How Long Are Concrete Condo Bldgs Expected To Last?

[chivo]

No clear answer from a few google searches. Any engineers/architects on here?

[yoslim]

The tall buildings like view talays in pattaya seem to use a better quality concrete than the 8 floor mushrooms popping out everywhere

[jbrain]

How Long Are Concrete Condo Bldgs Expected To Last?

You should have included in your question if you mean in general or in Thailand. I guess there is several decades difference in the answer.

[chivo]

Fair comment. I did mean Thailand. BKK more specifically. Lets say a concrete condo built in approx 1990....

[trogers]

The structure of the building will last longer than the economic life of the condo. A major amount of money will be required to replace M&E services of the building, such as pumps, pipes and elevators, etc after the first 30 years. The building will be deemed obsolete after 60-70 years and should be tore down and the land redeveloped.

[cheeryble]

The structure of the building will last longer than the economic life of the condo. A major amount of money will be required to replace M&E services of the building, such as pumps, pipes and elevators, etc after the first 30 years. The building will be deemed obsolete after 60-70 years and should be tore down and the land redeveloped.

More or less agree with our expert TRogers.......that the building structure, as long as it is maintained, will last indefinitiely (check out the bunkers around Germany, harder than ever, and the south coast of England or to go back much further the Napoleonic Martello Towers or the Roman aqueducts).

Only slightly disagree in that I'd say his major expense would actually be spread over quite some years, so wouldn't appear particularly major and mostly or all be done from fees. Pumps, and pipes and electrics are in dedicated columns and not expensive to replace, they and outside horizontal surfaces and tiling will have to be redone maybe every couple of decades....but not all at once, probably staggered. Cast iron piping from the early 90s condos has already been mostly replaced by plastic as it has started rusting internally. It's cheap to do, and no more rust in future.

Lifts will be fine with replacement parts and may eventually need a complete replacement as he says but they're fitting existing shafts and it's small beer as a %age of the total equity of the building (+\- 1%). Lift work will of course be foreseen and funding hopefully accrued gradually not as a jolt.

In any case all this work is amazingly economical in shared units like a condominium compared to single unit housing.

BTW all condo buildings must by law be structurally surveyed annually and anything which could affect the building's integrity will be noted so it can be dealt with).

After many many decades, perhaps the 60 or 70 years that TR suggests, the nature of things is likely to have changed. The condo is now likely to be very central in a hugely grown metropolis and prices will have soared. At some point it will make economic sense for the building to be replaced with something much higher end, and probably with many more stories......probably at huge profit to co-owners.

Edited October 7, 2012 by cheeryble

[rakman]

A lot depends if the concrete was made with clean sand or beach sand. Salt content in beach sand will degrade the concrete over time. Not sure how a high rise will respond.

[chivo]

A couple really good answers. Appreciate it guys.

[cheeryble]

A lot depends if the concrete was made with clean sand or beach sand. Salt content in beach sand will degrade the concrete over time. Not sure how a high rise will respond.

Up here on CM saw a couple of UBC TV guys trying to make the four little holes for one of their dishes (the building over 20 years old, unroofed columns, and of bog-standard quality).

They had moronically chosen a support column instead of the rendered brickwork in between.

The concrete was so hard it rang as they tried to hammer drill.

They learned their lesson.

Edited October 8, 2012 by cheeryble

[hearditallbefore]

It also largely depends on if the builders used the correct amount/size of rebar, and if it the cracks leak. One of the most widely used scams builders use here is to short change the buyer on quality and amount of materials that were quoted. Especially rebar, as it is expensive (relative) and can be used on their own projects.

[trogers]

It also largely depends on if the builders used the correct amount/size of rebar, and if it the cracks leak. One of the most widely used scams builders use here is to short change the buyer on quality and amount of materials that were quoted. Especially rebar, as it is expensive (relative) and can be used on their own projects.

Most cheating in quality and quantity of building materials occur in small projects with lax supervision. Condo projects would have the size to engage proper CM and use ready-mixed concrete instead of site mixed.

[cheeryble]

It also largely depends on if the builders used the correct amount/size of rebar, and if it the cracks leak. One of the most widely used scams builders use here is to short change the buyer on quality and amount of materials that were quoted. Especially rebar, as it is expensive (relative) and can be used on their own projects.

Most cheating in quality and quantity of building materials occur in small projects with lax supervision. Condo projects would have the size to engage proper CM and use ready-mixed concrete instead of site mixed.

You took the words out of my mouth ha-ha!

[hearditallbefore]

It also largely depends on if the builders used the correct amount/size of rebar, and if it the cracks leak. One of the most widely used scams builders use here is to short change the buyer on quality and amount of materials that were quoted. Especially rebar, as it is expensive (relative) and can be used on their own projects.

yeah, we all know how great thai supervision on projects is ha ha ha good one! Anyway, back to the OP, also care must be taken when pouring in hot, humid weather to avoid cracks.

Most cheating in quality and quantity of building materials occur in small projects with lax supervision. Condo projects would have the size to engage proper CM and use ready-mixed concrete instead of site mixed.

You took the words out of my mouth ha-ha!

[theslime]

It also largely depends on if the builders used the correct amount/size of rebar, and if it the cracks leak. One of the most widely used scams builders use here is to short change the buyer on quality and amount of materials that were quoted. Especially rebar, as it is expensive (relative) and can be used on their own projects.

Most cheating in quality and quantity of building materials occur in small projects with lax supervision. Condo projects would have the size to engage proper CM and use ready-mixed concrete instead of site mixed.

Even Premix can be duffed at the Plant.

[Naam]

Fair comment. I did mean Thailand. BKK more specifically. Lets say a concrete condo built in approx 1990...

to be more specific let's say "concrete condos" do not exist. most buildings in Asia are constructed with concrete skeleton (pillars and floors), for outside and inside walls a variety of bricks is used. maintained properly and technical feature upgraded they could last a century or much longer. evidence are buildings in Europe which are several centuries old.

[trogers]

It also largely depends on if the builders used the correct amount/size of rebar, and if it the cracks leak. One of the most widely used scams builders use here is to short change the buyer on quality and amount of materials that were quoted. Especially rebar, as it is expensive (relative) and can be used on their own projects.

Most cheating in quality and quantity of building materials occur in small projects with lax supervision. Condo projects would have the size to engage proper CM and use ready-mixed concrete instead of site mixed.

Even Premix can be duffed at the Plant.

This is the reason sample cylinders are collected for each major delivery and pour of premix, to be tested for 7 and 28-day strengths. In addition, the specifications will stipulate the min. 28-day strength of the concrete. If the samples fail to achieve the specified strength, the poured structural elements will have to be hacked off and replaced.

[FalangBaa]

As little as 20 years, if the construction quality is very poor. Up to 40 years with really high quality construction. However, the extreme climate of Thailand (extreme heat coupled with extreme humidity and extreme rainfall events) is not conducive at all to a prolonged lifetime of a condo-type building, and developers always have the temptation to cut corners and build on the cheap. Most of them do yield to that temptation. Consider anything over 25 years to be a bonus. I've seen condos that look very shabby after 10 years, which would mean that if you decide to sell it, you could get less than what you paid for it. This is just one of many reasons why it's always more prudent to rent in Thailand, even in the very long term, rather than buying anything. There are too many unknowns. You could end up selling for less than you paid, or you might decide to leave Thailand for a variety of reasons. Renting in Thailand is so cheap and easy. I was renting a nice new condo in Phuket for 10,000 baht a month. The selling price of identical condos in the same building was 2.5 million baht. You could rent it for 21 years for the same price as buying it. Why buy, when you can't even be sure that you'll make any profit? The supply in Thailand greatly exceeds the demand. This economic rule applies to housing, labour, girlfriends and many other commodities, because costs in Thailand are so low. Supply always exceeds demand. That's not conducive to rising prices, except in the case of girlfriends/wives. If you were buying a condo in e.g. Singapore or Hong Kong, you'd definitely make a nice profit. In Thailand? Unknown.

Edited October 8, 2012 by FalangBaa

[cheeryble]

As little as 20 years, if the construction quality is very poor. Up to 40 years with really high quality construction. However, the extreme climate of Thailand (extreme heat coupled with extreme humidity and extreme rainfall events) is not conducive at all to a prolonged lifetime of a condo-type building, and developers always have the temptation to cut corners and build on the cheap. Most of them do yield to that temptation. Consider anything over 25 years to be a bonus. .

As for the maximum 40 years, and remembering these are buildings with "really high quality construction", a world full of concrete engineers is waiting in fear and trepidation, because you will be throwing their world into turmoil. No-one will turn up for work in sweltering Singapore. The Insurers Society of Thailand wil have to completely downgrade their estimated lives for concrete buildings.

Will the extremely hard and more-impregnable-than-ever bunkers in Germany, not to mention normal concrete high rises there, suddenly start falling apart due to the even more extreme temperature variations, extreme cold, and much longer rain duration?

"developers always have the temptation to cut corners and build on the cheap. Most of them do yield to that temptation. "

So intelligent men with a record of success who usually build a series of large buildings will risk everything financially. They'd conspire with a multimillion $ concrete company like CPAC or อินทรีย์ both of them risking their reputation. If CPAC (a member of the huge Siam Cement Group) or อินทรีย์ got caught out despite having laboratories at every facility to ensure their reputation their mighty business would collapse overnight. If the developer got caught out he would be stuck with a completely unsellable building and go to jail.

Hmmmm.....doesn't sound feasible.....but no doubt you have multiple evidence to match your "most do yield" accusation (please don't tell us about a two storey shophouse in Isaan which got built by the pooyay's cousin with a 3hp cement mixer), or maybe you've been banging or head against.a concrete column too many....

Edited October 8, 2012 by cheeryble

[FalangBaa]

As little as 20 years, if the construction quality is very poor. Up to 40 years with really high quality construction. However, the extreme climate of Thailand (extreme heat coupled with extreme humidity and extreme rainfall events) is not conducive at all to a prolonged lifetime of a condo-type building, and developers always have the temptation to cut corners and build on the cheap. Most of them do yield to that temptation. Consider anything over 25 years to be a bonus. .

As for the maximum 40 years, and remembering these are buildings with "really high quality construction", a world full of concrete engineers is waiting in fear and trepidation, because you will be throwing their world into turmoil. No-one will turn up for work in sweltering Singapore. The Insurers Society of Thailand wil have to completely downgrade their estimated lives for concrete buildings.

Will the extremely hard and more-impregnable-than-ever bunkers in Germany, not to mention normal concrete high rises there, suddenly start falling apart due to the even more extreme temperature variations, extreme cold, and much longer rain duration?

"developers always have the temptation to cut corners and build on the cheap. Most of them do yield to that temptation. "

So intelligent men with a record of success who usually build a series of large buildings will risk everything financially. They'd conspire with a multimillion $ concrete company like CPAC or อินทรีย์ both of them risking their reputation. If CPAC (a member of the huge Siam Cement Group) or อินทรีย์ got caught out despite having laboratories at every facility to ensure their reputation their mighty business would collapse overnight. If the developer got caught out he would be stuck with a completely unsellable building and go to jail.

Hmmmm.....doesn't sound feasible.....but no doubt you have multiple evidence to match your "most do yield" accusation (please don't tell us about a two storey shophouse in Isaan which got built by the pooyay's cousin with a 3hp cement mixer), or maybe you've been banging or head against.a concrete column too many....

You're so incredibly naive. You fail to realize that the fuel this country's economic engine runs on is corruption, as is the case for every Third World nation.

Edited October 8, 2012 by FalangBaa

[FalangBaa]

Fair comment. I did mean Thailand. BKK more specifically. Lets say a concrete condo built in approx 1990...

to be more specific let's say "concrete condos" do not exist. most buildings in Asia are constructed with concrete skeleton (pillars and floors), for outside and inside walls a variety of bricks is used. maintained properly and technical feature upgraded they could last a century or much longer. evidence are buildings in Europe which are several centuries old.

Portland cement, which was the first concrete, was only invented in 1824. Your so-called "evidence" of European buildings which are several centuries old were not constructed out of concrete. In concrete terms, this means that your 100-year argument is more full of holes than a breeze block.

[jbaldwin]

Fair comment. I did mean Thailand. BKK more specifically. Lets say a concrete condo built in approx 1990...

to be more specific let's say "concrete condos" do not exist. most buildings in Asia are constructed with concrete skeleton (pillars and floors), for outside and inside walls a variety of bricks is used. maintained properly and technical feature upgraded they could last a century or much longer. evidence are buildings in Europe which are several centuries old.

Portland cement, which was the first concrete, was only invented in 1824. Your so-called "evidence" of European buildings which are several centuries old were not constructed out of concrete. In concrete terms, this means that your 100-year argument is more full of holes than a breeze block.

The Coliseum was mainly contructed of concrete. I think that was built before 1824.

No bank would grant a mortgage on a condo unit if its 20-40 years was a realistic estimate of useful life.

[cheeryble]

The Coliseum was mainly contructed of concrete. I think that was built before 1824.

My last place in pouring wet England had walls of "bungaroosh" which was a mixture of half bricks, flint, and whatever was handy, all stuck together with lime mortar, which is so soft you can dig it with a penknife. The roof had scant overhang so they were often wet. That building was from 1840 and had never been renovated. I renovated it fully even took the whole roof off.......but I had to do nothing to the walls but paint them and fill to the new slate roof.

The amazing compression strength of concrete with the amazing tensile strength of steel when combined in a reinforced beam is truly a wonder.

Almost a miracle that their thermal expansion is so similar, and so useful that if a crack enables water ingress somewhere and it gets to the point the rebar rusts the expansion of the rust causes very visual "blowing" of the surface making the necessity for a (very rare) repair unmissable. Happily that rare rust is itself usually a protective layer.

I could almost think it was a sign.........(drops to his knees to the sound of a choir)

[David006]

interesting question....

Expected to last?

Well I would think that if the Edistone lighthouse is anything to go by which used older formula concrete,would think most concrete structures will still be here long after the last episode of Coronation Street.( Google tells us that EL outlasted the rock foundation...seems John Smeaton invented underwater curing concrete in mid 18th century.......the Roman Pantheon made of older formula concrete is still there too...)

Don't think that specifically knocking Thai construction standards/quality is that relevant , shoddy construction standards, poorly formulated concrete and adverse environment anyplace will surely affect the life of any structure?

Interesting history/timeline of concrete:

http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/concrete/hist.html

[Khun Jean]

It is all about the foundation. The concrete will only get harder with time.

Asking how do you check for a good foundation would be giving you more accurate answers about a buildings expected lifetime.

Bangkok is basically a swamp, so anything without a proper foundation has a lifetime of about 40-50 years.

That would be around 75% of the buildings. People still stay in them anyway so the question should also include 'according to whose definition of lifetime'. Being underwater with every rainfall is that past or still in its lifetime.

Then when a concrete buildings windows, walls, stairs, plumbing, electricity, elevator etc are starting to fail is that still within its lifetime or already way past its lifetime. At least 75% of the buildings would be past their lifetime with that criteria.

My view is that most condominium buildings will have a lifetime of about 30-40 years. After that time the building can still be strong but it will be unlivable (foreigner criteria) because of how maintenance is done. The high end condo's would have less of that problem as maintenance fees can be collected and are probably used correctly.

[Jitar]

The service life of a reinforced concrete structures can be much greater than 40 years providing they are well designed and constructed, not in an aggressive (e.g marine) environment, not over loaded and maintained. There are specialist engineers who deal with managing aging Reinforced Concrete structures but they tend to work with industrial structures, bridges and power plants etc. Attack of concrete by chlorides and corroding rebars (concrete cancer) are the usual issues.

Construction quality in Thailand is not perfect but large buildings are significantly better than smaller structures. High rise buildings are specifically designed and the structural design includes redundancy, partly to take account of construction standards and quality variation. Site level corruption is a factor but like construction elsewhere quality control and layers construction management minimize this to a degree. In Thailand higher level corruption is more difficult but this does not necessarily effect the construction quality. .

Khun Jean is correct in that foundations are important but it is more about the foundation design being appropriate for the ground conditions than hardness. Any building big or small with inadequate foundations would have structural issues long before 40 years.

Demolition of large buildings because of structural issues is not common in Thailand. There have been cases elsewhere where building construction quality has been so bad that the building has collapsed (Korea and India come to mind). Fatigue can play a part but failures like this are mainly load related not age related.

In reality the useable life of a building like a Condo is normally determined by factors other than the life of the structure. E.G. how well it is maintained, the development of the local area and the desirability of the location etc. If the building is not well maintained, or the area becomes unattractive, the Condo slowly looses appeal and slips downmarket or into low occupancy until it is worth redeveloping.