Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[rgs2001uk]

I do bizarre quite well but it does not detract from my opinions

I suggest that turnout depends on many more things than motivation. To a person with a high level of political interest it is unthinkable not to vote, but there is a huge number of people who really don't care much and will only vote if it's not raining and the queue is not too long, etc. Firing them up is what campaigning is all about, but campaigning tends to use tricks and half-truths, where-as in here we are not campaigning, we are debating, so there's no need to hide from facts.

It's not unreasonable to guess that Obama won twice because he is patently the better man. But USA politics is a different animal in many ways, so comparisons are complicated and rarely present any clarity.

The inclusion of young voters is perfectly reasonable if you take a view that the future is theirs, so they should have a say in what happens. I am unaware of any reports that under-25's are the "worst" voting group.

The assumption that UK will get out of the EU is founded on minority populist rhetoric and wishful thinking. The reality is that UK is now committed to the EU as a trading group and benefits from the world-wide recognition of the standards. Scots are already in the EU and the brussels factor is part of daily life, so staying in will produce "no change" in that regard and is a non-topic in campaigning.

The chances of the UK joining the euro are very slim indeed because that would put the regulation of UK banks beyong the reach of London, and that is patently unacceptable to the City.

2 years is just the final run-up to the vote. What many people fail to recognise is that independence was already high on the agenda during the last Scottish parliament vote, and pro-independence won that day in no uncertain fashion. What is actually happening now is a process in which everyone is being given a huge amount of time to decide what they really want. Debates such as this one will run in countless places across Scotland and absolutely no-one can say that they didn't have time to think it through.

Many countries, including some of the supposedly greatest, would do well to look at the process currently going on in Scotland. It is a master lesson in democracy.

The chances of the UK joining the euro are very slim indeed because that would put the regulation of UK banks beyong the reach of London, and that is patently unacceptable to the City.

As of yet I am unaware what fiscal policy an indepandant Scotland will adopt, Pound or Euro?

Will those of us who hold investments with the likes of Alliance and Baillie Gifford be offered the choice of keeping our investments in Pound Sterling or will they automatically be transferred over to Euros?

I wonder what, what if scenarios are taking place right now at the above mentioned institutions, financial turmoil as the pension funds and corporate investors and the small guy in the street cash in and move elsewhere to a Euro free investment choice.

If you are unaware of the proposed fiscal policy - please don't be an alarmist about it.

I am genuinely unaware, so I intend to be proactive, hence the question.

May have to bed & breakfast.

[phuketjock]

From your very own source yet again folium

" A Scottish government spokesman said: "With 24 billion barrels of oil still to be recovered with a wholesale value of £1.5 trillion, the North Sea oil and gas sector has a bright future, underlined just this week with Dana Petroleum's announcement of a £1bn development, demonstrating the continuing growth of Scotland's energy sector.

"Professor Kemp's latest analysis shows the Treasury will have taken £10 billion from Scotland's North Sea in 2011-12 at a time when Scotland is facing the prospect of up to five more years of UK austerity

"The CPPR acknowledge the OBR's forecasts, which are pessimistic relative to many others, should not be seen as the definitive picture, with the UK government's own energy department expecting oil prices of $120 in 2017.

"An independent Scotland will be able to face the difficult financial choices ahead from a stronger position than in the UK and use the full range of economic levers to support growth, boost revenues and deliver public services." "

You really should read your whole source before you jump in!!!!

Try reading the whole piece not just the bits that fit your argument.

PS Scottish government spokesman are unlikely to be unbiased.

I'm sorry folly I can pick the bits I like just as you can pick the bits you like and

you were the one who chose to post the article so that makes all of it fair game

It's a matter of opinion what is biased and what is not so if you don't wish me to

use it don't give me the ammo simple as that sunshine.

Hmmm...

The author of the report from the CPPR is a certain Mr John McLaren. http://www.cppr.ac.u.../cppr/whoweare/

"John worked as a researcher for the Labour Party for a year leading up to the first election (1999) of the new Scottish Parliament, being subsequently appointed as a Special Adviser by Donald Dewar, and then by Henry McLeish, for the period up to 2001. John was a member of the Labour Party from 2000 to 2005. In 2006 John was hired by the Labour Party on a consultancy basis to undertake work leading up to the 2007 election."

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics....

So he is your unbiased report author then folly????

[endure]

Can we keep the Muslims out of this thread please. It's about Scottish independence.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. This topic is not about the people posting, it is about an issue. Stick to the issue and refrain from making comments about other posters. Continuing to disregard this directive will result in suspensions.

If you have nothing to add, then feel free to stop posting.

[jpinx]

I do bizarre quite well but it does not detract from my opinions

I suggest that turnout depends on many more things than motivation. To a person with a high level of political interest it is unthinkable not to vote, but there is a huge number of people who really don't care much and will only vote if it's not raining and the queue is not too long, etc. Firing them up is what campaigning is all about, but campaigning tends to use tricks and half-truths, where-as in here we are not campaigning, we are debating, so there's no need to hide from facts.

It's not unreasonable to guess that Obama won twice because he is patently the better man. But USA politics is a different animal in many ways, so comparisons are complicated and rarely present any clarity.

The inclusion of young voters is perfectly reasonable if you take a view that the future is theirs, so they should have a say in what happens. I am unaware of any reports that under-25's are the "worst" voting group.

The assumption that UK will get out of the EU is founded on minority populist rhetoric and wishful thinking. The reality is that UK is now committed to the EU as a trading group and benefits from the world-wide recognition of the standards. Scots are already in the EU and the brussels factor is part of daily life, so staying in will produce "no change" in that regard and is a non-topic in campaigning.

The chances of the UK joining the euro are very slim indeed because that would put the regulation of UK banks beyong the reach of London, and that is patently unacceptable to the City.

2 years is just the final run-up to the vote. What many people fail to recognise is that independence was already high on the agenda during the last Scottish parliament vote, and pro-independence won that day in no uncertain fashion. What is actually happening now is a process in which everyone is being given a huge amount of time to decide what they really want. Debates such as this one will run in countless places across Scotland and absolutely no-one can say that they didn't have time to think it through.

Many countries, including some of the supposedly greatest, would do well to look at the process currently going on in Scotland. It is a master lesson in democracy.

The chances of the UK joining the euro are very slim indeed because that would put the regulation of UK banks beyong the reach of London, and that is patently unacceptable to the City.

As of yet I am unaware what fiscal policy an indepandant Scotland will adopt, Pound or Euro?

Will those of us who hold investments with the likes of Alliance and Baillie Gifford be offered the choice of keeping our investments in Pound Sterling or will they automatically be transferred over to Euros?

I wonder what, what if scenarios are taking place right now at the above mentioned institutions, financial turmoil as the pension funds and corporate investors and the small guy in the street cash in and move elsewhere to a Euro free investment choice.

If you are unaware of the proposed fiscal policy - please don't be an alarmist about it.

I am genuinely unaware, so I intend to be proactive, hence the question.

May have to bed & breakfast.

Fairy snuff Possibly it isbetter to inform yourself from sources other than our commentary here, and that will bring fresh information and perspectives to the debate.

As far as I know the intention is to keep Sterling for now, but independence is a new road and we would be silly to cast everything in concrete beforehand. Building options is what it is all about, but that requires a flexibility of thought and an ability to grasp opportunities - both of which things are somewhat disturbing to conservative minds who like everything to be predictable.

[rgs2001uk]

I am genuinely unaware, so I intend to be proactive, hence the question.

May have to bed & breakfast.

Fairy snuff Possibly it isbetter to inform yourself from sources other than our commentary here, and that will bring fresh information and perspectives to the debate.

As far as I know the intention is to keep Sterling for now, but independence is a new road and we would be silly to cast everything in concrete beforehand. Building options is what it is all about, but that requires a flexibility of thought and an ability to grasp opportunities - both of which things are somewhat disturbing to conservative minds who like everything to be predictable.

Where would those sources be?

Building options, yes for me it was about building a retirement portfolio.

Well call me a fisacal conservative, but I like markets that give stability.

Sorry not willing to risk what I have strived and saved for, and until such times as people can give answers I will be proactive and B&B.

[Richard W]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term...<snip>

Of course, this assumes that the proper unit is just Scotland, not Scotland plus Northern Ireland. Is some people's refusal to contemplate the concept of the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland based simply on the cost of supporting Northern Ireland?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Richard W

[jpinx]

Where would those sources be?

Building options, yes for me it was about building a retirement portfolio.

Well call me a fisacal conservative, but I like markets that give stability.

Sorry not willing to risk what I have strived and saved for, and until such times as people can give answers I will be proactive and B&B.

I'd suggest Google, but I dont like to insult your intelligence

As for your retirement portfolio, it's probably all controlled from the City anyway, so Scottish independence will have no impact.

Edited December 21, 2012 by jpinx

[phuketjock]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term...<snip>

Of course, this assumes that the proper unit is just Scotland, not Scotland plus Northern Ireland. Is some people's refusal to contemplate the concept of the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland based simply on the cost of supporting Northern Ireland?

Dear Richard W this thread is about a pending referendum regarding independance for Scotland

this has absolutelty nothing whatsoever to do with any relationship that may or may not exist

between Scotland and Northern Ireland your consistant pre-occupation with your concieved

possible relationship between the two is totally and utterly irrelevant, and just in case you have

not noticed everyone is ignoring you. So perhaps it may be time to drop it no???

[7by7]

We have been told that an independent Scotland will keep Sterling, that Scots will keep their British citizenship post independence and that negotiations with the EU over an independent Scotland's membership have already commenced (who is negotiating with whom?).

No evidence has been produced to support these assumptions, so I ask those making them one final time:

Where have you got this information from?

Do you have any evidence to support these assumptioms or not?

Ignoring these questions yet again can only mean that you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your assumptions, and therefore they are just that; assumptions of what you wish will happen which bear no relationship to the facts whatsoever.

[jpinx]

We have been told that an independent Scotland will keep Sterling, that Scots will keep their British citizenship post independence and that negotiations with the EU over an independent Scotland's membership have already commenced (who is negotiating with whom?).

No evidence has been produced to support these assumptions, so I ask those making them one final time:

Where have you got this information from?

Do you have any evidence to support these assumptioms or not?

Ignoring these questions yet again can only mean that you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your assumptions, and therefore they are just that; assumptions of what you wish will happen which bear no relationship to the facts whatsoever.

Once again- but for the last time.

UK already allows dual citizenship - there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly change that policy especially for Scots. (unless you know different)

Sterling is already in circulation in Scotland - there is no need to change that on Day 1 and UK has not voiced any objections to my knowledge (unless you know different)

SNP have been talking to EU for years already. Private talks are exactly that, but they are obviuously not talking about green fees on St Andrews. (unless you know different)

I pass the burden of proof back to you

Edited December 21, 2012 by jpinx

[jpinx]

The long term economic viability of an independent Scotland was raised today in a report from the Glasgow-based Centre for Public Policy for the Regions. Good news short term...<snip>

Of course, this assumes that the proper unit is just Scotland, not Scotland plus Northern Ireland. Is some people's refusal to contemplate the concept of the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland based simply on the cost of supporting Northern Ireland?

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

[phuketjock]

We have been told that an independent Scotland will keep Sterling, that Scots will keep their British citizenship post independence and that negotiations with the EU over an independent Scotland's membership have already commenced (who is negotiating with whom?).

No evidence has been produced to support these assumptions, so I ask those making them one final time:

Where have you got this information from?

Do you have any evidence to support these assumptioms or not?

Ignoring these questions yet again can only mean that you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your assumptions, and therefore they are just that; assumptions of what you wish will happen which bear no relationship to the facts whatsoever.

777

All of the points you have raised have been addressed more than once and

for sure there are no definitive absolute answers to any of them because all

of this new to everyone, Scotland has never had a referendum on independance

before.

There is one thing that is sure there will be a referendum and there will be many

many things to discuss and resolve and we will as an independant nation discuss

and resolve them as and when they crop up and when more come we will address

them as well. There is no one I know who wants independance for Scotland in any

way believes that this will be a cake walk but everyone of those people believe what

ever the cost and whatever the effort required it will all be worth it with all of their

collective hearts and souls.

Scotland Forever!!!!

[Richard W]

UK already allows dual citizenship - there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly change that policy especially for Scots. (unless you know different)

Policy has been that when crown dominions become independent countries, those acquiring the nationality of the new country lose British nationality unless they also have an association with the remaining dominions or the new country does not allow dual nationality. (This is regardless of whether the new country becomes a dominion.) I too do not expect a change in policy. I expect British nationals to be divvied up (yours, ours and dual). Note that this policy is consistent with allowing dual nationality.

I would expect the provisions for *British* citizens to automatically receive Scottish citizenship (or retain London-associated citizenship) to be more generous than the provisions for automatically having British citizenship.

Some of the suggestions for Scottish citizens to retain nationality imply that loss of one nationality or the other will start in the next generation.

Does anyone expect Englishmen with no connection to Scotland to be have Scottish nationality? If not, why should Scots with no connection to any another country have anything but Scottish nationality?

I expect that existing passports evidencing that the holder was a national of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would normally remain valid until they expire. The new governments do need to assure other governments over the deportability of British citizens - otherwise, visas or new passports may be required where currently they are not.

The only drastic change I envisage is a panicky deportation of extreme undesirables, including those with serious criminal convictions. As both sides can play at this, I do not approve of it.

[Richard W]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

[jpinx]

UK already allows dual citizenship - there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly change that policy especially for Scots. (unless you know different)

Policy has been that when crown dominions become independent countries, those acquiring the nationality of the new country lose British nationality unless they also have an association with the remaining dominions or the new country does not allow dual nationality. (This is regardless of whether the new country becomes a dominion.) I too do not expect a change in policy. I expect British nationals to be divvied up (yours, ours and dual). Note that this policy is consistent with allowing dual nationality.

I would expect the provisions for *British* citizens to automatically receive Scottish citizenship (or retain London-associated citizenship) to be more generous than the provisions for automatically having British citizenship.

Some of the suggestions for Scottish citizens to retain nationality imply that loss of one nationality or the other will start in the next generation.

Does anyone expect Englishmen with no connection to Scotland to be have Scottish nationality? If not, why should Scots with no connection to any another country have anything but Scottish nationality?

I expect that existing passports evidencing that the holder was a national of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would normally remain valid until they expire. The new governments do need to assure other governments over the deportability of British citizens - otherwise, visas or new passports may be required where currently they are not.

The only drastic change I envisage is a panicky deportation of extreme undesirables, including those with serious criminal convictions. As both sides can play at this, I do not approve of it.

Scotland is not a "Crown Dominion" so most of those comments are irrelevant. A better comparison is what happened when Ireland became independent. I certainly do not envisage Scotland banning dual citizenship so there will be a period of time while the details of the rules about "appropriate association" are resolved and people can decide what passport(s) they want to hold. It will probably come down to the detail of a persons connections within the remaining UK at the time of renewal of his/her passport.

In reality dual passport holders are liable for deportation for misdemeanours in one of their "home" countries, even if that passport was not used to gain entry to whatever country they are lurking in. The only issues are whether the authorities can match the person to their second passport and locate him/her. On this basis the interaction between UK, Scottish and rest-of-the-world governments will not be significant in the early days. Maybe they will tweak the rules later, but it's a non-issue for the independence vote.

Discussing "Engish" people who might want Scottish passports is also a red herring. If they have the appropriate connections they can surely have a Scottish passport.

Deporting undesireables is another red-herring - whatever one's opinons are about it's rights and wrongs. It certainly will not prevent independence from happening if that is the vote. It's more likely to happen in the form of prisoner exchange over a longer period of time.

[jpinx]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

This is a referendum by the Scottish electorate on independence for Scotland. There has never been any mention of Northern Ireland. Please stay on topic. What happens between England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scotland leaves the Union is not up for discussion here as it does not affect Scotland.

[bigbamboo]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

This is a referendum by the Scottish electorate on independence for Scotland. There has never been any mention of Northern Ireland. Please stay on topic. What happens between England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scotland leaves the Union is not up for discussion here as it does not affect Scotland.

Ah, if it was only as simple as that.

Scotland or any other constituent part of the UK which was granted independence ( and it would be granted) would then have to unravel itself from the union and that will be a nightmare.

[7by7]

We have been told that an independent Scotland will keep Sterling, that Scots will keep their British citizenship post independence and that negotiations with the EU over an independent Scotland's membership have already commenced (who is negotiating with whom?).

No evidence has been produced to support these assumptions, so I ask those making them one final time:

Where have you got this information from?

Do you have any evidence to support these assumptions or not?

Ignoring these questions yet again can only mean that you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your assumptions, and therefore they are just that; assumptions of what you wish will happen which bear no relationship to the facts whatsoever.

Once again- but for the last time.

UK already allows dual citizenship - there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly change that policy especially for Scots. (unless you know different)

Sterling is already in circulation in Scotland - there is no need to change that on Day 1 and UK has not voiced any objections to my knowledge (unless you know different)

SNP have been talking to EU for years already. Private talks are exactly that, but they are obviuously not talking about green fees on St Andrews. (unless you know different)

I pass the burden of proof back to you

So because you cannot prove that your assumptions are correct, you expect me to prove them to be incorrect.

Amazing.

But I'll have a go.

British nationality.

I am well aware that the UK allows dual nationality; both my wife and daughter are dual nationals, British and Thai. I suspect that I have more of an understanding of dual nationality than you; have a read of my posts on the subject in the visas and migration to other countries forum if you don't believe me.

Despite the difficulties of proving a negative, I have done some research.

Opinions on this can be split into three groups.

1) The SNP position. Scots will be dual nationals; British and Scottish, for evermore. This may be what the SNP want; but why would the British government allow it?

As has been stated, all the precedents are that when a country becomes independent the citizens of that new country become citizens of that country; they do not retain citizenship of their former rulers.

Citizens of the RoI do not have dual nationality; Irish and British.

Similarly, citizens of what used to be the British empire do not have British citizenship; they are citizens of their independent states.

Just because Salmond wants something wont make it happen.

2) Those Scots who are currently British will remain so until they die and will also, if they qualify, be Scottish. Those born in Scotland after independence will be Scottish only and if they want to be British as well will have to meet the naturalisation requirements that all foreigners must satisfy in order to be naturalised as British.

I think that this is the most likely option.

3) Upon Scottish independence, those living in Scotland will lose their British nationality and become Scottish citizens only.

This could cause all sorts of problems; not least among English Welsh and Northern Irish living in Scotland and, of course, Scottish ex pats.

Scottish currency post independence.

Yes, Scotland currently uses Sterling and has done for many years; it is part of the Uk and Sterling is the currency of the UK.

But why would the British government and the Bank of England allow them to continue to do so after independence?

Why would an independent Scotland want to, anyway? Why gain independence and then hand one of the main functions of any government, fiscal policy, straight back to Westminster and the Bank of England?

Moot point anyway, as under existing EU law Scotland will be unable to join the EU unless it adopts the Euro.

Negotiations between the EU and SNP on Scottish membership post independence

These have been going on in secret for years, have they?

So secret that nobody knows about them; except you, apparently.

How come you know? Are you party to them? In which case, as they are so secret even the braggart Salmond wont talk about them, should you really be talking about them on a public forum?

Again I ask; do you have any evidence to support these assumptions or not?

Edited December 21, 2012 by 7by7

[jpinx]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

This is a referendum by the Scottish electorate on independence for Scotland. There has never been any mention of Northern Ireland. Please stay on topic. What happens between England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scotland leaves the Union is not up for discussion here as it does not affect Scotland.

Ah, if it was only as simple as that.

Scotland or any other constituent part of the UK which was granted independence ( and it would be granted) would then have to unravel itself from the union and that will be a nightmare.

Please define "unravel itself from the union" and then read this thread through to find many answers.

[7by7]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

[jpinx]

We have been told that an independent Scotland will keep Sterling, that Scots will keep their British citizenship post independence and that negotiations with the EU over an independent Scotland's membership have already commenced (who is negotiating with whom?).

No evidence has been produced to support these assumptions, so I ask those making them one final time:

Where have you got this information from?

Do you have any evidence to support these assumptions or not?

Ignoring these questions yet again can only mean that you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your assumptions, and therefore they are just that; assumptions of what you wish will happen which bear no relationship to the facts whatsoever.

Once again- but for the last time.

UK already allows dual citizenship - there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly change that policy especially for Scots. (unless you know different)

Sterling is already in circulation in Scotland - there is no need to change that on Day 1 and UK has not voiced any objections to my knowledge (unless you know different)

SNP have been talking to EU for years already. Private talks are exactly that, but they are obviuously not talking about green fees on St Andrews. (unless you know different)

I pass the burden of proof back to you

So because you cannot prove that your assumptions are correct, you expect me to prove them to be incorrect.

Amazing.

But I'll have a go.

British nationality.

I am well aware that the UK allows dual nationality; both my wife and daughter are dual nationals, British and Thai. I suspect that I have more of an understanding of dual nationality than you; have a read of my posts on the subject in the visas and migration to other countries forum if you don't believe me.

Despite the difficulties of proving a negative, I have done some research.

Opinions on this can be split into three groups.

1) The SNP position. Scots will be dual nationals; British and Scottish, for evermore. This may be what the SNP want; but why would the British government allow it?

As has been stated, all the precedents are that when a country becomes independent the citizens of that new country become citizens of that country; they do not retain citizenship of their former rulers.

Citizens of the RoI do not have dual nationality; Irish and British.

Similarly, citizens of what used to be the British empire do not have British citizenship; they are citizens of their independent states.

Just because Salmond wants something wont make it happen.

2) Those Scots who are currently British will remain so until they die and will also, if they qualify, be Scottish. Those born in Scotland after independence will be Scottish only and if they want to be British as well will have to meet the naturalisation requirements that all foreigners must satisfy in order to be naturalised as British.

I think that this is the most likely option.

3) Upon Scottish independence, those living in Scotland will lose their British nationality and become Scottish citizens only.

This could cause all sorts of problems; not least among English Welsh and Northern Irish living in Scotland and, of course, Scottish ex pats.

Scottish currency post independence.

Yes, Scotland currently uses Sterling and has done for many years; it is part of the Uk and Sterling is the currency of the UK.

But why would the British government and the Bank of England allow them to continue to do so after independence?

Why would an independent Scotland want to, anyway? Why gain independence and then hand one of the main functions of any government, fiscal policy, straight back to Westminster and the Bank of England?

Moot point anyway, as under existing EU law Scotland will be unable to join the EU unless it adopts the Euro.

Negotiations between the EU and SNP on Scottish membership post independence

These have been going on in secret for years, have they?

So secret that nobody knows about them; except you, apparently.

How come you know? Are you party to them? In which case, as they are so secret even the braggart Salmond wont talk about them, should you really be talking about them on a public forum?

Again I ask; do you have any evidence to support these assumptions or not?

Ouch! My laptop screen is too small for all this

I know you by virtue of your helpful postings and your depth of knowledge of visas. I appreciate that very much

Citizens of RoI can have multiple passports. I have personal and first hand knowledge of family who all have both RoI and UK, and one who can have three passports.

As someone else pointed out - there is a transition period after independence to allow the rules of association to be agreed and people to renew their passports. Having said that - there is no way that UK will refuse dual passports to independent Scots who have the appropriate association with UK.

You actually answered your own question in 2.) - most likely scenario. I'd agree

The continued use of sterling has raised no eyebrows in London that I've heard of - only in Bangkok

Interesting comment about EU membership being subject to joining the euro. Do you have a source for that?

In Edinburgh it is well-known that Scottish and EU people are talking and have been for a long time (years). The goalposts keep moving so there's nothing to get excited about, and we still have a 2 year wait during which time things will change again a few times, so nothing to report for now.

I'm happy for you to have a go at Salmond - he's a politican and fair game - but please don't ignore the will of the people come voting day

[Richard W]

Scotland is not a "Crown Dominion" so most of those comments are irrelevant.

A better comparison is what happened when Ireland became independent. I certainly do not envisage Scotland banning dual citizenship so there will be a period of time while the details of the rules about "appropriate association" are resolved and people can decide what passport(s) they want to hold. It will probably come down to the detail of a persons connections within the remaining UK at the time of renewal of his/her passport.

Perhaps my grammar is at fault. England and Scotland are prototypical parts of the crown dominion. For 'a crown dominion', read 'a part of the crown dominion'. My comments therefore remain relevant.

Irish independence is not as good a comparison as one might hope. When Ireland became independent (1922), the idea of common citizenship associated with the whole of the crown dominion was still extant. The idea was dying as Ireland left the Commonwealth.

The period of time for decisions is before independence. When you say 'connections with the remaining UK' I presume you mean 'connections with the remaining UK and with Scotland'. I would expect David Cameron, for example, to have dual nationality. (This seems to make him an unsuitable person to negotiate on behalf of the 'rest of the UK'!)

In reality dual passport holders are liable for deportation for misdemeanours in one of their "home" countries, even if that passport was not used to gain entry to whatever country they are lurking in. The only issues are whether the authorities can match the person to their second passport and locate him/her. On this basis the interaction between UK, Scottish and rest-of-the-world governments will not be significant in the early days. Maybe they will tweak the rules later, but it's a non-issue for the independence vote.

Passports are very useful for deporting people, which is one reason many people facing deportation destroy (or hide) theirs. If your passport does not identify where you can be deported to, expect to require a visa. For pre-split UK passports, I would expect place of birth in the pre-split UK to imply a country to which you can be deported. It is entirely possible that visa-free travel for British citizens on an old British passport will not be available for those born outside the current UK. These issues need to be clarified for foreign governments as soon as possible. It's probably not relevant for the independence vote, but then most of the discussions here have been on the consequences of Scotland becoming independent.

There is a difference between nationality and passports. I hope that holders of pre-split UK passports can continue to use them, even though the type of nationality they describe will have ceased to be. (Actually, it looks as if, for example, British Overseas Territory Citizenship will smoothly change into a type of citizenship associated with the rest of the UK and its overseas territories.)

Discussing "Engish" people who might want Scottish passports is also a red herring. If they have the appropriate connections they can surely have a Scottish passport.

There should be no difference between 'Scotland etc.' and 'rest of UK' - swapping them round should result in a valid statement, unless, as part of the independence arrangements, Scottish citizenship is extended to people who are currently not British citizens.

Deporting undesireables is another red-herring -...

Not if you want to make statements about what will not happen immediately independence comes into force.

Prisoner exchange should a benign feature.

[jpinx]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

Please define the difficulties which remain unaddressed. We employ beaurocrats to do the mechanics, we only have to decide policy. The Scots are well aware of what it will mean to be independent. If that was not the case the SNP would not be controlling the Scottish Parliament now

[jpinx]

All the talk about passports, citizenship, nationality, etc is not producing any much different answers to that proposed by 7by7 in his last note here under 2.)

Prisoner exchange should a benign feature.

Agreed totally and 110%

[7by7]

Ouch! My laptop screen is too small for all this

Know what you mean, even though I'm on a desk top! So rather than even more nested quotes, I'll just quote your relevant points and my responses.

Citizens of Roi can have multiple passports. I have personal and first hand knowledge of family who all have both RoI and UK, and one who can have three passports.

Indeed they can; the RoI allows dual or multiple nationality the same as most countries do these days.

But people born in the RoI are not British; unless they qualify by virtue of one or both of their parents being British otherwise than by descent (see here for what this means).

there is no way that UK will refuse dual passports to independent Scots who have the appropriate association with UK.

Appropriate association is the key. Why would the citizens of a newly independent Scotland be deemed to have such?

The continued use of sterling has raised no eyebrows in London that I've heard of

Maybe you should read the UK papers. There have been many articles on just this matter in the, for want of a better term, quality press. Such as Scottish independence: Alistair Darling challenges plans for currency union from the Guardian.

Interesting comment about EU membership being subject to joining the euro. Do you have a source for that?

How about the EU itself? Joining the EU

Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.

(my emphasis)

In Edinburgh it is well-known that Scottish and EU people are talking and have been for a long time (years).

If you say so; but how come none of this has appeared publicly anywhere that I can find? How come you can't find one single source to confirm this?

please don't ignore the will of the people come voting day

I have no intention of doing so. If the Scottish people are foolish enough to vote for independence, so be it. They will have made their bed and will have to lie on it.

[7by7]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

Please define the difficulties which remain unaddressed. We employ beaurocrats to do the mechanics, we only have to decide policy. The Scots are well aware of what it will mean to be independent. If that was not the case the SNP would not be controlling the Scottish Parliament now

I'll use your reply to bigbamboo and say go back through the thread. You'll find out the issues left unanswered by the pro SNP lobby very easily.

Ditto to why the SNP control the glorified county council which is the Scottish Parliament as presently constituted.

Edited December 21, 2012 by 7by7

[Richard W]

2) Those Scots who are currently British will remain so until they die and will also, if they qualify, be Scottish. Those born in Scotland after independence will be Scottish only and if they want to be British as well will have to meet the naturalisation requirements that all foreigners must satisfy in order to be naturalised as British.

I think that this is the most likely option.

Should the children born in Scotland to English parents after Scottish independence not be 'British'? That would be a vindictive law, quite unlike the handling of the Irish Republic.

Do you instead suggest a more restrictive vindictive law, such as persons born in an independent Scotland not automatically acquiring 'British' citizenship if a parent is a Scottish citizen, whereas the child born in Thailand to dual 'British'-Thai parents born in England would automatically acquire 'British' citizenship. Perhaps you're suggesting a non-vindictive law under which being born in country X, having a parent with the nationality of X, and thereby acquiring the nationality of X together preclude the automatic acquisition of 'British' citizenship.

[jpinx]

--- Know what you mean, even though I'm on a desk top! So rather than even more nested quotes, I'll just quote your relevant points and my responses.

same here.

But people born in the RoI are not British; unless they qualify by virtue of one or both of their parents being British otherwise than by descent (see here for what this means).

exactly - and I'd expect the situation with a Scot to be the same.

Appropriate association is the key. Why would the citizens of a newly independent Scotland be deemed to have such?

They won't - each case will be taken on merit.

Maybe you should read the UK papers. There have been many articles on just this matter in the, for want of a better term, quality press. Such as Scottish independence: Alistair Darling challenges plans for currency union from the Guardian.

I freely admit that I don't read the papers for this stuff, because so much of it is written with some other agenda in mind. The reality is that there is no option and both sides of the border will have to like it or lump it until a better solution can be found - unless the currency union continues happily.

How about the EU itself? Joining the EU

I've had a quick look and it's too complicated for this time of night But one thing that strikes me is that Bulgaria became a member and did not use the euro. I was living there at the time

If you say so; but how come none of this has appeared publicly anywhere that I can find? How come you can't find one single source to confirm this?

ok ok - I'll try to find a reference tomorrow if I have time, but bear in mind that it is talking about talking, so reportage is minimal to say the least.

I have no intention of doing so. If the Scottish people are foolish enough to vote for independence, so be it. They will have made their bed and will have to lie on it.

OK - I'll bite Why are you so vehemently against Scotland going independent?

Good night

Edited to add...

Links to articles about whatever is happening between Scotland and EU. I haven't read them myself, but I'm sure you'll précis them for me

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Business-Industry/support/17404/latest-news

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/sturgeon-accepts-reality-of-negotiated-entry-to-eu.19674977

http://www.bnegroup.org/media/scotsman-no-fast-tracked-application-for-eu-membership-after-independence-w/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/10/scotland-urgent-talks-eu-membership

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/eu-rebuffs-call-for-early-talks-as-sturgeon-tries-to-dig-party-out-of-euro-hole.19688997

Edited December 21, 2012 by jpinx

[Richard W]

As someone else pointed out - there is a transition period after independence to allow the rules of association to be agreed and people to renew their passports. Having said that - there is no way that UK will refuse dual passports to independent Scots who have the appropriate association with UK.

You actually answered your own question in 2.) - most likely scenario. I'd agree

It is not sure that anyone here has pointed out a transition period for citizenship; only a transition period where one hopes that pre-split passports will be accepted.

The conversation went:

A good percentage of us will choose to forgo Scottish passports, and continue to fly under the banner of Britain, many more will take the dual nationality option, and a fair few will travel travel under a Scottish passport alone. That's a matter of personal choice and conscience.

Would this be an asymmetric relationship, or are you suggesting a common nationality with the possible exceptions of treason and extra-territorial jurisdiction by nationality? Would this be a permanent option, or just a transitional arrangement?

@RichardW. I reckon it would be transitional, probably over a 10 year passport cycle. The EU citizenship issue trumps all, especially the Commonwealth issue.

I know of no example of planned post-independence negotiation of the rules of nationality, though there are many cases where nationality rules have changed after independence.

There are many cases where the citizenship rules are included in the constitution, usually established by an order-in-council for colonies. The constitution may explicitly allow statutes to provide additional routes to citizenship.