas are better than yours?

ps

How's the weather in Dallas?

I like your post and would like to add one other attraction. Just around the corner across the street from a very good hospital is the Holiday Inn where during the day time they have a free songhtell to the Airport Mall and a return trip. It is sponsored by the Airport mall where if you are still into western foods they have a Tops store. Also a good mvie theatr

The lobby still sucks

Thankyou HelloDolly I had no idea about the shuttle to Airport Mall.

I have an elderly friend in Riverside. If you know.....what times does the shuttle go?

[cheeryble]

To "cheeryble": I am sorry but your post is one of the weakest I have ever read. Number 3, 5 and 6 are just ridiculous. And yes, sometimes people on the sideline have much better ideas. Good managers/committees know and use that.

Thankyou for your opinion.

Interestingly HelloDolly had exactly the opposite opinion and "liked my post" so perhaps you could give us a rational argument why you disagree with him?

I just read 3, 5, and 6 which you think are ridiculous and I stand by them 100%.

Here they are again:

A brief observation:

1 Like most others I have always found Riverside to be clean and well run and I know people who intend to live there all their lives so it must be OK and a quality hospital practically next door is a real trump card for some.

2. It is highly likely that large spendings over a certain amount, typically 100,000 baht, such as for your gym premises, need a general vote from 50%, if fails 33%, of owners. It is not a decision for the chairman, the juristic person, or the committee. You should check this.

3. Who says the proposed gym room is expensive? If there is cheaper space available why not propose it? Suppose the gym cost 1.5 or 2million all in. That would be ballpark a quarter percent of the owners total valuation which I'm guessing is maybe 800m฿. You think the tiny 1/4% wouldn't be more than reflected in the general attractiveness of the building in sales and rentals? (not pro or anti, just saying....) it may be true that most will not use a gym. That doesn't mean it is not worthwhile building to enhance the atmosphere and everyone's equity.

4. With new condos going up in CM the older buildings really need to kick themselves in the arse and do upgrades...... possibly like a gym. Older buildings have a great many advantages. At least Riverside residents, despite some committee aggro which is rather ubiquitous in condos, can see a history of a well kept well funded building in a great position with reasonable fees. Buy a new place and you can't know what will happen, except that your fees are much higher for some unfathomable reason. But the older ones need to strictly keep up maintenance AND appearance.

5. Old buildings will not "wear out". They will last forever if they are properly and systematically maintained. Do not skimp on this. Don't "spoil the ship for a halfpennyworth of tar".

6. The names you mentioned presumably own quite a few condos in Riverside. Presumably they have some degree of success. Why would they try to screw up their own building? Is it possible their ideas are better than yours?

If I may say as an ex committee member elsewhere it seems to me there will always be people seeing conspiracies and corruption and banging war drums in anger. Lots of "he says" "she says" or accusations about the Krung Thai bank being in some secret cabal with the manager. There may sometimes even be some valid basis for the argument, but I have seen cases where the committee was as honest as the day is long and it still happened.

One has to wonder if it is progressive, if one has lost the committee one wants, to throw every possible spanner in the works to grind things to a halt or to let go and just let the people who after all showed some ability in that they won the election get on and look after the building in which they themselves have a considerable interest. Hillside Condo has one small coterie completely controlling everything but the fact is the fees are low like Riverside yet the place is clean and well maintained. They gym has some real quality equipment and they are about to retile the pool. Not perfection with power all in one pair of hands (though they do actually garner the most votes) but they're highly experienced hands and it may be pretty damned good cost/reward to just let someone else do it all for you.

Edited October 7, 2012 by cheeryble

[Chicog]

During the last meeting, Immigration was invited, and they managed to scare off all the foreigners prior to the meeting's opening.

Lot of illegal immigrants or overstayers in that building, are there?

[scorecard]

Well, what could be done is that the Land Office could have a member of their staff attend meetings to see that they are conducted in accordance with the law. The duty should be rotated frequently to prevent the development of cosy relationships and the cost of doing this would be more than offset by the savings made in not having to argue about the legitimacy of AGMs and EGMs many of which are presently declared void on a technicality raised by whichever party feels it didn't get its own way.

Proxies, vote counting, the sending of invitations and notices and more are all subject to being challenged. I know of a case where the management refused to give co-owners who legitimately wanted to call an EGM, the most up to date list of addresses. On the advice of the Land Office, notice of the meeting was sent to the last known addresses (what other choice was there?) and within days of the meeting the management lodged an objection and had the meeting declared void.

I realise that this doesn't quite answer the OP's question but readers not involved the Riverside intrigue should be made aware of the all too common issues that plague condo owners. It's touted as a safe way to own your own home here but given that foreign ownership is limited to 49% and most Thais seem apathetic in the face of even the most flagrant abuse by management, the odds are stacked against you from the start. Add to that the scare tactics involving immigration, the tax department and even policemen brought in to hang menacingly around by the registration desk at meetings and you can see it's no fun.

Whatever you do, if you are buying into a condo don't take the word of vendor, agent or management that all is sweet and light.

Greenside has a good point about asking for a Lands Title officer to attend meetings.

I owned a condo in Bkk (I know that's not CM, but the laws are the same) which had lots of very serious problems including one Thai female committee member who paid the office staff to do things 'her way', and more (over several years three of these employees were sacked for stealing large amounts of common funds and monies paid by owners / tenants for monthly electricty bills etc).

The paid manager sacked for starting a project to replace a big ceiling without approval and the quotation he accepted was 4 times any reasonable quotation. He felt he was entitled and he said just as much in plain language.

Plus one farang who without reference to anybody brought in workmen to paint things (and more - actual changes to walls and more), his colour choice of course, plus several times the work wasn't completed, the farang stopped funding and the committee felt they had no option but to allocate common funds to get these projects finished.

And lots more very serious issues in regard to fire safety etc.

Then one of the new committee members discovered:

- You can request a Lands Office person to attend meetings and give details of the laws and regulations on the spot.

- You can request an officer from the gov't office which handles the laws regarding condos to do one-off or regular audits of all the books, documents etc. And to then attend meetings to distribute / explain their findings.

This happened and the list of errors, etc, the list of things which had proceeded without approvals was beyond belief. Serious action was taken (not much choice, because the gov't office was monitoring for follow up).

At the next general meeting one owned proposed that it become an internal 'law' of that condo that meetings could not proceed without the two gov't officers mentioned being present. A couple of committee members tried to fight this proposal but it was passed by 99% of those present.

This internal 'law' did change things a lot in that building.

Edited October 7, 2012 by scorecard

[onthedarkside]

post attacking another forum member removed.

[Rancid]

When I was a younger sprouter my dad bought into a gated community in Oz and I stayed there for a while. The owmers used to fight over the color of the flowers lining the driveway, it was serious warfare and I refused to be dragged into it all for the most solid of reasons...complete indifference. However one elderly lady did have a heart attack and died at one of the committee meetings after learning they were going with yellow.

I think I have some sort of a point here. If you just live in Riverside or other similar corrupt entities, just ignore all the goings on, it is usually those with a vested financial interests or speculators that fight it out for power to steal from the kitty, for the average punter who is just happy staying there it really isn't worth the aggravation, just enjoy life.

[cheeryble]

What are the condo fees at Riverside?

Aren't they about half of the new condo blocks, and yet there's a really large fund saved up in reserve?

Does this and the fact Riverside has always been full of residents say more about Riverside or it's new competitors?

Edited October 31, 2012 by cheeryble

[bristolgeoff]

all the problems they have,it seems that you should not touch it with a barge pole

[binjalin]

What are the condo fees at Riverside?

Aren't they about half of the new condo blocks, and yet there's a really large fund saved up in reserve?

Does this and the fact Riverside has always been full of residents say more about Riverside or it's new competitors?

the fund is only large as a bank had huge back-fees built up over many years and paid - I think about 20m baht

[johnmcc6]

Rule number one on living in Thailand...Don't mess with the locals! You will not win in the land courts or anywhere else unless you know someone bigger and more powerful than your opponent, It is madness to waste your time thinking ..."I know my rights". Enjoy the lifestyle. Get used to the way things are done here, Thai's hate nothing more than an uppity farang demanding his rights.This is not your country. Get used to it.

[cheeryble]

Rule number one on living in Thailand...Don't mess with the locals! You will not win in the land courts or anywhere else unless you know someone bigger and more powerful than your opponent, It is madness to waste your time thinking ..."I know my rights". Enjoy the lifestyle. Get used to the way things are done here, Thai's hate nothing more than an uppity farang demanding his rights.This is not your country. Get used to it.

Madness to mess with the locals?

Not necessarily so.

There was certainly a "revolution" in one condo in CM which ousted the manager who was part of the developer family or coterie.....definitely a hostile takeover. The place was taken over as per the law by a proper committee made of Thai and Farang (mostly farang) and has come up enormously. The former manager has not been seen for years. Other condos have replaced developers with committees too.

As for everyday life I have several times been paid for traffic accidents by Thais. Two of those times the police superintended the payment to me without any payment or hint of one. It's how they do it here avoiding the courts and works well, the driving license being held against the guy showing up and paying.

I've also heard of larger court cases including land being successful for the farang. One where a friend offered his girlfriend or wife to split the property, she refused, he went to court (can't remember the grounds) and he was awarded full ownership with an order to liquidate in a certain time (the funds going to him). Heard of other serious cases. Of course it all took a long boring time like all legal matters.

Edited November 2, 2012 by cheeryble