Best Thai Language School

[aussiebebe]

I'm having trouble following this thread. Is there only one AUA school, as mentioned above?

AUA is a good example of a school with pseudo-scientific claims – this school states in its sales leaflet that they have never seen a student master Thai who has not learned via the natural method.

Is this the same AUA company which has a branch in Seri Center, or is it a separate Thai language school? I was trying to work out whether AUA was a university, but someone in the 'Teaching In Thailand' forum said it was a langauge center - AUA's website says they teach English - do they also teach Thai?

Appreciate any info.

Also, there was a member called 'Soloman' who seemed interested in learning Thai. I have advice for him and anyone else which is that location is a key factor in deciding where to study. When I was looking around, UTL was one of the closest to where I live. If someone told me that Bangkok's best school was 30km away from my house - what difference would it make? I'd spend more on transport than on learning Thai - you just need the access to a real teacher (there is a difference!)

Edited August 7, 2009 by aussiebebe

[LantaSchool]

@LantaSchool

Thanks for this nice summary, and I don't wish to unduly criticise what seems a well-intentioned post; however, there are a couple of myths here about the psychology of language acquisition and about the Thai language I should like to point out for those just starting out and choosing a language school.

Point 5 about Thai being a 'high-context' language seems right enough, but it's not quite accurate to say Thais cannot use 'tone' the way other languages do. Thai is 'tonal', but the word 'tone' has a very specific, and quite limited application in reference to Thai. Like English, Thai speakers can and do use intonation, as well as vary stress, pitch, volume and tempo (all of which may generally, if inaccurately, be connoted by the word English word 'tone' in the wider sense) to reflect emotions. The sound of an angry voice, to take a blunt example, can be similarly recognised in both Thai and English by a speakers' intonation, stress, volume and so on even if one has no knowledge or understanding of the vocabulary. The idea that because Thai is a 'tonal' language, emotions can only be understood in context is, at best, a bit of an over-simplification. Switch on channel 3, close your eyes, and even a beginner will be able to tell the differene between two lovers smooching and two 'ladies' cat fighting!

Points 1 and 2 are more of a worry in terms of misleading new language learners. I agree physical activities can make language learning fun and interesting and can help to cognitively cement new vocabulary. However, that is not to say that this is i. the only way or ii. the best way to learn a language. People respond positively to different kinds of teaching methods. Personally, I would not enjoy going to a class where a teacher tried to make me engage in "child-like" learning games. To imply that people who share my aversion to this kind of 'role play' are reducing their chances of successfully acquiring a new language is, at best, misleading.

It is also manifestly false that learning from a vocab list will condemn you to translation as stated in point 2. I'd hazard a guess that most of those reading this post who have picked up Thai as a second language learned ห้วเราะ in just that way and can use it, and much other vocab, quite reflexively. Whether someone translates before parsing meaning has nothing to do with how they learned words but with the frequency in which they meet and use those expresssions.

Finally, if you're choosing a school for the first time, please beware the BS about 'natural learning'. Despite what a lot of 'quick-fix' language schools say to generate business (i'm not suggesting this about Lanta, i don't know anything about them, my point is general), there is NO valid research that shows adults can learn a language like a child.

Our cognitive abilities are utterly unalike, not least because children learn a language while discovering the world, developing social interaction skills and expanding their cognitive and conceptual abilities. Language plays an essential role in their psychological development. They are hard-wiring their brains through language as they physically and psychologically mature. For adults, this process has already taken place, which means adult language learns have always to deal with interference from their native language and the habitual hard-wiring of their brain. This point is so widely accepted in academic circles, its barely credible that so many schools get away with perpetuating the "learn naturally like a child" myth. Of course, it sells seats, but I would strongly advise anyone looking for a good school to avoid this kind of charlatanism (indeed, it would be interesting to hear from any of the more advanced non-native speakers of Thai who populate this site whether ANY of them had learned 'naturally like a child' - i'm betting my rather inedible hat that the number is absolute zero!)

All that said, once again, I do think you made a nice summary of some points worth sharing.

Hello Softwater

Thank you for your eloquent reply, and I'm glad you liked our summary.

I'm not allowed to place a link, there is a website which can provide details on some of the research and evidence accumulated to support the concept that learning through experience and action is far more effective when learning a language. If you google TPR World Review Evidence I think it comes out top. Please note this site has nothing to do with our school...

I would also like to highlight that we have chosen to adopt these methods, as we were unsatisfied with the results traditional methods were providing. We closed our school for 6 months to research educational science, and find out how we could help people to learn Thai more easily. We developed our courses based on our findings, and we tested, tested and tested before introducing them to paying students. As a result, we have witnessed a dramatic increase in the success rate of students. Over the last 6 months 100% of our students have passed their final exams, all of which are based on the same structure as the Cambridge ESOL, a highly regarded qualification.

In summarisation:

Students will benefit if they

1. Learn by activity and doing, using both brain hemispheres to learn.

2. Learn by a lot of interaction with the teacher, and learn how to put together their own sentences by listening and understanding interaction, not by repeating dialogues.

3. Use translation to avoid confusion, when understanding from context is too hard or time consuming

4. Learn how to read Thai early but start with words and sentences that they already understand

We truly believe that these methods are the most effective, that's why we have chosen to use them. These methods open the door to more people – making it easier for everyone to learn Thai – not just those who have an aptitude for learning a second language. That's not to say that people can't learn Thai in other ways though J

It all comes down to personal preference and choice.

[SoftWater]

Hello Softwater

Thank you for your eloquent reply, and I'm glad you liked our summary.

I'm not allowed to place a link, there is a website which can provide details on some of the research and evidence accumulated to support the concept that learning through experience and action is far more effective when learning a language. If you google TPR World Review Evidence I think it comes out top. Please note this site has nothing to do with our school...

I would also like to highlight that we have chosen to adopt these methods, as we were unsatisfied with the results traditional methods were providing. We closed our school for 6 months to research educational science, and find out how we could help people to learn Thai more easily. We developed our courses based on our findings, and we tested, tested and tested before introducing them to paying students. As a result, we have witnessed a dramatic increase in the success rate of students. Over the last 6 months 100% of our students have passed their final exams, all of which are based on the same structure as the Cambridge ESOL, a highly regarded qualification.

I want to make it clear I don't have an axe to grind with Lanta school. As an education professional, I do have an axe to grind with bogus theories and bogus research.

The first thing - and in fact only thing, because this point alone makes it invalid, but I will make a few other points too - that has to be said about the reference Lanta provide is that it is not independent research. If other TV readers care to look up the link, they will see that the research being cited is called 'The Total Physical Response (TPR): Review of the Evidence' by James Asher, 2009.

Now that looks like a fine title for something that should be academically credible material, until you notice that ALL the evidence being reviewed, and almost the entire bibliography cited in support, is actually written by the author, James Asher himself. That, I'm sorry, is NOT what we call valid research. Someone reviewing their own research is NOT a review of the evidence - it is a SUMMARY of his own work (reputable academics don't call summaries of their own work a 'review of the evidence' - this is wholly misleading).

Add on to this the fact that James Asher is selling a whole load of products based on his TPR method (and possibly franchising it to schools), and you can start to see why anybody with a bit of critical thinking skill might be a bit suspect.

Now I don't know if Lanta school is connected to James Asher or has just bought it into the hype, but the point is this: the only people claiming the TPR method works are James Asher (who sells the method) and schools like Lanta (who sell the method). Independent research needs to be from someone who has no vested interest.

There are also grave doubts about the validity of the research that Asher conducted to my mind. I won't bore the forum with them because I think regardless of any other points what I've already said is a knockdown argument. However, I'd be happy to privately send anyone a detailed critique of Asher's article by PM if they want it. If you read Asher's article and find yourself, apparently like Lanta, feeling persuaded - send me a PM and I'll tell you exactly why its BS.

By the way, I am an academic in a public educational institution and am not in competition with any private language school - nor do I sell a method of language learning - just in case anyone might wonder about my own 'vested interests' (i.e, i have none).

Edited August 13, 2009 by SoftWater

[LantaSchool]

I want to make it clear I don't have an axe to grind with Lanta school. As an education professional, I do have an axe to grind with bogus theories and bogus research.

It's good to debate these topics - no offence taken.

Now I don't know if Lanta school is connected to James Asher or has just bought it into the hype, but the point is this: the only people claiming the TPR method works are James Asher (who sells the method) and schools like Lanta (who sell the method). Independent research needs to be from someone who has no vested interest.

We are not connected to James Asher. We studied a whole range of techniques and our final methods are not SOLELY based on TPR. We understand your point about independent research, which is one of the reasons we tested our techniques before launching. We continuously assess our students performance, and monitor the effectiveness of our courses. Even though we are experiencing such a good success rate, we still review which areas of our courses are working most effectively, so we have a sound grasp of what actually works for our students.

Prospective students need to review the techniques available, and consider what will work for them. We don't ask anyone to take our word for it - we just want to highlight the techniques that are available, and communicate why we think they are so effective.

There are also grave doubts about the validity of the research that Asher conducted to my mind. I won't bore the forum with them because I think regardless of any other points what I've already said is a knockdown argument. However, I'd be happy to privately send anyone a detailed critique of Asher's article by PM if they want it. If you read Asher's article and find yourself, apparently like Lanta, feeling persuaded - send me a PM and I'l tell you exactly why its BS.

By the way, I am an academic in a public educational institution and am not in competition with any language school - nor do I sell a method of language learning - just in case anyone might wonder about my own 'vested interests' (i.e, i have none).

I would like to read a PM detailing your critique Softwater. It's always good to read another's perspective - especially a fellow educational professional. Two of the staff at Lanta School have a bachelors degree in education, and the course coordinator has a masters in educational design and multi media, so the decision to select these methods was not based on simply reading and buying into some hype. We have the best interests of students of the Thai language at heart. Our interest is in promoting methods we believe to be effective - which I guess is exactly where you are coming from too.. Do you believe that traditional methods are more effective? What methods of teaching do you support?

[SoftWater]

I would like to read a PM detailing your critique Softwater. It's always good to read another's perspective - especially a fellow educational professional. Two of the staff at Lanta School have a bachelors degree in education, and the course coordinator has a masters in educational design and multi media, so the decision to select these methods was not based on simply reading and buying into some hype. We have the best interests of students of the Thai language at heart. Our interest is in promoting methods we believe to be effective - which I guess is exactly where you are coming from too.. Do you believe that traditional methods are more effective? What methods of teaching do you support?

If we may take you at your word, then I commend your professionalism. Alas, to the extent that you buy into TPR (which is significantly going by the things that you have said on this forum and the things James Asher says in his article), then I have to say you need to look a bit more critically at what you read. Did any of you B.Ed and MA graduated staff find any INDEPENDENT research to suggest that Asher's method was valid?

Regarding the critique, as I've already said in one answer to a PM request, you'll need to give me a few days to write up a considered point-by-point reply. I will post it in a separate thread when its done and put a link here.

Your final question also deserves an answer, which I have given in several places previously on this forum, one of which can be found here Reading/Writing: which one first

[dippytart]

We understand your point about independent research, which is one of the reasons we tested our techniques before launching. We continuously assess our students performance, and monitor the effectiveness of our courses. Even though we are experiencing such a good success rate, we still review which areas of our courses are working most effectively, so we have a sound grasp of what actually works for our students.

That's a sales pitch equivalent to "'we tested our baby powder and can assure you its safe". Sorry, it doesn't amount to independent research.

[dseawarrior]

Last year, I taught 6 classes at Chula in my field using THAI as the language of instruction (believe me, it was too slow to use English ~ much easier to use Thai to increase class discussion...)

What field is that?

I was under the impression that the only foreign instructors at Chula were those teaching English or those teaching subject fields in international programs (in which case they are supposed to teach in English not Thai)?

Your "impression" is wrong on this particular issue with this particular person. Any department/ school at Chula (or any other university for that matter) can hire foreigners in whatever subject -- as long as that person is qualified. I am very well-qualified as a highly experienced school and educational psychologist. I earned my masters and Ph.D. at U.C. Berkeley -- quite a few years ago. I have become fluent in Thai much faster than most folks because I understand the linguistic and developmental underpinnings of language acquisition to a high degree. Language acquisition and fluency varies greatly by person due to individual differences, abilities and experience -- among many other factors that have been partially touched upon in this forum...

I successfully taught six courses – in Thai and supplementing with English if needed: A) Psychological Tests for Early Identification of Exceptional Children; Educational Psychology and Learner Development; C) Introduction to Psycho-Educational Assessment: Measurement and Test Construction; D) Psychology of Teaching Exceptional Children; E) Theories and Techniques of Counseling for Guidance; and, F) Introduction to Children with Emotional and Social Disorders. I also co-taught a graduate seminar on personality assessment for PhD students in education. I was also involved in a number of committees and helped to co-found a new center where the language was Thai was the primary language for discussion...

For the interviewing process for this position, I gave my job talk in Thai.

I am not "a typical farang" teaching English in Thailand at this stage. I have been there, done that and moved on to the next level...

Feel free to PM me if you need more details. I am happy to explain you my duties and give a summary of the subjects in Thai if you like.

As you may ascertain, I am not a "wannabe" Thai speaker. I am a Thai speaker.

Enjoy & kaw hai chok dee duay na krab,

[SoftWater]

Last year, I taught 6 classes at Chula in my field using THAI as the language of instruction (believe me, it was too slow to use English ~ much easier to use Thai to increase class discussion...)

What field is that?

I was under the impression that the only foreign instructors at Chula were those teaching English or those teaching subject fields in international programs (in which case they are supposed to teach in English not Thai)?

Your "impression" is wrong on this particular issue with this particular person. Any department/ school at Chula (or any other university for that matter) can hire foreigners in whatever subject -- as long as that person is qualified. I am very well-qualified as a highly experienced school and educational psychologist.

Thanks for the clarification, dseawarrior. No slur intended on you. My comment was made from a mixture of surprise and personal interest. Allow me to explain (note to Mod: please be tolerant, I will be bringing us back on topic by the end of the post!!)

Your comment that Chula etc can hire foreigners in any subject is not quite accurate. Thai law and the Ministry of Education proscribes employment of foreigner for any job that could equally well be done by a Thai. Thais can of course teach English (and do), but since foreigners are native speakers they cannot teach it 'equally well' (in the eyes of the law, not perhaps, in practice!). Hence, foreigners teaching English is allowable under the law.

From what you have said, it must be that you are a specialist in your subject and that no Thai could, in the eyes of law, teach the specialist courses you taught to the same level/degree of expertise. My personal interest is that I am probably one of those 'typical farangs teaching english' that you refer to; however, my subject specialism is not English but Philosophy. I would love to teach philosophy here but there are few international courses in philosophy taught in English, and there are plenty of Thais who are equally if not better qualified on paper than I am to teach it in Thai. Moreover, although I am conversationally capable (i wouldn't say 'conversationally fluent') in Thai, I can't imagine ever having the ability to teach philosophy in Thai. The concepts are difficult enough to explain in English ( I used to teach philosophy in a UK university), let alone in Thai. It is truly remarkable - and hats off to you - that you have mastered the language to such an extent that you can explain and instruct a highly specialised field using Thai (and apparently without writing Thai, since I note from your posts that you tend to write in transliteration). That's a level of vocabulary and sophistication way beyond anyone I've ever come across (in another thread people are marvelling at Steven Jay Raj' language abilities, but I'd say yours are even more amazing). Well done you.

So, to bring us back on topic: I note in other posts that you endorse similar learning methods to the ones hat I have been pointing out: immersion, variety and repetition. TOTALLY agree!!! Could I ask whether you ever studied at AUA or a school that use the TPR method advocated by Lanta? I ask because these schools tend to imply that your level of mastery is impossible unless you learn like a child. I am, as you will be aware from my other posts, highly sceptical of their claims, and feel beginners reading this thread looking for a good school should have some balanced opinions / views from people like yourself who have mastered Thai as a second language.

Best

Sw

Edited August 14, 2009 by SoftWater

[dippytart]

I have become fluent in Thai much faster than most folks because I understand the linguistic and developmental underpinnings of language acquisition to a high degree.

Wow!!

Care to share?

That would be far more germane to this discussion than Sofwaters obsession (sorry, honey!) with Lanta et al.

[SoftWater]

That would be far more germane to this discussion than Sofwaters obsession (sorry, honey!) with Lanta et al.

Your point is well-taken, Dippy, and I think I'd like to draw a line under the softwater v lanta debate.

Only Lanta and one other person, primarily interested in academic research, have asked me for a full critique of Asher. TV is not really the place for this kind of thing, so I'll simply reiterate my original offer that anyone who is interested should contact me via PM, and we can take the debate elsewhere.

In summary, I'll repeat that there is no independent scientific support for the TPR method. People interested in Lanta can google their name as I did and find their website. They have videos and prices on the site which will give you a good idea of what you're in store for if you choose this kind of language school.

[LantaSchool]

Hi All

Just to clarify – whether you choose our school, a different one, or chose to study on-line – consider the benefits of learning in an interactive and experiential way. Our contribution on this thread was intended to provide readers with an awareness of different techniques and methods that are available, and thereby help readers who are looking for ways to learn the Thai language.

A quick word on TPR as I believe it is relevant to this thread - I move more directly back to topic further down...

TPR was established some 40 years ago, and there have been numerous debates among academics as to its effectiveness. Over the years it has fought off the critiques and maintained a steady following of supporters. We have references to independent write ups that support the method, such as this one at www.englishraven.com/method_TPR.html (not sure if that link will show).

"TPR is now a household name among teachers of foreign languages. It is widely acclaimed as a highly effective method at beginning levels, and almost a standard requirement in the instruction of young learners. It is also admired as a method due to its inherent simplicity, making it accessible to a wide range of teachers and learning environments."

Whilst we know this isn’t “independent research” as such, we would like readers to be aware that we have adopted it because we believe it to be effective for our students, and so far it has proven to be so. We have no interest in adopting a method that doesn’t work – why would we? But we’ll continue the TPR debate on another thread

If you’re trying to learn Thai – In many ways, we, as in Softwater and Lantaschool, are saying the same thing: "Speak, read, write, listen. Do all of these as much and as often as you can."

Unfortunately, however, many people do not have enough intrinsic motivation, or the attention span, to dedicate enough time and energy to learn a foreign language. Hence, many students drop out of language courses early, and do not reach the fluency they aspire to. Try to find out what the dropout rate is of any course you plan to enrol on.

If you enjoy learning in an academic way, using vocabulary lists and repeating dialogues, and you find it works for you, then the different methods we have been discussing on this thread are unlikely to be of benefit to you.

If however you feel uninspired, or put off from studying the Thai language because you find the idea of traditional, academic methods of learning too challenging or even boring, then – we encourage you to consider the benefits of other techniques. Using a combination of methods that will make you experience different ways of learning throughout the day, could engage your attention and motivation for much longer. Thus, you will be able to Speak, read, write, and listen more often and for longer - without getting bored or losing interest. You may even have fun as well...

Anyone interested in the methods we use are welcome to visit our school to see whether they feel they could benefit from different methods of learning or not. We also have a few YouTube videos that show the methods in action. At the end of the day, the methods you choose will be down to your own personal preference of what you feel will work best for you. We simply want to make you aware of some of the techniques available, and the results we have seen when they are applied.

Good luck

p.s Softwater - I’m sorry if you felt I was saying that adopting these methods was the ONLY way to learn Thai – I don’t think I made that claim anywhere? I’m sure there are other ways... It certainly isn’t my intention to “dismiss” other methods.

[SoftWater]

TPR was established some 40 years ago, and there have been numerous debates among academics as to its effectiveness. Over the years it has fought off the critiques and maintained a steady following of supporters. We have references to independent write ups that support the method, such as this one...

but then you state

Whilst we know this isn't "independent research" as such,

You seem to be confused about whether you want us to believe it's independent or not...in fact it's not research at all and does not support TPR with any data or empirical evidence. It is one teacher's personal overview of the history of 2nd language teaching Interestingly, the same author notes elsewhere on his site that during the 1980s, well after Asher's TPR method had surfaced, language teaching had moved on from these debates about specific methodologies having all the answers, and moved to a more inclusive communicative methodology. To say that TPR was established 40 years ago is true but misleading - in the philosophy of mind, the behaviorism of Skinner and Watson was "established" over a hundred years ago, and roundly dismissed barely 20 years later.

In other words, like 'the silent way', a highly-discredited technique, 'TPR' was left behind as a historical experiment by most mainstream schools.

I'd also note that while the author of this site endorses TPR for children and beginners, he specifically notes it is tied to learning language that is connected to direct sensory experience, and it is little use for more conceptual and abstract elements of language. If you want to learn how to say 'jump' and 'smile' fine, you can learn a physical response similar to the way animals are taught to respond to behavioural commands. Most of us want to be able to do a little more than this though....

p.s Softwater - I'm sorry if you felt I was saying that adopting these methods was the ONLY way to learn Thai – I don't think I made that claim anywhere? I'm sure there are other ways... It certainly isn't my intention to "dismiss" other methods.

If you read your own posts, you'll find that you said people who learn from vocab lists are condemned to always translating...i'd say that counts as 'dismissing other methods'...

I would have thought the 'plug' I gave suggesting people check out your website for themselves would have been enough, but you seem determined to keep promoting your school under a thinly disguised attempt at offering us free advice. I think the forum has got it - both your view and mine. Shall we leave it here?

Edited August 17, 2009 by SoftWater

[dippytart]

p.s Softwater - I'm sorry if you felt I was saying that adopting these methods was the ONLY way to learn Thai – I don't think I made that claim anywhere? I'm sure there are other ways... It certainly isn't my intention to "dismiss" other methods.

If you read your own posts, you'll find that you said people who learn from vocab lists are condemned to always translating...i'd say that counts as 'dismissing other methods'...

I would have thought the 'plug' I gave suggesting people check out your website for themselves would have been enough, but you seem determined to keep promoting your school under a thinly disguised attempt at offering us free advice. I think the forum has got it - both your view and mine. Shall we leave it here?

Could it be that the p.s remark was a bait? I rather admire Mr or Mrs Lanta, quite a skilled marketing pro...

[bushke]

I am thinking about learning Thai and would like also an Educational Visa.

I live in Bangkok but not in the center. I live in RAMA 2 area. Does anyone know if this area has any Thai schools that are licensed by the ministry of education?

All help would be appreciated.

[pig0309]

Hello!!! my name is Wiyada Pimpaporn . I am a Thai teacher specializing in teaching Thai to foreigners living in Thailand. If you would like to learn to speak , read and write Thai in a fast and easy way, please contact me to setup schedule that is convenient for you.

Thank you

Wiyada

Teaching Thai to foreigners

can u send me ur information to my email: [email protected]

i want to know the price....

[pig0309]

I have some experience with this periodically over the last five years on extended stays having attended for a while at the Somchat, Jentana's and Smile languages school - in terms of materials and teaching standards there is little difference. In fact the two ladies behind Jentana and Smile schools both taught at Nisa school ( I think if that is the one at Sathorn) before setting up on their own.

The teachers are lowly paid and have to work long hours so staff turnover is high and their hearts are not always in it. As a beginner as well it is frustrating to get a new teacher with poor English who will just smile when you ask valid questions - If I was to recommend one of these schools it would be Jentana's purely for Jentana herself - she is a well-organised lady and a very good laugh as well.

I had previously attended group classes at London university and did go and look at Unity and AUA - I am sorry but I didn't feel I could possibly learn in a group situation again with the continuous mis-pronunciations ( when it got round to me I was probably the worse culprit) so attended the schools offering one-one tuition. What I have found is needed is a real teacher who will correct you everytime you make a mistake not a shy young lady who sits smiling as you utter gobbledygook.

Now that I live in Thailand I have decided it is an absolute must to finally learn the language. I considered going back to one of the schools but recall how hit and miss it was with teachers. I was pleased to find that one of the teachers I had previously encountered was still teaching but on a freelance basis - i learn about 4 times a week at home and in a short time have made considerable progress. I would have no hesitation to recommend this lady as she has been teaching for over 10 years and has helped many nationalities to fluency - for the first time i feel i will be able to achieve that. Anyway I know one is not supposed to advertise but I would happily pass on contact details to anyone seriously wishing to learn.

Cheers BB

can u send me the information of the freelance teacher?my email: [removed -- use PM]

[dseawarrior]

I have become fluent in Thai much faster than most folks because I understand the linguistic and developmental underpinnings of language acquisition to a high degree.

Wow!!

Care to share?

That would be far more germane to this discussion than Sofwaters obsession (sorry, honey!) with Lanta et al.

55555... I tend to agree... It is easy to lecture endlessly on this topic, but I will try to keep my experiences, comments and tips short and succinct.

First, sorry to be slow in my response to this topic -- I subscribed to updates via email to this topic but that function apparently is not working at present... I am responding to your post 9 days after you posted...

IMMERSION... IMMERSION... IMMERSION...

Second, as SW guessed, I am a specialist in my field where there are no Thai personnel equivalents to my skills, education and experience... So Chula U. got a very "very good deal" in hiring me. I also got a "good deal" in that I was further immersed in Thai language and culture to a very high level -- a very unusual experience for a Farang -- I am the only Farang that I know of who has had a similar experience... If you can arrange a similar experience for yourself, I highly recommend it ~ but at the same time such a position is not easy to secure or to maintain... There are vast differences between expectations of Thai and Western university level academic positions... One of the things that I liked about Thai "academia" was the high level of social interaction ~ at the same time, this high level of social interaction can also be very "stifling" if one likes to have their own space and follow their own "drummer." There is a huge expectation for social reciprocity (including excessive work hours including socializing with work peers beyond normal hours even including vacation time, etc.). Frankly, I like to have my vacation time and personal time to myself as much as possible ~ but Thai academic peers have an expectation that "we are all family" so why not want to be together all the time??? To be honest, I don't enjoy being with my own family of origin all the time (one of the reasons that Farang folks individuate more than Thai folks from their families of origin). Personal space is very important to me (especially vacation time) and this concept is yet to truly emerge in Thai society... This interaction is a double-edged sword ~ now that I am out of that intensive Thai academic environment, I do miss it ~ to a certain extent....

Third, back to the question by "dippytart." "I understand the linguistic and developmental underpinnings of language acquisition to a high degree." Care to share? ...Big question and big topic for sure...

A) Much depends on your own understanding of your own skills in "learning how to learn" for yourself... That is, are you aware of your own learning "style"? Do you know how you learn fastest/ easiest in most subjects? Are you a visual or auditory or kinesthetic learner, or what kind or combination thereof? What is your own level of fluency in your mother tongue? Have you studied other languages and how has your success been for those other languages? What emotional connections have you made in your language studies? All of these factors interact within an individual level -- so individualized language learning programs will TRY to consider these different factors -- but as an adult, it is up to you to monitor and guide your own learning... You KNOW when you "get it" and you should also know when "you don't get it." If you are not sure, that is a tip that you need to review that same material again -- maybe in a different way... Seek out help frequently, but remember you are your own master as you move towards language mastery... No one "program" is going to do it for you... In answer to SW, I have NOT been in the AUA program NOR any other formal Thai language learning program in Thailand. I am sure that they all offer good techniques, activities and exercises, but I have created my own environments for learning and that has worked best for me... Yes, quite natural for me...

The answers you provide for yourself to part A) will help to guide you in your language studies... For myself, I have had high success in English (my mother tongue), and I have also studied, Spanish, Latin, German and Swedish to and beyond the university level. I am a polyglot and I have applied my successes in my other languages to my studies of Thai... I KNOW that I am an auditory and musical learner, who enjoys learning practically and passionately. Like learning how to play guitar or sing Jazz -- I enjoy learning how to express myself but also how to listen and repeat what I hear others (e.g., language speakers or musicians) are "saying." I have a very good "ear" -- that my be genetic -- but that is also a skill that I have practiced and developed...

C) When I advise Thai speakers on how to improve their English listening and repeating skills, I say: "Faang leh puut muen nok" = "Listen and speak like a bird." (do not "think too much" but repeat like a "bird"...) This is very important from my perspective... It is very important to listen carefully and repeat identically... In the beginning, it is very hard to accurately repeat the Thai phonemes (sounds) the same as a Thai speaker... You need a good teacher who has lots of patience and you must have lots of patience, too! And, repeated listening and repeating speaking along with Thai language tapes / CDs/ TV/ radio/ music is ESSENTIAL... There are no "shortcuts" -- this takes THOUSANDS of HOURS of listening and repeating... It is not particularly hard, but discipline, diligence and accuracy are needed... A few years ago, I spent many hundreds of hours listening and repeating the tape series for "Thai for Lovers" and "Thai for Beginners/ Intermediate Learners/ Advance Learners" (see Benjawan Poomsan Becker (now Terlecky) et al). It is a good audio tape series for the Thai portion... I listened to those tapes for more than a year while I commuted to and from work... I viewed it almost as a musical exercise in repeating for precision, tone, accuracy for the whole phrase and for individual consonants and vowels...

D) By the way, years ago I took two graduate courses in Linguistics and this gave me the tools via an IPA phonetic alphabet to break down Thai sounds so that they could be "parsed" and intelligible for me -- I have a rather accurate IPA writing system that I use for myself when I write down a new Thai word that I have not heard before... All of these studies I basically did on my own without direct supervision of a Thai teacher... If I was not sure of my accuracy, I would repeat the tape over and over until I mastered that tape... Then I felt I could move on to the "next level."

[The process that I describe above is basically what toddlers & preschoolers of all languages do "naturally" while they begin to master the sound system of their native language and learn the "accent" of their native language... Listen and repeat like a bird -- there is no replacement for that -- until you are confident of your mastery in that language -- you will know when you are reaching mastery because people will understand what you are saying... It is also OK if you speak "wrong" as long as you are open to being taught by your friends and acquaintances in Thai (or whatever new language you are practicing).] And as long as you encourage Thai speakers to correct you whenever needed... Do NOT worry about making mistakes -- that IS how we truly learn!!!

AND MORE IMMERSION:

The first year that I lived and worked in Thailand (8/2004 - 8/2005), I intentionally placed myself in an immersed language setting. I moved into a 100% Thai neighborhood (I avoided Farang friends during this time -- to avoid relying on English for communication...) Yes, give up on your Farang friends for a while if you can... ;-). I shopped at the local Thai market and local Thai businesses. I made many Thai friends. I ASKED QUESTIONS ALL THE TIME: "What is this? What is that? etc." I only listened to Thai TV and radio... I turned on Thai TV first thing in the morning and listened to the news, etc., and then went to work... When I returned home in the evening, I turned on the TV and listened to that until I fell asleep a few hours later... With this approach, I amassed about 4-5 hours a day of listening to Thai mass media X 365 = ~ 1,865 hours per year of semi-active listening for the gist of the story... At first this was very frustrating but I was patient with the fact I could not expect myself to understand every word -- but my progress was cumulative with time... During lunch, I sought out my Thai coworkers and listened to their stories and talked and ate with them...

At the same time during that year, I had two Thai girlfriends in succession... The first GF spoke some English, but soon we switched over to nearly 100% Thai ~ this frustrated her because she wanted to improve her English ~ but I more or less insisted that we speak Thai... (Yes, I am quite stubborn when I have a goal...) And, of course, I carried a dictionary with me at all times!!! REALLY!!! This is also essential as you begin to internalize your new language skills... That relationship ended after about 5 months... And then, I met another nice Thai lady who spoke NO ENGLISH at ALL! With the basic Thai I had learned already, my new GF and I spoke ONLY Thai together... This method allowed me to gain even more time practicing Thai every day ~ 4 hours per day talking with GF X 365 = 1460 hours per year...

As you can see, the thousands of hours really start to add up 1865 + 1460 = ~ 3,325 hours of Thai practice in that year alone... To add "excitement" (passion) to my language learning process, I also bought and drove an old car -- which required frequent repairs by local mechanics... This gave me deep experience in the "auto world" in Thailand for repairs but also for making trips and negotiating with locals for directions and also dealing with Thai police -- all of which was also invaluable for improving my Thai fluency...

For that year, it turned out that my second Thai GF was a "hilltribe" Thai who did not have proper Thai ID (mai mee baht bra-cha-chon Thai) and I hoped that we could fix this problem by working with the local bureaucrats at her amphur... (LONG story on that...) That experience (which elapsed over about 2 years) taught me greatly about Thai bureaucracy, Thai government, Thai lawyers and Thai "rigidness" about who are "true Thais" and not "true Thais." Sadly, I had to abandon that relationship because with inadequate Thai identification papers, that lady would never be able to travel outside of Thailand... Yes, there many hundreds of thousands of Thai people who do not have adequate documentation -- so they are not "true Thais" in the eyes of the Thai government... That is a truly sad story for many "Thai people" in Thailand... See that in other posts... Thai citizenry, Tabien baan, etc...

In Spring 2006, I met some new Thai friends who worked with Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. At that point, I was ready to learn a more "professional" level of Thai language skills... For almost 3 years, I dated a Chula U. ajarn who helped me to become even more proficient in my Thai language skills, politeness and cultural awareness... Much of this learning came out of the natural friendship and fun that comes with new friends and a new girlfriend... As this relationship and process unfolded, my Thai became more fluent all the time...

From end of 2007 to the end of 2008, I worked as an active lecturer in my field at Chula U... As I began teaching my courses, I quickly found out that my students preferred my teaching in Thai over my teaching in English (hey, most young Thais study English in school but English is not a language that they use every day to converse and study...), so it was MUCH easier to teach and hold discussions in Thai as the language of instruction (Yes, I did give my Chula nisit / students readings in English but the discussion was always in Thai).

As you might guess, my Thai improved greatly during my year of teaching at Chula... EVERY Thai person speaks with their own accent and many young Thai university students speak in very quiet (low volume) respectful Thai that varies in accent based on where they grew up and their experience with middle Thai (Bangkok Thai AKA "passa glaang")... Listening and talking with hundreds of different Thais speakers on a WIDE VARIETY of TOPICS greatly improved my daily language skills...

During the same time, I was involved with several research committees and in developing a new international center for Chula U. These discussions with my Chula U. colleagues were ALWAYS in Thai... I also advised a number of students about their masters' levels theses -- again, in Thai... Of course, I also maintained my friendships with my GF and other Thai friends at the same time... All of these activities reinforced and extended my Thai language and cultural skills...

You can start to imagine how intense this level of IMMERSION has really been for me if you think about it... Just for the 2007 to 2008 year, I probably accrued 16 X 365 = ~ 5,840 hours of Thai practice and study just for that year... Of course, the level of intensity varies from activity to activity... But I highly recommend teaching the subject matter of your field in Thai ~ not many better ways to improve your own Thai ~ chai mai krab??? Oh, by the way, I almost forgot that I _often_ fell asleep in my room with my TV on ~ yet again adding hundreds more hours of passive study of Thai language...

So, in summary, if I include all extraneous studies and conversations, etc., I have probably accrued about 15,000 HOURS of Thai study and conversation to date since I first visited Thailand in 2002... Most Farang have not yet accrued 10% of that same amount of study time using true immersion methods... I am not criticizing most Farang, the reality is that most Farang do not have the time or the interest to study Thai so deeply... A SMALL percentage of Farang DO invest this LARGE amount of time and those Farang DO reap the benefits and rewards of learning Thai language, Thai culture and Thai people at a very deep level...

Please feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. This may be my last post on this particular string because it seems that other folks have already exhaustively discussed other methods...

As you can see, gaining fluency with Thai language, Thai people and Thailand is very much an individual journey... Thanks for reading and listening...

And, keep in mind that you will be creating your OWN version of Thai language for YOURSELF... Like playing a musical instrument with fluency and dexterity, you will learn to improvise best by playing with other people... It is very much like JAZZ!!!

Good luck to everyone for all of your Thai studies... AND YES, I AM _STILL_ LEARNING! ;-)

Chok dee na krab!

[SoftWater]

Whoa! That's a serious investment of time (both in reading the post and the learning strategy advocated), but worth it in the end (in both cases), if, as Dseawarrior says in point A, you are that kind of student.

As an ordinary mortal, the main tip I would take out of it is the point about parroting. I often advise my students to do just this, with movies, tapes, music whatever they are interested in. I am less than good at taking my own advice, alas...but appreciate the point he is making - the more time you can commit to this boring, repetitive type of task the greater the results will be. It's precisely this 'hard work' ethic that a lot of language schools are afraid to be honest about with students who come to them looking for proficiency.

It's worth comparing what dseawarrior says with an old thread also popping up today about the intensive Thai course at Chula. Read what the OP did (see here) and what he got out of it (also, bear in mind he had not studied Thai elsewhere) - yes, there are different learning styles, but at the end of the day, proficiency and fluency are mountains that can only be climbed with serious effort, and I just wish the schools that promote 'unique' methods would be a bit more up front about this. Games, and jumping up and down etc will only take you so (and not very) far...

Edited August 24, 2009 by SoftWater

[dippytart]

I have become fluent in Thai much faster than most folks because I understand the linguistic and developmental underpinnings of language acquisition to a high degree.

Wow!!

Care to share?

That would be far more germane to this discussion than Sofwaters obsession (sorry, honey!) with Lanta et al.

55555... I tend to agree... It is easy to lecture endlessly on this topic, but I will try to keep my experiences, comments and tips short and succinct.

First, sorry to be slow in my response to this topic -- I subscribed to updates via email to this topic but that function apparently is not working at present... I am responding to your post 9 days after you posted...

IMMERSION... IMMERSION... IMMERSION...

Second, as SW guessed, I am a specialist in my field where there are no Thai personnel equivalents to my skills, education and experience... So Chula U. got a very "very good deal" in hiring me. I also got a "good deal" in that I was further immersed in Thai language and culture to a very high level -- a very unusual experience for a Farang -- I am the only Farang that I know of who has had a similar experience... If you can arrange a similar experience for yourself, I highly recommend it ~ but at the same time such a position is not easy to secure or to maintain... There are vast differences between expectations of Thai and Western university level academic positions... One of the things that I liked about Thai "academia" was the high level of social interaction ~ at the same time, this high level of social interaction can also be very "stifling" if one likes to have their own space and follow their own "drummer." There is a huge expectation for social reciprocity (including excessive work hours including socializing with work peers beyond normal hours even including vacation time, etc.). Frankly, I like to have my vacation time and personal time to myself as much as possible ~ but Thai academic peers have an expectation that "we are all family" so why not want to be together all the time??? To be honest, I don't enjoy being with my own family of origin all the time (one of the reasons that Farang folks individuate more than Thai folks from their families of origin). Personal space is very important to me (especially vacation time) and this concept is yet to truly emerge in Thai society... This interaction is a double-edged sword ~ now that I am out of that intensive Thai academic environment, I do miss it ~ to a certain extent....

Third, back to the question by "dippytart." "I understand the linguistic and developmental underpinnings of language acquisition to a high degree." Care to share? ...Big question and big topic for sure...

A) Much depends on your own understanding of your own skills in "learning how to learn" for yourself... That is, are you aware of your own learning "style"? Do you know how you learn fastest/ easiest in most subjects? Are you a visual or auditory or kinesthetic learner, or what kind or combination thereof? What is your own level of fluency in your mother tongue? Have you studied other languages and how has your success been for those other languages? What emotional connections have you made in your language studies? All of these factors interact within an individual level -- so individualized language learning programs will TRY to consider these different factors -- but as an adult, it is up to you to monitor and guide your own learning... You KNOW when you "get it" and you should also know when "you don't get it." If you are not sure, that is a tip that you need to review that same material again -- maybe in a different way... Seek out help frequently, but remember you are your own master as you move towards language mastery... No one "program" is going to do it for you... In answer to SW, I have NOT been in the AUA program NOR any other formal Thai language learning program in Thailand. I am sure that they all offer good techniques, activities and exercises, but I have created my own environments for learning and that has worked best for me... Yes, quite natural for me...

The answers you provide for yourself to part A) will help to guide you in your language studies... For myself, I have had high success in English (my mother tongue), and I have also studied, Spanish, Latin, German and Swedish to and beyond the university level. I am a polyglot and I have applied my successes in my other languages to my studies of Thai... I KNOW that I am an auditory and musical learner, who enjoys learning practically and passionately. Like learning how to play guitar or sing Jazz -- I enjoy learning how to express myself but also how to listen and repeat what I hear others (e.g., language speakers or musicians) are "saying." I have a very good "ear" -- that my be genetic -- but that is also a skill that I have practiced and developed...

C) When I advise Thai speakers on how to improve their English listening and repeating skills, I say: "Faang leh puut muen nok" = "Listen and speak like a bird." (do not "think too much" but repeat like a "bird"...) This is very important from my perspective... It is very important to listen carefully and repeat identically... In the beginning, it is very hard to accurately repeat the Thai phonemes (sounds) the same as a Thai speaker... You need a good teacher who has lots of patience and you must have lots of patience, too! And, repeated listening and repeating speaking along with Thai language tapes / CDs/ TV/ radio/ music is ESSENTIAL... There are no "shortcuts" -- this takes THOUSANDS of HOURS of listening and repeating... It is not particularly hard, but discipline, diligence and accuracy are needed... A few years ago, I spent many hundreds of hours listening and repeating the tape series for "Thai for Lovers" and "Thai for Beginners/ Intermediate Learners/ Advance Learners" (see Benjawan Poomsan Becker (now Terlecky) et al). It is a good audio tape series for the Thai portion... I listened to those tapes for more than a year while I commuted to and from work... I viewed it almost as a musical exercise in repeating for precision, tone, accuracy for the whole phrase and for individual consonants and vowels...

D) By the way, years ago I took two graduate courses in Linguistics and this gave me the tools via an IPA phonetic alphabet to break down Thai sounds so that they could be "parsed" and intelligible for me -- I have a rather accurate IPA writing system that I use for myself when I write down a new Thai word that I have not heard before... All of these studies I basically did on my own without direct supervision of a Thai teacher... If I was not sure of my accuracy, I would repeat the tape over and over until I mastered that tape... Then I felt I could move on to the "next level."

[The process that I describe above is basically what toddlers & preschoolers of all languages do "naturally" while they begin to master the sound system of their native language and learn the "accent" of their native language... Listen and repeat like a bird -- there is no replacement for that -- until you are confident of your mastery in that language -- you will know when you are reaching mastery because people will understand what you are saying... It is also OK if you speak "wrong" as long as you are open to being taught by your friends and acquaintances in Thai (or whatever new language you are practicing).] And as long as you encourage Thai speakers to correct you whenever needed... Do NOT worry about making mistakes -- that IS how we truly learn!!!

AND MORE IMMERSION:

The first year that I lived and worked in Thailand (8/2004 - 8/2005), I intentionally placed myself in an immersed language setting. I moved into a 100% Thai neighborhood (I avoided Farang friends during this time -- to avoid relying on English for communication...) Yes, give up on your Farang friends for a while if you can... ;-). I shopped at the local Thai market and local Thai businesses. I made many Thai friends. I ASKED QUESTIONS ALL THE TIME: "What is this? What is that? etc." I only listened to Thai TV and radio... I turned on Thai TV first thing in the morning and listened to the news, etc., and then went to work... When I returned home in the evening, I turned on the TV and listened to that until I fell asleep a few hours later... With this approach, I amassed about 4-5 hours a day of listening to Thai mass media X 365 = ~ 1,865 hours per year of semi-active listening for the gist of the story... At first this was very frustrating but I was patient with the fact I could not expect myself to understand every word -- but my progress was cumulative with time... During lunch, I sought out my Thai coworkers and listened to their stories and talked and ate with them...

At the same time during that year, I had two Thai girlfriends in succession... The first GF spoke some English, but soon we switched over to nearly 100% Thai ~ this frustrated her because she wanted to improve her English ~ but I more or less insisted that we speak Thai... (Yes, I am quite stubborn when I have a goal...) And, of course, I carried a dictionary with me at all times!!! REALLY!!! This is also essential as you begin to internalize your new language skills... That relationship ended after about 5 months... And then, I met another nice Thai lady who spoke NO ENGLISH at ALL! With the basic Thai I had learned already, my new GF and I spoke ONLY Thai together... This method allowed me to gain even more time practicing Thai every day ~ 4 hours per day talking with GF X 365 = 1460 hours per year...

As you can see, the thousands of hours really start to add up 1865 + 1460 = ~ 3,325 hours of Thai practice in that year alone... To add "excitement" (passion) to my language learning process, I also bought and drove an old car -- which required frequent repairs by local mechanics... This gave me deep experience in the "auto world" in Thailand for repairs but also for making trips and negotiating with locals for directions and also dealing with Thai police -- all of which was also invaluable for improving my Thai fluency...

For that year, it turned out that my second Thai GF was a "hilltribe" Thai who did not have proper Thai ID (mai mee baht bra-cha-chon Thai) and I hoped that we could fix this problem by working with the local bureaucrats at her amphur... (LONG story on that...) That experience (which elapsed over about 2 years) taught me greatly about Thai bureaucracy, Thai government, Thai lawyers and Thai "rigidness" about who are "true Thais" and not "true Thais." Sadly, I had to abandon that relationship because with inadequate Thai identification papers, that lady would never be able to travel outside of Thailand... Yes, there many hundreds of thousands of Thai people who do not have adequate documentation -- so they are not "true Thais" in the eyes of the Thai government... That is a truly sad story for many "Thai people" in Thailand... See that in other posts... Thai citizenry, Tabien baan, etc...

In Spring 2006, I met some new Thai friends who worked with Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. At that point, I was ready to learn a more "professional" level of Thai language skills... For almost 3 years, I dated a Chula U. ajarn who helped me to become even more proficient in my Thai language skills, politeness and cultural awareness... Much of this learning came out of the natural friendship and fun that comes with new friends and a new girlfriend... As this relationship and process unfolded, my Thai became more fluent all the time...

From end of 2007 to the end of 2008, I worked as an active lecturer in my field at Chula U... As I began teaching my courses, I quickly found out that my students preferred my teaching in Thai over my teaching in English (hey, most young Thais study English in school but English is not a language that they use every day to converse and study...), so it was MUCH easier to teach and hold discussions in Thai as the language of instruction (Yes, I did give my Chula nisit / students readings in English but the discussion was always in Thai).

As you might guess, my Thai improved greatly during my year of teaching at Chula... EVERY Thai person speaks with their own accent and many young Thai university students speak in very quiet (low volume) respectful Thai that varies in accent based on where they grew up and their experience with middle Thai (Bangkok Thai AKA "passa glaang")... Listening and talking with hundreds of different Thais speakers on a WIDE VARIETY of TOPICS greatly improved my daily language skills...

During the same time, I was involved with several research committees and in developing a new international center for Chula U. These discussions with my Chula U. colleagues were ALWAYS in Thai... I also advised a number of students about their masters' levels theses -- again, in Thai... Of course, I also maintained my friendships with my GF and other Thai friends at the same time... All of these activities reinforced and extended my Thai language and cultural skills...

You can start to imagine how intense this level of IMMERSION has really been for me if you think about it... Just for the 2007 to 2008 year, I probably accrued 16 X 365 = ~ 5,840 hours of Thai practice and study just for that year... Of course, the level of intensity varies from activity to activity... But I highly recommend teaching the subject matter of your field in Thai ~ not many better ways to improve your own Thai ~ chai mai krab??? Oh, by the way, I almost forgot that I _often_ fell asleep in my room with my TV on ~ yet again adding hundreds more hours of passive study of Thai language...

So, in summary, if I include all extraneous studies and conversations, etc., I have probably accrued about 15,000 HOURS of Thai study and conversation to date since I first visited Thailand in 2002... Most Farang have not yet accrued 10% of that same amount of study time using true immersion methods... I am not criticizing most Farang, the reality is that most Farang do not have the time or the interest to study Thai so deeply... A SMALL percentage of Farang DO invest this LARGE amount of time and those Farang DO reap the benefits and rewards of learning Thai language, Thai culture and Thai people at a very deep level...

Please feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. This may be my last post on this particular string because it seems that other folks have already exhaustively discussed other methods...

As you can see, gaining fluency with Thai language, Thai people and Thailand is very much an individual journey... Thanks for reading and listening...

And, keep in mind that you will be creating your OWN version of Thai language for YOURSELF... Like playing a musical instrument with fluency and dexterity, you will learn to improvise best by playing with other people... It is very much like JAZZ!!!

Good luck to everyone for all of your Thai studies... AND YES, I AM _STILL_ LEARNING! ;-)

Chok dee na krab!

Succinct?

(I've no idea what this means; I'm just using it for effect...)

Edited August 25, 2009 by dippytart

[charlie10]

I found Pro- language in Times Square building very good. I had studied Thai at night class at SOAS (London University School of Oriental and Afrrican Studies) for a year before coming to Thailand but found myself still struggling quite a lot. Did the beginners course at Pro Language and thought it was very good. They kept it admirably simple but I really learnt the fundamentals of speaking Thai very quickly. Good course materials and the teacher was very good.

The problem I have with both Thai language learning experiences is that there is never sufficient focus on tones. You end up learning Thai words rather than both the words and tone. There is never enough stress on speaking the tone of the word correctly, and as a result, you never do. Most books / Cd's and audio systems also fail at this.

I recently bought Speak Thai book and 3 hour DVD as learnspeakthai.com and for the first time actually got my head around being able to identify and speak tones. It's worth buying it for the tone practice exercises alone. I'd recomend anyone wanting to speak Thai to check it out. Even if you're doing or intending to do lessons. The words and phrases you learn are really practical. I hear them being used all the time, which can't be said for much of what I have learnt elsewhere. They also do an Isaan Thai version of the book and DVD which could be interesting.

[worldfun]

dseawarrior,

wow wow wow - you probably are one of a kind or at least highly unique as a truly immersed & fluent thai speaker, but as you said you also had personal advantages specifically the linguestic skills/abilities as well as time/possibility/will to study, learn & abandon several girlfriends who came in the way of your thai language travels

hats off to that & that you also seem to have found an interesting job niche here.

personally I'm considering if I should use a bit of 'idle time' to take my very basic thai to the next level(s) & if yes what would the best way (school) be...???

definitely I'm not a natural language learner although I did master english as a 2nd language pretty fluently & even a 3rd language besides Thai.

for dseawarrior I might worry however if his immersion in Thai could ever threat his native english? well writing at least is still pretty good

keep up the immersion - cheers!

[CaptainNemo]

Hiya,

Does anyone know about what kind of Thai language studying options exist in the South East generally? (I mean east of Pattaya & Jonbury).

What is there in Rayongshire, Jantabury, Brajinbury, Satgaew, & Drat? (Not much, I s'pose?).

[Sateev]

I'm having trouble following this thread. Is there only one AUA school, as mentioned above?

AUA is a good example of a school with pseudo-scientific claims – this school states in its sales leaflet that they have never seen a student master Thai who has not learned via the natural method.

Is this the same AUA company which has a branch in Seri Center, or is it a separate Thai language school? I was trying to work out whether AUA was a university, but someone in the 'Teaching In Thailand' forum said it was a langauge center - AUA's website says they teach English - do they also teach Thai?

Appreciate any info.

Also, there was a member called 'Soloman' who seemed interested in learning Thai. I have advice for him and anyone else which is that location is a key factor in deciding where to study. When I was looking around, UTL was one of the closest to where I live. If someone told me that Bangkok's best school was 30km away from my house - what difference would it make? I'd spend more on transport than on learning Thai - you just need the access to a real teacher (there is a difference!)

AUA is 'American University Alumni', and primarily teaches English to Thai students. They also have a rather small (compared to their English program) Thai Language department, where they use ALG - Automatic Language Growth, a method sometimes described as 'natural learning'. The main campus is located on Ratchdamri Rd., not far from the BTS station. They have had a branch in Chiang Mai, but I am not sure they use ALG there. They may have recently opened other branches in/near BKK, check the website for more info.

Having studied there, and at UTL, I can offer only my own impression: AUA does encourage natural sounding speech, mainly because they, in contrast to UTL (and Union, UTL's predecessor), do NOT use Romanization, or, indeed, ANY written lesson work, for the first 1000-2000 hrs. of instruction. They rely on the teachers acting and drawing on a whiteboard, to impart meaning and understanding of the material presented, and conduct class in Thai ONLY.

In my opinion, though, the missing pieces are speaking and feedback, which I believe, are required to facilitate improvement. The ALG method is quite clear: "DO NOT SPEAK THAI". I find this rule is broken frequently, with the encouragement of the teachers there, presumably because it is next to impossible to participate in class without speaking at least SOME Thai...

My experience at UTL was, however, not very good, either. The early reliance on transliteration and their script was especially problematic for me, since I joined the school, and was placed in Module 3, beginning reading and writing. I knew the alphabet and vowels BEFORE I started, and had to go back and learn their Romanization script in order to follow the lessons.

So my complaint with UTL may just be a problem with my own set of circumstances. However, once I overcame the initial problems, I still found the approach to be difficult: repetition, and many hours of written homework. I could do most of it on my own, and at my own pace to better effect than trying to keep up with the rather fast pace of the class.

Part of the problem may have been my age: I was 55 when I studied at UTL. Most of my classmates were in their 20s, or early 30s, and seemed to pick it up faster. The method, which as I said earlier, is exactly the same as Union Language School, established by Christ Church Thailand to train (presumably young) missionaries, and was considered one of the best schools. I have friends who finished the course, and were successful at passing the Prathom 6 test.

There are many examples of AUA's classes on YouTube; search for 'ALG'. David Long, who is the school's director, explains (and touts) ALG in great detail.

In the end, I agree with those who say that there is NO single best method for all learners. Your own learning style and intellectual capacities will determine how best to proceed. Given enough time, however, I DO believe that immersion can be profitable for almost anyone who wants to learn Thai.

[SoftWater]

My experience at UTL was, however, not very good, either. The early reliance on transliteration and their script was especially problematic for me, since I joined the school, and was placed in Module 3, beginning reading and writing. I knew the alphabet and vowels BEFORE I started, and had to go back and learn their Romanization script in order to follow the lessons.

So my complaint with UTL may just be a problem with my own set of circumstances. However, once I overcame the initial problems, I still found the approach to be difficult: repetition, and many hours of written homework. I could do most of it on my own, and at my own pace to better effect than trying to keep up with the rather fast pace of the class.

Part of the problem may have been my age: I was 55 when I studied at UTL. Most of my classmates were in their 20s, or early 30s, and seemed to pick it up faster. The method, which as I said earlier, is exactly the same as Union Language School, established by Christ Church Thailand to train (presumably young) missionaries, and was considered one of the best schools. I have friends who finished the course, and were successful at passing the Prathom 6 test.

I don't know UTL, but I'd just like to point out that the many Union schools are not all EXACTLY the same. They are based on the same curriculum, but they may have developed different styles. For example, I went straight into Module 3 in another Union school, and there was no transliteration or romanization used at all. There was plenty of repetition and homework, but to my mind that is necessary and desirable for consolidation and internalization. As I often tell my Thai students, you cannot master a second language in class time alone. Class time should be for getting native speaker modelling, speaking practice and discussion and explaation over the texts. When I did the reading module, the class went like this:

1. Tch introduced a topic and asked my opinon about it, or how it is in my own country (according to subject). During this time she would introduce any relevant vocab that it was clear I didn't possess, but only in thai script.

2. I read the text that (surprise surprise) is on the very topic we've just been discussing.

3. Tch would ask me a few comprehension questions and/or i would ask for the meaning of words I didn't get in the text. The questions and answer would always and only be in Thai

4. When we were done with the text, she would then dictate a short, but related text for me to write down.

5. I'd get some homework based on this topic to write a paragraph on.

The lesson format followed this pattern almost identically every time, and I have to say that predictablility was a bit dull, but given that the topic changed each lesson i was always being challenged. The one area that probably needed improvement was repetition of earlier lessons in later lessons, but given the time available I'd say the lessons were pretty good and pretty effective. Even though it was a reading/writing course, i got just as much speaking practice out of it, and it did wonders at the time for my confidence (which I have now lost having not been back to school in nearly a year and a half).

Incidentally, I did the next module 3.1 after this at the same school but with a different teacher. The lesson format was exactly the same.

I don't know about UTL, but the Union school I went to gets a good 8/10.

Edited September 5, 2009 by SoftWater

[worldfun]

I came across a new school that looks interesting in that it offers a unique mix of intensive courses as:

1) speak & read - 120hours/6 week modules - 11k - 8-12am mon-fri. for the 2 beginner courses 1h out of the 4 is used on thai script & once mastered tranliteration willk be abandoned

2) only reading or speaking course - 90hours/6wk modules - 9k - 1-4pm.

3) refresher/special courses of 10hours+ @350bt/h. Can e.g. be used to improve/focus prononciation or brush up on previous studies prior to entering a group course...

Also course materials are inclusive & includes dvd, book etc. Seems nicely though out according web, so what could be nice is to have some experiences/knowledge on them although it may be hard as I heard they just open this year?

Everyday Thai Language School near Chang Nonsi BTS (Sathorn rd/naranthivas). http://www.everyday-thai.com .

Anybody heard/tried/visited them (yet)?

Thanks!

[SoftWater]

I came across a new school that looks interesting in that it offers a unique mix of intensive courses as:

1) speak & read - 120hours/6 week modules - 11k - 8-12am mon-fri. for the 2 beginner courses 1h out of the 4 is used on thai script & once mastered tranliteration willk be abandoned

2) only reading or speaking course - 90hours/6wk modules - 9k - 1-4pm.

3) refresher/special courses of 10hours+ @350bt/h. Can e.g. be used to improve/focus prononciation or brush up on previous studies prior to entering a group course...

Also course materials are inclusive & includes dvd, book etc. Seems nicely though out according web, so what could be nice is to have some experiences/knowledge on them although it may be hard as I heard they just open this year?

Everyday Thai Language School near Chang Nonsi BTS (Sathorn rd/naranthivas). http://www.everyday-thai.com .

Anybody heard/tried/visited them (yet)?

Thanks!

No, but thanks. I will definitely have a look because its on my way home! (One of the reasons i keep putting off going back to school is findina good one that doesn't involve me taking a detour after work!!).

[worldfun]

well for me it's actually quite a detour living in the northern outskirts, but since I haven't come across any such schools up there this still seems my best bet currently for an intensive traditional school type. I know walen & others are up there, but I don't consider their types worthwhile no offense meant.

for you as an after school type I'm afraid you may leave empty handed as they only seem to offer grouo courses 8-12 or 13-16, so unless your work is alternative hours only their private lessons may be an option?

I'll drop by tomorrow & offer more info as it evolves...

cheers!

[worldfun]

umm narrowed it down to 3 schools with quite different methods, locations, price:

1) everyday thai - intensive 4 hours daily mon-fri 8-12 @ sathorn/narithivas 120 hours, 11,000 baht (main driver is modern interactive mixed talking & reading is taught initially with fonetics, but asap with script?)

2) walen - most intensive option is 9 hours weekly over 3 days @ ladprao/rachadpisek/pahonyothin - 60 hours, 9900bt (main driver is location & no fonetics & sexy female(s)?)

3) utl/unity - traditional intensive 'missionary' course as outsider 80 hours, 5700bt! (cheap cheap cheap, BUT no reading until level 3 & I have to start level 1!)

comments?

especially I'm natural sceptical on walen & their teachers & even the callan english 'method' which I've never seen any 'proven' records or major scientific/academic backing - merely claims of '4 times faster' than regular learning for english as 2nd language...

BUT this is now Thai language - totally different animal pretty much all over the board!

do any of the teachers have degree(s)? never been answered/commented so far

[Rionoir]

From what I understand about Wallen you don't actually learn to "read" so much as just memorizing what words look like. I'm sure their cheerleader PR department will post otherwise, but it's must more efficient to actually learn the alphabet and rules etc. than it is to memorize every word in the language.

#1 sounds similar to what I did at chula... we did 5 weeks of phonetics in order to concentrate on speaking and hearing the tones accurately before reading and writing. I liked it a lot, but you have to be dedicated enough to study a LOT to keep up with an intensive class... it's at least another 4 hours a day sometimes. (depending how intense it is)

[MacWalen]

Wallen = Walen

Why guessing, come for a free demonstration, you actually learn to read words not memorize them.

Regards, Walen School

Ps. Pretty teachers can also be good teachers, one does not exclude the other. Not all good teachers have to be older ladies.

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited February 28, 2011 by macwalen