Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[folium]

I doubt very much that forcing the 6 counties into an Irish republic against their will would have made the troubles redundant!

Oh lordy!

My point was that had there not been the presence of originally Scottish, Presbyterian/Protestant, settlers making up the majority in 4 of the 9 counties of Ulster (Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal were left in the South at partition), there would have been no need for partition; a move spearheaded by Scots-Irish politicains such as Carson and Craig.

So you could say it was all the fault of the Scots rather than the English, but I am not so churlish.....!

[7by7]

Proud that the people of the six counties were allowed to remain part of the Union, which is what the majority of the people living there wanted at the time and still do?

But if union with Britain is no longer possible, will they want union with England, or union with Scotland?

You've made some excellent points, but why would Scotland leaving the UK mean that union between Northern Ireland and the remainder of the UK, not just England, be impossible?

The UK is not just England and Scotland; it is England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

The UK will still exist if Scotland leaves, just as it continued to exist after what is now the Republic of Ireland left.

As at that time, the name would need to be changed, though. From the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland and Wales, perhaps?

There is no such political entity as Great Britain. That is the geographical name of the largest island in the British Isles archipelago.

Although, for convenience, citizens of the UK are called British and people often say Britain when they mean the UK.

Just as citizens of the USA are called American and the USA itself referred to as America; even though the USA is just one country among the many which are situated in the continents of North and South America.

[7by7]

I doubt very much that forcing the 6 counties into an Irish republic against their will would have made the troubles redundant!

Oh lordy!

My point was that had there not been the presence of originally Scottish, Presbyterian/Protestant, settlers making up the majority in 4 of the 9 counties of Ulster (Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal were left in the South at partition), there would have been no need for partition; a move spearheaded by Scots-Irish politicains such as Carson and Craig.

So you could say it was all the fault of the Scots rather than the English, but I am not so churlish.....!

Apols.

I thought you were saying that if there had been no partition there would have been no troubles, but you were actually saying that if the Scottish plantations hadn't occurred there would have been no need for partition and so no troubles.

Got it now.

[7by7]

On the EU question, Scottish independence: EC's Barroso says new states need 'apply to join EU'

The president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, has said that any new independent country would have to apply to join the EU.

The president's comments came despite Scottish ministers insisting an independent Scotland would negotiate its position "from within" the EU.......

........Asked whether an independent country would have to renegotiate its terms, Mr Barroso said: "Yes.".

When further asked whether that negotiation would be from "inside" the EU, the president responded: "We are a union of states, so if there is a new state, of course, that state has to apply for membership and negotiate the conditions with other member states.

"For European Union purposes, from a legal point of view, it is certainly a new state. If a country becomes independent it is a new state and has to negotiate with the EU."

Mr Barroso also said that, if Scotland became independent, the rest of the UK would not have to negotiate a new position, because of the "principle of the continuity of the state".

[Richard W]

... why would Scotland leaving the UK mean that union between Northern Ireland and the remainder of the UK, not just England, be impossible?

It would not be impossible, though the best surface communication routes pass through Scotland or the Republic. (One can take ferries via Douglas, which would necessitate exiting and re-entering the EU.) By ancestry, the ties of loyalists are more with Scotland than with England. Where their hearts lie, I cannot say.

As at that time, the name would need to be changed, though. From the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland and Wales, perhaps?

Wales is part of the kingdom of England, and, of course, is a principality rather than a kingdom.

There is no such political entity as Great Britain.

Reduced now to the peerage of Great Britain and the scope of some of the Lord Chancellor's duties. However, the union of 1801 was between Great Britain on one hand and Ireland on the other.

[Richard W]

On the EU question, I would add that territories may cease to be part of the EU, e.g. Greenland. Further, on the loss of EU nationality, if Scotland secedes it can be argued that when Scots lose British nationality, they will also lose EU nationality. At least, I assume, David Hicks, one of the few people known by name to have definitely been stripped of British nationality, is not an EU national!

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed as well as replies.

Comments about other posters are inappropriate and will be deleted.

Stay on topic or feel free to stop posting.

[theblether]

I doubt very much that forcing the 6 counties into an Irish republic against their will would have made the troubles redundant!

Oh lordy!

My point was that had there not been the presence of originally Scottish, Presbyterian/Protestant, settlers making up the majority in 4 of the 9 counties of Ulster (Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal were left in the South at partition), there would have been no need for partition; a move spearheaded by Scots-Irish politicains such as Carson and Craig.

So you could say it was all the fault of the Scots rather than the English, but I am not so churlish.....!

According to your logic it was merely a homecoming by the Scotti????.......surely they were entitled to take root in their ancestral home huh?

[theblether]

@7x7, Barossa has put his foot in it. He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is going to come in to play here.

Politicians and their big mouths huh?

[folium]

I doubt very much that forcing the 6 counties into an Irish republic against their will would have made the troubles redundant!

Oh lordy!

My point was that had there not been the presence of originally Scottish, Presbyterian/Protestant, settlers making up the majority in 4 of the 9 counties of Ulster (Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal were left in the South at partition), there would have been no need for partition; a move spearheaded by Scots-Irish politicains such as Carson and Craig.

So you could say it was all the fault of the Scots rather than the English, but I am not so churlish.....!

According to your logic it was merely a homecoming by the Scotti????.......surely they were entitled to take root in their ancestral home huh?

Scots or Scotti in Hong Kong good news (even the drug runners); Scots (especially those of a different faith to the locals) in Ulster not so good....as we can still see the repercussions ongoing.

[Richard W]

He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

Did he say that? Assuming Scotland secedes (perhaps England should do the 'decent thing' and secede instead, perhaps even leaving Wales behind), British residents of Scotland would surely retain their EU citizenship, while Scottish-only residents of England would automatically lose their EU citizenship as they lost their British citizenship!

Now what might be better from the point of view of retaining EU citizenship might be simply repealing the 1707 Acts of Union, while retaining the repeals of the hostile acts preceding it. I'm not sure if the courts could sort out the ensuing mess of the relationships with Northern Ireland, with the rest of the EEA, and with the overseas territories.

[theblether]

@Folium

By your logic your complaining about an Irish tribe causing trouble in Ireland.........quite bizarre. To demonstrate how bizarre it is, and for the benefit of our non British colleagues, you just said.......

Scots (especially those of a different faith to the locals) in Ulster not so good

However you also stated that the Scots are Irish migrants. So these Irish migrants that returned to Ireland in 1690 are not locals? 1690?.......86 years before the US gained independence? 181 years before the foundation of the German state? 181 years before the foundation of the Italian state?

Can you see how ridiculous that contention is? You, the same guy that rattles on about the Scots being descended from the Irish? I think your going to have a little think about what you have written here, it really is patently ridiculous.

In fact, it would be better for the topic if you dropped the references to Northern Ireland, it's off topic.

ps. It's also patent nonsense to suggest that all Scots are descended from the Irish.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm assuming that I won't be asked to turn in my British passport, unless the Scottish government makes it a necessity for claiming a Scottish one.

I expect it will be too difficult to apply for a Scottish passport, so I might just leave that for my grandchildren to get round to.

SC

[theblether]

He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

Did he say that? Assuming Scotland secedes (perhaps England should do the 'decent thing' and secede instead, perhaps even leaving Wales behind), British residents of Scotland would surely retain their EU citizenship, while Scottish-only residents of England would automatically lose their EU citizenship as they lost their British citizenship!

Now what might be better from the point of view of retaining EU citizenship might be simply repealing the 1707 Acts of Union, while retaining the repeals of the hostile acts preceding it. I'm not sure if the courts could sort out the ensuing mess of the relationships with Northern Ireland, with the rest of the EEA, and with the overseas territories.

The link..........

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-20675705

The relevant part.........

The Scottish minister replied: "Yes, because I think the point which the committee should be very interested in is the fact there is no foundation in treaty for the comment Mr Barroso has made in that letter."

It is a statement of fact that there is no mechanism in European Treaties or Law to strip any current EU citizen of citizenship. Barrosa has shot himself in the foot, he will have to defend the indefensible, and at the end of it? accept that Scotland is guaranteed to maintain it's membership of the EU.

Edited December 12, 2012 by theblether

[theblether]

I'm assuming that I won't be asked to turn in my British passport, unless the Scottish government makes it a necessity for claiming a Scottish one.

I expect it will be too difficult to apply for a Scottish passport, so I might just leave that for my grandchildren to get round to.

SC

We'll be in the same happy position that the citizens of Eire were and are still in.

[StreetCowboy]

@7x7, Barossa has put his foot in it. He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is going to come in to play here.

Politicians and their big mouths huh?

So long as we hang on to our nice British passports with "Citizen of the EU" we should be OK. If we relinquish those, we relinquish ourt citizenship. If we take citizenship of another country that is not yet a member state and relinquish our citizenship of a country that is a member state, then we relinquish our citizenship of the EU.

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

SC

[theblether]

@7x7, Barossa has put his foot in it. He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is going to come in to play here.

Politicians and their big mouths huh?

So long as we hang on to our nice British passports with "Citizen of the EU" we should be OK. If we relinquish those, we relinquish ourt citizenship. If we take citizenship of another country that is not yet a member state and relinquish our citizenship of a country that is a member state, then we relinquish our citizenship of the EU.

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

SC

No we don't. There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship. None.

Barrosa has shot himself in the foot, that's what happens when you have a Spanish politician in charge of the EU who is trying to play to a domestic agenda. Stupid man.

[Richard W]

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

Might start stamping them with the observation that the holder is believed to be a Scottish citizen, but is no longer a British (or whatever) citizen. I don't what happened with the Irish Free State, but things were a little more relaxed in those days. If Scotland were outside the EEA, I think there is a very high chance that they would at the very least be stamped:

"holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community Provisions relating to employment or establishment"

as though you were a Manxman.

Of course, passports do expire, so in this scenario non-dual national Scots would definitely cease to hold valid British passports within 10 years of independence.

[StreetCowboy]

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

Might start stamping them with the observation that the holder is believed to be a Scottish citizen, but is no longer a British (or whatever) citizen. I don't what happened with the Irish Free State, but things were a little more relaxed in those days. If Scotland were outside the EEA, I think there is a very high chance that they would at the very least be stamped:

"holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community Provisions relating to employment or establishment"

as though you were a Manxman.

Of course, passports do expire, so in this scenario non-dual national Scots would definitely cease to hold valid British passports within 10 years of independence.

I'm not sure who would decide whether I was Scottish or British, though.

SC

[Richard W]

There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship.

Are you saying that someone who has the nationality of just one EU country would not lose EU nationality if he lost that nationality? Otherwise, you seem to be relying on England and Scotland retaining a common nationality - which is what should happen if the Act(s) of Union were repealed!

Note that it wouldn't be the EU depriving Scots of EU nationality - it would be the UK government if it created a separate Scottish nationality when Scotland seceded, and then deprived most Scots of UK nationality.

[Orac]

There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship.

Are you saying that someone who has the nationality of just one EU country would not lose EU nationality if he lost that nationality? Otherwise, you seem to be relying on England and Scotland retaining a common nationality - which is what should happen if the Act(s) of Union were repealed!

Note that it wouldn't be the EU depriving Scots of EU nationality - it would be the UK government if it created a separate Scottish nationality when Scotland seceded, and then deprived most Scots of UK nationality.

Surely it would be the choice of Scottish people if they voted for independence rather than the fault of the UK or EU though clearly this would need to be clarified before any vote.

[StreetCowboy]

There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship.

Are you saying that someone who has the nationality of just one EU country would not lose EU nationality if he lost that nationality? Otherwise, you seem to be relying on England and Scotland retaining a common nationality - which is what should happen if the Act(s) of Union were repealed!

Note that it wouldn't be the EU depriving Scots of EU nationality - it would be the UK government if it created a separate Scottish nationality when Scotland seceded, and then deprived most Scots of UK nationality.

Surely it would be the choice of Scottish people if they voted for independence rather than the fault of the UK or EU though clearly this would need to be clarified before any vote.

I would imagine that a lot of people who vote for independence will still hang on to their British passports for a while...

[Orac]

There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship.

Are you saying that someone who has the nationality of just one EU country would not lose EU nationality if he lost that nationality? Otherwise, you seem to be relying on England and Scotland retaining a common nationality - which is what should happen if the Act(s) of Union were repealed!

Note that it wouldn't be the EU depriving Scots of EU nationality - it would be the UK government if it created a separate Scottish nationality when Scotland seceded, and then deprived most Scots of UK nationality.

Surely it would be the choice of Scottish people if they voted for independence rather than the fault of the UK or EU though clearly this would need to be clarified before any vote.

I would imagine that a lot of people who vote for independence will still hang on to their British passports for a while...

I would guess a max of 10 years after which they would all have expired - worth renewing i suppose before independence day if the vote goes through.

[Thaddeus]

I'm assuming that I won't be asked to turn in my British passport, unless the Scottish government makes it a necessity for claiming a Scottish one.

I expect it will be too difficult to apply for a Scottish passport, so I might just leave that for my grandchildren to get round to.

SC

We'll be in the same happy position that the citizens of Eire were and are still in.

Planning on joining the Euro currency as well?

[StreetCowboy]

@7x7, Barossa has put his foot in it. He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is going to come in to play here.

Politicians and their big mouths huh?

So long as we hang on to our nice British passports with "Citizen of the EU" we should be OK. If we relinquish those, we relinquish ourt citizenship. If we take citizenship of another country that is not yet a member state and relinquish our citizenship of a country that is a member state, then we relinquish our citizenship of the EU.

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

SC

No we don't. There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship. None.

Barrosa has shot himself in the foot, that's what happens when you have a Spanish politician in charge of the EU who is trying to play to a domestic agenda. Stupid man.

So you're saying that we could be EU citizens even if we were not citizens of a member state?

I'm not familiar with the passport entitlement of British citizens in Ireland at the time of independence for Ireland, though I understand that until recently People born in Northern Ireland were entitled to Irish passports by dint of the Republic's claim to the whole of Ireland.

Has the possibility of partition been considered yet for Scotland?

SC

[nontabury]

@7x7, Barossa has put his foot in it. He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is going to come in to play here.

Politicians and their big mouths huh?

So long as we hang on to our nice British passports with "Citizen of the EU" we should be OK. If we relinquish those, we relinquish ourt citizenship. If we take citizenship of another country that is not yet a member state and relinquish our citizenship of a country that is a member state, then we relinquish our citizenship of the EU.

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

SC

No we don't. There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship. None.

Barrosa has shot himself in the foot, that's what happens when you have a Spanish politician in charge of the EU who is trying to play to a domestic agenda. Stupid man.

So you're saying that we could be EU citizens even if we were not citizens of a member state?

I'm not familiar with the passport entitlement of British citizens in Ireland at the time of independence for Ireland, though I understand that until recently People born in Northern Ireland were entitled to Irish passports by dint of the Republic's claim to the whole of Ireland.

Has the possibility of partition been considered yet for Scotland?

SC

According to my friends in the Shetland Islands and Orkneys, They did in fact form a political party with the intentions of breaking away from Scotland,and joining Denmark,in the event of Scotland separating from the rest of the UK. Seemingly this movement is very quite at the moment, but they tell me, some of the islanders still think this option may be an outcome.

[theblether]

@7x7, Barossa has put his foot in it. He's going to be challenged very soon on this subject and he will have to explain why he thinks he can remove EU citizenship from Scottish residents when clearly there is no legal mechanism to do so.

The Law of Unintended Consequences is going to come in to play here.

Politicians and their big mouths huh?

So long as we hang on to our nice British passports with "Citizen of the EU" we should be OK. If we relinquish those, we relinquish ourt citizenship. If we take citizenship of another country that is not yet a member state and relinquish our citizenship of a country that is a member state, then we relinquish our citizenship of the EU.

However, I doubt that the British government will start collecting our passports...

SC

No we don't. There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship. None.

Barrosa has shot himself in the foot, that's what happens when you have a Spanish politician in charge of the EU who is trying to play to a domestic agenda. Stupid man.

So you're saying that we could be EU citizens even if we were not citizens of a member state?

I'm not familiar with the passport entitlement of British citizens in Ireland at the time of independence for Ireland, though I understand that until recently People born in Northern Ireland were entitled to Irish passports by dint of the Republic's claim to the whole of Ireland.

Has the possibility of partition been considered yet for Scotland?

SC

Yes. We can't be stripped of citizenship.

Anyway, Scotland will join the EU on the same day as we actually become independent. All of this is technical mumbling.

[Scott]

A post which violates Fair Use guidelines has been deleted.

[phuketjock]

This is a real example of how a government can, should and will function in an independand Scotland,

open and frank consultation and discussion with all concerned involved. Perhaps if the UK government

could operate in this way the country would not be in the state it is now!!!

Source:-

www.scotland.gov.uk/news

"Independence preparations underway

11/12/2012

The Scottish Government has offered to open up discussions between its officials and UK Government officials within the spirit of the Edinburgh Agreement as part of the preparations for independence, Finance Secretary John Swinney said today.

Speaking at the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee Mr Swinney said that the Scottish Government was willing to hold discussions with a range of organisations, including the UK Government in preparation for a potential Yes vote in 2014, within the spirit of the Edinburgh Agreement.

Mr Swinney also took the opportunity to set out to the House of Lords the reasons why the Scottish Government believe independence is the right way forward for Scotland.

Addressing the House of Lords, John Swinney said:

"The Scottish Government has taken steps to ensure this is an orderly process that gives the people of Scotland the opportunity to fully debate the issues and to cast their ballot in the referendum with confidence.

"The Edinburgh Agreement, signed in October, creates a clear and understandable process and commits both governments to fully respect and implement the outcome.

"To ensure voters can have confidence in the information we give them about financial arrangements we established the Fiscal Commission Working Group. Chaired by Crawford Beveridge and including respected economists Professor Sir James Mirlees, Joseph Stiglitz, Frances Ruane and Andrew Hughes Hallet – the group is advising on the macro-economic framework and on securing economic growth and stability.

"The Deputy First Minister last week set out our intention to produce a series of papers that will establish the organisational structure of an independent Scotland and this government’s view on why we believe independence to be the right road for Scotland.

"As part of that process we will discuss with organisations and stakeholders the routemap we propose for Scotland. At a wider level we are willing to engage in discussion with organisations, about the preparations for independence. We hope the UK Government will participate and allow discussions at official level, in line with the Edinburgh Agreement, to ensure that in the event of a Yes vote both Governments are ready to take forward the will of the public. That is the common sense way forward."

Discussing the opportunity of independence Mr Swinney said:

"Devolution has allowed Scotland to act in areas such as health, education and justice in a way that suits Scottish circumstances and delivers results for Scotland whether through free education, care for the elderly or the action we are seeking to take on alcohol pricing. We believe this reinforces the principle that it is the people of Scotland, who are the right people to make decisions about what happens in Scotland.

"Last week’s autumn statement created a very clear choice between continued austerity within the UK and unlocking the opportunities of independence.

"Scotland is in a stronger financial position than the UK, we contribute 9.6% of revenues with only 8.4% of the population. Whether Scotland can be independent is no longer disputed. What matters are the opportunities independence would open up to invest in growth, to provide support to key industries and to tackle social issues by connecting education, welfare, employment and the economy in a way that can only be done with the full levers of responsibility.

"It is a decision for people across Scotland in 2014 whether to unlock the opportunities I believe will come from independence and build our future based on the achievements of Scottish self government."

Related information"

• The Edinburgh Agreemen
  

Edited December 12, 2012 by phuketjock

[7by7]

It is a statement of fact that there is no mechanism in European Treaties or Law to strip any current EU citizen of citizenship.

There is no mechanism under the Law or by Treaty that forces us to relinquish our EU citizenship. None.

Yes. We can't be stripped of citizenship.

Nobody has said that Scottish citizens will be stripped of or forced to relinquish their EU citizenship should Scotland become independent.

But, and it is a very big but which Salmond and you choose to ignore, EU citizens are such because they are citizens of a member state.

Scotland is not a member state of the EU, the UK is.

Scottish citizens are EU citizens because they are also British citizens.

If Scotland leaves the UK, it will be an independent state seperate from the UK and so no longer able to benefit from the UK's EU membership.

Scottish citizens will no longer be British citizens and so no longer EU citizens.

You will not have been forced to relinquish your EU membership and EU citizenship; you will have chosen to give them up.

The same way as if I were to renounce my British citizenship I would at the same time effectively renounce my EU citizenship.

It seems that you and Salmond want all the benefits of being part of the UK without any of the responsibilities.

Anyway, Scotland will join the EU on the same day as we actually become independent

That's certainly what Salmond wants to happen. But not according to the EU president and the EU commission; who have more say in this matter than Salmond does. Despite what his massive ego tells him.

Interesting point; Jeremy Vine had this on his Radio 2 show yesterday (Tues) and asked Scots to phone in with their opinion. The majority of callers were in favour of Scottish independence and Scotland leaving the EU! The overwhelming opinion expressed by callers was that if Scottish independence meant Scotland being out of the EU, that was a good thing and another reason for voting Yes.

Not a very scientific guage of Scottish opinion, obvioulsy, but perhaps it shows that Salmond is not as in touch with the ordinary Scot as he likes to think he is.

Edited December 12, 2012 by 7by7