Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[Nana Cowboy]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

[jpinx]

Scotland wasn't involved , it was a construct of England and the English crown.

The Irish crown was formed in the 16th century. The Stuarts juggled three kingdoms. Scots got involved constructively in Ireland in the 17th century, partly with the joint plantation of Ulster but also as economic migrants. Union came at the start of the 18th century, by which time Scots were a significant element in Ireland.

Tell that to Brian Boru

[StreetCowboy]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

[Morakot]

Why does Northern Ireland have a right to remain in union with England, but no right to remain in a union with Scotland?

History 101:

The Acts of Union 1800 united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland; it thereby created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after partition in 1922.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Morakot

[Morakot]

Would you like to meet the guy that works for me? a guy that spent 6 years behind bars in The Maze, an ex IRA terrorist.

Would you like to have a pint with me tonight in Bridgeton, Glasgow, the Loyalist heartland of Scotland?

Would you like me to show you The Sash my father wore?

Would you like to sit at chapel this Sunday with my mother?

Would you like to sit back in my shop and have a cup of tea, and listen to the banter between lifetime Republicans and highly dedicated members of the Orange Lodge of Scotland?

Do you honestly believe there is an appetite for a new war in Northern Ireland?

Do you understand, even remotely, what you are suggesting in Glasgow??

You need to go back to the Mid 60's Sir, and see to what extent Harold Wilson and James Callaghan panicked at the idea of a sectarian war starting in Scotland.

It will never happen, don't even suggest it, it will never happen. It will never happen for a reason so obvious that to state it here would only inflame.

I respectfully suggest that the moderators declare this Northern Ireland issue off topic. People are starting to say and suggest things that they quite clearly don't understand.

Thank you for sharing your sensible views!

However, one think struck me: your refusal to talk about our Irish and Ulster-Scottish brothers and sisters. Many hard-line unionist in Ulster are deeply worried about the referendum, because it will fundamentally alters the current situation. For the better or the worse, Scottish independence will change these isles one can safely assume. Why not talk about in a reasonable way my friend?

Edited December 15, 2012 by Morakot

[theblether]

Would you like to meet the guy that works for me? a guy that spent 6 years behind bars in The Maze, an ex IRA terrorist.

Would you like to have a pint with me tonight in Bridgeton, Glasgow, the Loyalist heartland of Scotland?

Would you like me to show you The Sash my father wore?

Would you like to sit at chapel this Sunday with my mother?

Would you like to sit back in my shop and have a cup of tea, and listen to the banter between lifetime Republicans and highly dedicated members of the Orange Lodge of Scotland?

Do you honestly believe there is an appetite for a new war in Northern Ireland?

Do you understand, even remotely, what you are suggesting in Glasgow??

You need to go back to the Mid 60's Sir, and see to what extent Harold Wilson and James Callaghan panicked at the idea of a sectarian war starting in Scotland.

It will never happen, don't even suggest it, it will never happen. It will never happen for a reason so obvious that to state it here would only inflame.

I respectfully suggest that the moderators declare this Northern Ireland issue off topic. People are starting to say and suggest things that they quite clearly don't understand.

Thank you for sharing your sensible views!

However, one think struck me: your refusal to talk about our Irish and Ulster-Scottish brothers and sisters. Many hard-line unionist in Ulster are deeply worried about the referendum, because it will fundamentally alters the current situation. For the better or the worse, Scottish independence will change these isles one can safely assume. Why not talk about in a reasonable way my friend?

I'm very happy to discuss it in a reasonable way, the Northern Ireland issue has been discussed several times this week in my shop, among the group that I mentioned.

To explain, I own two large shops in Bridgeton, my office is a gang hut. On any given day I'll receive 10-15 visitors ( minimum ), and the kettle is never off. On a daily basis you will see former protagonists from both sides occasionally debating, but more often laughing and joking about life. We're all boys together, no matter our backgrounds.

I'm typical of many modern Scots, my fathers family were Orange, some still are. My father had to leave the Lodge when he took up with my mother. My mother is a practising Catholic. I had the joy of attending their 50th Wedding Anniversary back in October, a mixed marriage between 17 year olds in 1962. Anyone with knowledge of the West of Scotland at that time could imagine the pressure they brought upon themselves.

This concept of civil war in Glasgow will never happen, for several reasons, one is that we are a mixed and integrated community, the second one is that the population mix in Scotland is different from Northern Ireland. Only 16% of the Scottish population is Catholic. Although many of them believe in the goal of a united Ireland the vast majority of them are anti-terrorist, anti IRA. Many of them get irritated at the constant intrusion of Irish politics into Scottish life.

I'm going for dinner with a friend tonight who's Aunt suffered a nervous breakdown after being tied up and left silent in a border house, while her kids were tied up in another room. All for the Cause you see, the RA men were hiding from security forces and were needing a bolt hole for the night. That woman died last year suffering from 37 years of mental illness linked to that night her door got kicked in. I know her sister, a beautiful wee 80 year old Irish woman who moved to Scotland to live a full life, bring up a family and just get on with the job of loving. Many Irish people have done that.

I happen to know there are other people involved in this topic who have great knowledge of these things I talk about. I will leave it to them to declare. The ex-terrorist that works for me was dragged into to the mire through all the normal circumstances, he was jailed as a 22 year old, served 6 years, by his own words educated himself in The Maze, came out and moved to Scotland. So that he could get on with the job of loving. His favourite mantra is " Too much religion, not enough education ".

If you wish I'll address the issues that are being discussed between my friends later, it may surprise a few people.

[theblether]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

Totally correct SC, I'm a bit wary of getting into the reality of English history as there will be an automatic emotional reaction. The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta, the greatest gift to the world was the dedication to fairness under the Law. The greatest King in English history was Henry VIII, he was the first King to make England autonomous, every other King that preceded him bowed to Rome.

It would be better that some of our English compatriots studied the reality of English history, they have much to be proud of.

[nontabury]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

Totally correct SC, I'm a bit wary of getting into the reality of English history as there will be an automatic emotional reaction. The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta, the greatest gift to the world was the dedication to fairness under the Law. The greatest King in English history was Henry VIII, he was the first King to make England autonomous, every other King that preceded him bowed to Rome.

It would be better that some of our English compatriots studied the reality of English history, they have much to be proud of.

It was King Henry viii who founded the Royal Navy,one of the reasons,was to fight the Scots and French,he also liked to do land battle with the Scots, giving them a bloody nose on many occasion. SO WHAT,this is just history,the world is becoming a smaller place,yet SOME people would rather we revert to our old tribes,the problem is how far do you go back,and where do you start from, perhaps you should ask the people of the Shetlands and Orkneys.

This does not mean I think we should all eat MacDonalds,we can still have our own little differences. One thing I will give to the Scott's is there willingness to accept manufactured custom's and myths,whereas the English have had their heritage knocked out of them,unfortunately on many occasions by successive Scottish politicians.Not that these politicians should take the full responsibility,at the end of the day the English idle stood by and allowed it to happen.

Edited December 15, 2012 by nontabury

[phuketjock]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

Totally correct SC, I'm a bit wary of getting into the reality of English history as there will be an automatic emotional reaction. The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta, the greatest gift to the world was the dedication to fairness under the Law. The greatest King in English history was Henry VIII, he was the first King to make England autonomous, every other King that preceded him bowed to Rome.

It would be better that some of our English compatriots studied the reality of English history, they have much to be proud of.

It was King Henry viii who founded the Royal Navy,one of the reasons,was to fight the Scots and French,he also liked to do land battle with the Scots, giving them a bloody nose on many occasion. SO WHAT,this is just history,the world is becoming a smaller place,yet SOME people would rather we revert to our old tribes,the problem is how far do you go back,and where do you start from, perhaps you should ask the people of the Shetlands and Orkneys.

This does not mean I think we should all eat MacDonalds,we can still have our own little differences. One thing I will give to the Scott's is there willingness to accept manufactured custom's and myths,whereas the English have had their heritage knocked out of them,unfortunately on many occasions by successive Scottish politicians.Not that these politicians should take the full responsibility,at the end of the day the English idle stood by and allowed it to happen.

And does this rant have a point??? or are you just letting off steam?

[theblether]

@phuketjock......it's a prime example of what I was talking about.

[phuketjock]

@phuketjock......it's a prime example of what I was talking about.

Yes,

I expect very soon that the Mars rover will somehow have a role to play in the

Scottish independance debate!!!

They have tried just about everything else.

Edited December 15, 2012 by phuketjock

[folium]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

Totally correct SC, I'm a bit wary of getting into the reality of English history as there will be an automatic emotional reaction. The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta, the greatest gift to the world was the dedication to fairness under the Law. The greatest King in English history was Henry VIII, he was the first King to make England autonomous, every other King that preceded him bowed to Rome.

It would be better that some of our English compatriots studied the reality of English history, they have much to be proud of.

Oi, I thought I was supposed to be the historian round here, and discussing Ireland as well. PJ must be having kittens!!

Greatest British monarchs? Short list would be Elizabeth I, Victoria, Elizabeth II and your Henry VIII ( though remember he was given the title Fidei Defensor by the Pope for his vigorous denunciation of Luther, hence the FD on current British coins).

More relevant to the debate the British empire peaked economically in the first decade of the 20th century, a perfect example of the "united we conquer", a concept that remains true today albeit on a much diminished scale.

People on both sides of the Tweed have much to be proud of in terms of British history....

[nontabury]

To Phuketjock and theBlether

Touchy,Touchy. Hit a nerve have I?

So the truth hurts. Better to go back to your rose tinted glasses.

[phuketjock]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

Totally correct SC, I'm a bit wary of getting into the reality of English history as there will be an automatic emotional reaction. The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta, the greatest gift to the world was the dedication to fairness under the Law. The greatest King in English history was Henry VIII, he was the first King to make England autonomous, every other King that preceded him bowed to Rome.

It would be better that some of our English compatriots studied the reality of English history, they have much to be proud of.

Oi, I thought I was supposed to be the historian round here, and discussing Ireland as well. PJ must be having kittens!!

Greatest British monarchs? Short list would be Elizabeth I, Victoria, Elizabeth II and your Henry VIII ( though remember he was given the title Fidei Defensor by the Pope for his vigorous denunciation of Luther, hence the FD on current British coins).

More relevant to the debate the British empire peaked economically in the first decade of the 20th century, a perfect example of the "united we conquer", a concept that remains true today albeit on a much diminished scale.

People on both sides of the Tweed have much to be proud of in terms of British history....

Don't know about kittens folium, but I am sure having a laugh.

That nontabury's a scream as well no kidding

Edited December 15, 2012 by phuketjock

[theblether]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy and that's where the term "lymie" came from. Not sure what happened to that empire but still are huge numbers of English around the world especially in Thailand. I bet they make up 75% of the expat population here. I guess that's a topic for another post.

I don't think England was ever that powerful. The United Kingdom arguably reached its zenith in the 19th century (some may say that after the Brits in the southern half of North America declared UDI, its been downhill ever since). Unfortunately, too many of us within and outwith our the Kingdom's borders fail to appreciate the benefits of synergy that the diverse elements of the United Kingdom bring.

SC

Totally correct SC, I'm a bit wary of getting into the reality of English history as there will be an automatic emotional reaction. The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta, the greatest gift to the world was the dedication to fairness under the Law. The greatest King in English history was Henry VIII, he was the first King to make England autonomous, every other King that preceded him bowed to Rome.

It would be better that some of our English compatriots studied the reality of English history, they have much to be proud of.

Oi, I thought I was supposed to be the historian round here, and discussing Ireland as well. PJ must be having kittens!!

Greatest British monarchs? Short list would be Elizabeth I, Victoria, Elizabeth II and your Henry VIII ( though remember he was given the title Fidei Defensor by the Pope for his vigorous denunciation of Luther, hence the FD on current British coins).

More relevant to the debate the British empire peaked economically in the first decade of the 20th century, a perfect example of the "united we conquer", a concept that remains true today albeit on a much diminished scale.

People on both sides of the Tweed have much to be proud of in terms of British history....

Could you have a word with Nontabury please, he must have missed the history day at school

[theblether]

I don't agree with Victoria or Elizabeth II, they ( don't ) didn't have the executive power that the previous nominees did. Henry VIII was the guy who took it all upon his massive shoulders for purely selfish reasons, and look what he created? England, proud and Independent, and his daughter carried the candle well.

However it's Henry VIII for me, the atypical flawed genius.

[folium]

Don't know about kittens folium, but I am sure having a laugh.

That nontabury's a scream as well no kidding

Well, Christmas is the time to be charitable to those less fortunate....!

[nontabury]

To theBlether

Perhaps it would be better if you went back to school.

Battle of Flodden 1513,where the invading Scots army under king James iv was heavily defeated by the English in the largest ever battle between the two countries.King James being one of the fatal casualties.this invasion was carried out at the bequest of the France,who at this time were at war with Henry's England.

King James Iv infant son (King Henry's nephew)was then made king of Scotland,with a French puppet as regent until he deserted in 1524.however Henry was still wary of the French,

And so built up the Royal Navy.

I would like to add that this information was not obtained from Google,as I know you do not like that source, if it does not agree with you.

Again I would like to re-state my belief that this is all history,and that is where it should remain,

The year is now 2012 .

Edited December 15, 2012 by nontabury

[theblether]

To theBlether

Perhaps it would be better if you went back to school.

Battle of Flodden 1513,where the invading Scots army under king James iv was heavily defeated by the English in the largest ever battle between the two countries.King James being one of the fatal casualties.this invasion was carried out at the bequest of the France,who at this time were at war with Henry's England.

King James Iv infant son (King Henry's nephew)was then made king of Scotland,with a French puppet as regent until he deserted in 1524.however Henry was still wary of the French,

And so built up the Royal Navy.

I would like to add that this information was not obtained from Google,as I know you do not like that source, if it does not agree with you.

Again I would like to re-state my belief that this is all history,and that is where it should remain,

The year is now 2012 .

I can't be bothered nontabury......I don't know why you think the Battle of Flodden would be news to me........and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that history should stay in the past.

Folium in particular and others already recognize that the ascendancy of the British Isles came after the Act of Union, too many Englishmen have a fantastical view of their history. The truth is scarier, more interesting, flukish and compelling than any novelist could dream of.

[endure]

England used to be an awesome power. I was reading somewhere recently that they have invaded all but 26 countries in the world at some point in history. They owned the high seas and on those boats there was a lot of scurvy. They used lyme to treat the scurvy

Slight historical correction. Scurvy is caused by a lack of vitamin C. Humans (and guinea pigs) are unable to synthesise vitamin C and have to obtain it through their diet. Limes (and the other citrus fruits) have high concentrations of vit. C and it was these that were given to sailors to treat scurvy. Hence the 'lymie' as Nana Cowboy says.

[theblether]

ps My complaint about Google is that it's excellent at answering specific questions, crap at telling you the overall story. I end up with my eyes glazing over as yet another off topic link get's fired in and presented as if it's the Word Of The Lord.

In the last couple of pages I've just been "told" about the Battle of Flodden and had a prediction of civil war in Glasgow.

<deleted>.

I'm starting to get the idea that some of you think I'm an imbecile

[phuketjock]

ps My complaint about Google is that it's excellent at answering specific questions, crap at telling you the overall story. I end up with my eyes glazing over as yet another off topic link get's fired in and presented as if it's the Word Of The Lord.

In the last couple of pages I've just been "told" about the Battle of Flodden and had a prediction of civil war in Glasgow.

<deleted>.

I'm starting to get the idea that some of you think I'm an imbecile

Believe me blether if there are any imbeciles here you are not one of them

[folium]

To theBlether

Perhaps it would be better if you went back to school.

Battle of Flodden 1513,where the invading Scots army under king James iv was heavily defeated by the English in the largest ever battle between the two countries.King James being one of the fatal casualties.this invasion was carried out at the bequest of the France,who at this time were at war with Henry's England.

King James Iv infant son (King Henry's nephew)was then made king of Scotland,with a French puppet as regent until he deserted in 1524.however Henry was still wary of the French,

And so built up the Royal Navy.

I would like to add that this information was not obtained from Google,as I know you do not like that source, if it does not agree with you.

Again I would like to re-state my belief that this is all history,and that is where it should remain,

The year is now 2012 .

I can't be bothered nontabury......I don't know why you think the Battle of Flodden would be news to me........and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that history should stay in the past.

Folium in particular and others already recognize that the ascendancy of the British Isles came after the Act of Union, too many Englishmen have a fantastical view of their history. The truth is scarier, more interesting, flukish and compelling than any novelist could dream of.

The establishment of the colonies in America and the Carribean were well in place prior to the Act of Union, as was the creation of the East India Company and regrettably the Royal African Company. The greatest deal of all time had also been completed prior to 1707, with a nutmeg traded for Manhattan.

Post 1707 the addition of some excellent soldiers, entrepreneurs and inventors ( like your buddy with the lump of rock on Glasgow Green), further enhanced the acceleration to global dominance.

[7by7]

The greatest achievement in English history was the Magna Carta

Seriously, I would say that the three greatest gifts of the English to the world are:

• Parliamentary democracy (with help from the Swedes and, yes, the Scots).
  
• English common law
  
• and, dare I say it, the English language.
  

But this is a topic about the future of Scotland, not English history.

[7by7]

For those that are interested in the history of the union, I recommend Acts of Union: The creation of the United Kingdom by Professor Allan I. Macinnes.

Financial issues became critical as England embarked upon the War of the Spanish Succession. Because the Jacobites were strongly backed by Louis XIV of France, this engagement could well have turned into a war for the British succession.

Renewal of war further exposed a demographic crisis in England and brought about a major shift in government policy in favour of union.

England had insufficient manpower to fight wars, sustain manufacturing and expand its empire. The Scots were a ready reservoir.

Queen Anne played a proactive role in the making of the United Kingdom, not least because she was outraged by the endeavours of the Scottish estates to impose limitations on the prerogative powers of her eventual successor.

If the price of union and the Hanoverian succession was to be the termination of the Scottish estates, so be it. In turn, leading members of the estates, intent on preserving the royal prerogative, securing the Presbyterian Kirk and attaining greater career opportunities through empire promoted Union.

In his monograph Union and Empire: The Making of the United Kingdom in 1707 (Cambridge, 2007) Professor Macinnes argues that

Scottish politicians who negotiated the Treaty of Union were not "a parcel of rogues bought for English gold", but politically inept negotiators.

(Source)

"Politically inept negotiators." Now which current, prominent Scottish politician does that remind us of? Hint; AS.

Edited December 15, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

One of the strengths of TV is the breadth of knowledge.

I'm not daft.........so here's an admission.

I fell out with AS, I told him to shut his mouth and concentrate on Law and Order.

He replied I'll do what I like.....

So I said to him, you don't say that to me......

He said and why's that....

Edited December 16, 2012 by theblether

[theblether]

The next time he went to China he found out why.

[theblether]

I kinda thought some of you would be nosey to find out why......oh well.

[StreetCowboy]

I kinda thought some of you would be nosey to find out why......oh well.

If I'd waited for prompting, the rugby league thread would've died years ago. If you want to tell us, tell us. If you don't, then don't bother.

Please, don't feel under any pressure...

Which reminds me, I'll try to get the pictures from Dubai up tomorrow, and tell you about the best value taxi I've had in years

SC

[theblether]

I kinda thought some of you would be nosey to find out why......oh well.

If I'd waited for prompting, the rugby league thread would've died years ago. If you want to tell us, tell us. If you don't, then don't bother.

Please, don't feel under any pressure...

Which reminds me, I'll try to get the pictures from Dubai up tomorrow, and tell you about the best value taxi I've had in years

SC

The Dubai taxi story is probably more interesting than mine to be fair .