Bangkok Administration Tries To Soothe Foreign Firms' Fears Over Transit System Plans

[webfact]

BMA tries to soothe foreign firms' fears over transit system plans

NONGNAPAS MAIPANICH

THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- Foreign railway-equipment companies have expressed concern over the uncertainty surrounding Thailand's mass-transit policy, but the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority's Traffic and Transportation Department insists that the government will go ahead with the 10-route Skytrain extension project.

During this week's seventh annual "Railworld Summit" in Bangkok, Orawit Hemajutha, deputy director of the department, said the government expected to start construction all 10 new Skytrain routes within four years.

Most participants in the summit, which ends tomorrow, are foreign businesspeople dealing in train technology who have paid close attention to Thailand's plans for development of its rail system.

"Many of them had questions about Thailand's electric-train project on concerns over any possible change," Orawit said. "I told them that the project had been considered carefully. It is a clear plan without any change. The government will certainly proceed with 10 [new] Skytrain lines."

To reduce traffic congestion in Bangkok and its vicinity, the central government plans to lessen travel via private cars, promote traffic discipline, and encourage people to travel more on the mass-transit systems, Orawit said.

"The BMA, together with traffic police, is responsible for installation of traffic lights and traffic management. Speed-detection technology is applied for traffic management. It also helps lessen the [traffic-control] workforce.

"We also supervise mass-transit services. Having several commuter-rail operators will not hinder management. In other countries, there are several operators. Their routes are smoothly connected," Orawit said.

He said Thailand would promote development of areas close to mass-transit stations to add value to the project.

The government may have to make it more convenient for people to access the transit system to encourage them to use its services.

-- The Nation 2012-10-25

[fareastguy]

"We also supervise mass-transit services. Having several commuter-rail operators will not hinder management. In other countries, there are several operators. Their routes are smoothly connected," Orawit said.

The difference being in other countries they have an excellent working relationship between the large transport companies, Thailand has a proven record that inter departmental or company to company relationships very rarely exist !

[pisico]

..."In other countries, there are several operators. Their routes are smoothly connected," Orawit said.

In other countries corruption is not rampant as it is in Amazing Thailand. That is hardly a qualifier to rate the quality of planing in the LOS.

For sure that friends of friends of the powers that be will make sure to purchase land for cheap ahead of construction of those projected new lines and ensure "development of areas close to mass-transit stations". 555. The sad part of all this is that the population, in the event that they are aware of what is going on, will accept the status quo as part of the way things are... the show will go on... TIT

[MaxLee]

I've got only two words for those mass transit ministers why Bangkok won't ditch their cars: the upcoming first car policy; it means no matter how much in public transportation railway or BTS you spend, it's not gonna solve any traffic problems...

And a high speed bullet train in Thailand???? Under this underinvested, deteriorating infrastructure and yearly flood problems on soft soil???????

I think many people are gonna die if they take any mode of transportation on a weak infrastructure.

[asiawatcher]

There is little doubt running rail links will help but try putting on extra carriages because right now the trains are overcrowded and a danger. If trains are overcrowded people will revert to cars.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

And I would agree - who cares who's making big money on the resulting localized real-estate booms, as long as Bangkok starts to make a dent in its fundamental lifestyle issue and IMO biggest barrier to growth.

Of course the grand poobahs will never effectively reduce private car traffic through schemes like London's and Singapore's, because they'd never dream of using public transport themselves.

But as long as they provide better alternatives for people who put efficiency above face/status, who cares, let them suffer for their conceit - my investment in a company producing in-car toilets will I'm sure continue to pay off nicely 8-)

[Thai at Heart]

the gargantuan stock of downtown condos will be sold before this expansion happens.

[Om85]

Fist of all they should create a longer skytrain rout covering important places like rangsit, don mueng etc, sencond they should lower the prices of the ticket, in beijing a ticket covering the whole route costed only 4-5 yuan(25 bat) here skytrain and mrt tickets are too expensive.

[kotsak]

At least they've figured out what kind of lunchboxes they'll be serving on the high speed bullet trains..

[Lakegeneve]

There is little doubt running rail links will help but try putting on extra carriages because right now the trains are overcrowded and a danger. If trains are overcrowded people will revert to cars.

This is the problem with having a private company concessionaire model. The reason why BTSC and BMCL (operator of the MRT) have not been able to purchase new rolling stock earlier when they should have to meet pax growth is that both have been debt laden.

Basically, purchases that were planned for 06 & 07 for the BTS are only now being delivered due to late ordering.

[Lakegeneve]

Fist of all they should create a longer skytrain rout covering important places like rangsit, don mueng etc, sencond they should lower the prices of the ticket, in beijing a ticket covering the whole route costed only 4-5 yuan(25 bat) here skytrain and mrt tickets are too expensive.

Firstly, a simple google search would show you that the areas you have mentioned will actually be served by a BTS line (Mo Chit to Saphan Mai ext), a MRTA line (Pink line), a SRT suburban line to Rangsit (Dark red line) in future years and the ARL ext to DMK. That is 4 lines for DMK This map of the current Master Plan may assist you but you can also peruse another thread for information, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406991-the-new-skytrain/page__st__75

Secondly, it is true to say that the BTS and MRT fares are relatively high given the limited, unintegrated network. (For example, we should be able to purchase a day ticket for unlimited trips on the BTS, MRT and ARL Cityline for around 100 baht. Yet a day ticket on the BTS only sets one back 120 baht) However, the fare prices were always intentional as it is targeted at a certain income group. Imagine how much worse overcrowding would currently be if fares were 50% cheaper! Wait until the Samut Prakan BTS ext opens in a few years and the max fare will be around 60 baht.

That being said the PT was elected last year on the promise of a flat 20 baht fare. Unrealistic for the future as the govt would have to subsidise the private operators huge amounts but of course it was populist electoral fodder to try to win a few more BKK seats (which they didn't).

[Lakegeneve]

It is worth noting that of the 10 lines mentioned 3 will most likely start next year; Dark Red line, Pink line and most likely the ARL ext to DMK. Plus the long delayed BTS ext from Mo Chit to Saphan Mai is said to get going next year but then decision makers have been stating that for each of the last 6 years!

Currently, we have the soon to be opened BTS WWY to Bang Wah (1st stage) ext, the Purple line being built, the Blue line ext well underway and the BTS ext from Bearing to Samut Prakhan which started recently. You can see a summary list of all planned lines here, post #86 http://www.thaivisa....in/page__st__75

You can also ask any queries in that thread.

The main problem is that the whole framework is a dysfunctional mess involving 7 state agencies (some competing against each other), 3 private companies and then all politicians interfering in the process for their own gain. Bangkok is a good example of how not to implement and manage mass transit. Half of what is proposed should have been built by now if there was a more efficient framework in place (Indeed Taksin in the 2005 election, which established the current 10 line Master Plan, promised that all lines would be complete by 2009 - yet of course nothing was even started in his next 2.5 yrs in office). A single govt agency would be more effective for the reasons summarised elsewhere, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/532446-bma-progress-on-bts-silom-line-extension-set-for-services-next-year/#entry5077100

In many ways it is a complete mess which slowly advances in small spurts - though we are in the middle of a much delayed frenzy of building. In others respects if you compare to other similar SE cities such as Jakarta (still no metro), HCM (just started their first line), Manila (a limited, crowded light rail metro slowly being expanded) then BKK is doing well and the overall quality of what will be the future metro network is very high. However, it is no China, HK or Singapore!

Edited October 25, 2012 by Lakegeneve

[planr]

Fist of all they should create a longer skytrain rout covering important places like rangsit, don mueng etc, sencond they should lower the prices of the ticket, in beijing a ticket covering the whole route costed only 4-5 yuan(25 bat) here skytrain and mrt tickets are too expensive.

LakeGeneve already addressed your first point. To your second point, in Beijing, the system is wholly owned and operated by the government and can thus be heavily subsidized; in Bangkok, the BTS and MRT are both privately operated by listed companies... you won't see them purposely running at a loss any time soon.

[tingtongtourist]

And I would agree - who cares who's making big money on the resulting localized real-estate booms, as long as Bangkok starts to make a dent in its fundamental lifestyle issue and IMO biggest barrier to growth.

Of course the grand poobahs will never effectively reduce private car traffic through schemes like London's and Singapore's, because they'd never dream of using public transport themselves.

But as long as they provide better alternatives for people who put efficiency above face/status, who cares, let them suffer for their conceit - my investment in a company producing in-car toilets will I'm sure continue to pay off nicely 8-)

A funnel, hose and bottle very cheap but not to know how to solve the number2 problem

[hellodolly]

It is worth noting that of the 10 lines mentioned 3 will most likely start next year; Dark Red line, Pink line and most likely the ARL ext to DMK. Plus the long delayed BTS ext from Mo Chit to Saphan Mai is said to get going next year but then decision makers have been stating that for each of the last 6 years!

Currently, we have the soon to be opened BTS WWY to Bang Wah (1st stage) ext, the Purple line being built, the Blue line ext well underway and the BTS ext from Bearing to Samut Prakhan which started recently. You can see a summary list of all planned lines here, post #86 http://www.thaivisa....in/page__st__75

You can also ask any queries in that thread.

The main problem is that the whole framework is a dysfunctional mess involving 7 state agencies (some competing against each other), 3 private companies and then all politicians interfering in the process for their own gain. Bangkok is a good example of how not to implement and manage mass transit. Half of what is proposed should have been built by now if there was a more efficient framework in place (Indeed Taksin in the 2005 election, which established the current 10 line Master Plan, promised that all lines would be complete by 2009 - yet of course nothing was even started in his next 2.5 yrs in office). A single govt agency would be more effective for the reasons summarised elsewhere, http://www.thaivisa....r/#entry5077100

In many ways it is a complete mess which slowly advances in small spurts - though we are in the middle of a much delayed frenzy of building. In others respects if you compare to other similar SE cities such as Jakarta (still no metro), HCM (just started their first line), Manila (a limited, crowded light rail metro slowly being expanded) then BKK is doing well and the overall quality of what will be the future metro network is very high. However, it is no China, HK or Singapore!

Forgive me I amnot really that conversant with the problem.

You said

"The main problem is that the whole framework is a dysfunctional mess involving 7 state agencies (some competing against each other), 3 private companies and then all politicians interfering in the process for their own gain."

Seems to me the federal Government was mixing in there trying to stop the plans Bangkok was implementing.

Sorry if I am wrong but is that not wrong.

[MaxLee]

As I refer to the 3G auction scandal, same thing in here, the government wants to reap huge benefits from the Transportation ministries, so in other words, same thing, invest in crap low money and sell expensive to the dawdling customers

[Lakegeneve]

Forgive me I amnot really that conversant with the problem.

You said

"The main problem is that the whole framework is a dysfunctional mess involving 7 state agencies (some competing against each other), 3 private companies and then all politicians interfering in the process for their own gain."

Seems to me the federal Government was mixing in there trying to stop the plans Bangkok was implementing.

Sorry if I am wrong but is that not wrong.

No need to be sorry about anything as the situation is a mess at best. Most, if not all, of the planned lines will be funded by the National government.

The MOT (Min of Transport) has a planning agency which generated the Master Plan, OTP (Office of Transport Planning and Policy, http://vigportal.mot.go.th/portal/site/PortalMOTEN/about/otp-en/) and a statutory implementing and management agency the MRTA (Mass Rapid Transport Authority, http://www.mrta.co.th/eng/ - Note: site not updated).

MOT also has oversight of the SRT (State Railways of Thailand). The MRTA is the main agency implementing and contracting the planned metro lines under the Master Plan. (I will list later)

The BMA has a Public and Transport Department (previously Traffic & Transport) which manages buses, vans and ferries via the BMTA (BKK Mass Transport Authority).

It has also funded and contracted the 3 BTS exts;

1) Silom line ST to WWY,

2) Suk line On Nut to Bearing,

3) Silom line WWY to Bang Wah (under construct)

and it also built the BRT line and established a company to run it before giving the contract to the BTSC. The BMA also has a policy planning dept.

As an example of competing plans, both OTP and the BMA has different plans for future BRT lines and seemingly won't discuss with each other any overlap issues!

It is important to also note that the politics between the what has been since 2004 the Democrat controlled BMA, and National Government has been intense both when Taksin was in power and more recently. The BMA won much kudos for funding the two BTS completed exts - even though both were delayed by years - at a time when the national govt was wanting to nationalise the BTS and thus not funding any BTS exts. (I am briefly summarising the politics as there has been much over the years).

More recently, the BMA extended the BTSCs concession period by 30 yrs thus upsetting the national government which has asked the DSI (Dept of Special Investigations of Royal Thai Police) to investigate the extension for alleged breaches of law. Part of this is the PT's 20 baht flat fare election promise which to be successfully implemented would require the national government to exert more control over the operators (fares are set by the MRTA as per concession conditions).

The MRTA is responsible for the following lines/exts-

Under Construct:

1) Purple line , 2) Blue line, 3) BTS Suk line ext Bearing to Samut Prakhan

Planned soon:

4) Pink line, 5) Orange Line, 7) BTS Suk line ext Mo Chit to Saphan Mai

Thereafter:

8) Yellow line, 9) Purple line south, 10) Grey line, 11) Black line

The SRT is responsible for the following lines/ets -

1) Light Red line (Completed), 2) ARL ext to DMK 3) Dark Red line (Const. delayed), 4) Light Red line ext to Salaya, 5) Dark Red line south to Mahachai

As you can see the MRTA and SRT (suburban lines) are building the overwhelming majority of the future network and rely on funds approved by the national govt.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Lakegeneve

[rubl]

During this week's seventh annual "Railworld Summit" in Bangkok, Orawit Hemajutha, deputy director of the department, said the government expected to start construction all 10 new Skytrain routes within four years.

...

Orawit said. "I told them that the project had been considered carefully. It is a clear plan without any change. The government will certainly proceed with 10 [new] Skytrain lines."

Start within four years, certainly proceed, Rome wasn't build in a day.

At least the BTS Thonburi line will get a few more stations soon and a double track crossing of the Chao Praya a wee bit after. The (SRT?) extension from Bang Su up North is supposed to be under construction. There is progress if ever so slowly.

[Thai at Heart]

Will they manage to get the names of the stations where the BTS and the MRT intersect the same this time around. If ever there was a more confusing concept in terms of an "integrated" transport system.

[americaninbangkok]

And a high speed bullet train in Thailand???? Under this underinvested, deteriorating infrastructure and yearly flood problems on soft soil???????

I think many people are gonna die if they take any mode of transportation on a weak infrastructure.

Yes, but they will die faster.

[Screws]

"We also supervise mass-transit services. Having several commuter-rail operators will not hinder management. In other countries, there are several operators. Their routes are smoothly connected," Orawit said.

The difference being in other countries they have an excellent working relationship between the large transport companies, Thailand has a proven record that inter departmental or company to company relationships very rarely exist !

Look at BITEC - their walkway to BangNa Station has been finished best part of a year. Then there is a 150 M air gap - <deleted> BMA gonna make em wait - poor khon Krungthep -

[gk10002000]

There is little doubt running rail links will help but try putting on extra carriages because right now the trains are overcrowded and a danger. If trains are overcrowded people will revert to cars.

Pretty soon there may be so many people and so many carriages needed that the line will be full! The train will be literally like a coal conveyor belt. A complete circuit