Changing Extended "visa Waiver" Tourist Visa To Non-B - Is It Possible?

[tommet]

Hi, I've searched and read through the relevant threads on this topic but can't get a fix on the actual answer. Any advice much appreciated.

About a month ago I did a border run at Aranyapathet and got a 15 day "visa waiver" entry (UK passport). A few days later I visited my local immigration and extended it by 60 days on the basis of marriage to a Thai. I have done this a few times now.

Now I have a firm job offer (not teaching) and need to change from a tourist/waiver entry to a non-imm-B visa.

While the usual advice is to go to a neighbouring country (ie Laos) to get a fresh non-imm-B visa at the consulate, I have read that it is possible to change a tourist visa to a non-B visa at immigration in Bangkok. This would surely be cheaper and easier than hanging around in Laos for a couple of days to get a visa.

HOWEVER - some threads suggest it is not possible to change a 15 day "visa waiver" (aka "visa on arrival, although that is something else) to a non--B in this way.

Unfortunately I can't find any authorative explanation for why this would be so.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Are the "visa waiver" entries not real tourist visas, and subject to special rules?

In particular I'm wondering if, now that I have a 60 day extension to my 15-day "visa waiver" stamp, my current entry visa might qualify as a "real" tourist visa that could be changed in-country?

I also read a suggestion that this sort of visa change is only possible at Chaeng Wattana immigration HQ in Bangkok, is that known to be the case?

EDIT: please see this link for an overview of the process (for those who may not believe it can be done): http://integrity-legal.com/legal-blog/thailand-business/changing-thai-visa-status-in-the-kingdom-of-thailand/

Edited November 13, 2012 by tommet

[Mario2008]

Technically it is possible, in practise you will not have enough time to get the work permit or wp3 form to convert. But that also depends on the job. For a teacher in a government school the mills will work faster than for a job with a normal company.

[tommet]

Thanks - my new employer is arranging the WP3 application in the next few days, since I believe I need it for my non-B application in Laos anyway.

And I still have 45 days left on my current visa, while the minimum required is said to be 21 days.

What I'm perplexed about is the suggestion that visa waiver entries do not qualify for this sort of change. I can't find any such rule, and I wonder if my extended-by-marriage visa would still be considered as a visa waiver entry.

[lopburi3]

The form used is a TM87 Application for Visa rather than the TM86 Application for change of visa when entry was visa exempt.

[tommet]

Ok, thanks, that's interesting - I had never seen mention of using the TM87 for this.

Unfortunately I'm now hearing from my new employer that they don't know about this change of visa process, so it is probably going to be easier to go with the flow (to Savanakhet) and get a fresh visa.

Edited November 13, 2012 by tommet

[digitalchromakey]

You might be ok to get the visa issued with a TM87 within Thailand providing your employer/you meet the all the criteriae for a One Year Extension of Permission to Stay under Section 2.1 of Police Order 777/2551.

Some Labour Depts do not accept the 60 day 'visiting wife' extension as valid to issue a WP, but if you are eligible get the special in country Non Immigrant 'B' this will be ok.

[tommet]

Thanks for that info. It seems I would qualify for the extension of stay, but my new employer isn't too keen on the process - "more difficult and more time".

Also the job is in Phuket, and from what I've read it sounds like only Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok will do the visa change, so that would mean more driving about.

So it's looking like a trip to Laos for me

[digitalchromakey]

Thanks for that info. It seems I would qualify for the extension of stay, but my new employer isn't too keen on the process - "more difficult and more time".

Also the job is in Phuket, and from what I've read it sounds like only Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok will do the visa change, so that would mean more driving about.

So it's looking like a trip to Laos for me

Phuket do accept TM 87s converting Visa Exempt Entries preceding Retirement Extensions, but haven't heard of any conversions in Phuket preceeding Employment Extensions.

You would however probably be better off getting a Non 'B' in Malaysia (closer to Phuket than Laos) then getting an extension based on your Marriage to a Thai - this is 100% doable in Phuket; with this route, if you stop work/change jobs you don't automatically lose your Extension.

For reference here are Phuket's Criteriae for a 2.1 Extension

Visa extension on the basis of employment 777 2551 Case 2.1t.pdf

.

[tommet]

Thanks. The job is in Phuket but I'm in Isan until we drive down next week, so the Savanakhet consultate is closer than KL right now.

I'd spotted that I would be better off with an extension based on marriage, so I will try to do that when the time for the extension comes.

[ubonjoe]

You should make a trip to Savannakhet or Vientiane and get a single entry non-o based upon marriage.That would be easier than doing a change of visa status since you are already in Isaan.

When you get the visa ask them to make an annotation that it is based upon marriage.

Make sure that your employer has a copy of your marriage certificate to turn in with your work permit application.

Then get an extension of stay based upon marriage. If your income is 40K or more from your job you could then use that by showing tax payments. They at one time wanted 3 months of tax payments before doing the extension but you could get a 60 day extension to give you more time.

[tommet]

You should make a trip to Savannakhet or Vientiane and get a single entry non-o based upon marriage.That would be easier than doing a change of visa status since you are already in Isaan.

When you get the visa ask them to make an annotation that it is based upon marriage.

Make sure that your employer has a copy of your marriage certificate to turn in with your work permit application.

So you're saying here that

1. I would need an non-O visa based on Marriage to get an extension based on marriage?

2. A work permit can be processed to someone with a non-O visa based on marriage?

3. Is such an annotation on a visa routine, or a "special task"?

Then get an extension of stay based upon marriage. If your income is 40K or more from your job you could then use that by showing tax payments. They at one time wanted 3 months of tax payments before doing the extension but you could get a 60 day extension to give you more time.

thanks for that info

[ubonjoe]

1. Rather than doing the the change of visa status it would be best to get the O visa first.

For the change of visa status to get an extension based upon marriage you would need to show you have the 40K income or 400K in the bank.

For the B visa change of status you would need the work permit application and etc. plus company documents.

2. Yes

3. My last (over 4 years ago) two visas from Savannakhet have all the info about my marriage including date and registration number at Amphoe. If not I am sure if you asked they would write it on the sticker.

Edited November 14, 2012 by ubonjoe

[tommet]

Understood, many thanks, very helpful information from all.

& so I drive for Laos in the morning, for my non-O.

[djbarry]

Don't u want to try Chaegwattana first??? u'd never know your luck. i changed a tourist visa to a non-B there a few years back...

Give it a shot. u've nothing to lose.

djbarry

[digitalchromakey]

1. Rather than doing the the change of visa status it would be best to get the O visa first.

For the change of visa status to get an extension based upon marriage you would need to show you have the 40K income or 400K in the bank.

For the B visa change of status you would need the work permit application and etc. plus company documents.

2. Yes

3. My last (over 4 years ago) two visas from Savannakhet have all the info about my marriage including date and registration number at Amphoe. If not I am sure if you asked they would write it on the sticker.

Sorry to differ...

1. Phuket Labour like to have Non 'B' Visas and have baulked in the past at Non 'O's - this would be a big risk, plus the 2.18 (Thai Spouse and working) Extension process at Phuket Immigration is straight forward with the correct paperwork if married with WP and a Non 'B' with income >40k pcm, note the Income Requirement is lower for most than with a 2.1 Extension (Employment).

2. See my comment above - it's not worth the risk at Phuket - plus why get a non 'O' if you can get a Non 'B'?

3. Again - do not recommend Non 'O' if the OP can get a Non 'B'

Edited November 14, 2012 by digitalchromakey

[tommet]

1. Rather than doing the the change of visa status it would be best to get the O visa first.

For the change of visa status to get an extension based upon marriage you would need to show you have the 40K income or 400K in the bank.

For the B visa change of status you would need the work permit application and etc. plus company documents.

2. Yes

3. My last (over 4 years ago) two visas from Savannakhet have all the info about my marriage including date and registration number at Amphoe. If not I am sure if you asked they would write it on the sticker.

Sorry to differ...

1. Phuket Labour like to have Non 'B' Visas and have baulked in the past at Non 'O's - this would be a big risk, plus the 2.18 (Thai Spouse and working) Extension process at Phuket Immigration is straight forward with the correct paperwork if married with WP and a Non 'B' with income >40k pcm, note the Income Requirement is lower for most than with a 2.1 Extension (Employment).

2. See my comment above - it's not worth the risk at Phuket - plus why get a non 'O' if you can get a Non 'B'?

3. Again - do not recommend Non 'O' if the OP can get a Non 'B'

My employers now seem confident that they can process a work permit with a non-O. Can you tell me more about Phuket Labour demanding a non-B for this?

Would they be within their rights to do so, when the national rules state otherwise? I can't find any accounts of this happening by searching the ThaiVisa forums & the rules seem to state only that a non-immigrant visa is required, it does not specify O or B.

The advantage of the non-O that I can see is that the application process is easier and I won't lose my extension if I lose my job.

Another poster suggested a run to Chaeng Wattana, but that's an extra 1000 k round trip if it doesn't work out.

Edited November 14, 2012 by tommet

[tommet]

Further to this question of what sort of visa Phuket wants for a work permit - a bit of searching leads to the Phuket provincial Employment office website, which reads (in parts):

ALIENS WHO ARE IN THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND WISH TO WORK IN THE KINGDOMMISTCOMPLY WITH THE FOLLOWING:

...

2.An alien who lives in the Kingdom of receives a non-immigrant VISA to live in the Kingdom can work in Thailand after having received a workpermit.

...

QUALIFICATIONS OF AN ALIEN ENTITLED TO APPLY FOR A WORK PERMIT:

1.Having residence in the Kingdom of having permission to stay in the Kingdom temporarily under immigration law (i.e not simply as a tourist of transittraveler)

link: http://119.63.84.110...lish/guide.html

So there's nothing there about insisting on a non-immB, which is encouraging. Also I read elsewhere than non-O is the classification used by NGO workers, who get a work permit based on that sort of visa, so it seems that an O must be a valid type visa for this purpose -

So hopefully I can forge a way through, but gratefully forewarned of such potential issues.

Edited November 14, 2012 by tommet

[digitalchromakey]

My employers now seem confident that they can process a work permit with a non-O. Can you tell me more about Phuket Labour demanding a non-B for this?

Would they be within their rights to do so, when the national rules state otherwise? I can't find any accounts of this happening by searching the ThaiVisa forums & the rules seem to state only that a non-immigrant visa is required, it does not specify O or B.

The advantage of the non-O that I can see is that the application process is easier and I won't lose my extension if I lose my job.

Another poster suggested a run to Chaeng Wattana, but that's an extra 1000 k round trip if it doesn't work out.

Phuket Labour arguably do not follow the cited guideline below as they currently will not accept certain types of extension, for example Case 2.24 (Visting Spouse).

Having residence in the Kingdom or having permission to stay in the Kingdom temporarily under immigration law (i.e not simply as a tourist of transit traveler.

.

If you have a non 'B' Visa Entryand obtain a Work Permit you can then apply for an Extension of Permission to Stay as being married to a Thai (National Police Order 777/2551 Case 2.18).

You will not lose this 2.18 (Thai Spouse with work) extension if you were to change/lose your job.

There are many examples of regional Labour Offices having differing readings of the regulations and this area is one area where there are reported variations of interpretation. .

To repeat, if you want to work get a Non 'B' - why get a Non 'O' if you can get a non B?

Your employer, if genuine, can easily get the necessary paperwork prepared for you to to apply for a Single Entry 90 Day Non Immigrant 'B' Visa in Laos; plus you can be 100% confident that the WP is already successfully filed in Phuket if you have the WP Receipt/Letter of Acceptance in your hand..

If you go down the Non 'O' route then your new employer may feel they can delay your WP Application to some later point - not a good idea.

Edited November 14, 2012 by digitalchromakey

[tommet]

My employers now seem confident that they can process a work permit with a non-O. Can you tell me more about Phuket Labour demanding a non-B for this?

Would they be within their rights to do so, when the national rules state otherwise? I can't find any accounts of this happening by searching the ThaiVisa forums & the rules seem to state only that a non-immigrant visa is required, it does not specify O or B.

The advantage of the non-O that I can see is that the application process is easier and I won't lose my extension if I lose my job.

Another poster suggested a run to Chaeng Wattana, but that's an extra 1000 k round trip if it doesn't work out.

Phuket Labour arguably do not follow the cited guideline below as they currently will not accept certain types of extension, for example Case 2.24 (Visting Spouse).

Having residence in the Kingdom or having permission to stay in the Kingdom temporarily under immigration law (i.e not simply as a tourist of transit traveler.

.

If you have a non 'B' Visa Entryand obtain a Work Permit you can then apply for an Extension of Permission to Stay as being married to a Thai (National Police Order 777/2551 Case 2.18).

You will not lose this 2.18 (Thai Spouse with work) extension if you were to change/lose your job.

There are many examples of regional Labour Offices having differing readings of the regulations and this area is one area where there are reported variations of interpretation. .

To repeat, if you want to work get a Non 'B' - why get a Non 'O' if you can get a non B?

Your employer, if genuine, can easily get the necessary paperwork prepared for you to to apply for a Single Entry 90 Day Non Immigrant 'B' Visa in Laos; plus you can be 100% confident that the WP is already successfully filed in Phuket if you have the WP Receipt/Letter of Acceptance in your hand..

If you go down the Non 'O' route then your new employer may feel they can delay your WP Application to some later point - not a good idea.

Getting a B visa is rather more complex than getting an O, so that's the main problem at this stage. Also because I am entitled to a non-O and it is sufficient unto the purpose.

I thank you for your warning but I am perplexed Phuket labour office would have the discretionary powers in the face of the national regulations and the fact that granting a work permit to O-visa holders by marriage is commonplace at other labour offices around the country, and at Bangkok headquarters.

My employers are valid and established in Phuket and their people say that an O visa will work. I doubt this is a scam to make me waste my time. If it is refused on this basis you say then I will access my regulated right to appeal, as detailed in the previous link - or if must, fly to Penang.

Labour arguably do not follow the cited guideline below as they currently will not accept certain types of extension, for example Case 2.24 (Visting Spouse)

They are not guidelines they are the regulations. And how do you know this, specifically? We seem to have gone from "sometimes baulk" to an outright prohibition in a few posts. What does "arguably" mean here - that the rest of the sentence may or may not be true?

Labour dept officials are not immigration police AFAIK and do not hold such discretionary powers, any more than a school teacher does.

I note that someother reported problems with O visa work permits at Phuket labour dept seem linked to the possibility that the non-O was due to a retirement, which is not/will not be the case in my case.

I have also been unable to find any first hand accounts in this forum or any other that what you say is happening at Phuket - specifically their blanket (and non-regulation) refusal to issue WP to qualified & sponsored holders of a non-O based on marriage. If it was a big problem I would expect to see at least one example.

Could you explain if you have any first hand experience of this? Have you tried in recent months to obtain a WP from Phuket on the basis on a non-O (by marriage) and been knocked back?

Edited November 14, 2012 by tommet

[Mario2008]

If I recall correctly Phuket does issue a wp on a non-O based on marriage and immigration does give an extension based on employment, but requires a monthly income of 50,000 a month instead of 40,000 as stipulated by the rules.

[digitalchromakey]

Getting a B visa is rather more complex than getting an O, so that's the main problem at this stage. Also because I am entitled to a non-O and it is sufficient unto the purpose.

I thank you for your warning but I am perplexed Phuket labour office would have the discretionary powers in the face of the national regulations and the fact that granting a work permit to O-visa holders by marriage is commonplace at other labour offices around the country, and at Bangkok headquarters.

My employers are valid and established in Phuket and their people say that an O visa will work. I doubt this is a scam to make me waste my time. If it is refused on this basis you say then I will access my regulated right to appeal, as detailed in the previous link - or if must, fly to Penang.

Labour arguably do not follow the cited guideline below as they currently will not accept certain types of extension, for example Case 2.24 (Visting Spouse)

They are not guidelines they are the regulations. And how do you know this, specifically? We seem to have gone from "sometimes baulk" to an outright prohibition in a few posts. What does "arguably" mean here - that the rest of the sentence may or may not be true?

Labour dept officials are not immigration police AFAIK and do not hold such discretionary powers, any more than a school teacher does.

I note that someother reported problems with O visa work permits at Phuket labour dept seem linked to the possibility that the non-O was due to a retirement, which is not/will not be the case in my case.

I have also been unable to find any first hand accounts in this forum or any other that what you say is happening at Phuket - specifically their blanket (and non-regulation) refusal to issue WP to qualified & sponsored holders of a non-O based on marriage. If it was a big problem I would expect to see at least one example.

Could you explain if you have any first hand experience of this? Have you tried in recent months to obtain a WP from Phuket on the basis on a non-O (by marriage) and been knocked back?

No suggestion that your employer is scamming you, it's just often reported that employers can be slow sorting out WPs for new employees.

Know someone who was refused a WP Issuance with a 2.24 (Visiting Spouse) Extension by Phuket Labour, no personal experience re WP applications there with Non 'O' Visa stamps.

If Labour don't like something they can be just as awkward as Immigration and they are equally as difficult to cajole - plus don't pin too much faith on your right to appeal.

Ultimately it's up to you/your employer what you do; if you do experience problems applying for the WP with a Non 'O' Entry then, as you write, you can always go to Malaysia to get a Non 'B' (KL is easier from Phuket).

Here is a link to the MFA list of requirements for a Non Immigrant 'B' Visa obtained outside of Thailand - nothing unusual here for a company to produce, just the WP application to be filed successfully.

http://www.mfa.go.th...iness-and.html

[digitalchromakey]

If I recall correctly Phuket does issue a wp on a non-O based on marriage and immigration does give an extension based on employment, but requires a monthly income of 50,000 a month instead of 40,000 as stipulated by the rules.

Phuket Immigration certainly do extend based on Thai Spouse/Working, they currently expect the standard 40K pcm for such a 2.18 Extension.

[ubonjoe]

Labour arguably do not follow the cited guideline below as they currently will not accept certain types of extension, for example Case 2.24 (Visting Spouse)

That would probably depend on what type of entry was extended. A visa exempt or tourist visa entry can be extended under this clause. So if that was the case they certainly would not issue a work permit. But if it was an extension of a non immigrant visa entry they would do it.

I think perhaps some of the reports that a non-o was not accepted by a labor office is because it was one that was issued to visit friends or family other than a spouse. Or for being over 50 and retirement.

[digitalchromakey]

Labour arguably do not follow the cited guideline below as they currently will not accept certain types of extension, for example Case 2.24 (Visting Spouse)

That would probably depend on what type of entry was extended. A visa exempt or tourist visa entry can be extended under this clause. So if that was the case they certainly would not issue a work permit. But if it was an extension of a non immigrant visa entry they would do it.

I think perhaps some of the reports that a non-o was not accepted by a labor office is because it was one that was issued to visit friends or family other than a spouse. Or for being over 50 and retirement.

The case in Phuket that I am familar with involved a 2.24 Extension directly following on from a 2.18 Extension which in turn was originally based on a 90 Day Non Immigrant Type 'B' Visa Entry. Edited November 15, 2012 by digitalchromakey

[tommet]

Thanks all for the detailed help, I'll report back how the process goes and what Phuket labour dept say when the time comes.

[NoshowJones]

1. Rather than doing the the change of visa status it would be best to get the O visa first.

For the change of visa status to get an extension based upon marriage you would need to show you have the 40K income or 400K in the bank.

For the B visa change of status you would need the work permit application and etc. plus company documents.

2. Yes

3. My last (over 4 years ago) two visas from Savannakhet have all the info about my marriage including date and registration number at Amphoe. If not I am sure if you asked they would write it on the sticker.

Sorry to differ...

1. Phuket Labour like to have Non 'B' Visas and have baulked in the past at Non 'O's - this would be a big risk, plus the 2.18 (Thai Spouse and working) Extension process at Phuket Immigration is straight forward with the correct paperwork if married with WP and a Non 'B' with income >40k pcm, note the Income Requirement is lower for most than with a 2.1 Extension (Employment).

2. See my comment above - it's not worth the risk at Phuket - plus why get a non 'O' if you can get a Non 'B'?

3. Again - do not recommend Non 'O' if the OP can get a Non 'B'

My employers now seem confident that they can process a work permit with a non-O. Can you tell me more about Phuket Labour demanding a non-B for this?

Would they be within their rights to do so, when the national rules state otherwise? I can't find any accounts of this happening by searching the ThaiVisa forums & the rules seem to state only that a non-immigrant visa is required, it does not specify O or B.

The advantage of the non-O that I can see is that the application process is easier and I won't lose my extension if I lose my job.

Another poster suggested a run to Chaeng Wattana, but that's an extra 1000 k round trip if it doesn't work out.

That is what is wrong with Thai immigration, some offices will do this, some won't. some will do that and some won't. Sometimes it depends on what mood the officer is in. May I give you an example, this is not my personal experience, but a good friend of a few years told me of his experience, he wanted an O visa based on marriage, Phitsanulok will not accept a combination of money in your Thai bank and money you have coming into the country. It must be 400000 Baht in the bank or 40000Baht coming into the country every month. I'm told some other immigration offices will accept a combination. Thailand should make sure all their immigration offices stick to whatever rules they decide on.

[happysanook]

No way. Immigration can't convert a tourist visa into a Non-B. You need to get your Non-B issued in a country other than Thailand at an embassy.

[Mario2008]

That is what is wrong with Thai immigration, some offices will do this, some won't. some will do that and some won't. Sometimes it depends on what mood the officer is in. May I give you an example, this is not my personal experience, but a good friend of a few years told me of his experience, he wanted an O visa based on marriage, Phitsanulok will not accept a combination of money in your Thai bank and money you have coming into the country. It must be 400000 Baht in the bank or 40000Baht coming into the country every month. I'm told some other immigration offices will accept a combination. Thailand should make sure all their immigration offices stick to whatever rules they decide on.

Phitsanulok immigraiton was right, based on marriage a combination is not allowed. (Based on retirement it is allowed).

[NoshowJones]

That is what is wrong with Thai immigration, some offices will do this, some won't. some will do that and some won't. Sometimes it depends on what mood the officer is in. May I give you an example, this is not my personal experience, but a good friend of a few years told me of his experience, he wanted an O visa based on marriage, Phitsanulok will not accept a combination of money in your Thai bank and money you have coming into the country. It must be 400000 Baht in the bank or 40000Baht coming into the country every month. I'm told some other immigration offices will accept a combination. Thailand should make sure all their immigration offices stick to whatever rules they decide on.

Phitsanulok immigraiton was right, based on marriage a combination is not allowed. (Based on retirement it is allowed).

That is exactly as I said Mario, the point I am making is, if other immigration offices will accept a combination, why won't the Phitsanulok office? every immigration office in Thailand should go by the same rules.

[lopburi3]

Please read that reply again - no office anywhere will accept a combination for reason of Thai wife. Only the retirement extension offers that option. All offices are the same.