Tree Advise Needed

[Phil Conners]

We had a nice tree outside our old house, shaped like an umbrella, providing nice shadow without much leaf shedding. Now I'm trying to find another tree like it, but the places selling trees all recommend I don't plant this type of tree unless I have a l lot of space. I intend to plant it in my garden, with 2-3 mtr to nearest wall. Will this be a problem for the roots?

Of course it doesn't have to be exactly this type tree, I'm open for recommendations. Basically I'd like something where the crown is at least 3-4 mtr up, umbrella shaped (more or less), roots that seek down (as opposed to sideways, into walls, wells etc) and not too much leaf shedding. The objective is shadow.

What say you?

[xen]

Starting with 'A' how about avocado . Keep pruned to your ideal height . For the purposes of shade you can use a seedling and if you want fruit , buy a grafted tree. Make sure an avocado is well drained though.

Should we go onto 'B' ?

[xen]

Also starting with 'A' is albiza . Quick growing, but not a long life, small tree with showy flowers. Grows well in Pataya as i have seen quite a few over on the Darkside if that is any help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albizia

[Phil Conners]

I think it's very difficult to get an Avocado tree to grow in Thailand? Anyway fruit isn't really a priority, just some shadow, preferably high-ish up.

The Albiza looks nice, but seems quite low/bushy. Would like the crown 3-4 meter up or more.

What is the tree in my picture called? I showed the picture to some "tree shops" and they immediately recognized it and said the roots were going to make problems? The tree in the picture is right next to a wall and has never been a problem, so ... is this just superstition or is this really a wall/well killer?

[xen]

Does the tree look like this close up ? If so it is Couroupita gianensis.or Cannon ball tree. I have seen quiet a few in Penang but not so many in Thailand. It is an enormous tree in itself without the additional problems of roots . If not , can you tell me what the people who recognised it said it was.

Also i think i mentioned that Avocardo tree are great for shade but need extremely well drained soil. They are hard to grow if the soil is constantly wet. Also Albiza can be trained to grow into that shape for shade by pruning the lower branches.

Another tree you may wish to consider is bauhinia galpinii or butterfly tree.

[Phil Conners]

No it doesn't look like the cannon ball tree.

My wife says it's called "Theen pad" - duck feet. Does that ring a bell?

The soil is quite moist here as we're quite low, so Avocado is probably not a good choice.

Edit: Here's a picture of tree close up:

[xen]

i think it is Alstonia scholaris or Milky pine - does it have a milky sap like a rubber tree ? it is a rainforest tree but can grow quiet tall in the forest but i would say in an more open location will spread more in canopy than in height. My gf actually found it by looking for Theen Pad.

[cooked]

What ever you decide on, don't go and buy an expensive, huge tree. A small seedling will grow quickly, and you will be worrying about how to prune it soon enough.

[kokesaat]

It's an Alstonia scholaris tree.......ตีนเป็ด in Thai. Lots of info at wikipedia. Common shade tree around Thailand. We have a few in our yard......no problems with bugs, termites, fruit, etc. The annual flowers have a very sweet smell....don't bother me, but too strong for my wife.

Google 'Dhanasak Chullakesa wrote to ask' for a recent English language article about the tree.

Another fast growing tree that we have in our yard is the neem tree (sadao....ต้นสะเดา). The leaves drop almost overnight as the weather cools, then come right back. Thais eat the young flowers and leaves with lahb. It's called the 'health tree' in India.......almost all parts of the tree can be used for a variety of ailments/pesticides/teeth cleaning/etc. Easy to grow, impervious to pests, and provide good shade.

[Phil Conners]

Thanks. So the question is, are the roots really as bad as the Thai's want me to believe? Like I said, there's going to be at least 2 mtr to any walls. I know some of the mangrove(?) trees like to shoot their roots vertically in all directions but if it goes the normal 30-40 degrees down, it should not be any problem, right?

You're right about the smell, my wife mentioned that the flowers don't smell good. I never noticed anything, after 4 years of having one just outside the gate.

I had one offered, about 4-5 mtr tall already, planted for 1,200 bath, so money is not the issue.

[Phil Conners]

Here's another tree we like. Its on Pattaya Nua just before the roundabout.

Anyone know what it is?

[xen]

Sorry Phil, i would need a closer photo (perhaps the leaves ,canopy and bark ) to be able to attempt to give it a name . It looks like they have been Flat-Topped for the power lines too so they may be a bigger tree in an open position than what it appears to be in that situation grown as a street tree..

I was also going to reply again about the Alstonia . If you are concerned about tree roots and you are going to plant it where there is only a 4 metre diameter root zone then there are a couple of cultivation things you can do by making sure the hole that is planted in is quite large and back filled with a mixture of good imported soils with at least 10% organic matter and the parent soil so the roots and the tree do not have seek out nutrient , install a root barrier along the fence and buildings A root barrier is installed by digging a narrow trench to between 500 mm to 1 metre depending on the soil and putting a barrier of plastic sheeting or fibro-cement sheeting to prevent the roots escaping - however take notice of stability of the tree from wind as the roots also function to stabilize a tree in wind) . Also do not put those ridiculous and completely useless staking structures around the tree that you see all over Thailand. Thirdly restrict the drip line of the trees canopy to that of the area that you would allow the roots to be roughly restricted too. Not a perfect way of growing a tree but many street trees are grown in these types of conditions. I personally would choose another species to grow in that space even though i do like the tree.

[Phil Conners]

Ah ok, we thought it was naturally like that.

I'm just realizing our concrete underground freshwater tank is going to be just about 2 mtr from the tree, is that going to be a problem? I hear stories of treeroot being able to smell out large bodies of water and quite aggressively digging in for it. Is this real or just superstition?

I'm not sure a dripline will be relevant as we're going to concrete/tile the whole yard except for holes of maybe 1-1.5 meter diameter for the trees.

Basically we just want something that grows high up in the air with a naturally umbrella-like crown creating some shadow over the yard and house.

[xen]

Regarding tree roots seeking out water i had always accepted as fact and , i still do , depending on the species, but i have been talking to a college who lectures in arbourculture and he has been saying that a bigger influence on tree roots and how invasive they are , is the structure of the soil (clay thru to sand soils. ) and the availability of oxygen in the soil. If this is so then the tree roots will remain where there is availability of oxygen and water and that will be not be far from the 1 to1.5 metre hole. The biggest problem you will have with a tree and the concrete is the roots rising to the surface to access more oxygen and moisture which will lift your concrete eventually. If you lay a black plastic under the concrete then the tree will suffer. The Alstonia being a rainforest tree may develop buttress roots to combat the adverse conditions and begin to develop on top of the concrete is another scenario but not likely. With regards to your water tank that should not be a problem as long as it is has a good wall thickness.

Sorry mate , there is no easy answer.

Have you considered a pergola with a vine for shade if you are going to concrete the area?