Is An Official, Like A Police, Required To Id On Request ?

[poanoi]

Is an official, like a police, required to ID himself on my request ?

thanks

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Yes, but then they're allowed to have the requesting person shot in the back of the head and the body disposed of at the nearest pig farm.

Oh wait they can do that anyway.

OK seriously - you must be joking. Even if such laws or "rights" existed here on paper that has no bearing on the ground in reality, where all that counts is real power.

Only a person senior/superior to anyone in Thailand has the authority to compel someone to do something.

In practice, ordinary people have no rights at all over those above them.

Stop your dreaming that there is any dependable rule of law here, not for locals and certainly foreigners are the very bottom of the barrel unless wealthy or well-connected into the Thai power structures.

Such fantasies can be very dangerous.

[ThailandBert]

Yes, but then they're allowed to have the requesting person shot in the back of the head and the body disposed of at the nearest pig farm.

Oh wait they can do that anyway.

OK seriously - you must be joking. Even if such laws or "rights" existed here on paper that has no bearing on the ground in reality, where all that counts is real power.

Only a person senior/superior to anyone in Thailand has the authority to compel someone to do something.

In practice, ordinary people have no rights at all over those above them.

Stop your dreaming that there is any dependable rule of law here, not for locals and certainly foreigners are the very bottom of the barrel unless wealthy or well-connected into the Thai power structures.

Such fantasies can be very dangerous.

What total and utter B@llocks. All police have to show you ID when they want to ask you something and especially if they want to search you. You seem to have been reading too many Thai mafia postings I think ?

Poanoi if they refuse to show you any ID then simply tell them you want to go to the police station. They will either take you there or leave.

I have done it several times without any trouble.

[poanoi]

Thanks, but i really hope to get the written law source,

i will then print it out and carry with me.

And i know they really don't want to ID them-self,

i think they have been watching mafia movies too

[BigJohnnyBKK]

If there's any antagonism in the situation at all, better not to raise the stakes, just comply with whatever they want and wait to get legalistic on them when you're in a safer context with plenty of credible witnesses around, ideally not just fellow police.

[geriatrickid]

If there's any antagonism in the situation at all, better not to raise the stakes, just comply with whatever they want and wait to get legalistic on them when you're in a safer context with plenty of credible witnesses around, ideally not just fellow police.

Really? There was a scam a couple years ago at the BKK airport where people claiming to be customs officials or police were stopping people outside the terminal. The respective departments said that the tourists approached should ask to see identification and then if in doubt request that they go to the police or customs office inside the airport.

[JurgenG]

Thanks, but i really hope to get the written law source,

i will then print it out and carry with me.

And i know they really don't want to ID them-self,

i think they have been watching mafia movies too

Why do you feel the need to carry such a card with you ?

I don't think it will be of any use anyway. If you feel they abuse their position, you can always refuse to answer them and ask to go with them to the police station. But in this case you better be sure to have done nothing against the law, it can really backfire otherwise.

Edited November 5, 2012 by JurgenG

[Farma]

Once they produce a card do you know what it looks like and what the card is for? I hope you're fluent in reading Thai.

Government employees can carry a number of official cards. They all look the same.

The I.D. card is a laminated card about the size of a credit card. It has the persons details in Thai along with a colour head and shoulders photo of the holder in uniform plus a large red garuda stamp over the details.

Other official cards are warrant cards. They look the same as the I.D. card. Each card gives the holder authority to issue fines for offences specified on the card.

[poanoi]

You got some points,

i will need to refresh my poor reading skill,

and i already know i won't be driving again without a video camera

[Beetlejuice]

Yes, but then they're allowed to have the requesting person shot in the back of the head and the body disposed of at the nearest pig farm.

Oh wait they can do that anyway.

OK seriously - you must be joking. Even if such laws or "rights" existed here on paper that has no bearing on the ground in reality, where all that counts is real power.

Only a person senior/superior to anyone in Thailand has the authority to compel someone to do something.

In practice, ordinary people have no rights at all over those above them.

Stop your dreaming that there is any dependable rule of law here, not for locals and certainly foreigners are the very bottom of the barrel unless wealthy or well-connected into the Thai power structures.

Such fantasies can be very dangerous.

What total and utter B@llocks. All police have to show you ID when they want to ask you something and especially if they want to search you. You seem to have been reading too many Thai mafia postings I think ?

Poanoi if they refuse to show you any ID then simply tell them you want to go to the police station. They will either take you there or leave.

I have done it several times without any trouble.

Absolutely, I mean, what does that BigJohnnyBKK know anyway?

If ever the nice policeman pulls you over to the side or tries to question you, your first course of action should be to insist that before you help him with any inquiries, that he must show you his ID and if he refuses, remind him of the law and that you have rights, and if that fails, demand that he takes you to the police station without delay to have the matter thrashed out with his superiors.

Believe me you’re go far. Not sure how far? But probably to a nice little green valley somewhere within the twilight zone.

You could mention that you have relatives in high places, which may obtain you a complimentary brutal beating excemption certificate and a get out of jail free card?

Edited November 5, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[roamer]

I tend to follow the views of William S Burroughs on this one;

" A functioning police state needs no police "

Therefore if you tell me your a cop, you are a cop.

Provided you show me your gun, as I ain't ever seen a Thai cop without one.

And if you show me your gun, I will accept that as id.

[bangkokburning]

Argh...

Leave Thailand

Kill yourself

Problem solved...

+2 for the Burroughs quote despite it not really relating.

Edited November 5, 2012 by bangkokburning

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I completely agree that most of your encounters with police in Thailand will be no problem.

My point is simply to caution those that think citizens have rights here as we're used to back home could easily find that an attitude of confrontation will create or escalate a problem, and in the end they don't really have recourse. As guests here most of us have even fewer rights or resources if the cops want to exert their authority, in the end they can do so at will.

Most of the time they will bend over backwards to be reasonable and show the guest that Thailand is a civilized and friendly country. But there are also individuals and situations where you could get yourself into some very serious trouble, and standing up for your "rights" will not be the strategic tactic it might be back home.

[roamer]

Argh...

Leave Thailand

Kill yourself

Problem solved...

+2 for the Burroughs quote despite it not really relating.

Yeah I know, but I've always admired the quote and was determined to use it sometime.

[chiangmaikelly]

Didn't Victor Bout say that about show me your card stuff I mean?

[Tywais]

Even if he shows you one there are no guarantees, he could be your local taxi driver ...

Police on surveillance for drug users and dealers in Banglamung instead arrested a former Bangkok taxi driver who was carrying fake ID showing him to be a police officer. The man said he was pretending to be a police officer to scare a loan shark bothering his mother.

Pattayadailynews

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I tend to follow the views of William S Burroughs on this one;

" A functioning police state needs no police "

I was talking to a taxi driver in Singapore about how tightly buttoned up the place is, comparing it to Thailand, and he responded, I'm actually a police officer, and so are all the men in my family, most of our neighbors too. Apparently some sort of civilian deputy, like some countries have military "in the reserves".

He said if I were to ask him say where to find a young girl or buy drugs, he'd have the authority to arrest me and book me downtown. And that he'd do it to, no hope of buying him off no matter how rich I was.

Now that's "law & order".

I suppose many here would think this a positive thing, but me it makes me shudder.

[carra]

In 7 years I have never been approached by one in plain clothes so it has never really been an issue.

When approached when walking by one in uniform I always speak first and ask why they have stopped me, same when driving. I always get my phone out and look like I am about to call someone when asking this question. I then ask which station they are from.

i find it best to put them on the back foot a little by asking many questions, politely. If the conversation remains polite and they can explain why they want to question me/search me then I have no problem with it. If they start to get aggressive I tell them I will call a friend at a certain police station, senior officer, to ask if what they are doing is legal (I don't say he will tell them to let me go etc, just to check the legality of their actions to avoid more conflict). At this point I normally find I am thanked for my time and told to leave.

I have never had it turn ugly, remaining calm and polite is the way to do it, at the end of the day the ones stopping you may be of the lesser spotted honest variety that are just doing their job and politeness could lead to them just doing their duty and letting you go with a polite salute and a thank you.

[chiangmaikelly]

I tend to follow the views of William S Burroughs on this one;

" A functioning police state needs no police "

I was talking to a taxi driver in Singapore about how tightly buttoned up the place is, comparing it to Thailand, and he responded, I'm actually a police officer, and so are all the men in my family, most of our neighbors too. Apparently some sort of civilian deputy, like some countries have military "in the reserves".

He said if I were to ask him say where to find a young girl or buy drugs, he'd have the authority to arrest me and book me downtown. And that he'd do it to, no hope of buying him off no matter how rich I was.

Now that's "law & order".

I suppose many here would think this a positive thing, but me it makes me shudder.

I think the majority of Thai Visa members especially the ones who post in the Pattaya news threads and don't live in Pattaya.

[jaideeguy]

A week ago the Thai wife called me outside where she was sitting with 2 plain clothed men who said they were with the local police in our village area. Their car was also not marked. Thru my wife, they said they were doing a 'survey' to get a census of the falangs in their area and requested that I drop a copy of my passport off at my convenience to the main office. At no time did they offer ID's and I didn't ask, but did ask the wife to call our local puuyai baan and he confirmed that they were cops and just doing their job.

I do hope that the question by the OP does get an official or knowledgeable answer for possible future situations.

Also, I wonder if the cops need a search warrant to enter and search your house.....not that I have anything to hide.

I would like to know what my rights are here.......

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I think the majority of Thai Visa members especially the ones who post in the Pattaya news threads and don't live in Pattaya.

Sorry I have no idea what you intended to mean by this, perhaps try re-phrasing it?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I do hope that the question by the OP does get an official or knowledgeable answer for possible future situations.

Also, I wonder if the cops need a search warrant to enter and search your house.....not that I have anything to hide.

I would like to know what my rights are here.......

And please understand my point - no matter what your "rights" might be in theory based on some piece of paper, that has little relevance here in reality unless you've got the pre-requisite money and/or connections to ensure they're granted to you. Otherwise your "rights" are no more or less than the guys with the guns want to grant you in that situation.

You might think that ultimately your embassy has your back, but that's only after the fact and again only if the overworked staff there can be bothered with your case.

Back home even a heroin dealer buggering children will find powerful people willing to stick up for them simply to ensure preservation of the system's civil rights. Whereas here everyone's perfectly happy to let such a monster be quietly buried out the back no questions asked.

The problem of course comes when you're caught in the middle ground, and here it's just a question of whose ox is getting gored, who's got the bigger stick at the time.

Fortunately most of the time we can rely on the basic human civility and decency of the people involved. But when that's not the case, the letter of the law is no protection.

[carra]

Agreed BigJohnny, some people her get confused between their actual rights and reality.

Whatever the legal rights of authority actually are here that bares no relevance in the real world and the day to day activities, and even having the relevant law on a piece of paper will do you no favours.

Like I say in my post, be polite but be firm, ask questions, show you are no novice or push over, always remain polite though and friendly, ask if you can come to the police station if they persist and tell them you want to make sure someone meets you there to over see what they are doing.

I was a policeman in the UK, and when I stopped people it was hard to be difficult with friendly people, however it was easy to be difficult with the angry people. I guess Thai police are just the same in this respect.

i learned something very early, be nice to everyone as the person you are dealing with may be nice, and if you start off aggressive it is very hard to back pedal, but it is easy to go from nice to aggressive should the need arise. Sometimes a smile and a few polite words will do it.

[mogandave]

If they have a phony uniform, would they not have phony ID?

Would anyone have any idea if the ID were authentic or not?

Seems like one be just chancing to piss them off for no good reason. Better to just snap a photo...

[lackerbandman]

after 6 years of coming to this country i still have trouble telling the difference between some security with big guns and the cops ,same with all the different vehicles with red flashers ..

[edwinchester]

I tend to follow the views of William S Burroughs on this one;

" A functioning police state needs no police "

I was talking to a taxi driver in Singapore about how tightly buttoned up the place is, comparing it to Thailand, and he responded, I'm actually a police officer, and so are all the men in my family, most of our neighbors too. Apparently some sort of civilian deputy, like some countries have military "in the reserves".

He said if I were to ask him say where to find a young girl or buy drugs, he'd have the authority to arrest me and book me downtown. And that he'd do it to, no hope of buying him off no matter how rich I was.

Now that's "law & order".

I suppose many here would think this a positive thing, but me it makes me shudder.

It makes you shudder that the police in Singapore actually go after drug dealers and paedophiles rather than their Thai counterparts who are most likely dealing in both?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

It makes you shudder that the police in Singapore actually go after drug dealers and paedophiles rather than their Thai counterparts who are most likely dealing in both?

Extreme examples, but yes, I personally think that level of government control over people's activities turns much too easily into fascist dictatorship, and then it's too late for the citizens to be able to revolt. I'd much rather live in a society with dangerous levels of criminal activity if that's a necessary price to pay for a nicely ineffective government.

But that's me, YMMV.

[edwinchester]

It makes you shudder that the police in Singapore actually go after drug dealers and paedophiles rather than their Thai counterparts who are most likely dealing in both?

Extreme examples, but yes, I personally think that level of government control over people's activities turns much too easily into fascist dictatorship, and then it's too late for the citizens to be able to revolt. I'd much rather live in a society with dangerous levels of criminal activity if that's a necessary price to pay for a nicely ineffective government.

But that's me, YMMV.

Interesting answer but having been a victim of police drug dealing scum here in Thailand I'd much rather a professional police force properly rewarded for doing their jobs to the law.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Interesting answer but having been a victim of police drug dealing scum here in Thailand I'd much rather a professional police force properly rewarded for doing their jobs to the law.

My point was also more along the lines of having all the local citizens that closely interwoven with officialdom.

And I'd have much less of a problem with it in a country with an effective democratic system, my perception of the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland for example, where it's unlikely a truly oppressive government could ever take over.

But put the fundamental corruption and inherent fascism of America together with that kind of efficiency and, well it makes my skin crawl personally.

I don't think Thailand's ever going to have the latter problem though, sure the BiB can be nasty but can't see them getting too systematic about it <g>

[barefoot1988]

It makes you shudder that the police in Singapore actually go after drug dealers and paedophiles rather than their Thai counterparts who are most likely dealing in both?

Extreme examples, but yes, I personally think that level of government control over people's activities turns much too easily into fascist dictatorship, and then it's too late for the citizens to be able to revolt. I'd much rather live in a society with dangerous levels of criminal activity if that's a necessary price to pay for a nicely ineffective government.

But that's me, YMMV.

i don't get it. i do know singapore is generally a pretty tied up place but what have the example of a police officer arresting a man seeking young girls and drugs got to do with government control and dictatorship?

i think it will makes me shudder more if a police officer doesn't do anything about it.