Water Pumps

[wimpy]

I found this website which has clearer and more detailed info on the electronic controller than the Pedrollo website.

http://castlepumps.com/pedrollo-easypress-pump-controllers-4239-0.html

[meatboy]

Hi wimpy thanks for that

As I live in Korat, Chang Mai might be a bit far to go but I'll inet the brand to see if they stock any near here

I assume the blue bit on top is a pressure relief valve

Tks again

Mike

what did you settle for after,the water pressure on our mooban in korat has been cut by half so it looks like having to get a tank and pump.i am leaning towards the pedrollo system that wimpy has.we have got an alfa pump that controls the garden fountain 3years and still goes well.

[chantsurfer]

Hey Naam and the other gurus here, I was in Global, poking my nose around the water pumps recently. I came across a small filter that was in the ag pipe section. A little filter got my attention. The inlet and out let was 1 inch, it has a 120 metal mesh filter.

On the 2 pumps that looked the same to me on the out side had LF-C ticked and the other had LF-D ticked.

I didn't get a pic. Are these used to separate sand pre the pump?

[Theboy]

I found this website which has clearer and more detailed info on the electronic controller than the Pedrollo website.

http://castlepumps.c...ers-4239-0.html

That looks perfect - can any explain why one should go to the trouble of pressure tanks (with their variable pressure) when this is available to screw strate onto a pump ?

[Pib]

I found this website which has clearer and more detailed info on the electronic controller than the Pedrollo website.

http://castlepumps.c...ers-4239-0.html

That looks perfect - can any explain why one should go to the trouble of pressure tanks (with their variable pressure) when this is available to screw strate onto a pump ?

I would guess just more electricity usage and pump run-time since the pump will basically always be on with a tap on. I expect there are plenty of opinions/pros/cons whether it's better or not for a pump to stay mostly in the run-mode with water running compared to cycling one and off when a pressure tank is used to supplement/replace the pump action when the pump is off.

You mention variable pressure like maybe it's a a real negative. Well, I guess it could be but for most uses I doubt it is noticeable or makes a difference in a proper sized pump system. By proper size, I mean one large enough to develop enough volume and pressure. I have one of those home pumps types which is basically a pump motor setting on top of a small pressure tank with its pressure cycle switch set to turn on the motor at 2.1bar/30psi and turn off at 2.8bar/40psi....this ends up giving an average 35psi of pressure...when I'm taking a shower the pump will kick on for about 5 seconds and kick off for about 5 seconds and continue that cycle through the shower. Although I know there is pressure variations going on I sure can't feel it in the shower nor can you really notice it with watching a sink facet turned on. Now if I use my yard water hose to shoot a stream of water as far as possible and just hold the hose steady I can see the stream distance vary about a foot as the pump cycles. But for the most part, the pressure variation is not an issue...and least on my system. Now, I will be the first to admit, if using a smaller pump like one that has a pressure range of say around 1.4bar/20psi pump turn on to 2.0ba//30psi pump turn off for an average of 25psi then the pressure variation becomes more noticeable. For me, I wouldn't consider such a pump properly sized because I don't think that is enough pressure flow....but if you ask my Thai mother-in-law that is great pressure because most of her life she didn't even have "pump/piped" water or the pressure was only around 5-10psi when village water system was working.

But with above being said, with electronics reliability/designed greatly improved and reduced costs over the years I fully expect constant pressure pumps, which basically uses an electronic controlled to turn a pump into a constant pressure pump, to become more of the norm. You see many such residential pumps on the market already although many still include a small pressure tank around 1 litter in size to minimize the pump cycling on and off a lot for small leaks like a leaky facet....but these types of constant pressure pumps generally still cost more than pump with small pressure tanks due to the added cost of the electronics controller....but that cost continues to come down...and I expect it won't be long before the controller cost will soon be cheaper than the cost of the small pressure tank. And from posts I've seen and experiences of some neighbors the many constant pressure pumps are still not as reliable as the pump-tank type pumps....I've had two neighbors which had had to have their constant pressure motor pumps rewound/replaced because they burnt up after approx 2-3 years...maybe due to the higher pump run-time...a.k.a, mileage put on the pumps.

And if my pump-tank type system every wears out to the point of needing replacement I will definitely give serious, serious consideration to a constant pressure type, but probably not the typical/module-based constant pressure pump type sold in many stores like Big C/Lotus/HomePro...but one with a completely separate controller matched up to a good quality pump instead of the pump/assembly/controller being designed as a proprietary module....this can help when repairs are needed as you are not tied to a proprietary design/a particular manufacturer of the pump or control module.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Pib

[Theboy]

Thanks for that but I would suggest the regular cycling of a pressure tank motor would cost more (start up of motor) than a steady running motor plus more load on the motor so more likely to break down ?

[Pib]

Possibly, but I doubt it in this case. The few tenths of a second you have the surge current to start up the motor is more than offset with the greatly reduced total run time. And the surge current is indeed brief as I've used a clamp-on ammeter to see the current surge. Say you run a tap for 10 seconds...on my pump-pressure tank type the motor runs for about 5 of those 10 seconds. On my neighbors constant pressure pump type his runs 9 to 10 of those 10 seconds. Plus the pump motor is designed to handle the brief startup surge. But it's not like the typical usage of a residential pump uses much electricity throughout the month anyway. Now if the pump is being run maybe for an hour or more each day like maybe to water a vegetable garden, feed a yard sprinkler system, etc.,then we are probably going to notice it on the electric bill.

Personally, I haven't run across any of my neighbors, friends, or in-laws who has had to have their pump motor replaced/rewound on a typical residential pump-pressure tank type like shown on the left below....but several of above folks who have the typical residential constant pressure pump type like shown on the right below have. But I have no doubt all types of pump motors fail.

And when it comes to the pressure electrical switches and air control/balance valve on both types they fail on both types after X-years. And I could see the pressure electrical switch on the pump-pressure tank type falling more since it will be clicking on and off more, but those switches can be bought at some Amorn stores for around 250-300 baht for a no-name switch (I was looking at some just yesterday at the Bangkok Bang Khae Mall Amorn Store) or at others stores get the OEM switch for around 700 baht....I've replaced my pressure switch at approx 4 years and the pump is almost 5 years old.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Pib

[Naam]

I found this website which has clearer and more detailed info on the electronic controller than the Pedrollo website.

http://castlepumps.c...ers-4239-0.html

That looks perfect - can any explain why one should go to the trouble of pressure tanks (with their variable pressure) when this is available to screw strate onto a pump ?

because this gadget is not perfect at all and cannot replace a simple pressure tank. it works by letting your pump cycle on and off a zillion times in less than one hour (sometimes i exaggerate a wee bit).

[lopburi3]

Nor is a shallow well pump/pressure tank where contacts for start/stop are sparking away into dust and the pressure tank is rusting and the air exchange valve is clogging and the noise is irritating and the pressure is only enough to get a dribble out of the shower. And yes a zillion times an hour is about what it sometimes sounds like.

[T_Dog]

Negita.... Regarding Hitachi pumps, we have been running a new 300GX model for six months and have already had to replace the pressure switch and a diaphragm air line. The pressure switch was not sealed properly and ants got inside. When I went to the pump store to buy a new switch, the salesman said "Hitachi No Good" and showed me a 4 Star switch. The contacts are twice the size and look to be of better metal. Also, the 300GX pump housing is all plastic. Take a hard close look at the pumps these days before you buy one as the corporate profit motive is hard at work. If I had to do it again, I would be looking at metal pump housings and companies with quality reputations.

[Pib]

Ain't it amazing how those little ants get into light switches, doorbell switches, pump switches, and just all kinds of switches...and they especially love those switches with the little light that helps you see the switch in the dark...I guess they like the warmth of the light and electric field.

[wimpy]

because this gadget is not perfect at all and cannot replace a simple pressure tank. it works by letting your pump cycle on and off a zillion times in less than one hour (sometimes i exaggerate a wee bit).

It does not act like that at all. It cycles much less than a pump with a pressure tank.

If you open a tap more than a hair, the pump turns on and stays on until you close the tap. If you open the tap just a hair, the pump slowly cycles on and off, similar to a pump with a nitrogen bladder tank.

I have been using one of these in our CM property (4 1/2 floors) for about 7 years with zero problems. I have used a lot of other conventional pumps in the past. Never had to rewind one, but have had to replace rubber bladder lined pressure tanks (the bladder eventually fails), mechanical pressure switches, and condensers.

The guy at the pump shop recommends the Italian Pedrollo unit over the Chinese ones, but it is about twice the price. Says it is more reliable.

[Naam]

If you open a tap more than a hair, the pump turns on and stays on until you close the tap.

and working because of its fixed rated flow capacity against pressure is neither using up costly amps nor more wear and tear? please explain the logic (if logic exists) that quote "opening a tap more than a hair" thus drawing 250milliliter per minute whereas the pump tries to supply 10-20 liters per minute.

we are not talking about a variable speed inverter pump which could do that job in a near perfect manner.

[wimpy]

As I said, I have been using one daily for over 7 years with zero problems. More than I can say for the Mitsu, ITC, and LG pumps I have used in the past. I am so satisfied, I have bought two more. One for my new house and one for supplying the orchard. How much for a variable speed inverter pump, and how long will it take to recoup the price difference in electrical savings?

[lopburi3]

And then you must define a 'hair'. But in fact most people, most of the time, will open considerable wider than a human hair so pump will be supplying a good deal of water. And be doing this without slamming of a solenoid stop valve every other second. Most people here do not have a sound proofed pump house and such noise it not appreciated by users or neighbors.

I have not had that good luck with Grundfos pumps (as what I could repair myself now requires factory) but would still prefer them to the previous Mitsubishi 405 models and the wife is much happier with good shower flow (and as you know that (happy wife) is a key factor in marriage life).

[Crossy]

I prefer this type of pump paired with an electronic controller. No need for a pressure tank with a rubber bladder that will eventually fail. If the tank goes dry, the controller automatically shuts the pump down. It pushes a good volume of water.

Wimpy, where did you get your controller, how much was it?

[wimpy]

Wimpy, where did you get your controller, how much was it?

See post #8. If I remember correctly, it was about 6000 for the pump and controller.

[wimpy]

And then you must define a 'hair'. But in fact most people, most of the time, will open considerable wider than a human hair so pump will be supplying a good deal of water.

For example, when I flip off the flow switch on the head my electric shower heater. It lets a dribble of water to keep flowing so the heater doesn't get damaged. In this situation, the pump slowly cycles on and off in a controlled fashion.

[Crossy]

Wimpy, where did you get your controller, how much was it?

See post #8. If I remember correctly, it was about 6000 for the pump and controller.

Cheers, we're in BKK so I'll be hunting a little closer to home

[lopburi3]

And then you must define a 'hair'. But in fact most people, most of the time, will open considerable wider than a human hair so pump will be supplying a good deal of water.

For example, when I flip off the flow switch on the head my electric shower heater. It lets a dribble of water to keep flowing so the heater doesn't get damaged. In this situation, the pump slowly cycles on and off in a controlled fashion.

Not sure if you are talking about the control on input to adjust pressure level (which does not shut off completely as only used for max setting to keep excessive flow under control) or are you talking about the type of unit is on/off push control on front (which I have found often fail). I use a quarter turn want type tap prior to input control only and there is no need for water flow to protect heater as it turns off with flow stopping. Have not has any issue and using this on five systems for several decades. Any unit rated multi point should work fine.

[wimpy]

Not sure if you are talking about the control on input to adjust pressure level (which does not shut off completely as only used for max setting to keep excessive flow under control) or are you talking about the type of unit is on/off push control on front (which I have found often fail). I use a quarter turn want type tap prior to input control only and there is no need for water flow to protect heater as it turns off with flow stopping. Have not has any issue and using this on five systems for several decades. Any unit rated multi point should work fine.

It is not a multi point unit. The instructions on this Hitachi say to turn off the power before shutting of the water supply to the unit.

It is not ok to completely turn off the water on the exit side. That can cause the unit to burst. That is why the valve shown below allows a tiny amount of water to keep flowing, allowing you to stop most of the flow while soaping up - without having to turn off the power to the unit.

My point was that the pump with electronic controller behaves well under this scenario.

Edited October 30, 2012 by wimpy

[lopburi3]

That is the model with (almost) shut off on shower unit - most showers do not have that and you just shut off the input. When using that unit (which a family member has) I just use input to control water as I do with other units and leave the shower head open and have not had any issues. Wife would never allow wasting water.

[cornishcarlos]

Interesting reading from everyone...

I have a couple of questions to add on the topic but 1st, why can't I upload photos from my IPad on here ? Below this reply box, the 'choose file' tab is not highlighted but the 'clear selection' and 'attach file' are !!

So now I will try to explain my situation without attaching a diagram

We have built a small coffee shop and toilet block. This buildings are on the same level, 25m apart.

Our well is situated 40m from the coffee shop, 3m below and is 7m deep. (water level is at about 4m).

Having read all this info plus other research, I am thinking that our best solution would be a pump and electronic control as Wimpy has, positioned next to the well. Will this provide enough pressure to a head of 4m at a distance of 40m+ ?

Initially I was going to install 2 tanks, pump water from the well to these and then use a Mitsubishi or similar WP type pump, but that seems to costly and complicated plus run the risk of the tanks being emptied and the WP pump running dry.

If I can work out how to upload a diagram, maybe that would explain the set up better, until then hope some advice is forth coming

Thanks

[wimpy]

I would ask for advice at a good pump shop. We use one of the Pedrollo pumps to deliver water all over our 2 rai garden. Flow is very good, but all the faucets are about the same height as the pump.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Thaivisa Connect App

[cornishcarlos]

Well I guess it just depends on pump rating...

We have another that pumps from our river more than twice the distance I require and the same height.

I would like to put the pump at the coffee shop though and not next to the well, so might have problem sucking water 40m horizontal as opposed to pushing it !!

[cornishcarlos]

I have found a pressure/flow control device, EasyPress 1 in Bangkok, price is 2600.

Does this sound about right ? Still less than half the price quoted on the link about them in the U.K...

Cheers

[wimpy]

I have found a pressure/flow control device, EasyPress 1 in Bangkok, price is 2600.

Does this sound about right ? Still less than half the price quoted on the link about them in the U.K...

Cheers

Sounds right.

[Artisi]

Interesting reading from everyone...

I have a couple of questions to add on the topic but 1st, why can't I upload photos from my IPad on here ? Below this reply box, the 'choose file' tab is not highlighted but the 'clear selection' and 'attach file' are !!

So now I will try to explain my situation without attaching a diagram

We have built a small coffee shop and toilet block. This buildings are on the same level, 25m apart.

Our well is situated 40m from the coffee shop, 3m below and is 7m deep. (water level is at about 4m).

Having read all this info plus other research, I am thinking that our best solution would be a pump and electronic control as Wimpy has, positioned next to the well. Will this provide enough pressure to a head of 4m at a distance of 40m+ ?

Initially I was going to install 2 tanks, pump water from the well to these and then use a Mitsubishi or similar WP type pump, but that seems to costly and complicated plus run the risk of the tanks being emptied and the WP pump running dry.

If I can work out how to upload a diagram, maybe that would explain the set up better, until then hope some advice is forth coming

Thanks

4 metres vertical and 40 metres horizontal is not a problem unless you are tight a_rse on the delivery pipe size, Thai's seem to love running 1/2" pvc for everything, in your case use 1 1/4" or ever 1 1/2" from the pump upto the house / building before reducing back to 1/2 ". Don't forget the vertical component of the pump if from the water level in the well to the highest point in the building - also allow for losses thru' any water heater.

[JoePai]

Interesting reading from everyone...

I have a couple of questions to add on the topic but 1st, why can't I upload photos from my IPad on here ? Below this reply box, the 'choose file' tab is not highlighted but the 'clear selection' and 'attach file' are !!

So now I will try to explain my situation without attaching a diagram

We have built a small coffee shop and toilet block. This buildings are on the same level, 25m apart.

Our well is situated 40m from the coffee shop, 3m below and is 7m deep. (water level is at about 4m).

Having read all this info plus other research, I am thinking that our best solution would be a pump and electronic control as Wimpy has, positioned next to the well. Will this provide enough pressure to a head of 4m at a distance of 40m+ ?

Initially I was going to install 2 tanks, pump water from the well to these and then use a Mitsubishi or similar WP type pump, but that seems to costly and complicated plus run the risk of the tanks being emptied and the WP pump running dry.

If I can work out how to upload a diagram, maybe that would explain the set up better, until then hope some advice is forth coming

Thanks

4 metres vertical and 40 metres horizontal is not a problem unless you are tight a_rse on the delivery pipe size, Thai's seem to love running 1/2" pvc for everything, in your case use 1 1/4" or ever 1 1/2" from the pump upto the house / building before reducing back to 1/2 ". Don't forget the vertical component of the pump if from the water level in the well to the highest point in the building - also allow for losses thru' any water heater.

Depends on the size of the pump outlet as to the size of the delivery pipe.

[Artisi]

Interesting reading from everyone...

I have a couple of questions to add on the topic but 1st, why can't I upload photos from my IPad on here ? Below this reply box, the 'choose file' tab is not highlighted but the 'clear selection' and 'attach file' are !!

So now I will try to explain my situation without attaching a diagram

We have built a small coffee shop and toilet block. This buildings are on the same level, 25m apart.

Our well is situated 40m from the coffee shop, 3m below and is 7m deep. (water level is at about 4m).

Having read all this info plus other research, I am thinking that our best solution would be a pump and electronic control as Wimpy has, positioned next to the well. Will this provide enough pressure to a head of 4m at a distance of 40m+ ?

Initially I was going to install 2 tanks, pump water from the well to these and then use a Mitsubishi or similar WP type pump, but that seems to costly and complicated plus run the risk of the tanks being emptied and the WP pump running dry.

If I can work out how to upload a diagram, maybe that would explain the set up better, until then hope some advice is forth coming

Thanks

4 metres vertical and 40 metres horizontal is not a problem unless you are tight a_rse on the delivery pipe size, Thai's seem to love running 1/2" pvc for everything, in your case use 1 1/4" or ever 1 1/2" from the pump upto the house / building before reducing back to 1/2 ". Don't forget the vertical component of the pump if from the water level in the well to the highest point in the building - also allow for losses thru' any water heater.

Depends on the size of the pump outlet as to the size of the delivery pipe.

Pipe size can be anything you want it to be, it has nothing to do with the pump outlet size.

What governs pipe sizes is the friction loss thru' the pipe work, smaller the pipe higher the friction loss for the same flow and length of pipe - friction loss thru pipes changes D1 /D 2 ^5.

For example 5gpm thru 1/2" pipe has a head loss of 45ft / 100ft - thereas 5gpm thru 1 1/2" has a head loss of 0.03 ft / 100ft.

Stands to reason, if you need more flow and pressure use larger pipes.