Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[phuketjock]

Who knows what the rules are for getting onto the electoral roll? What's the "residency"· requirement, and what proof of what do you need to show in your own name? Will a POBox number do?

rule one, you need to pay poll tax / community tax.

rule two, you need a uk residency address.

times they are a changing.

Eliss

There is no poll tax or community tax in Scotland and has not been for sometime it is

called council tax now, I guess you have been away for a while.

Times they are achanging

[endure]

A baiting post has been removed. Facts are facts no matter where they are obtained.

[endure]

One more time. Any more personal insults will find their poster suspended without further warning.

[phuketjock]

No problem SC the wind farm off Trumps golf course will be on line by then

Not according to Trump; who is now quoted as saying he is confident it wont get built due to lack of funding.

I wonder who gave him that idea.

I bow to your superior knowledge 7 please enlighten me, who gave Mr. Trump that idea?

I have to say 7 does anyone but you and your cronies really care???

Edited December 13, 2012 by phuketjock

[theblether]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

[StreetCowboy]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

You're l;ucky, like me, that you will not live to see the full consequences. My children now will be faced with a dilemma of nationality, the complexities of which are yet far from clear. Luckily, I have conficence in the good nature of our British government, that they will not thrust that decision suddenly upon us in the same way that the SNP is taking from under ud the country of our forefathers.

Out of interest, what will happen if the Shetlanders vote to remain British" Will their democratic wishes be trampled underfoot in the interests of the democratic dictatorship? Who cares, anyway? There's limits to the practicality of devolution and democracy...

SC

[theblether]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

You're l;ucky, like me, that you will not live to see the full consequences. My children now will be faced with a dilemma of nationality, the complexities of which are yet far from clear. Luckily, I have conficence in the good nature of our British government, that they will not thrust that decision suddenly upon us in the same way that the SNP is taking from under ud the country of our forefathers.

Out of interest, what will happen if the Shetlanders vote to remain British" Will their democratic wishes be trampled underfoot in the interests of the democratic dictatorship? Who cares, anyway? There's limits to the practicality of devolution and democracy...

SC

Bizarrely the idea of nationality will be less of an issue for our children that it will be for us.........too many people fail to see that this referendum is not about Scottish triumphalism/ Braveheart/Wha's Like Us, No many, an They're Aw Deid.......

It's about managing our own affairs.

The UK has been a disaster in many regards for years, and we're sick of it. We'll look after ourselves if you don't mind, we're not the social cripples that some people think we are.

[phuketjock]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

You're l;ucky, like me, that you will not live to see the full consequences. My children now will be faced with a dilemma of nationality, the complexities of which are yet far from clear. Luckily, I have conficence in the good nature of our British government, that they will not thrust that decision suddenly upon us in the same way that the SNP is taking from under ud the country of our forefathers.

Out of interest, what will happen if the Shetlanders vote to remain British" Will their democratic wishes be trampled underfoot in the interests of the democratic dictatorship? Who cares, anyway? There's limits to the practicality of devolution and democracy...

SC

SC I find your outlook on life somewhat more than amazing, believe me your children will be faced with

dilemmas that will not be any more complicated than the complexities that exist now, independance will

not change the normalities of life in any way, and I think maybe your children may be able to deal with

it better than you, but that is only my opinion.

[Richard W]

Bizarrely the idea of nationality will be less of an issue for our children that it will be for us.........too many people fail to see that this referendum is not about Scottish triumphalism/ Braveheart/Wha's Like Us, No many, an They're Aw Deid.......

I think SC is thinking of legal matters rather than emotions.

If the territories of the current UK remain in the Common Travel Area, there should be few problems over nationality for Brits - no more than there are between Britain and Ireland.

Assuming the nationality laws start out identical (mutatis mutandis, and ignoring the issue of current British nationals who are not British citizens), we could just have the situation where on day 1 both countries strip English-Scottish undesirables of citizenship in case the other country does so first, making them stateless! The home secretaries may then argue that they didn't expect their counterpart to implement a new policy on deprivation of citizenship, and were therefore reasonably satisfied that their own action would not make the undesirable stateless!

This just leaves the military-industrial complex. I don't know how we'll handle nationality issues there.

[MAJIC]

...

One thing is certain should there be a Yes Vote (which I very much doubt) no amount of Bravado and Rhetoric will change the fact,that there will be gains and losses on both sides of the border,make no mistake on that!

There will be no outright Winners or Losers,regardless of what biased or otherwise information is fed to the Electorate.

So in essence, what you are saying is that the privilege of self-determination is worth a gamble on whatever else may consequently follow? Given that things are rarely as good as they are portrayed, that seems a fairly limited prospectus

SC

It all comes down to how badly the people want self governance? from all polls to date,it would seem it may not be desired enough,to gamble a comfortable life,on what in essence is unknown. Opinions of course may change in the next two years,when more information has been clarified,and analysed one way or the other,and agreements reached. A yes decision,would most probably be irrevocable,so there is no room for mistaken beliefs,or wooly mindedness.

Yet more speculative nonsense on what premise can you possible state " a yes decision would probably be irrevocable "

Absolute rubbish.

Oh! so you seem to think you can withdraw from the United Kingdom when it suits you,and dive back in if Independance doesn't work out then? the premise is called common sense,highly unlikely to happen!

[folium]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

You're l;ucky, like me, that you will not live to see the full consequences. My children now will be faced with a dilemma of nationality, the complexities of which are yet far from clear. Luckily, I have conficence in the good nature of our British government, that they will not thrust that decision suddenly upon us in the same way that the SNP is taking from under ud the country of our forefathers.

Out of interest, what will happen if the Shetlanders vote to remain British" Will their democratic wishes be trampled underfoot in the interests of the democratic dictatorship? Who cares, anyway? There's limits to the practicality of devolution and democracy...

SC

Bizarrely the idea of nationality will be less of an issue for our children that it will be for us.........too many people fail to see that this referendum is not about Scottish triumphalism/ Braveheart/Wha's Like Us, No many, an They're Aw Deid.......

It's about managing our own affairs.

The UK has been a disaster in many regards for years, and we're sick of it. We'll look after ourselves if you don't mind, we're not the social cripples that some people think we are.

Fascinating stuff, and I am sure I am not alone in appreciating that you have dropped the endless dancing around the issues and begun to lay your cards on the table.

Appreciate the concept of Scotland "managing it's own affairs", but where you lose me somewhat is your claim that the UK has been a "disaster in many ways for years". How has it been a "disaster", and more importantly how has Scotland suffered more than any other region of the UK?

Who perceives Scoland as "social cripples" and why?

The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that having achieved amazing things together in all sorts of different arenas for over 400 years, what is to be gained by changing the status quo, and who would actually benefit?

If as you say it is not about nationalism, what common interests are held by Marchmont, Maryhill or Kirkwall? Why shouldn't Kirkwall & Lerwick etc go back to their Viking heritage and secede to join up with Denmark? Perhaps Marchmont & Morningside would rather remain with their fellow professionals in England rather than experience the delights of Salmond's socialist kingdom as they might perceive it? Once you start breaking something up where do you stop?

Salmond's cleverly packaged snake oil kool aid is very addictive but who will it really benefit?

[MAJIC]

...

Yet more speculative nonsense on what premise can you possible state " a yes decision would probably be irrevocable "

Absolute rubbish.

Has the British government confirmed the terms under which we might be readmitted to the Union?

How much humble pie would we be required to eat?

Would it be short crust, or would we be forced to eat flaky puff pastry?

SC

Or indeed my point was: there may not be any pie at all on offer?

Edited December 13, 2012 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

...

No problem SC the wind farm off Trumps golf course will be on line by then

Scotland will be exporting power to England long after you and I are gone.!!

One can't argue with faith.

Personally, when it comes to politics, my faith extends a fingers' length from my sweaty palm

Who amongst us trusts Alex Salmond beyond the third knuckle?

SC

Thumb!

[folium]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

Nitpicky and with my historian hat on (but without recourse to your favourite search engine!), Barossa is either a wine producing valley in South Australia or a battle honour from the Peninsula Campaign held by the Scots Guards (nemo me impune lacessit), amongst others, (and hence the name of the training area at RMA Sandhurst).

You may not like him or his views, but his name is Jose Barroso....Debate is what life is all about, but there's no need for disrespect.

Great piece here, well worth a read, subtitles could be provided if required:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2012/12/scottish-independence-and-europe-who-does-this-barroso-guy-think-he-is/

Edited December 13, 2012 by folium

[MAJIC]

Does anybody have any uip to date polling data on the question of Scottish independence?

Last time it seemed Salmond had a long way to go re convincing the electorate.....

Here's the latest I could find, but bare in mind,its from Google so probably doesn't count on this particular thread!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/latest-poll-shows-opposition-to-scottish-independence-rising.1350558326

[MAJIC]

...

...

Has the British government confirmed the terms under which we might be readmitted to the Union?

How much humble pie would we be required to eat?

Would it be short crust, or would we be forced to eat flaky puff pastry?

SC

It'll never happen, don't fret about the quality of the pastries.

There's plenty in Bedlam would question your faith.

Personally, I'm not bothered. I have a choice. But a few amongst the 15% of my countrymen may not, and my find themselves irretreivably mired in whatever they and their countryfolk vote for.

SC

The voice of reason

[folium]

Re Alex Salmond.

Do I trust him 100%? The only people I trust 100% gave me life.

Do I honestly believe he has the best interests of Scots and Scotland at heart? Yes I do.

Is he capable of making mistakes? You better believe it.

It will never get away from the fact though that he is the genius politician of his age, he has brought about a situation that many of we Pro-nationalists doubted would happen in our lifetime.

We will have our Independence Referendum..........that in itself is a victory for the SNP.

The Unionist Parties keep celebrating minor pyrrhic victories, they don't seem to realize that the more that is said by guys like Barossa, the more they will be challenged. At the drop of a hat the SNP can call upon funding to fight legal battles at a volume and rate the Unionist Parties can't handle. The four highest profile SNP supporters have a net worth of more than £1.5 billion.

When it suits the SNP they will challenge Barossa, and he will wriggle like a worm on a hook. David Cameron did not want the EU to get involved, he will not be happy, as the Pandoras Box has now been opened.

Tam Dalyell was right.

I say vote Yes to Independence.

You're l;ucky, like me, that you will not live to see the full consequences. My children now will be faced with a dilemma of nationality, the complexities of which are yet far from clear. Luckily, I have conficence in the good nature of our British government, that they will not thrust that decision suddenly upon us in the same way that the SNP is taking from under ud the country of our forefathers.

Out of interest, what will happen if the Shetlanders vote to remain British" Will their democratic wishes be trampled underfoot in the interests of the democratic dictatorship? Who cares, anyway? There's limits to the practicality of devolution and democracy...

SC

SC I find your outlook on life somewhat more than amazing, believe me your children will be faced with

dilemmas that will not be any more complicated than the complexities that exist now, independance will

not change the normalities of life in any way, and I think maybe your children may be able to deal with

it better than you, but that is only my opinion.

Gosh...such presumptions and conceit..can hardly wait for the next Delphic utterance...(ps that's the place in Greece, if your Google search engine is on the blink).

[MAJIC]

Bizarrely the idea of nationality will be less of an issue for our children that it will be for us.........too many people fail to see that this referendum is not about Scottish triumphalism/ Braveheart/Wha's Like Us, No many, an They're Aw Deid.......

I think SC is thinking of legal matters rather than emotions.

If the territories of the current UK remain in the Common Travel Area, there should be few problems over nationality for Brits - no more than there are between Britain and Ireland.

Assuming the nationality laws start out identical (mutatis mutandis, and ignoring the issue of current British nationals who are not British citizens), we could just have the situation where on day 1 both countries strip English-Scottish undesirables of citizenship in case the other country does so first, making them stateless! The home secretaries may then argue that they didn't expect their counterpart to implement a new policy on deprivation of citizenship, and were therefore reasonably satisfied that their own action would not make the undesirable stateless!

This just leaves the military-industrial complex. I don't know how we'll handle nationality issues there.

A good point Richard W,but i'm sure you know the UK has a policy, not to make a person Stateless by taking away their Citizenship,unless the individual has brought it upon themselves,such as engaging in Terrorism!

[Richard W]

A good point Richard W,but i'm sure you know the UK has a policy, not to make a person Stateless by taking away their Citizenship,unless the individual has brought it upon themselves,such as engaging in Terrorism!

From the British Nationality Act 1981 + subsequent amendments (which completely changed the part cited!):

40 (2)The Secretary of State may by order deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that deprivation is conducive to the public good.]

40 (4)The Secretary of State may not make an order under subsection (2) if he is satisfied that the order would make a person stateless.

Why should the home secretary in Edinburgh be sure that the one in London would do the same as him on the same day, and vice versa! It would actually be unlawful for the home secretaries to deprive in concert if the deprivee previously had British citizenship only, even if a convicted terrorist, and perfectly lawful for a single home secretary to act against an undeniably British armed robber if he were sure the other home secretary would not act. Fear of the other home secretary getting in first may prompt action to the maximum extent permitted by law. I do not think this is a good law.

(As far as I am aware, no-one deprived of British citizenship under the act has been validly convicted of terrorism. David Hicks's charge was ruled invalid in October this year!)

[theblether]

Technocrat mumbo jumbo.

[smokie36]

Technocrat mumbo jumbo.

Yes, it seems there are some here who can't see that it would be a political disaster for the EU to have an independent Scotland on the outside.

[theblether]

@Folium

This obsession with AS is pathetic. Forget about him, worry about the quiet.

Labout found at the last Scottish election that it's the quiet you should fear.

[theblether]

Technocrat mumbo jumbo.

Yes, it seems there are some here who can't see that it would be a political disaster for the EU to have an independent Scotland on the outside.

Correct......it would punish democracy. How could Serbia and Croatia, born of war, be EU members, but not Scotland?

Think about what you are saying gents.....it's a mental concept and proposition.

Edited December 14, 2012 by theblether

[folium]

@Folium

This obsession with AS is pathetic. Forget about him, worry about the quiet.

Labout found at the last Scottish election that it's the quiet you should fear.

Talking of "pathetic" as you so charmingly put it, you appear to be far more obsessed about Mr Salmond than I would ever care to be. I think most people dream about "quiet" when it comes to Mr Salmond!

Still keen to develop you view about people managing their own affairs. If Scotland needs independence in order to manage its own affairs as opposed to being a peripheral. minority governed by a distant and non-representative body, how will an independent Scotland represent the views and opinions as diverse and distant (in all ways) of Maryhill, Marchmont and Lerwick? Perhaps they also need to secceed...

[nontabury]

Does anybody have any uip to date polling data on the question of Scottish independence?

Last time it seemed Salmond had a long way to go re convincing the electorate.....

The English seem to be more and more in favour of Scottish separation.the sooner it comes the better.

[Orac]

Technocrat mumbo jumbo.

Yes, it seems there are some here who can't see that it would be a political disaster for the EU to have an independent Scotland on the outside.

Correct......it would punish democracy. How could Serbia and Croatia, born of war, be EU members, but not Scotland?

Think about what you are saying gents.....it's a mental concept and proposition.

I don't think anyone is saying that Scotland won't be an EU member it is more a question of when. Using the Serbia example you are quoting they gained independence in 2006. EU membership was applied for in 2009 and EU accession is due in 2014.

[jpinx]

Scotland is only following the pattern of so many countries that have broken free from Westminster. All around the world the old empire has fragmented into a collection of independent countries who have managed to survive without England's interference. It's a bit difficult for the English to accept that they no longer have an Empire and the military might to control it. When the UN or similar forces UK to accept Argentinian residents in the Falklands, the conquest by population will only be a matter of time.

[jpinx]

Technocrat mumbo jumbo.

Yes, it seems there are some here who can't see that it would be a political disaster for the EU to have an independent Scotland on the outside.

Correct......it would punish democracy. How could Serbia and Croatia, born of war, be EU members, but not Scotland?

Think about what you are saying gents.....it's a mental concept and proposition.

Please,,,, mental concepts are a bit beyond most TV posters

[ScotsExpat]

Who do I believe, let me think, Someone who lived there and whose family still live there, or someone whose information is completely

garnered from internet searches???

No brainer really.

So you don't believe the people who actually live on the estate?

You don't believe the Scottish Wildlife Trust?

You don't believe Scottish Natural Heritage?

You don't believe RSPB Scotland?

But you do believe the spin of a proven liar; Alex Salmond?

Up to you.

Whilst I have been away from Aberdeenshire for 12 years now, due to work, I still return home twice a year and still have my close and extended family living there ( the reason for the frequent return trips home).

The idea that someone requires 'proof' to substantiate personal experience and knowledge is, quite frankly, absurd.

The societies whose links you proffer as 'proof' of your point are societies who are National societies, with a very obvious bias in the development.

Provide me proof from a clearly unbiased and objective source, or stop providing them at all...

[ScotsExpat]

It would appear, having read thru most of this post, that approx 90% of posters are doing precisely what the Unionist agenda wnats you to do..

This is not about Salmond, its not about the Cornish, the Shetlanders, the Orcadians etc (these are not internationally recognised nations, they are 'regions' within an independent state).

Its not about Trumps Menie Estate, its not about EU membership,...

Its not about Westminster...

This is a simple question which only requires a yes or no answer..

"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?

I, personally, do agree....

And all the inane misdirection offered up by the pro-Union lobby is just that, misdirection...

What if.. What if..

What if WHAT, <deleted>! I'll tell you what we will do..

Post independence, and post election for the first Scottish wholly governing parliament, the people who we have voted to run our country will respond as best they can to the questions that arise, in precisely the same way than any other democratic country.

Is their some reason why the Scots cannot handle this????

We are offering the chance to Scots to make a reasoned response to a question as to whether Westminster can give acceptable justification of the authority they currently hold over us.

Kind of reminds of another time when the Scots were at the forefront.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment.

The thinkers of the Scottish Enlightenment asserted the fundamental importance of human reason combined with a rejection of any authority which could not be justified by reason.

Was the enlightenment such a bad thing?

.