Is Thailand A 3rd World Country Still?

[Boon Mee]

Actually, I went to a liberal arts undergraduate college, and to a top science university for graduate studies. There is top value in both degrees. If you don't believe me, I'll tell you this: I spent 3 years of my graduate school education thinking through solutions to 20 problems that were a result of the 1 problem solved by top engineering students in the world

Yep...my point exactly, Kat.

Besides, there's more $ to be made with a graduate degree in engineering/science.

Unless, of course, you're tops in sales - bit more there.

[BAF]

BAF, you have pointed to some issues raised by DAW pertaining to women's rights in S Korea as if they are the defining difference in the argument so far.

Since you aren't a lower income Korean woman I guess you can afford the luxury to regard these "issues" as secondary details but, thedude, I seem to remember that until a few posts ago these very same "issues" were so important, to you, to make you prefer South Korea over Italy (two countries you have, admittedly, never set foot in) just because of the edge that you think South Korea had in this very area.

Are these the only issues dividing S Korea from the 1st world?

No, this is merely the one you chose yourself to bring on when I was introducing to you the socio-political differences between the two countries.

What other social-political issues separate S Korea from the 1st world?

BAF to steveromagnino, post #132 "For a start you could look in the area of the human rights (as I was hinting), from the protection granted by the law to the minorities to the rights granted to foreigners, and the political maturity of a country where the first civilian head of state (after the last military backed dictator) in a long time has been elected in december of 1992 under a brand new, finally democratic constitution..."

Are you asking me to do again the work for you like I have been dragged to do in the case of the women's rights?

Sorry thedude, I am not here to impart you a free education with my free time, especially given the vastness of the matter (which you clearly do not realize).

At what point will an eastern NIC country be deemed western enough to assume 1st world status?

When they will be the ones helping and not the ones helped? When they will be the ones pressing others on "issues" like the women's rights and not the ones pressed? When they will be the ones leading reforms, modernizations and advancement in the international institutions and organizations and not the ones following or being dragged about?

Do you think there is a particular international organization or "easy" and "easy to find" steveromagnino's link/stat/website which will announce the world "hey, from today on South Korea is officially a 1st world country"?

Do you think this is a children's play we are talking about?

Countries are continually "examined" (and "rated") by a plethora of international bodies, institutions and organizations for the most diverse purposes like research, study, compare, aid and cooperate.

For example, for the specific subject you raised (women's rights) I have just pointed one of them to you (the most authoritative in this particular area, the one whose reports, conclusions and recommendations are received and followed up on by the examined countries' governments themselves, if they are amongst the signers of the CEDAW -and BTW South Korea is-)

You have not answered this, and i suspect you don't have the answer because it all sounds terribly subjective to me so far.

Yes, I and the United Nations...

You have rejected what seems to be fairly acceptable measures suggested by Steve (which cover more than just women's rights) because those measures fail to prove your point, but you offer no standard measure yourself. You know very well that you can pretent to hold your position as long as you do not agree on a standard meansure.

What are you babbling about?

The WFE's "first ever study that attempts to quantify the size of the gender gap in 58 countries" in which China scores better than Switzerland?

The 3-criteria HDI based on life expectancy, TWO education indicators and GDP per capita which can't tell us nothing about "details" like the women's rights or the freedom of press and speech?

Or the OECD which according to steveromagnino is an exclusive club of fully developed first world countries while all that it is in reality is merely one of the countless organizations for the economic cooperation and (mutual) development with members like Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary?

These are your "fairly acceptable measures"??

I'd venture that gender equality in Japan is also an issue by western standards but why have they made the grade? What was the difference there? How different are they really compared to South Korea? Maybe the truth is they have become so economically important that the hypocrasy of denial was just too obvious for other less developed 1st world countries?

You don't have to VENTURE, I have given you the address of the place where you can research and study what's the actual situation of the country.

www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/index.html

Are you here just to waste my time or do you think that the task is above you and you are then waiting for steveromagnino and one of his misread, misunderstood and completely out of context " fairly acceptable measures" to show us that THE authority on the matter is talking rubbish?

What disturbs me about your position is that you think western culture and social standards are what makes them superior to eastern countries, and that eastern countries have to somehow change and adapt and live up to these western standards before they are deemed to be 1st world, otherwise, they are forever in NIC purgatory. [...] sorry for not being PC but you are a cultural chauvanist.

This kind of stuff is part of what I have been studying in a past life and whenever I get into this kind of discussion I usually get banned because most people can't stand honest and solidly argued truths

Which culture the values and principles at the base of the UN Division for the Advancement of Women and the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women stem from?

South Korea? Thailand? Saudi Arabia?

Which countries are actively pressing the others (and them themselves) to uphold and put into practice the principle of women's equality and women's rights?

South Korea? Thailand? Saudi Arabia?

Which culture has produced the "Universal" Declaration of the Human Rights?

South Korea? Thailand? Saudi Arabia?

Sorry for not being "PC" but you are an ignorant blind man.

nevermind that many of these eastern countries make countries like italy look absolutely backward.

Nevermind that you haven't been able to give me examples.

i have friends from south korea, singapore, hong kong, taiwan who would like to visit europe but would never want to live there.

And let me guess, they have never set foot here, right?

Do we see a pattern?

why? show them how equal you treat women, how much maternity leave they get paid by the state, how few hours they have to work, how fairly treated should they end up in court. do you think they will be impressed? people i know from these countries do not feel the least bit inferior to old european so called "1st world" cultures, in fact they would be downright amused to read your feeble attempt to hang on to your imagined measures of superiority.

Oh... I assure you, I don't have any problem believing that they would be "downright amused" by concepts like women's rights and women's equality.

Ah, and the fact that you call them "imagined measures of superiority"... Haven't you called me a "cultural chauvinist"? You look a lot like a male chauvinist to me.

P.S. Are there, amongst your South Korean, Singaporean, Cantonese and Taiwanese friends, many lower income females..?

[BAF]

interesting Japanese ruling. so what makes Japan a 1st world country according to BAF? according to BAF, Japan is a 1st world country because they have shown that they are able to "mix" their culture with enough "westerness". puhlease.

When I told you that you can clean your ass with the 3 HDI's socio-economic criteria and that you have to look at the complex of hundreds of different socio-political indicators to begin to understand what distinguishes a NIC from a 1st world country YOU picked up the area of the women's rights (and you have been sounding like a d@mn feminist activist right until the moment I threw in your face the reality that it's exactly the other way around in regard to Italy and South Korea and then these "issues" have suddenly become "imagined measures of superiority"...).

So, following this approach of the women's rights perspective, go research and study (I have provided you the sources) the history of the changes that Japan has been seeing in this area...

The concept and the practice of women's equality and women's rights have originated in the West and are being assimilated by the Japan society under pressures that largely come from outside their own culture ie the West and "its" (Western founded, Western inspired, Western supported and largely Western led) istitutions and organizations.

And exactly like this is something which has had a huge impact on the real life of millions of Japanese significantly changing them for the better (provided equality is a good thing for you), other Western inspired changes have had an impact on other aspects of the Japanese society, other Western inspired changes on the Japanese economic life and other Western inspired changes on the Japanese political life.

While I could mention thousands of such changes in Japan, South Korea, Thailand and Singapore, I am hard pressed to think of Japan inspired changes that have had significant impact, and have actually led to big changes in, our social, economic and political life and costumes.

I am hard pressed to think of South Korean inspired changes that have had significant impact, and have actually led to big changes in, our social, economic and political life and costumes.

I am hard pressed to think of Thai inspired changes that have had significant impact, and have actually led to big changes in, our social, economic and political life and costumes.

I am hard pressed to think of Singaporean inspired changes that have had significant impact, and have actually led to big changes in, our social, economic and political life and costumes.

[BAF]

I think the terminology is just a matter of PC semantics in most cases, except in places where using the term is actually a mistake, such as Singapore.

As you say in another post Singapore "is a developed, industralized, authoritarian country, and does not have a free press".

Until they resolve the latter two "minor details" (real and fully implemented democracy and freedom of speech and press, among the others) the label NIC (which entails the fact that Singapore is still a 3rd world socio-politically developing country) is more than appropriate.

Incidentally, it scores even worse than South Korea in the area of women's rights.

[BAF]

* I don't know as much about the other examples, except for Singapore and Japan. Singapore is a developed, industralized, authoritarian country, and does not have a free press. Japan recently had a ruling (several months ago), that a long-term, legal Korean resident of more than 30 years could not accept a promotion to a top nursing managerial post in Japan, because a Korean or foreigner could not exert that kind of authority over *higher-level Japanese employees.

This is the kind of things I was alluding to when I wrote earlier in the thread: "Certain aspects of today's Japan aren't much different from what they were before and from what the rest of Asia has always been. For example, look at their laws RE citizenship..."

Strange how thedude doesn't seem too well impressed by these all too typical "ancient eastern culture" traits that Japan manages to retain

[steveromagnino]

You asked me 3 questions, I answered them. Of course the last 2 questions wasted both our time since they were fairly pointless to ask (and if you read anything I wrote rather than just cutting it to pieces and only replying to the bits you want you would have seen that we were in agreement), but I answered them anyway.

So in return I will again ask you some questions which you still have not answered, and until you answer these two, I think we'll go round in circles again -

- why keep using outdated terminology when even the references you provide either don't use them or are missing them completely(e.g. 4th world) and instead use terms that are far easier to understand and which almost everyone on this thread has pointed out are more appropriate

- why do you claim that 'our way' (i.e. the western way I assume you mean) is the only way to wealth when Singapore and Korea have failed to adopt many of the socio/political steps needed to become developed and yet they have had no problems getting very wealthy, and actually outstrip many of the developed countries in wealth? What about the non-western ways of Japan that have led to significant wealth creation? What about the resource rich countries like Saudi and UAE? How can you claim that wealth is only possible through 'our way' when there are these examples showing that this system of equality, free press, democracy and so on may indeed make for a high scoring on a socio economic political scale, but that wealth is indeed possible without much development on the non economic points?

There is little point in copying and pasting yet again, because you already know all the points you've made on the first one and the second one... just answer is enough :-)

While I could mention thousands of such changes in Japan, South Korea, Thailand and Singapore, I am hard pressed to think of Japan inspired changes that have had significant impact, and have actually led to big changes in, our social, economic and political life and costumes.

Well obviously in economic terms, the rise of Japan has had a significant impact economically on the world, and has led to some major changes for workers - paticularly the Japanese approach to organised labour, management of staff and manufaturing methods (including robotics, total quality, improvement). This has had a profound impact on the many people working in manufacturing. After all, Japan is the world's second largest economy; logically that means it has a massive effect; just like the American economy has a massive effect on say New Zealand, whereas Italy has a very small effect.

Just picking one industry..automotive, has Japan had any economic impact and has this caused a profound change?

Consider Fiat for instance and the impact of Toyota on them. Look at GM or the other American car manufacturers today. Look at how many mechanics are needed to fix cars these days. Maybe you don't work in the manufacturing industry; just as well since there as been a fundamental change in the way cars are built, staff employed and virutally every successful car manufacturer these days is benchmarking against the Japanese way at Toyota. It is either that or die.

I could talk about Japanese technology, style, entertainment, consumer electronics, food, music and the impact on fashion our leisure time and our choice of how we dress and so on, but that would seem frivolous. Ask most kids thouh about Nintendo or playstation and I think you'll find that their life is significantly different as a result. I could talk about the impact of the Japanese economic power and how is has fundamentally changed tourism around the world (and especially in places in NZ) but again this is minor compared to the impact of the way Japanese have done business, have negotiated, have planned long term to develop core competencies in ways western businesses did not, have expanded (via MITI and kirritsu approaches) and have dominated many of the industries they have gone into to the point of affecting the existing players in major ways (e.g. electronics, cars, and so on). Korea have used aspects of the japanese economic model to grow in the same way.

If you were to condense the impact of the Japan dual economy export component into one concept it would be that they get the nitty gritty right, and this makes them frighteningly competitive. The impact of this is either to copy them, or die. Since all of the west's developed mechanisms tend to rest on someone paying for things, I'd say the impact of this and the way in which western companies have responded (usually copying) is huge. BTW how many people have been laid off from Fiat; every article I ever read about them all they ever talk about is lay offs.....

[steveromagnino]

I think you're missing the point. You don't go to a decent university simply to learn content and spew forth on exam papers. That's what high school is for. It's also meant to be about learning how to learn without being spoonfed, how to meet deadlines, how to be proactive, how to write with precision, clarity, good grammar and syntax etc., teamwork, and working under pressure and time constraints. Any decent university should enforce and instil these things in their students. I never went through with my accounting major because the knowledge I obtained through the minor is enough for me.

I'm seriously doubting the value of a NZ degree here after seeing you write volumes of theoretical diarrhoea. Don't forget, 69.96% of statistics are all made up.

Ah, the point I am making is not what I think is important, it is what an employer thinks is important, and until employers start valuing say a philosophy degree on par with a finance degree when hiring a financial analyst, then I stand by the point that the arts degree is less useful in getting a job using the contents of the degree.

In my case, I had 4 years to get a degree, any degree, and then I had to be earning decent money ASAP to support someone. So I did the degree that employers wanted to see as fast as I could, and got a job with it. Did I enjoy studying finance, law and marketing? Not really. Did I learn something? Absolutely. Did having the degree mean I did a better job when I was hired? definitely. Did I get the job as a result of what I studied? For sure. Would I have liked to study something else entirely for fun? Yes - and I had the chance to study music in USA, but had to turn it down in favour of being practical and chasing dollars.

Masters is indeed different, because I am doing it for enjoyment, and I am loving it.

None of this spouting comes from my degree however, even though NZ's education system is pretty bad, it isn't this bad! The spouting just comes from avoiding doing any work and a dislike of sweeping generalisations based on opinion/preference and passed off as facts from someone who is far more knowledgeble in a subject than me and should know better

[thedude]

BAF, let me start by putting things in the right context which i'm sure you know but choose to twist into a reality that suits you. I never said that women's rights is better in S Korea compared to Italy. I merely pointed out to you that certain Italian court judgements have raised issues including those involving women's rights in Italy.

The controversial nature of these court judgements served to undermine my impression of the Italian judicial system, as compared to the S Korean judicial system. The discussion on the judicial systems was the main subject in an exercise you proposed to me.

Whatever discussion we had subsequently regarding women's rights in Italy was in the context of me pointing out that women's rights was an issue in 1st world Italy as well, and you trying to convince me that it wasn't by trying to translate italian court transcripts.

Now, going back to post #67, you said :

Anyway, just to keep the discussion on a practical level suitable to a non-specialized message board: imagine to be involved in a foreign country in a serious matter like, say, a murder or a financial dispute which may see you losing all of your properties.

Without asking if you have ever lived in Italy and South Korea, would you rather be handled by the Italian police, Italian justice system and Italian laws or by the South Korean police, South Korean justice system and South Korean laws?

You obviously tried to keep the question simple and you even qualified your own question by placing no concern on whether i have ever lived in either country. I then explained to you my choice of S Korea in post #103, but you have since repeatedly tried to ridicule and disqualify my reasoned response on the grounds that i have not been to those 2 countries. Somehow i doubt you would have responded in the same way had i reasoned instead that yes, I would rather face the Italian justice system.

Continuing on, at the bottom of post #67, responding to my question on whether white countries have an edge in achieving 1st worldom, you say :

Of course not. The race and the color of the skin are not important, the culture is.

its obvious from this and other statements that you've made that i'm not wrong in saying you are a cultural chauvanist - that in your mind you really think that the application of western "social-political" factors are what separates the 1st world from the NICs.

my problem is not so much on whether western standards are applied, after all its good if everyone wants to join UN organisations that set common benchmarks that are based on western standards for the sake of achieving social development and they all work towards it. the world can only get better.

my problem lies with the way you stick to an out-moded categorisation of 1st to 4th world, but you are evasive on the issue of how an NIC crosses into 1st worldom. you allude to exhaustive lists of social-political measures, but really you only talk about human rights and women's rights. you focus on these 2 areas because you know here is where you have the richest ammunition to keep those NICs where they are, while ignoring other equally valid measures in the economic and developmental realm. you shield your 1st world countries from scrutiny while you disqualify areas of comparison where they are clearly behind.

this is a convenient way for you to hang on to your 1st to 4th world categoristion but in reality it doesn't exist anymore. there is really no strict measure on how a developing country transcends into a developed country.

[zzap]

BAF for sure manages to entice people into lengthy replies and wasting more time.

I simply ignore the troll now.

BAF for sure manages to entice people into lengthy replies and wasting more time.

I simply ignore the troll now. :D

BAF for sure manages to entice people into lengthy replies and wasting more time.

I simply ignore the troll now. :D

[steveromagnino]

BAF for sure manages to entice people into lengthy replies and wasting more time.

I simply ignore the troll now.

Well, I suppose I could look at it this way, but some of what he has said is very useful and appropriate food for thought. I can admit with pride that there are many things in the world I know nothing about, and political science is one of them.

Most other academics or experts in their fields, even rocket scientists, (such as the guy I am meeting this weekend, who has held a speed record with the X15 rocket plane he designed for over 30 years) really enjoy sharing as much as they know about something in a surprisingly humble and easy to understand way.

Perhaps political science is an exceptionally difficult subject to grasp and perhaps unlike rocket science it is too difficult for someone like me to have explained to them, that certainly is possible.

HOwever, one should never consider giving the gift of knowledge to another as a waste of time, the value of providing information free can be priceless, and the links and some concepts that have been provided in this thread are really helpful in understanding parts of the world I have not had the chance to learn about previously. Thanks to many people including Kat, BAF, TheDude, peaceblondie, ZZap and others for that.

However, belittling others and lack of logic in an effort to put forward a point of view (whether it is true or not) serves little purpose :

- unwillingness to define terms or to use relevant terms (the first step of any proper debate)

- ad hominem attacks (references to analytical, yacht design etc abilities, calling theDude a tit)

- strawman arguments (e.g. questioning wikipedia as a source, but not the content)

- Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - for non latin speakers = confusing cause and effect (e.g. just because many western countries are wealthy, it does not mean the only way to wealth is the western way)

- various bait and switches (failing to answer questions posed and introducing pointless questions for me to reply to)

on an unrelated subject, so we can go out with a bang and an unrelated conversation:

Moderator: So Mr. Arafat, are you willing to disarm Hamas & Islamic Jihad?

Arafat: The Israelis want to kill me! They are causing all the problems! We want peace, but the Israelis don't!

Moderator: That's fine Mr. Arafat, but are you willing to disarm Hamas & Islamic Jihad?

Arafat: Why don't you ask the Israelis if they will stop their terrorism against our people? Why don't you ask them that?

Moderator: Mr. Arafat you seem to be ignoring my question.

Arafat: Are you questioning me? Do you know who I am? I am general Arafat! This interview is over!

I think this topic has run its course.

Edited March 3, 2006 by steveromagnino

[BAF]

Most other academics or experts in their fields, even rocket scientists, (such as the guy I am meeting this weekend, who has held a speed record with the X15 rocket plane he designed for over 30 years) really enjoy sharing as much as they know about something in a surprisingly humble and easy to understand way.

Perhaps political science is an exceptionally difficult subject to grasp and perhaps unlike rocket science it is too difficult for someone like me to have explained to them, that certainly is possible.

Perhaps that rocket scientist friend of yours is not trying to explain rocket science to you over an online message board and perhaps you are actually listening to him and following his arguments and his logical line of reasoning instead of trying to prove him wrong (on something you admittedly know nothing about) coming up with misread, misunderstood, inconsequential stuff you "discover" in random web searches...

I think this topic has run its course.

And that's really the only thing we can agree on, this thread has reminded me why I rarely post on public message boards.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you have learned something. What it may actually be, that you have learned, is what scares me

Ciao

[steveromagnino]

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you have learned something. What it may actually be, that you have learned, is what scares me

Ciao

Sadly, i don't think they will let me run the UN for a little while yet, or teach political science so I think you can sleep a little easier for now

[Ling Kae]

I think with this military coup it clearly shows Thailand is definitely still a 3rd. world country.

"Australia, New Zealand, the United States and the European Union have all condemned the coup and called for a return to democracy."

Wednesday September 20, 06:54 PM aap

[pop_corn]

Yes it is from a 3rd world..

in every sense i think ..