Moral Dilemma? Or Not?

[srisatch]

What would you do?

My brother went to a branch of Kasikorn Bank in Bangkok. He gave them £1500 in Travellers Cheques.

The bank gave him 300,000 or so Baht. Now the bank is ringing him every half an hour saying they want the money back and when is he going to the bank? First they said they were sending the police, then they said the bank teller had two kids, now they have got the sweet lady on the phone. They say it is his fault not theirs!! He is inclined to give the money back. As he says, it is not his money. He asked the bank to make a small financial gesture in recognition of their mistake. No. He also said he wanted to be assured that the bank teller would no be sacked/blamed a the transaction should have been double checked. And he has asked for a letter confirming that he is ot at fault(During the transaction he said there was pandemonium in the bank-90 customers-staff running hither and thither and he was on the phone and then thought maybe he did give them £4500-which he had in his wallet!) He sad he would go to the bank in the morning. The bankkept ringing until 21.00 saying they were waiting! On the phone again at 08.30! Speakingf to his wfe trying to get her to bring them the money!

His friends say don't give them the money. What would you do?!

[Ijustwannateach]

I would hold out both for an apology for the trouble of going back, and yet another apology for what amounts to accusing him of robbery (his having the extra money being "his fault"). In this case I'd possibly want a lawyer's opinion and a signed document from the bank verifying they concede it is not "his fault." After this, I'd make sure I took all my business away from such a sorry bank.

"Steven"

[Noel]

For what it's worth, if it was me and I was absolutely sure I had only changed £1,500, I would go and give the money back.

Where is the moral dilemma?

[Khutan]

A couple of questions;

1. What does the receipt say, was it an incorrect rate/

2. For amounts like that a supervisor also cross checks the amount.

If I was your brother, I would be asking only to deal with the manager. The next time someone calls who is not the manager, tell them you will only speak to the manager.

If you talk to the manager, Your brother should say he has no idea of what the exchange rate was and that all he knows is the rate gtom GBP to THB is favourable.

It sounds like if the Manager is not calling that the Supervisor and the teller are trying to cover it up.

If he pays the money back or not is up to him and what this mab bring upon him.

[sierra01]

As Thai banks charge for absolutely everything tell them there is a 100/500/1000bt charge to cover administration costs!

I would think that legally he would probably have to return the money (any lawyers out there please comment), but I would make them sweat first. If they owed you the money do you think they would be quick to return it?

[bkkmadness]

I spose two things to look at here, the moral side and 'will you get caught or not?".

Will your brother get caught, they have your passport number/address right? Whats the legal impilcations here since it was the banks mistake?

The moral side is different I suppose. Will they really take the money from the bank teller who made the mistake? If not would your brother feel comfortable about taking the money?

The bank is using some very underhand techniques to get the money back, threats and emotional blackmail, I wouldn't give a sh1t about them but if it comes out of the bank tellers money its something different.

[sierra01]

I wouldn't give a sh1t about them but if it comes out of the bank tellers money its something different.

I was in a slightly similar position last year. I bought a washing machine from a large retail place in Lampang, and they gave me a free microwave with it. The next day I got a call from them that the salesman had made a mistake, the free offer had already finished. Basically I was told that if I didn't return it the salesman would have to foot the bill.

True or not I don't know, but I'd had previous dealings with the salesman and he was an Ok guy, so I returned it.

[bkkmadness]

It sounds like if the Manager is not calling that the Supervisor and the teller are trying to cover it up.

They was calling him up until 9.00 pm waiting on the money. I assume that the manager would have to know because he'd have to keep the bank open the extra hours to wait for the money.

Unless of course the manager was being kept completely out of the loop and they wanted the cash delivered elsewhere?

In fact as someone said earlier, shouldn't this amount have been double checked by someone? Why has the manager of the bank not been on the phone?

He also said he wanted to be assured that the bank teller would no be sacked/blamed as the transaction should have been double checked. And he has asked for a letter confirming that he is not at fault

With regards to these two points, what did they answer?

[The Dan Sai Kid]

For sure he should return the money. But, I thought in Thailand there was a law about what a reward should be - there were a couple of posts a while back about taxi drivers returning money and getting a mandatory reward - or something like that (I think it was something like 10%).

But, in the UK, if someone handed over money like that then there is not a whole heap that can be done after they leave the shop... (mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards)

[Artisan]

Why didn't he spot the error the moment that the bank clerk handed him the money?

Surely he would have checked it!!!

There is absolutely no moral dilemma here and, like elsewhere in the world, one cannot profit by an honest mistake.......(except Toxin that is because he still claims that he made an "honest mistake" at the time of his asset concealment enquiry!!!!)

But, in the UK, if someone handed over money like that then there is not a whole heap that can be done after they leave the shop... (mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards)

Yes they certainly can. See my previous post.

[frodo]

That's a tough call. Like other posters have mentioned, they should write a letter of apology to him as well and make it clear they were in error, not him. Though my experience last week is nothing like this, it is worth mentioning. I had went shopping at Robinsons, Future Park. After the clerk had rang up the items and swipped my debit card, she informed me that my card was not working. No big deal, I'll get some cash. After checking my balance, I found that the transaction did in fact go through and the amount, over 4,000baht had been deducted from my bank.

Returning to the clerk, she naturally accepted no resposnibility and beleive it or not, blamed me since it was my card. The bank was useless (Bangkok Bank). They did confirm that the purchase had been made, however, the clerk refused to speak with the bank. The bank stated it MIGHT be possible for me to get my money back providing I had documentation to support my claim. Robinsons wouldn't give me anything of the sort, and I'm out over 4,000 baht. Naturally the Thai way was for nobody to take any responsibility and instead it was put on me.

I'm still ticked off at the lack of moral and ethic displayed. They will never admit they are wrong, even when the responsibility is clearly on both Robisons and Bangkok Bank. I'm just the customer.

IMHO, make them admit they were wrong, and get it in writing. Trust me, it will be worth framing since it would be a collectable. By the way, that experience is not the first of its kind, there have been others, but of different sorts.

[Artisan]

......it's all about that Asian thing isn't it------potential loss of face?

Edited February 9, 2006 by Artisan

[Patex]

What would you do?

My brother went to a branch of Kasikorn Bank in Bangkok. He gave them £1500 in Travellers Cheques.

The bank gave him 300,000 or so Baht. Now the bank is ringing him every half an hour saying they want the money back and when is he going to the bank? First they said they were sending the police, then they said the bank teller had two kids, now they have got the sweet lady on the phone. They say it is his fault not theirs!! He is inclined to give the money back. As he says, it is not his money. He asked the bank to make a small financial gesture in recognition of their mistake. No. He also said he wanted to be assured that the bank teller would no be sacked/blamed a the transaction should have been double checked. And he has asked for a letter confirming that he is ot at fault(During the transaction he said there was pandemonium in the bank-90 customers-staff running hither and thither and he was on the phone and then thought maybe he did give them £4500-which he had in his wallet!) He sad he would go to the bank in the morning. The bankkept ringing until 21.00 saying they were waiting! On the phone again at 08.30! Speakingf to his wfe trying to get her to bring them the money!

His friends say don't give them the money. What would you do?!

Why tf,

He don't gave it back in the very first moment? Or mentioned there must be a mistake about the amount of money?? It is not his money were is the dilemma???

Go to Bangkok Post or Thai Rat etc and take a Journalist and a Photographer with you/your brother; be sure it will be at the first,second or third page, don't forget to smile it is not your money you are going to give back!

The bank tellers vocational future is already uncertain...

Edited February 9, 2006 by Patex

[steveromagnino]

......it's all about that Asian thing isn't it------potential loss of face?

er...perhaps although actually not really in the mistake, but possibly it hasn't been handled well, which is perhaps not exclusive to Asia, but certainly prevalent in Thai banks. Banks actually make these sorts of errors quite often (almost never, but more often than you woudl think!)

Technically, perhaps the Bank cannot claw back the money in quite the same way as depositing the wrong amount in your account then suing you to get it back, as I am not sure that the person has a contract with the bank; then again my guessing is that by accepting the money, they are probably also accepting the terms and conditions of the transaction with the bank which also means that THEY not the bank are probably responsible for the accuracy of the bank. So there probably is a contract.

Crazy, but exactly the same as when the bank gives out $20 instead of $10 by accident from an ATM; the account holder is liable, and when I worked for a bank(not here in THailand), we would not offer any compensation, and if it resulted in someone ended up overdrawn we would charge them unauthorised unsecured OD fees. I am not sure of the law in this situation in Thailand with travellers checks, so I could be wrong. Bank I worked for totally view mistakes like this as the customer ripping off the bank at worst, and them being given more money than they asked for, but it being their responsibility to return it at best.

I know the Casino did the same money exchange sort of mistake in NZ, and chased the guy down; Swiss francs vs. some pacific Island francs I think it was and had overpaid about 20 times more than they should have. The guy was made to return it by the police.

Knowing the phone number, I am sure the bank now knows enough to get the police involved. It is and should not be a moral dilemma. There is no doubt the money should be returned.

I do understand the issue of being well treated in doing so. The bank may see this as bordering on theft, but the recipient probably sees it as their mistake. perhaps someone a third party can gently explain to the bank that if they show some gratitude this person will be happy to return the funds ASAP.

Leaving it could result in accusations of theft, and if it could be shown that the recipient should have known they were receiving the wrong amount, it might even stick. not worth it.

Edited February 9, 2006 by steveromagnino

[britmaveric]

Give the dosh back - the teller is one who is bearing the brunt here. If the teller wouldnt get sack or dosh garnished from their wages you might have smth to think about. I wouldn't feel right about regardless, dosh would be returned as soon as I realized mistake was made.

[srisatch]

He has a receipt from the bank-signed and stamped that he gave them £4500

The bank made a mistake....and it was not double checked..which both I and he find unbelievable...but apparently this branch of Kasikorn is notorious for incompetence...according to Kasikorn themselves!!

Some people say there is no dilemma. He does not agree. He thinks the bank is at fault.

1 They accuse him of being at fault

2. The money was transferred to his bank account so he never had the cash in hand...Actually when he signed the deposit slip he said to the teller 'this is wrong' ad ther teller agreed and said he should have added the cash and cheque transactions togethe ie 400,000B!! Anyway if he had not sent ther money to an account they could never have found him!! So lucky bank!!

3. He thinks the bank has put a guy on the exchange desk whoi cannot speak/read English...so who is to blame....he thinks the guy thought £500 was 1500!!

4. Sure he was not concentrating and he had been unsure of how much to change...the rate has gone down substantially thanks to Toxin's playing with the bank/exchange rate

5. He will almost certainly give the money back--he is a good guy...but he is in no hurry ...and he would be happier if the bank came to with some sort of recognition of the problems they caused him!!

[Tippaporn]

I second Brit. Just give the money back. I think this is a very simple issue. Plain and simple, it's not your brother's money, period, end.

If we were looking for a way to keep some of the money (if not all) then it's easy to complicate the issue by throwing in a bunch of other factors and finding a way to justify them. Up to the bank as to whether or not they want to reimburse you for your troubles, give you a 10% share, whatever.

If you lent someone money and gave them a larger bill than you thought you had what would you expect then? Put the shoe on the other foot and your answers might be quite different.

No dilemma here, moral or otherwise, IMHO.

[GuestHouse]

Clearly the money should be returned.

However, I would insist on a signed letter stating that the error occurred as a result of the bank's failings - or at least that the bank accepts the customer has not acceted illegally.

The last thing you want is to arrested and charged with theft when you return the money.

I would find out where the nearest regional branch is and make an appoitment to speak to the manager there.

[bendix]

i agree with the guys who said there is no moral dilemma and to see the guy who benefited (via the OP) clutching at straws and holding out for letters / rewards etc is not good for farang's reputation in Thailand. I also find it hard to believe he didnt know he was overpaid.

There is only one thing to do.

And it's the right thing. You know what that is.

Packaging it up as a 'moral dilemma' or otherwise smacks of self-justification to me.

[chownah]

I was in a similar dilemma. After returning from a trip to Thailand I told a friend at work about the people out front of the shows in Patpong with printed up lists of the clever things that the women could do with a particular member of their anatomy....well, a year later as I was getting ready for another trip to Asia my friend asked if I could get one of the lists for him....so I said if I had time I'd go try....I did just that and found one guy who agreed to sell me his list for 200 baht so I paid him and put the list (laminated in plastic...full size piece of typing paper...lots of clever things listed) in my bag and headed off to see if I could score another list from another show thinking that I might start a collection....when....the guy who had minutes before sold me the list caught up with me with a tourist police officer in tow. The police told me to give back the list...I told him it was my list now since he had sold it to me. He kept insisting that I give it back and finally offered to give me back my 200 baht....I told him I wanted 500 baht for it. About this time I noticed that they guy was starting to sweat and desperation was beginning to show in his manner.....he had really done the wrong thing by parting with his list and I could tell that he was in deep doo doo if he couldn't retrieve it so after "playing" with him a few moments more I agreed to sell it back for the original 200 baht. I did score another list at another show which I presented to my delighted friend upon returning stateside.

Well, I thought it was similar even if you don't.

There might be one dissimilarity in that my post is 100% the truth.

Edited February 9, 2006 by chownah

[mogoso]

Give the dosh back - the teller is one who is bearing the brunt here. If the teller wouldnt get sack or dosh garnished from their wages you might have smth to think about. I wouldn't feel right about regardless, dosh would be returned as soon as I realized mistake was made.

The longer the money is held, the harder it goes on the teller. Where he might've kept his job at first, the worse it'll go on him. Theres no morality in keeping something thats not yours, just because someone made a mistake. When notified the brother should've said be right in. Or if he counted it and did the math, he should've said no theres a mistake. Should the bank been shorting him, he'd point it out muy pronto. I think he thought he'd simply walk away with the extra money, the bank to lose.

[Tippaporn]

<snip>

There might be one dissimilarity in that my post is 100% the truth.

Ouch!!

[britmaveric]

chownah - why did the lad want the menu back so badly? Obviously could have printed another quite easily/laminated it.

[simon43]

I had a somewhat similar situation with Bangkok Bank in Silom road. I regularly send money from the UK to my account. I sent 200,000 baht but they double-credited it. I wasn't sure what my original balance was and didn't bother checking my bank book. so I then start to spend this 400,000 baht..

Some time later, the bank spots the error and contacts me on a Friday afternoon. 'Please authorise us to debit 200,000 baht from your account'. No I say, not now, because that will leave me short on a friday night, with no money for the weekend...

Well, I was in the bank for hours, whilst they tried to get me to sign the debit authorisation. I refused and said they should wait a few days until i sent more funds from the UK.

Happily, sense provailed and they agreed. But after they agreed to me, the manager got up and walked away without a word..total loss of face.

I'm sorry to say that I sometimes feel that Asian people overdo the loss of face issue. It was a mistake on both sides and I readily owned up to my laziness at checking my bank balance. But with the bank it was fight tooth and nail to get them to concede anything.

Simon

[zzap]

I'd take the matter to the regional office to complain about the incompetence and inconvenience this bank has caused you, specially since this branch has a 'reputation' already.

[Tippaporn]

I'd take the matter to the regional office to complain about the incompetence and inconvenience this bank has caused you, specially since this branch has a 'reputation' already.

I'd say most of the so-called trouble is self created.

[GuestHouse]

Oh and I'd revel in the thought of the Thai bank staff squirming under a sittuation of their own making while unable to do anything about it because of their own childish attachment to 'Face'.

There are not many times in life we get one over on the bank and if you stay in Thailand long enough you will eventually be on the wrong end of problems caused by 'Face'.

So enjoy it while you can.

[raybkk]

He has a receipt from the bank-signed and stamped that he gave them £4500

The bank made a mistake....and it was not double checked..which both I and he find unbelievable...but apparently this branch of Kasikorn is notorious for incompetence...according to Kasikorn themselves!!

Some people say there is no dilemma. He does not agree. He thinks the bank is at fault.

1 They accuse him of being at fault

2. The money was transferred to his bank account so he never had the cash in hand...Actually when he signed the deposit slip he said to the teller 'this is wrong' ad ther teller agreed and said he should have added the cash and cheque transactions togethe ie 400,000B!! Anyway if he had not sent ther money to an account they could never have found him!! So lucky bank!!

3. He thinks the bank has put a guy on the exchange desk whoi cannot speak/read English...so who is to blame....he thinks the guy thought £500 was 1500!!

4. Sure he was not concentrating and he had been unsure of how much to change...the rate has gone down substantially thanks to Toxin's playing with the bank/exchange rate

5. He will almost certainly give the money back--he is a good guy...but he is in no hurry ...and he would be happier if the bank came to with some sort of recognition of the problems they caused him!!

Wanna keep it?

Go to the police station and report that you have left a back with cash in the Taxi and you dont remember the license number.

The bank..... as the mistake was made by them they will have to turn the difference between exchange into a personal loan. Either paid by you or by the one that signed on the exchange bill.

Wanna have a problem free holiday without looking over your shoulders and enjoying a great time than just go back to the bank with the tourist police and get a letter direct from the bank that there will be no further charges.

[srisatch]

Interesting set of comments!!

Remember those messages in shops..'Please check your change as mistakes cannot be rectified later'?

He checked with his bank in the UK what would be the position if it had happened there. Bank said of course they would ask for the money back but would also clearly make a payment in recognition of their mistake. Theft?? No, no, only in LOS would such a thing be construed as the customer stealing.

Do you always count your money from the ATM or the bank, or even the shop? I doubt it...and as I said he never had the cash..went straight into the bank account.....moral, too....don't talk on the phone while doing bank transactions!! Or a lot of other things!

[Mighty Mouse]

I'm surprised that the OP posted his question.

You can't justify theft no matter how hard you try.

Trying to make a financial gain over somebody's innocent mistake, is theft. Fraud would cover the offence.

Return the money to its rightful owner. Get a receipt from the bank. Nothing else required.

...........yes there is.........you should apologise to the bank for your stubborness and pig headedness.