Rice Scandal: Thai Senators Want Court To Examine Rice Deals

[webfact]

RICE SCANDAL

Senators want court to examine rice deals

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- A group of senators yesterday asked the Senate to seek a Constitution Court ruling on whether the government violated the Constitution when entering into agreements to sell 7.32 million tonnes of rice to foreign countries.

The Group of 40 Senators, led by Paiboon Nititawan, submitted its request asking the Upper House speaker to refer its case to the Constitution Court.

Paiboon said yesterday that his group believed the government should have first sought endorsement from Parliament before entering into such agreements with the foreign rice buyers under government-to-government deals. He cited Article 190 of the charter, which states that a treaty with other countries or international organisations that has extensive impacts on national budgets, among other things, must be approved by the National Assembly.

The senator estimated that the government would obtain Bt114 billion from the sale of rice under G-to-G contracts, which would lead to a loss of between Bt44 billion and Bt51 billion. "The government will have to use the national budget to compensate for the loss," he added.

He also called on the Cabinet to explain to the public details of the massive rice sales reportedly made to foreign governments. Government figures have declined to discuss the matter in detail.

At yesterday's meeting of Parliament, opposition MPs complained that the previous meeting on October 2 was terminated prematurely by House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont. On that day, parliamentarians debated a request by the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (Nasa) to use the U-tapao military airport for a climate research study.

The government had called the meeting under Article 179 of the Constitution, which allows the Cabinet to request a general debate by the two Houses on "an important problem in the administration", without any resolution to be passed.

Opposition chief whip Jurin Laksanavisit yesterday said that the Oct 2 meeting was declared closed although many opposition MPs were waiting to take the floor. He suggested that the Parliament resume debating the Nasa request.

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva, who is also the opposition leader, said yesterday that the October 2 meeting was declared closed prematurely without with the meeting chair consulting the participants. He said the meeting chair also rejected a request by a Democrat MP to call a quorum count.

Senate Speaker Nikom Wairuchpanit, who chaired yesterday's meeting, said the chair had the power to close a meeting session without seeking a resolution. Participants of yesterday's meeting later debated Nikom's statement for more than two hours.

-- The Nation 2012-10-17

[allan michaud]

These supposed G2G deals are probably fictitious, given that they don't want to release any details of them to the public. Absolute farce.

[siampolee]

Seems as if there are some people who are actually concerned about the future of this country and its people, hopefully this move will lead to the disclosure of the true facts surrounding the Ponzi rice pledging scam scheme,

This gigantic fraud if it is not halted will indeed become an avalanche of debt for Thailand and its future generations for many years to come driving the country into the arms of the international money lenders thus Thailand will then be well on the way ( if not already so) to joining the Greek and Spanish bankruptcy clubs with their dubious membership benefits.

Edited October 17, 2012 by siampolee

[MaxLee]

Sorry folks, too late, the Thai justice system and the judges were already bribed by Yingluck and her Pheu Thai party before those senators could get a handle of it…

[Arkady]

We are back to the type of in-your-face corruption in the days of the construction of Swampy when pre-bidding qualifications included a brown envelope equivalent to 30% of the contract value delivered to a certain titled lady.

They must be either desperate for cash or cock sure again that they will never lose power or both.

[indyuk]

I read this article in disbelief. Just a few months ago the opposition complained about the low sales of Rice. Now the opposition are 'chewing at the bit' because the government have sold 7.32 million tons of Rice during the third quarter 2012 and forecast further sales of rice during the forth quarter of 2012 and during the first quarter 2013 at higher prices.

Further It is just a few weeks ago that Thai Visa reported that the opposition were implying that the Thai government are incompetent because Khun Abhisit had stated that "Thailand had lost influence the international market for rice".

However it would seem to me that during these difficult times that the Thai government is on track to secure Thailand's profitable future in the World market for her rice whilst retaining her position at the center of that market.

[MikeThaison]

However it would seem to me that during these difficult times that the Thai government is on track to secure Thailand's profitable future in the World market for her rice whilst retaining her position at the center of that market.

Open a new business and go buy products for 1000 thb and then go and sell them to people for 600thb, see how long you last. The gov is far from a profitable future. . .

[IMA_FARANG]

However it would seem to me that during these difficult times that the Thai government is on track to secure Thailand's profitable future in the World market for her rice whilst retaining her position at the center of that market.

Open a new business and go buy products for 1000 thb and then go and sell them to people for 600thb, see how long you last. The gov is far from a profitable future. . .

-------------------

Exactly.

Even a brain-damaged red shirt supporter couldn't praise a rice scheme which is buying rice at a higher price than it is selling that it as "progress".

No matter how many tons of rice are "sold".

Oh wait, many of them are claiming that.

Edited October 17, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[scar2]

I read this article in disbelief. Just a few months ago the opposition complained about the low sales of Rice. Now the opposition are 'chewing at the bit' because the government have sold 7.32 million tons of Rice during the third quarter 2012 and forecast further sales of rice during the forth quarter of 2012 and during the first quarter 2013 at higher prices.

Further It is just a few weeks ago that Thai Visa reported that the opposition were implying that the Thai government are incompetent because Khun Abhisit had stated that "Thailand had lost influence the international market for rice".

However it would seem to me that during these difficult times that the Thai government is on track to secure Thailand's profitable future in the World market for her rice whilst retaining her position at the center of that market.

Either you can’t read or you have a red blindfolded.

Selling rice for Bt114 billion would make the nation lose between Bt44 – Bt51 billion.

This will of course have impact on the national budget, and should by law have been approved by the National Assembly.

When the government doesn’t want to discuss or reveal any details, then it makes you wonder if there is any other deals made under the table that would benefit the few.

[khunken]

I read this article in disbelief. Just a few months ago the opposition complained about the low sales of Rice. Now the opposition are 'chewing at the bit' because the government have sold 7.32 million tons of Rice during the third quarter 2012 and forecast further sales of rice during the forth quarter of 2012 and during the first quarter 2013 at higher prices.

Further It is just a few weeks ago that Thai Visa reported that the opposition were implying that the Thai government are incompetent because Khun Abhisit had stated that "Thailand had lost influence the international market for rice".

However it would seem to me that during these difficult times that the Thai government is on track to secure Thailand's profitable future in the World market for her rice whilst retaining her position at the center of that market.

No one's complaining about the government selling rice. That's because only acolytes believe that it has sold anything. It won't release the details, no evidence of shipments have been seen & no supposed buyer has has admitted to buying any.

Profitable? Laughable. The reason for all the smoke & mirrors is that when they actually sell some rice, the loss will become evident. Abhisit is right, Thailand is losing out big time.

One only needs to look at the government scrambling to find more places to store the stuff - that they can't sell without admitting a loss (both of face & in Baht).

[bigbamboo]

I think I preferred Kittirat's white lies.

[OzMick]

Besides the ridiculous interpretations already pointed out, could you explain how Thailand will remain "at the centre of the market" by selling rice off-market? Is "at the centre" selling at a loss better than at the top i.e. as the world's largest exporter while still selling at a profit ?

[TomTao]

I don't remember where I saw this bit of information, could have been in another thread or in the newspaper, but I remember seeing it written that the governments which the Thai government said it had G2G agreements with said that they had no agreement to buy rice from the Thai government on a G2G basis.

Sent from my GT-I9003

[SICHONSTEVE]

Seems as if there are some people who are actually concerned about the future of this country and its people, hopefully this move will lead to the disclosure of the true facts surrounding the Ponzi rice pledging scam scheme,

This gigantic fraud if it is not halted will indeed become an avalanche of debt for Thailand and its future generations for many years to come driving the country into the arms of the international money lenders thus Thailand will then be well on the way ( if not already so) to joining the Greek and Spanish bankruptcy clubs with their dubious membership benefits.

You have got it wrong my friend!!

This is the brainchild of master idea formulator Thaksin Shinawatra so how could it possibly be bad?

Just to illustrate this point, have you heard about the stupidity of that unintelligent idiot Abhisit who suggested giving (some) of the money directly to the farmers!! I mean, how are the millers and exporters supposed to cheat the system? This would only benefit the hard working rice farmers which CANNOT be right and punishes the poor millers who are scraping a living (I bet they have to eat some of their own rice to survive) which will decimate their margins further and become intolerable to the point of despair!!!

Anyway, I think they should keep this fabulous rice pledging scheme going for decades otherwise many millers and exporters will suffer no end and the suicide rates in Thailand would surely escalate on account of this.

[hellodolly]

I read this article in disbelief. Just a few months ago the opposition complained about the low sales of Rice. Now the opposition are 'chewing at the bit' because the government have sold 7.32 million tons of Rice during the third quarter 2012 and forecast further sales of rice during the forth quarter of 2012 and during the first quarter 2013 at higher prices.

Further It is just a few weeks ago that Thai Visa reported that the opposition were implying that the Thai government are incompetent because Khun Abhisit had stated that "Thailand had lost influence the international market for rice".

However it would seem to me that during these difficult times that the Thai government is on track to secure Thailand's profitable future in the World market for her rice whilst retaining her position at the center of that market.

No one is complaining about the sale they are complaining about the sale at a big loss. Also if you keep up with it you will know that they are actively searching for more places to store the rice. Does that sound to you like they are doing good?

Sounds to me like there is more rice unsold than in the past.

[473geo]

sub·si·dy (sbs-d)n. pl. sub·si·dies

1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.

[thaicbr]

sub·si·dy (sbs-d)n. pl. sub·si·dies

1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.

Yes. But this is NOT a s.u.b.s.I.d.y

Because that is not allowed under ASEAN agreements.

And also subsidies usually go directly to the farmers. Ahhhh unless this subsidy is to support the millers and storage warehouses ... if so its working

sent from my ..................#

[Pi Sek]

Seems as if there are some people who are actually concerned about the future of this country and its people, hopefully this move will lead to the disclosure of the true facts surrounding the Ponzi rice pledging scam scheme,

This gigantic fraud if it is not halted will indeed become an avalanche of debt for Thailand and its future generations for many years to come driving the country into the arms of the international money lenders thus Thailand will then be well on the way ( if not already so) to joining the Greek and Spanish bankruptcy clubs with their dubious membership benefits.

You have got it wrong my friend!!

This is the brainchild of master idea formulator Thaksin Shinawatra so how could it possibly be bad?

Just to illustrate this point, have you heard about the stupidity of that unintelligent idiot Abhisit who suggested giving (some) of the money directly to the farmers!! I mean, how are the millers and exporters supposed to cheat the system? This would only benefit the hard working rice farmers which CANNOT be right and punishes the poor millers who are scraping a living (I bet they have to eat some of their own rice to survive) which will decimate their margins further and become intolerable to the point of despair!!!

Anyway, I think they should keep this fabulous rice pledging scheme going for decades otherwise many millers and exporters will suffer no end and the suicide rates in Thailand would surely escalate on account of this.

Either that or the nice rice milling pi-chai moo-ban will not deliver the vote for the village. They have expenses too, you know.

[473geo]

sub·si·dy (sbs-d)n. pl. sub·si·dies

1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.

Yes. But this is NOT a s.u.b.s.I.d.y

Because that is not allowed under ASEAN agreements.

And also subsidies usually go directly to the farmers. Ahhhh unless this subsidy is to support the millers and storage warehouses ... if so its working

sent from my ..................#

It is a guaranteed price scheme, the government expects there to be a margin between the purchase and the sale of the commodity, this amount is the loss the government is prepared to take in order to subsidise the industry and economic stability of the rural community....

[GentlemanJim]

sub·si·dy (sbs-d)n. pl. sub·si·dies

1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.

Yes. But this is NOT a s.u.b.s.I.d.y

Because that is not allowed under ASEAN agreements.

And also subsidies usually go directly to the farmers. Ahhhh unless this subsidy is to support the millers and storage warehouses ... if so its working

sent from my ..................#

It is a guaranteed price scheme, the government expects there to be a margin between the purchase and the sale of the commodity, this amount is the loss the government is prepared to take in order to subsidise the industry and economic stability of the rural community....

Can you explain how selling the rice at a 50 Billion loss is in the public interest? (and this is just the first sale!)

Can you explain how this subsidy can contribute to the economic stability of the rural community when none of the subsidy is really reaching the farmers in the rural community? Go read the farming forum if you're stuck. The money is not going where it is supposed to go.

[473geo]

sub·si·dy (sbs-d)n. pl. sub·si·dies

1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.

Yes. But this is NOT a s.u.b.s.I.d.y

Because that is not allowed under ASEAN agreements.

And also subsidies usually go directly to the farmers. Ahhhh unless this subsidy is to support the millers and storage warehouses ... if so its working

sent from my ..................#

It is a guaranteed price scheme, the government expects there to be a margin between the purchase and the sale of the commodity, this amount is the loss the government is prepared to take in order to subsidise the industry and economic stability of the rural community....

Can you explain how selling the rice at a 50 Billion loss is in the public interest? (and this is just the first sale!)

Can you explain how this subsidy can contribute to the economic stability of the rural community when none of the subsidy is really reaching the farmers in the rural community? Go read the farming forum if you're stuck. The money is not going where it is supposed to go.

Any body can give example of the money not going where it should, does not mean there is not an overall increase in the rice price, or that in some places people have figured out that using the banks is a good way to go........ok try this....check out the price per kg the farmers in surrounding countries are accepting where the price per kg is finding it's 'natural level'......now check out the like for like price in Thailand

Now study the 'production' cost in the surrounding countries, then check out the production cost in Thailand......

Now check out how many agricultural dependant business would struggle to survive if the rice price in Thailand was say equivalent to that in Cambodia

Yes there is corruption, but it probably varies in scale along with any individuals level of requirement to criticise the support to the rural community, if the rural community has no spending power there is a good chance the country will stagnate, worse mass migration to the cities.....

and you ask why the need?

[rubl]

now I'm not asking why there is a need for corruption, but a scheme like thev previous government had with payments directly to farmers was more benificialto farmers and less disturbance in the market mechanisms. Of course the current scheme may eventually raise the income of farmers a bit more, but by throwing away billions, pushing farmers in producing quantity rather than quality and help create a rice mountain which can only be sold at a loss.

Now the European Community did something similar (paid directly) and created huge mountains and lakes, but the amounts which were involved were affordable. Nowadays the budgets have decreased with lessons learned, open markets, WTO.

Thailand is dropping THB 400 billion in price pledging and has a Education budget of the same size. Now there you wonder if the country can afford this folly.

BTW cost of rice for the common people in Thailand has risen, you may believe me in this.

[473geo]

Try little light reading in the Wall St journal Rubl

In Defense of Bangkok's Rice Subsidies

A focus on quality, not quantity, will help Thailand best its competitors—all while aiding poor farmers.

"The strategy has stirred up considerable controversy. The opposition Democrat Party has argued that the strategy is a wasteful populist scheme that benefits a small minority of farmers. They also say that the scheme has incurred substantial losses, will become a significant fiscal burden and is plagued by massive corruption.

Such conclusions are inaccurate and premature. It's important to understand the long-term economic rationale behind the scheme.

One target here is to boost income from rice exports. Thailand has historically been the world's largest rice exporter, with approximately 30% of the global rice export market. But the market is now changing. India has succeeded in capturing significant shares of global exports by dumping its rice stockpile onto the market following the end of its export ban in September 2011. Vietnam and Pakistan have also gained market share in recent years."

Source:Wall St Journal

Of course the guy who wrote this is the Thai Minister of Commerce, still comes across as a balanced article,

Edited October 18, 2012 by 473geo

[OzMick]

Try little light reading in the Wall St journal Rubl

In Defense of Bangkok's Rice Subsidies

A focus on quality, not quantity, will help Thailand best its competitors—all while aiding poor farmers.

"The strategy has stirred up considerable controversy. The opposition Democrat Party has argued that the strategy is a wasteful populist scheme that benefits a small minority of farmers. They also say that the scheme has incurred substantial losses, will become a significant fiscal burden and is plagued by massive corruption.

Such conclusions are inaccurate and premature. It's important to understand the long-term economic rationale behind the scheme.

One target here is to boost income from rice exports. Thailand has historically been the world's largest rice exporter, with approximately 30% of the global rice export market. But the market is now changing. India has succeeded in capturing significant shares of global exports by dumping its rice stockpile onto the market following the end of its export ban in September 2011. Vietnam and Pakistan have also gained market share in recent years."

Source:Wall St Journal

Of course the guy who wrote this is the Thai Minister of Commerce, still comes across as a balanced article,

[Lite Beer]

PM firm on proceeding with rice pledging scheme

BANGKOK, Oct 18 - Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra insisted today that Thailand’s government-to-government rice deals are legitimate and that the rice pledging scheme will proceed despite a Senate move to temporarily suspend the programme.

She said the government had earlier consulted the Council of State which ruled that the deals could go ahead.

The premier added that farmers will continue to sell rice to the government under the scheme at Bt15,000 per tonne--a price which she described as fair. The Thailand Development and Research Institute earlier argued that the pledging price should not be higher than Bt13,000 per tonne.

She said the scheme will not help farmers if the pledging price is too low.

A group of 68 senators has petitioned the Constitution Court, seeking an injunction to suspend the G-to-G rice deals, which have an impact on Thai people nationwide, unless the government gets approval from parliament as stipulated in Section 190 of the constitution.

The government-sponsored rice pledging scheme and G-to-G rice deals, a consequence of excessive rice stockpiles, have been heavily criticised by former cabinet members, academics, politicians and the public.

Some blamed the government for pushing ahead with the superfluous spending at taxpayer expense which they said will eventually lead the nation to bankruptcy. Some said the pledging scheme lacks transparency and leads to widespread corruption.

The government-to-government rice agreements received no less criticism as the Commerce Ministry, in charge of the maneuvering has refused to disclose details of the deals, claiming that they are confidential. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2012-10-18

[Nickymaster]

Try little light reading in the Wall St journal Rubl

In Defense of Bangkok's Rice Subsidies

A focus on quality, not quantity, will help Thailand best its competitors—all while aiding poor farmers.

"The strategy has stirred up considerable controversy. The opposition Democrat Party has argued that the strategy is a wasteful populist scheme that benefits a small minority of farmers. They also say that the scheme has incurred substantial losses, will become a significant fiscal burden and is plagued by massive corruption.

Such conclusions are inaccurate and premature. It's important to understand the long-term economic rationale behind the scheme.

One target here is to boost income from rice exports. Thailand has historically been the world's largest rice exporter, with approximately 30% of the global rice export market. But the market is now changing. India has succeeded in capturing significant shares of global exports by dumping its rice stockpile onto the market following the end of its export ban in September 2011. Vietnam and Pakistan have also gained market share in recent years."

Source:Wall St Journal

Of course the guy who wrote this is the Thai Minister of Commerce, still comes across as a balanced article,

http://oryza.com/Rice-News/15361.html

[Nickymaster]

Why is the DSI not investigating this. Why o why??? I think I know. Do you?

Don't tell me they are too busy hunting down sex toy fabricators....

[rubl]

Try little light reading in the Wall St journal Rubl

... Wall Street Journal article quote removed ...

Of course the guy who wrote this is the Thai Minister of Commerce, still comes across as a balanced article,

Oxymoron

An oxymoron (plural oxymora or oxymorons) (from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull") is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms. Oxymora appear in a variety of contexts, including inadvertent errors such as ground pilot and literary oxymorons crafted to reveal a paradox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron

Edited October 18, 2012 by rubl

[whybother]

It is a guaranteed price scheme, the government expects there to be a margin between the purchase and the sale of the commodity, this amount is the loss the government is prepared to take in order to subsidise the industry and economic stability of the rural community....

Guaranteed price to who?

[Noistar]

Try little light reading in the Wall St journal Rubl

In Defense of Bangkok's Rice Subsidies

A focus on quality, not quantity, will help Thailand best its competitors—all while aiding poor farmers.

"The strategy has stirred up considerable controversy. The opposition Democrat Party has argued that the strategy is a wasteful populist scheme that benefits a small minority of farmers. They also say that the scheme has incurred substantial losses, will become a significant fiscal burden and is plagued by massive corruption.

Such conclusions are inaccurate and premature. It's important to understand the long-term economic rationale behind the scheme.

One target here is to boost income from rice exports. Thailand has historically been the world's largest rice exporter, with approximately 30% of the global rice export market. But the market is now changing. India has succeeded in capturing significant shares of global exports by dumping its rice stockpile onto the market following the end of its export ban in September 2011. Vietnam and Pakistan have also gained market share in recent years."

Source:Wall St Journal

Of course the guy who wrote this is the Thai Minister of Commerce, still comes across as a balanced article,

The Democratic Party's concerns may be premature, but should be heeded in a Democracy.

The 'inaccurate' will be seen in due time.

In the meantime, blinkers on, hands over ears and carry on.