Foreigners Warned Of Saturday's Anti-Thaksin rally

[sierra01]

There where several videos shot and we watched them later in the confides of our homes.

They where taken to our overseas destinations when we visited them.

If anything does happen tomorrow, will CAT 'accidentally' close the international gateway? In 1992, it wouldn't have been easy to send video out, etc. but these days, it can be on the net in minutes.

I thought all the news boys use satellite these days, as they're filming it goes straight up and away?

[sriracha john]

Army Chief General Sondhi Boonyaratglin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน) said that it is unlikely that the insurgents can carry out attacks in Bangkok as they are not familiar with the areas

Such a wily and plotting General...

This is a deliberate ploy by the General to make such buffonish remarks as the absurd above statement. By intentionally trying to sound like a complete moron by spewing nonsense, he lessens people's confidence in the Army to such a degree, they'll be afraid to come.

When the people read his lunatic comments they'll question how well the Army is able to control themselves in the situation.

They'll think, "This idiot could quite easily shoot me, by unintential fire, from his stupidity."

end result... few attendees at the rally

Pretty good one there, General...

but,

I got you all figured out....

We're on to you...

[sriracha john]

Foreign Minister indicated that the US' warning to tourists against approaching the rally venue tomorrow is normal.

Foreign Affairs Minister Kantathi Supamongkol (กันตธีร์ ศุภมงคล) indicated the US Embassy’s warnings for American tourists against approaching the rally venue on February 4 is considered normal.

Dr. Kantathi said that the US Embassy has issued warnings for American tourists against approaching the mass rally planned by Mr. Sondhi Limthorngkul (สนธิ ลิ้มทองกุล) on February 4 at the Royal Plaza. However, he said that the warning is normal, adding that no country wants its citizens to get involved with political rally in other countries. He added that he hoped no violence will occur in this rally, but said that the government will not have to give special explanations on this case, as he believed the US will understand. He added that the rally is similar to the demonstrations in Chiang Mai against the Thai-US FTAs talks.

Yep... the warning played right into Thaksin's hands with that one...

but a different take on the effects on tourism is reported from the actual travel-related businesses.

It's interesting that the tourism sector appears to feel the need to be addressed here so quickly when it seems distasteful to the tourists themselves that it is placed as a priority. Same as the Samui murder upsetting many that the tourism issue came up so quickly.

========================================================

Huge police force to keep eye on rally

Sondhi to reveal his protest plans today

Some 3,000 city police will be deployed to keep law and order at an anti-government rally planned for tomorrow at the Royal Plaza by media firebrand Sondhi Limthongkul and his allies. Another 10,000 police will also be on stand-by during the demonstration.

Back-up forces from the Crime Suppression Division will be called in if the rally turns violent, police sources said yesterday.

The demonstration is scheduled to kick off at 1pm tomorrow.

Mr Sondhi plans to conclude the rally by submitting a petition to His Majesty the King through chief Privy Councillor Gen Prem Tinsulanonda.

The petition will call for constitutional amendments and royal intervention to have Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra ousted from office.

Other sources said the rally is expected to be joined by about 50,000 loyal fans of Mr Sondhi's Thailand Weekly talk show, up to 80,000 teachers, farmers from the Northeast, opponents of the Thai-Malaysian gas pipeline project, followers of revered monk Luangta Maha Bua, opponents of a potash mining venture in Udon Thani, state electricity workers, and many other people.

A source close to Gen Prem said the privy councillor would be at his Si Sao Theves residence tomorrow, but it remained unclear whether he would come out to accept Mr Sondhi's petition to the King.

Army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin has ordered major army units in Bangkok to gather intelligence and put military police and anti-riot teams on stand-by.

However, Gen Sonthi said the military would not take any action unless the situation went out of police control and a state of emergency had to be declared.

A source close to Mr Sondhi said the Manager daily newspaper founder and his key supporters planned to make the demonstration a peaceful one, but they were also ready for any consequences should the government decide to quell the protest by force.

Mr Sondhi will hold a press conference today at Baan Phra Arthit, the Manager headquarters, to talk about the rally.

The source also said many pro-government people were flocking to Bangkok from the North, although government spokesman Surapong Suebwonglee had earlier mentioned a government ban on such groups coming to Bangkok for fear they might clash with anti-government demonstrators.

Opposition Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva warned the government to exercise restraint in dealing with the crowds at the rally or the prime minister would have to take responsibility if violence flared up.

Agriculture and Cooperatives Minister Sudarat Keyuraphan said members of some agricultural cooperatives and other farm groups wanted to come to Bangkok to show their moral support for Mr Thaksin, but the ministry had asked them to abandon such plans.

Some agricultural officials said they had been asked to join a sign-up campaign, allegedly initiated by Khunying Sudarat, to show moral support for the prime minister.

Damrong Phidet, head of the National Parks, Plant, and Wildlife Conservation Department, denied news reports that forestry workers have been mobilised to stage an anti-Sondhi rally.

BANGKOK POST

Edited February 3, 2006 by sriracha john

[charles]

Army Chief General Sondhi Boonyaratglin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน) said that it is unlikely that the insurgents can carry out attacks in Bangkok as they are not familiar with the areas

Such a wily and plotting General...

Wow! If this is the level of intellect of the "Army Chief" then God know what his subordinates will be like. All bets are surely off if they are out on the streets!

Edited February 3, 2006 by charles

[Jai Dee]

Here's a lengthy article from Bloomberg.com: Asia...

Thailand's Thaksin Faces His Biggest Anti-Government Protest

Feb. 3 (Bloomberg) -- A year after winning Thailand's most decisive election victory in decades, Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra faces increasing dissent, falling popularity and the largest anti-government demonstrations since he came to power.

As many as 100,000 protesters will gather in central Bangkok tomorrow in a rally that prompted the U.S. Embassy to warn its citizens to stay away from the area.

Critics of the 56-year-old billionaire premier are angered by a share sale that earned his family a tax-free $1.9 billion last month. They also oppose plans to place public school teachers under the authority of local administrators and to sell shares in public utilities. Confidence in the government last month fell to its lowest in 10 months, a university poll found.

``It's a major political miscalculation on his part,'' said Chris Baker, the author of Thaksin: The Business Of Politics In Thailand.'' ``He's going to be pursued by people on this.''

Tomorrow, as many as 3,000 Thai police will be deployed to maintain public order, the U.S. Embassy said in a statement e- mailed to Americans living in the capital. Groups critical of protest organizer and government critic Sondhi Limthongkul may confront demonstrators, the e-mail said.

Thaksin, whose three-quarter majority was the most decisive election victory since Thailand became a constitutional monarchy in 1932, is also battling slowing economic growth. The Thai economy expanded an estimated 4.5 percent in 2005, according to the central bank, down from 6.1 percent a year earlier, on rising oil prices. It may expand as little as 4.75 percent this year, the bank said Jan. 30.

Confidence Slumps

Confidence in the government fell to 97.63 points in January from 99.99 in December, Suan Dusit Rajabhat University said on its Web site. That was the lowest since the state-owned university started the index in April 2004.

That slump is damping investor confidence and threatens to crimp a rally that has driven the nation's benchmark stock index up as much as 14 percent in the past three months. The SET Index was up 0.32 points at 744.86 at 11 a.m. in Bangkok, after losing as much as 1 percent earlier. For the week, the index has lost 2.5 percent and is set for its second weekly decline in three.

``The market is dominated by local investors and local investors tend to worry about political matters,'' said Lance Depew, who helps manage about $250 million for a hedge fund at Quest Capital Ltd. in Bangkok.

The Thai baht, which had risen 4.5 percent against the dollar in 2006, is set for its first weekly loss in five. It was down 0.8 percent at 39.31 at 9:13 a.m. in Bangkok.

`Not Worried'

Thaksin, who has led Thailand since 2001, is hitting back at critics. ``I'm not worried,'' he said this week. ``We can't just do everything that a minority is asking for as the majority is still expecting us to work for them.''

Criticism of the government increased last month when Thaksin's family, named Thailand's fourth-richest by Forbes magazine in 2005, sold its 49.6 percent stake in Shin Corp., which controls Advanced Info Service Pcl, Thailand's biggest mobile phone operator, its sole satellite operator, a television network and a half share in budget airline Thai AirAsia.

The sale, to Temasek Holdings Pte, a Singapore government investment agency, was the biggest corporate takeover in Thailand's history and netted the family 73.3 billion baht ($1.9 billion) -- exempt from capital gains tax because the transaction went through Thailand's stock exchange.

Reality TV

The stake was sold ``so there won't be criticism of conflicts of interest,'' Thaksin told reporters three days after he wrapped up a week-long reality television show where he lived in a tent to mentor civil servants tackling poverty in one of the country's poorest provinces.

The Thaksin family has denied any wrongdoing, acknowledging only that they incorrectly filled out a form on one transaction leading to the Temasek sale.

Protest organizer Sondhi, co-host of talk show ``Thailand This Week,'' which was banned from state television in September, has taken criticism of Thaksin and his cabinet into Bangkok's parks and streets with rallies and marches since November. The rally tomorrow is near a statue of King Rama V, on the same road as Sanam Luang, site of past protests including a 1976 military crackdown on a student rally that left dozens dead or wounded.

Mass protests have altered Thai politics on three occasions in recent history. In May 1992, General Suchinda Kraprayoon, who was a leader of a military coup a year earlier, had to quit as prime minister after King Bhumibol Adulyadej intervened to stop violence that saw soldiers kill at least 43 people when they opened fire on demonstrators who requested Suchinda's departure.

In October 1976, a period of democracy started three years earlier ended brutally when troops and militias cracked down on students gathered at Bangkok's Thammasat University. And in October 1973, Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn, a military dictator, was ousted in a popular revolt after soldiers shot at protesters. That violence killed at least 77 and left hundreds wounded.

Former Thaksin ally Sondhi drew parallels between his campaign against the premier and these earlier clashes on his Web site in December.

[george]

Here it is, brief summary:

The demonstration is scheduled to kick off at 1pm tomorrow.

Mr Sondhi plans to conclude the rally by submitting a petition to His Majesty the King through chief Privy Councillor Gen Prem Tinsulanonda.

The petition will call for constitutional amendments and royal intervention to have Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra ousted from office.

Doesn't look good for Dr. Thaksin.

[sriracha john]

Like rats leaving a sinking ship.... his Culture Minister (and high member of TRT) has just resigned:

Uraiwan resigns, undermines Thaksin

(dpa) - Thailand's minister of culture - the wife of the leader of a powerful faction within the ruling Thai Rak Thai party (TRT) - resigned on Friday, further undermining the stability of Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's government, analysts said.

Culture Minister Uraiwan Thienthong, the wife of veteran politician Sanoh Thienthong who leads the Wang Nam Yen faction in the TRT, said she had decided to resign for several reasons including the decline in political morality.

"I can't understand the current state of political etiquette and morality," Uraiwan told reporters. "A politician must have morals."

Edited February 3, 2006 by sriracha john

[Jai Dee]

President of Muslim Association of Ayutthaya province urged Thai-Muslim people who will join Mr. Sondhi’s protest to behave in appropriate manner

Today, over 1,000 people from Ayutthaya (อยุธยา) Province have signed their names at the provincial Thai Rak Thai Party office to support Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The majority of them would like the premier to continue working for the country, especially in solving poverty and narcotic issues.

However, a group of Ayutthaya locals who supports the premier will join the demonstration led by media tycoon Sonthi Limthongkul (สนธิ ลิ้มทองกุล) at the King Rama V Equestrian Statue tomorrow (Feb. 4th).

President of Muslim Association of Ayutthaya province Pradit Rattanakomon (ประดิษฐ์ รัตนโกมล) referred to this demonstration that Thai-Muslim residents of the province did not have much reaction but admitted that a group of people have agreed with Mr. Sonthi’s objection. He stated that it is not possible to prohibit residents from joining the protest.

However, he has urged Thai-Muslim people to behave in an appropriate manner, to prevent unrelated Thai-Muslims from being harmed by the incident.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 03 Febuary 2006

[Oishi]

Not foreigners warned, but Americans :-)

This is an announcement from U.S. Ambassy, of course it is targeted to Americans. Why would U.S. Ambassy care about foreigners from other countries in Thailand? Those foreigns are none of U.S. Ambassy's bussiness anyway.

Yes Scott...but then the tread should have said Warning to Americans...but it said Warnings to foreigners....

[dan10400]

i am curious - does anybody actually plan in going? unfortunately,

i am not expecting TV coverage, but it seems it could be one of those

things that happens where you just wish you were there (or not).

fence sitting at the moment.

--dan

[bubba]

I just received a Nation SMS news alert saying that the British Embassy had just issued a warning similar to the one the American Embassy issued yesterday.

Here is the full text from the Nation:

British Embassy warns British to stay away from anti-govt rally

Published on Feb 03 , 2006

British Embassy in Bangkok Friday urged its nationals to avoid the anti-government rally planned for the weekend in Bangkok, which local

officials have warned could turn violent.

"A large political rally is scheduled for February 4, 2006 at King Rama V

monument in the vicinity of the national zoo and parliament building in

Bangkok," the British embassy said in its updated travel advice for Thailand.

"This could cause congestion and disruption. You should avoid large crowds

and demonstrations."

The US embassy issued a similar warning Thursday.

Tens of thousands of people are expected at the rally Saturday, where

anti-governmentprotesters plan to call for the resignation of Prime Minister

Thaksin Shinawatra.

Thai officials plan to deploy 4,500 police, and have warned that the

demonstration could turn violent.

[Scott]

Now that the British Embassy has issued a warning, it must be a credible threat!

[Plus]

I hope there will be extensive TV coverage. ThaiVisa, that is.

[kat]

... The Dutch just say ... "Stop drinking the local Beers, better take a Heinie ... "

What does that mean ? I think it's bullocks. Propaganda against a war they themselves started and as they are losing, these 'Ami-patriots' gonna try to find any ally, even the folks who live in other country's. Stupid people will always be there and maybe a (Muslim) fool will try to spoil the party; do not put it on the average Muslim and let the Americans scream 'Blood-and-Murder' .

What happened in '73? 92?

protests can be peaceful, ya know?? Perhaps I am naive; but, are people suggesting there will be a crackdown on the crackdown protest?

What happened '45 / '72 ? U=Vague ... Head Snake ... sorry to say ...

You've got the nerve to make the stupid comments that you do, and then in the next breath reveal that you really don't have a clue. Here's a clue: go drink another Heinie and stay there. That's about as much information as you can handle.

And by the way, did you know that the Dutch were the last Euro colonizing force to leave SEA

Lecturers, students protest against Singapore

BANGKOK: -- A group of some 10 people rallied in front of the Singapore Embassy on Thursday to protest against Temasek Holdings' takeover of Shin Corp.

The protesters included Weera Somkwamkid and lecturers and students of Rangsit University.

They demonstrated in front of the embassy at 4 pm for about an hour, carrying banner saying "Singapore should stop taking over Thailand".

--The Nation 2006-02-02

I love how some Thais can still manage to turn one of the biggest internal corruption scandals of their day into anti-farang sentiment. Too bad they weren't quite on the ball with the biggest farang invasion of which their current PM is a descendent.

Now that the British Embassy has issued a warning, it must be a credible threat!

Of course, Scott, of course! In reality, their embassy probably just awakened from their hangovers.

[haha]

my 2 cents..

if the "peaceful" demonstration goes off without any problems, this will be a sign to the world community that thailand is indeed a stable place where foreign investors can invest.

all thaksin needs to do is be patient, and relax.

..and he will be able to call this day, february 4, a victory for his country - for democracy.

on the other side of the coin, if those anti-thaksin folks cause chaos, they will lose their credibility as a political force.

..seems to me that thaksin is in a good position.

[marshbags]

This is not a criticism of anyone, just a bit more info on the British Embassy ( to there credit )

In an previous post on page 6 i repeated their earlier warning as stated which was sent out to all registered U.K. citizens on their email list

Dated 02-02-2006 at 17.45

They do usually get info out on safety when something comes to the for.

Admitted they came in late but where possibly awaiting further information they could add on.

Anyone can get these emails sent by registering for them.

No complicated info was required when i registered by the way.

marshbags

Edited February 3, 2006 by marshbags

[opothai]

i've just been watching tele [ bloomberg ] and it reported that in bangkok they are expecting a mass rally by the people in protest over the sale of toxin telecoms.

so possibly thir could br coverage by an outside broadcast company, i hope so, then it could be safer for the demonstrators,

[mcfester]

there must be a bar somewhere, that will let us drink till the party (demostration) is over, then we can all get to read about it a day or so later (seems a bit like a Tottenham and Millwall match really, bound to be a shade of claret on the streets)

And as I havent been invited, I wont be going, and I'm a bit old to be a student anyway, so I guess I'll have a few beers and have an early night

of course Americans like fighting, they go anywhere for a scrap, they dont REALLY want to comeback to Asia, they came second last time

Another glib posting about what is essentially a very grave matter......obviously, there are more than a few posters on this forum who don't give an iota about anything or anyone except themselves........SAD.......

Rumor has it that they are setting up hundreds of loud speakers around the area and when the voilence kicks off they will play the national anthem repeatedly so everyone stands still and the police will shoot any moving targets.

[kat]

Mcfester:

That is a perverse and sick comment on this very serious thread -- and for some reason I cannot stop laughing

edit: all joking aside though - I really hope this demonstration happens peacefully and successfully.

Edited February 3, 2006 by kat

[mcfester]

Mcfester:

That is a perverse and sick comment on this very serious thread -- and for some reason I cannot stop laughing

edit: all joking aside though - I really hope this demonstration happens peacefully and successfully.

I also hope its peacefull, but considering Thai's and voilence, have you ever seen Thai's fight one on one? Its normally like five on one, so whats it going to be like with 100,000? They will think they can take on the world, and it will all start with a few bottles of water being thrown from either side, then the anti Thaksin crowd will turn on the boys in brown and we have a major riot. Lets just hope its only a one night affair and doesn't carry on through the weekend.

[steveromagnino]

Lecturers, students protest against Singapore

The protesters included Weera Somkwamkid and lecturers and students of Rangsit University.

They demonstrated in front of the embassy at 4 pm for about an hour, carrying banner saying "Singapore should stop taking over Thailand".

--The Nation 2006-02-02

I love how some Thais can still manage to turn one of the biggest internal corruption scandals of their day into anti-farang sentiment. Too bad they weren't quite on the ball with the biggest farang invasion of which their current PM is a descendent.

Well, actually there are plenty of countries where some members of the population don't like selling what they view as national assets to overseas (NZ being one) but actually the sign 'Singapore should stop taking over Thailand' is not anti-farang sentiment; it is certainly anti-Singaporean business, but I think you would not find too many Singaporeans who consider themselves farang, more likely to be of Chinese descent at a guess.

And in terms of the farang invasion, I think you mean the Chinese immigration? Again, these are not farangs (white foreigners) but rather Chinese (kon jeen).... and they had several barriers in place, including restrictions on what positions of power Chinese could hold; ironically much like the Jewish, the businesses they were allowed to conduct were mostly the dirty business and money ones, not the more highly regarded army and political positions. Today's world is one of business, so this approach was not particularly successful; that said Thai Chinese are widely considered to be a success story in racial integration and so not many would say Thaksin is bad because he is Thai Chinese, I think many Thai people would say Thaksin is bad because, well, he is crap innit!

I am not getting this corruption that you speak of - you mean the systematic use of office to promote personal goals (like the Bechtel and Halliburton presidents ) or the rampant nepotism or is it related to something specifically to do with the Shin deal itself? Of the 3, I have to say the Shin deal has been known to be in the works for a while, and while some of the elements are highly questionable, IMHO I don't think there is any corruption specifically in selling the beast at a decent profit, and nor should there be any problem in selling to foreigners, even those of the 'yellow peril' colour.

After all, this season, 'yellow is the new black dahhhhhling'

McFester, compared to where I grew up Thai people fight a lot less. But if you get into a fight, you might as well win, and there are not any rules dictating how you do that. Much like the idiot who complained after I'd kicked him in a fight, ' you <deleted> cheat, you can't kick like a girl' as he lay on the ground for a while - it isn' like it is a WBO sanctioned pay per view is it?! If you can show me this set of rules for illegal fighting I will consider their merits though

For this demonstration, there are a fair few heated up people travelling long distances to demonstrate, let's hope that common sense prevents it getting to the point of a fight. If you compared the EGAT listing protest (people sittnig around singing songs and banging drums) to some of the French farmer type antics, well let's hope it is more like EGAT than Paris.

And if B'Prem is around, well he has the power to control; but will he be around that day?!!

Wouldn't it be a suprise if there are lots of motorcades, and police check points coming into Bangkok from Isaan and the north that day; could be a tough day to be driving around; after all with bad traffic comes difficulties in getting to the demonstration itself.....

Edited February 3, 2006 by steveromagnino

[kat]

Lecturers, students protest against Singapore

The protesters included Weera Somkwamkid and lecturers and students of Rangsit University.

They demonstrated in front of the embassy at 4 pm for about an hour, carrying banner saying "Singapore should stop taking over Thailand".

--The Nation 2006-02-02

I love how some Thais can still manage to turn one of the biggest internal corruption scandals of their day into anti-farang sentiment. Too bad they weren't quite on the ball with the biggest farang invasion of which their current PM is a descendent.

1. Well, actually there are plenty of countries where some members of the population don't like selling what they view as national assets to overseas (NZ being one) but actually the sign 'Singapore should stop taking over Thailand' is not anti-farang sentiment; it is certainly anti-Singaporean business, but I think you would not find too many Singaporeans who consider themselves farang, more likely to be of Chinese descent at a guess.

2. And in terms of the farang invasion, I think you mean the Chinese immigration? Again, these are not farangs (white foreigners) but rather Chinese (kon jeen).... and they had several barriers in place, including restrictions on what positions of power Chinese could hold; ironically much like the Jewish, the businesses they were allowed to conduct were mostly the dirty business and money ones, not the more highly regarded army and political positions. Today's world is one of business, so this approach was not particularly successful; that said Thai Chinese are widely considered to be a success story in racial integration and so not many would say Thaksin is bad because he is Thai Chinese, I think many Thai people would say Thaksin is bad because, well, he is crap innit!

3. I am not getting this corruption that you speak of - you mean the systematic use of office to promote personal goals (like the Bechtel and Halliburton presidents ) or the rampant nepotism or is it related to something specifically to do with the Shin deal itself? Of the 3, I have to say the Shin deal has been known to be in the works for a while, and while some of the elements are highly questionable, IMHO I don't think there is any corruption specifically in selling the beast at a decent profit, and nor should there be any problem in selling to foreigners, even those of the 'yellow peril' colour.

After all, this season, 'yellow is the new black dahhhhhling'

McFester, compared to where I grew up Thai people fight a lot less. But if you get into a fight, you might as well win, and there are not any rules dictating how you do that. Much like the idiot who complained after I'd kicked him in a fight, ' you <deleted> cheat, you can't kick like a girl' as he lay on the ground for a while - it isn' like it is a WBO sanctioned pay per view is it?! If you can show me this set of rules for illegal fighting I will consider their merits though

For this demonstration, there are a fair few heated up people travelling long distances to demonstrate, let's hope that common sense prevents it getting to the point of a fight. If you compared the EGAT listing protest (people sittnig around singing songs and banging drums) to some of the French farmer type antics, well let's hope it is more like EGAT than Paris.

And if B'Prem is around, well he has the power to control; but will he be around that day?!!

Wouldn't it be a suprise if there are lots of motorcades, and police check points coming into Bangkok from Isaan and the north that day; could be a tough day to be driving around; after all with bad traffic comes difficulties in getting to the demonstration itself.....

1. Yes, and there are even more countries where foreign investment is just considered part of a normal free market - New York, London, Paris .... etc.

2. Well yes, they are not semantically called white foreigners, but they are foreigners just the same when something goes down that isn't liked -- innit? And yes, there were barriers when Chinese mercenaries (before the immigrants) and immigrants first came, and impositions, such as changing Chinese names, but that didn't stop some of the earliest Kings and subsequent monarchies to be either fully Chinese or half. That also didn't stop some of the earliest land buyoffs in the *North and Central Thailand, either.

3. Why yes, that's precisely what I'm after, but in the case of Thailand, you'll need to proceed onto every ministry and top official down through the ranks in the land. And as far as the Shin deal not being too bad, well, it's too bad you view it this way, because it is a prime example and role model of how the rich have been eating the state of Thailand, for like, forever.

*edit

Edited February 3, 2006 by kat

[steveromagnino]

1. Yes, and there are even more countries where foreign investment is just considered part of a normal free market - New York, London, Paris .... etc.

- Ah true, but there will always be some who believe that selling out is a very very bad thing and hence my point (and yours) that some people focus on the aspect of the buyer being inherently bad because they are foreign; incidentally I recall that USA had some serious problems with certain aspects of defense industry being sold to the Japanese to the point that they were blocked, and more recently an oil company should NOT be sold to the Chinese for 'ahem' strategic reasons; there were apparently protests when Mitsubishi bought the Rockefeller centre, with concerns that the Rockettes would be wearing kimonos and the bid by the Chinese for Maytag is backed by the major concern that they will fire all the Americans and move all manufacturing to China.... not wanting FI occurs for various reasons, and in many countries, not just Thailand....in the case of Fairchild Semiconductor, it was ok when the owner was French, but in the 80s it was not ok to have the Japanese owning that company, so they dropped their bid, with another French company matra buying it just 2 years later. Ditto in NZ; blocking foreign companies from doing business and concerns about whether 'we can trust them' is most important when looking at where they come from for some members of the population...strange but true.

2. Well yes, they are not semantically called white foreigners, but they are foreigners just the same when something goes down that isn't liked -- innit? And yes, there were barriers when Chinese mercenaries (before the immigrants) and immigrants first came, and impositions, such as changing Chinese names, but that didn't stop some of the earliest Kings and subsequent monarchies to be either fully Chinese or half. That also didn't stop some of the earliest land buyoffs in the *North and Central Thailand, either.

Indeed. And not just in Thialand, Chinese immigrants to NZ were systematically discriminated against (with a poll tax, and the 'yellow peril' marketing so popular even up to 50 years ago); despite this they have managed to climb into a position of superior income per capita, education and fewer miscreants in jail; much like the Jewish, there are some aspects of culture in the Chinese immigrants (a burning ambition for wealth, strong community and use of networking, a high value placed on children and education) that have, in the past at least, resulted in success. And both Chinese and Jewish really understand, generally, more than most other groups, the value of being the middle person in a non-transparent market.

3. Why yes, that's precisely what I'm after, but in the case of Thailand, you'll need to proceed onto every ministry and top official down through the ranks in the land. And as far as the Shin deal not being too bad, well, it's too bad you view it this way, because it is a prime example and role model of how the rich have been eating the state of Thailand, for like, forever.

He did things much the same way as most other major business families and leaders have done here for the infrastructure type companies (and in NZ and in USA); he got in a position to influence policy, he tilted things in his direction in a semi regulated market during a period of growth, then did his best to out perform the other families and people who set up similar operations.

He then became directly involved in politics when threatened by deregulation and delayed deregulation of the industry long enough to extract a higher price for his company. Now he is selling it.

Despite all of this, I think AIS is a well run company. And while there has been tilting and manipulation, as long as any country has a lobbiest type system then this is the end result in infrastructure type industries sadly. So yes, while I feel this is an example of how the rich get richer here, I don't see it as much different to Boeing, Enron, Halliburton, Amway, any of the Japanese construction firms or most of the other Thai business families and therefore I don't have that much of a problem with him selling it. I do have some questions regarding the deal itself and hope that he can be pulled up on some aspects of those, but overall he owns the company (or his maid does) and one of the principles of the free market is that such a company can be sold, and if need be to a foreigner or anyone else. So long as they keep operating a decent mobile network then as a consumer I am happy. Therefore, I stand by my belief of not having a problem with him selling it; I have fair more problems with the allocation of PTT shares than this!

Do I think he should share some of the money? Absolutely. After all, the robber barrons who pillaged the American markets were also responsible for many of the educational acheivements and museums and so on as well; we have Gates and Turner kickin' it charity style, but do I think Maew actually will?????

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Er,.... no. :

[meom]

And in terms of the farang invasion, I think you mean the Chinese immigration? Again, these are not farangs (white foreigners) but rather Chinese (kon jeen).... and they had several barriers in place, including restrictions on what positions of power Chinese could hold; ironically much like the Jewish, the businesses they were allowed to conduct were mostly the dirty business and money ones, not the more highly regarded army and political positions.

The first King (Taksin) that united Siam was actually a general (and half chinese)before he crowned himself while another King,Rama VI, came up with term "jews of the east" to describe the chinese.

[kat]

And in terms of the farang invasion, I think you mean the Chinese immigration? Again, these are not farangs (white foreigners) but rather Chinese (kon jeen).... and they had several barriers in place, including restrictions on what positions of power Chinese could hold; ironically much like the Jewish, the businesses they were allowed to conduct were mostly the dirty business and money ones, not the more highly regarded army and political positions.

The first King (Taksin) that united Siam was actually a general (and half chinese)before he crowned himself while another King,Rama VI, came up with term "jews of the east" to describe the chinese.

Yes, and actually Ramathibodi I, the "founder" of Ayutthaya, was the son of wealthy Chinese merchants.

[bulmercke]

Some interesting points by posters -

For sure there'll be road checks on all major routes into BKK - probably being set up as I speak. Any group of travellers looking likely as headed for the rally will, no doubt, be stopped and questioned and possibly (or probably) detained for any reason whatsoever: I.D cards, driver and vehicle documents, charged with a fictitious traffic violation, vehicle check for weapons and other "suspicious" items etc. etc. - I can just imagine it. Anything to impede and halt the movement of protesters, both pro and anti Sondhi.

Protesters held up for an interminable amount of time - why should the police be concerned when the order is from up and above and their comrades are dealing with like minded protesters in BKK!

Also, several weeks ago provincial governors were directed by the government to monitor groups and the movement of those groups supporting Sondhi. Obviously nothing advantageous about this for Sondhi or his supporters.

For sure, Thaksin will pull out all the stops to minimize the impact of the rally and the potential for any conflict and violence. These are dangerous days for him and he'll be set for riding out the storm....and wriggling his way in to a better position politically.

However, tomorrow appears to be headed for a monumental day in Thai history.....or days as I see this protest dragging on for more than one day.....possibly still going strong this Monday!

[tettyan]

So yes, while I feel this is an example of how the rich get richer here, I don't see it as much different to Boeing, Enron, Halliburton, Amway, any of the Japanese construction firms or most of the other Thai business families and therefore I don't have that much of a problem with him selling it.

You saying that what's going on here is no worse than in western countries?

Well, do you see anyone in America clamoring for Jack Abrahamoff to run for president? I didn't think so. No mature democracies would stand for the type of stuff that goes on in Thailand.

[kat]

1. Yes, and there are even more countries where foreign investment is just considered part of a normal free market - New York, London, Paris .... etc.

A. Ah true, but there will always be some who believe that selling out is a very very bad thing and hence my point (and yours) that some people focus on the aspect of the buyer being inherently bad because they are foreign; incidentally I recall that USA had some serious problems with certain aspects of defense industry being sold to the Japanese to the point that they were blocked, and more recently an oil company should NOT be sold to the Chinese for 'ahem' strategic reasons;

B.

there were apparently protests when Mitsubishi bought the Rockefeller centre, with concerns that the Rockettes would be wearing kimonos and the bid by the Chinese for Maytag is backed by the major concern that they will fire all the Americans and move all manufacturing to China.... not wanting FI occurs for various reasons, and in many countries, not just Thailand....in the case of Fairchild Semiconductor, it was ok when the owner was French, but in the 80s it was not ok to have the Japanese owning that company, so they dropped their bid, with another French company matra buying it just 2 years later. Ditto in NZ; blocking foreign companies from doing business and concerns about whether 'we can trust them' is most important when looking at where they come from for some members of the population...strange but true.

2. Well yes, they are not semantically called white foreigners, but they are foreigners just the same when something goes down that isn't liked -- innit? And yes, there were barriers when Chinese mercenaries (before the immigrants) and immigrants first came, and impositions, such as changing Chinese names, but that didn't stop some of the earliest Kings and subsequent monarchies to be either fully Chinese or half. That also didn't stop some of the earliest land buyoffs in the *North and Central Thailand, either.

C. Indeed. And not just in Thialand, Chinese immigrants to NZ were systematically discriminated against (with a poll tax, and the 'yellow peril' marketing so popular even up to 50 years ago); despite this they have managed to climb into a position of superior income per capita, education and fewer miscreants in jail; much like the Jewish, there are some aspects of culture in the Chinese immigrants (a burning ambition for wealth, strong community and use of networking, a high value placed on children and education) that have, in the past at least, resulted in success. And both Chinese and Jewish really understand, generally, more than most other groups, the value of being the middle person in a non-transparent market.

3. Why yes, that's precisely what I'm after, but in the case of Thailand, you'll need to proceed onto every ministry and top official down through the ranks in the land. And as far as the Shin deal not being too bad, well, it's too bad you view it this way, because it is a prime example and role model of how the rich have been eating the state of Thailand, for like, forever.

D.

He did things much the same way as most other major business families and leaders have done here for the infrastructure type companies (and in NZ and in USA); he got in a position to influence policy, he tilted things in his direction in a semi regulated market during a period of growth, then did his best to out perform the other families and people who set up similar operations.

He then became directly involved in politics when threatened by deregulation and delayed deregulation of the industry long enough to extract a higher price for his company. Now he is selling it.

Despite all of this, I think AIS is a well run company. And while there has been tilting and manipulation, as long as any country has a lobbiest type system then this is the end result in infrastructure type industries sadly. So yes, while I feel this is an example of how the rich get richer here, I don't see it as much different to Boeing, Enron, Halliburton, Amway, any of the Japanese construction firms or most of the other Thai business families and therefore I don't have that much of a problem with him selling it. I do have some questions regarding the deal itself and hope that he can be pulled up on some aspects of those, but overall he owns the company (or his maid does) and one of the principles of the free market is that such a company can be sold, and if need be to a foreigner or anyone else. So long as they keep operating a decent mobile network then as a consumer I am happy. Therefore, I stand by my belief of not having a problem with him selling it; I have fair more problems with the allocation of PTT shares than this!

Do I think he should share some of the money? Absolutely. After all, the robber barrons who pillaged the American markets were also responsible for many of the educational acheivements and museums and so on as well; we have Gates and Turner kickin' it charity style, but do I think Maew actually will?????

55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

Er,.... no. :

A.Ahem, I agree with this for obvious logical reasons, as I think any country should. A telecommunication empire is a bit differerent than a country's defense industry, or major public/privat infrastructure company, especially when foreigners are already involved in the telecommunications industry here

B.I'm not exactly condemning this point of view. What I find ridiculous is a pervasive, entrenched response to become hysterical when a foreigner is involved in something that is already commonplace.

C.Yes, but I thought we were talking about Thailand. Chinese ascent in Thailand and other parts of Asia has been different than in "Western" countries such as New Zealand.

D. I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I disagree that it is pretty much the same. In the West we have anti-trust and conflict of interests, and while there are violators of these legal codes, people are aware that it is a violation. So, you don't have a problem with the Shin deal, but you have a problem with the allocation of PTT shares .... and, you see no connection?

In the case of Enron and the like, well, there is no doubt that the states also has a corrupt politician at its helm. I'm actually glad that this scandal occurred here in Thailand so that the Thai public has a rallying point around his flagrant corruption.

Edited February 3, 2006 by kat

[meom]

And in terms of the farang invasion, I think you mean the Chinese immigration? Again, these are not farangs (white foreigners) but rather Chinese (kon jeen).... and they had several barriers in place, including restrictions on what positions of power Chinese could hold; ironically much like the Jewish, the businesses they were allowed to conduct were mostly the dirty business and money ones, not the more highly regarded army and political positions.

The first King (Taksin) that united Siam was actually a general (and half chinese)before he crowned himself while another King,Rama VI, came up with term "jews of the east" to describe the chinese.

Yes, and actually Ramathibodi I, the "founder" of Ayutthaya, was the son of wealthy Chinese merchants.

You're going way back in history now

I believe the chinese were pretty much assimilated since they married thai women until the coolie boom of the early 1900's when a lot of chinese women arrived and fewer chinese intermarried. Apparently a national chinese identity emerged which was one of the reasons Rama VI wanted to minimize chinese power. As a result wealthy chinese started to back the army which in the end brought the army to power through various coups until recently.

[steveromagnino]

Don't get me wrong; I am fully in favour of the free market; I'm just pointing out that for some people, they get all xenophobic, so we should not be surprised about that occuring here. And yes, I agree it is ridiculous; however i raise the issues of the cases above as evidence that some pretty developed countries have done through the same challenges.

in terms of the TIT aspect, I always like to make a reality check; it isn't like it isn't going on in other countries. The magnitude of corruption is widely documented to be higher here and is far more pervasive - no question about that; however when I have people explaining to me how Thailand could be like Singapore with no corruption if it had a great leader like Lee and I have one American friend raising the point that in USA there is no conflict of interest because politicians have to place things in a trust and therefore cannot control companies while also in politics; well I look for evidence that this is not the case. And sadly, it seems not very hard to find! [if you can confirm that in USA there is some sort of mechanism to avoid the conflict of interest issue then I'd be interested to know how they do it; I do know that lobbying is out of control there, but I am specifically interested in for instance, how Schultz could head up Bechtel then not have a conflict of interest, or your pal Cheney with Halliburton ]

So point taken, yep, it happens here, but on a far greater scale.

regarding why I think PTT is different... all around the world governments have given business people starts with exclusive rights for little reason. Oracle, the early owners of the deregulated power industry, Thaksin with his license to develop mobile 1800 band.... and Thailand used to be very much a country with a license given to one person or company to do something; he was the one who played the system to get a license, in exactly the same way that NZ companies had to play the system during the Muldoon years of licensing. I have some problems with his TRT administration and their deregulation, but he'd already sealed his success by avoiding the debt problems that mired his competitors in the crash. The policy oversight was more one of insurance that one of his rivals didn't get the power to control the concession conversion process IMHO>

So now he comes to sell, well it is maybe on par or a bit wrose than say the crooks at Amway or Larry Ellison selling out. Amway being a big time lobbiest to keep up an illegal business where they lie and misrepresent systematically; and Ellison getting his big start from building a database for the CIA I think it was which was selection of him over others, and started him on the path to making riches.

However, the allocation of PTT shares was supposed to be transparent and fair, and therefore I have more problems with that than this. Allocation is always going to be unfair to some, but this was spectacular in its unfairness.

BTW I think Enron was a Clinton promoted company right? It was certainly the fraudulent years under Clinton that sealed their fate; AFAIK they lobbied both parties heavily, and it paid off with very favourable deals in USA and abroad.