Going Rate For Decent English-Speaking Entry-Level Staff

[BigJohnnyBKK]

This is a spin-off from another thread, see below for context. I don't want to restrict the topic to a particular geographic region, so let's just assume one of the relatively high-wage areas frequented by foreigners, say for example Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket. Also not specifically the hospitality industry, say general office reception/light clerical also, no advanced computer experience just basic proficiency capable of light data-entry.

WRT the English level, let's say pretty good speaking/listening skills for routine transactions and the normal early-stage gettting-to-know you types of conversations. Writing/computer skills only for routine transactional data-entry, not free-form letters/ emails/ memos. For those familiar with IELTS bands, 5+ speaking/listening and 3-4 reading/writing.

No degree required, a few years' experience in a related setting, of course attractive professional appearance and friendly outgoing manner required. Normal 6-day workweek, ten hour shifts.

The goal is to attract several dozen applicants, ideally hundreds so I can find people with the right personality, which I consider much more important than the formal qualifications, which can after all be improved over time.

No heroic recruiting tactics, just looking to advertise in the one or two local English-language newspapers, perhaps letting local agencies.

And now the question - responders please at least give your wild-ass-guess even if it's a broad range, before launching in to discussions as to all the variables involved, and especially requesting the usual suspects refrain from their cynical and sarcastic comments - this topic has nothing to do with sex paid or otherwise OK?

What should be the bottom number of the salary range offered in the advertisement?

i assume from your post you do not have a business in Thailand. Only because after years of having one here i can tell you the following

1. I can never get enough staff, ie with any advert i run, i hardly get any response, so really do not have much of a choice

2. I most of the time advertise the salary, and on the application form also have the expected salary question, which is often answered 30%-40% above advertised salary

3. Since there are hardly any people applying for a job, as they say "beggers can not be choosers" so their qualifications almost always do not match. Especially when they change jobs every 1-2 months and happily advertise so.

All of my troubles may well be due to location and nature of my business but speaking to number of people, all seem to have same problem

PS. i am in hotel business and located in Pattaya

The issues you're talking about seem to be related to hiring Thais at local rates, perhaps at the low end of what is competitive.

The OP topic relates to hiring foreigners are a position that at least sounds like a possibly "imported expat" position, totally different situation.

(snip)

PS You probably realize this, but recruiting upcountry by word of mouth would yield plenty of applicants for positions not requiring English. Thais already resident in that area are very spoiled compared to most of the rest of the country. For those positions requiring decent English you are probably underestimating how much you have to pay these days, the demand for that skill has been quickly accelerating past the local supply and that trend will continue.

i can tell you that the salary makes no difference, you still get the same people applying.

Advertising for people with experience and English and high salary does not bring better quality candidates, but the very same people, who half of the time can not string 3 words together, or their experience is 1 month here and 1 month there.

A large number unable to distinguish the experience say of being a receptionist at a dentist and reception at hotel.

I am talking about locals, foreigners must be a different ball game. anyhow, now that i got it off my chest back to OP

[farang000999]

Minimum wage? I see no reason why a no-skills required besides speak English job would pay more than that? It doesn't appear to.

Edited November 15, 2012 by farang000999

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Sorry I should have qualified - looking for responses from people actually working here with experience in hiring Thais, not speculation based on assumptions.

Less than 1% of the population at this end of the job market have any English to speak of, much less the levels I'm talking about, so claiming that that requirement doesn't require any premium over the equivalent non-English applicant IMO isn't realistic.

The local car wash around the corner from me can't find decent staff at B300 per day, the only applicants are zero-English teenagers, who show up maybe 2/3's of the time even in their first month and most don't stick around that long.

[CharlieH]

All I would say at this stage is the old saying "if you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys"

In my experience if you offer lower money they will pretty much come and go as they please, no real commitment, slightest excuse and they wont turn up.

It doesnt always follow that higher money will resolve that issue but it does reduce it dramatically. I have found less than 10k a month and unless you are really lucky they wont stay or be consistent. I am in the provinces Bangkok and larger cities of course may be different. Best combination has been salary and some kind of performance or attendance "bonus" works best.

Edited November 16, 2012 by CharlieH

[loong]

In OP you say "responders please at least give your wild-ass-guess even if it's a broad range,"

In your 2nd "not speculation based on assumptions."

I think that you need to base it somewhat on the cost of living and accomodation in the area

Cost of reasonably comfortable room/apartment

+ 5,000 Bt for eating out etc

+5,000 Bt for sending home, leisure spending, saving etc

[farang000999]

Sorry I should have qualified - looking for responses from people actually working here with experience in hiring Thais, not speculation based on assumptions.

Less than 1% of the population at this end of the job market have any English to speak of, much less the levels I'm talking about, so claiming that that requirement doesn't require any premium over the equivalent non-English applicant IMO isn't realistic.

The local car wash around the corner from me can't find decent staff at B300 per day, the only applicants are zero-English teenagers, who show up maybe 2/3's of the time even in their first month and most don't stick around that long.

So what do people who work no skill jobs in tourist areas make? Minimum wage? Yes. Just go walk around MBK or any other shopping mall in the city and you will find plenty of candidates. English is pretty common in 2012 in Bangkok.

Edited November 16, 2012 by farang000999

[Hssl]

A girl in my office gets 20k per month - university degree, 29 years old. She's a shared PA between me and one of the bosses

I would rate her at 90% fluent as much of the work 'English' is technical and not just everyday conversation.

[QED]

My PA has a Masters in English from USA, she gets 35k pm. Without a degree and 'some' English I would say around 15-20k pm.

One of your problems may be where you advertise, I doubt many Thais buy the local English press or look at their websites. Try jobsdb .dot. com, we always get a lot of applicants from there.

[QED]

My PA has a Masters in English from USA, she gets 35k pm. Without a degree and 'some' English I would say around 15-20k pm.

One of your problems may be where you advertise, I doubt many Thais buy the local English press or look at their websites. Try jobsdb .dot. com, we always get a lot of applicants from there.

[thaicbr]

My gf works as a customer service supervisor for a textile factory. Her customers are in the UK. US and Hong Kong. She started on 26 thou 4 years ago and is now on 30thou. With a yearly 2 month salary bonus. I hope that helps.

sent from my Q6

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Thanks to all the serious respondents.

The fact that some jobs pay a 2-month salary as an annual bonus is interesting (17%), I assume that's conditional on year-end profits or something?

In OP you say "responders please at least give your wild-ass-guess even if it's a broad range,"

In your 2nd "not speculation based on assumptions."

I think that you need to base it somewhat on the cost of living and accomodation in the area

Cost of reasonably comfortable room/apartment

+ 5,000 Bt for eating out etc

+5,000 Bt for sending home, leisure spending, saving etc

My perception of the current employment situation here is that the cost of living aren't as relevant as demand and supply. These days it's very easy for any Thai who wants to work to find it, and to then switch to a new job at the drop of a hat.

Edited November 16, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[WilliaminBKK]

In my group we pay 22K to start & one month bonus based on review, after a favourable review at the end of year one most are bumped to 25-28K 3 weeks paid holidays, 8 sick days. We offer additional perks I would say work out to 40K p.a. I also have a Thai do the initial interview 15-20 minutes in Thai and then I pop in once they are relaxed, starting out in English I found most candidates were so nervous simple mistakes were made, once was comfortable it seems to flow naturally.

In terms of recruiting it is really difficult, to the point we now offer a 5K-10K incentive to staff when a candidate is hired-works like a charm.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

In my group we pay 22K to start & one month bonus based on review, after a favourable review at the end of year one most are bumped to 25-28K 3 weeks paid holidays, 8 sick days. We offer additional perks I would say work out to 40K p.a. I also have a Thai do the initial interview 15-20 minutes in Thai and then I pop in once they are relaxed, starting out in English I found most candidates were so nervous simple mistakes were made, once was comfortable it seems to flow naturally.

In terms of recruiting it is really difficult, to the point we now offer a 5K-10K incentive to staff when a candidate is hired-works like a charm.

Thanks for the excellent and detailed post. Bangkok?

And aren't sick days mandated by the labour laws?

[WilliaminBKK]

In my group we pay 22K to start & one month bonus based on review, after a favourable review at the end of year one most are bumped to 25-28K 3 weeks paid holidays, 8 sick days. We offer additional perks I would say work out to 40K p.a. I also have a Thai do the initial interview 15-20 minutes in Thai and then I pop in once they are relaxed, starting out in English I found most candidates were so nervous simple mistakes were made, once was comfortable it seems to flow naturally.

In terms of recruiting it is really difficult, to the point we now offer a 5K-10K incentive to staff when a candidate is hired-works like a charm.

Thanks for the excellent and detailed post. Bangkok?

And aren't sick days mandated by the labour laws?

Yes Bangkok & I am so sorry I should have said that was on top of mandated sick entitlement. We allow staff the 8 days for whatever reason, mental health day, personal leave call them floaters I guess, for HR purposes they are considered sick days-sorry for the confusion.

[allane]

Add 20% to whatever you would pay a non-English speaker. You asked for a figure for the minimum end of your range, and most of the suggestions I have seen above look too high for that. There is nothing to stop you from offering a signifigant raise in pay if you find you have some truly exceptional talent, or if people start quitting.

[soomak]

Thanks to all the serious respondents.

The fact that some jobs pay a 2-month salary as an annual bonus is interesting (17%), I assume that's conditional on year-end profits or something?

My gf worked for KK bank, and she said the annual bonus was between 2-7 months, based on their personal performance, and that the sales staff got more than the administrative staff.

Of course they are all college educated at the bank.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Yes Bangkok & I am so sorry I should have said that was on top of mandated sick entitlement. We allow staff the 8 days for whatever reason, mental health day, personal leave call them floaters I guess, for HR purposes they are considered sick days-sorry for the confusion.

Wow, so in effect nearly a month's paid holiday on top of five weeks' potential sick leave, very generous from a US POV.

But I assume for that salary range you're requiring a degree and most likely higher level of English that I outlined, at least on the reading/writing side? Probably more experience in a professional environment, higher level computer skills (MS Office proficiency etc)?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Add 20% to whatever you would pay a non-English speaker.

Which in my case doesn't help but thanks - what do you think an otherwise qualified receptionist/low-level office clerk - but with no English - should get?

You asked for a figure for the minimum end of your range, and most of the suggestions I have seen above look too high for that. There is nothing to stop you from offering a signifigant raise in pay if you find you have some truly exceptional talent, or if people start quitting.

Of course, but for example the above detailed response included the B22k starting offer for probation period, which is the specific data point I requested, in addition to the other information which is also useful for comparison.

[petedk]

Thanks to all the serious respondents.

The fact that some jobs pay a 2-month salary as an annual bonus is interesting (17%), I assume that's conditional on year-end profits or something?

My gf worked for KK bank, and she said the annual bonus was between 2-7 months, based on their personal performance, and that the sales staff got more than the administrative staff.

Of course they are all college educated at the bank.

There's a huge difference in what companies offer. I have a friend who works in a lower lever managerial position for Citibank. She speaks and writes very good English ( and is often called upon to help others).

Her working day is 8.30 to 21.30 (22.00) EVERYDAY including Saturdays.

Salary 20K. No bonus.

Don't know why she doesn't change jobs.

Edited November 16, 2012 by petedk

[BigJohnnyBKK]

In terms of recruiting it is really difficult, to the point we now offer a 5K-10K incentive to staff when a candidate is hired-works like a charm.

Sorry, forgot to address this point.

So for an outfit without an existing staff base to network from, if you had to rely on the advertising process only, do you think you would you need to bump the starting wage up to attract "several dozen applicants, ideally hundreds"?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

There's a huge difference in what companies offer. I have a friend who works in a lower lever managerial position for Citibank. She speaks and writes very good English ( and is often called upon to help others).

Her working day is 8.30 to 21.30 (22.00) EVERYDAY including Saturdays.

Salary 20K. No bonus.

dam_n Yanks 8-)

And I believe you mean a 6-day week? AFAIK that's standard, few staff at this level get a five-day work week in Thailand.

[WilliaminBKK]

Yes Bangkok & I am so sorry I should have said that was on top of mandated sick entitlement. We allow staff the 8 days for whatever reason, mental health day, personal leave call them floaters I guess, for HR purposes they are considered sick days-sorry for the confusion.

Wow, so in effect nearly a month's paid holiday on top of five weeks' potential sick leave, very generous from a US POV.

But I assume for that salary range you're requiring a degree and most likely higher level of English that I outlined, at least on the reading/writing side? Probably more experience in a professional environment, higher level computer skills (MS Office proficiency etc)?

Yes Bangkok & I am so sorry I should have said that was on top of mandated sick entitlement. We allow staff the 8 days for whatever reason, mental health day, personal leave call them floaters I guess, for HR purposes they are considered sick days-sorry for the confusion.

Wow, so in effect nearly a month's paid holiday on top of five weeks' potential sick leave, very generous from a US POV.

But I assume for that salary range you're requiring a degree and most likely higher level of English that I outlined, at least on the reading/writing side? Probably more experience in a professional environment, higher level computer skills (MS Office proficiency etc)?

Our HR is in Germany so we tend to follow EU rules. HR would like a degree for all candidates HOWEVER I don't follow that since my pool of candidates are from staff already hired Computer skills are more or less OJT a basic proficiency is required however most of the work is done in cryptic commands circa 1980.

[loong]

Thanks to all the serious respondents.

The fact that some jobs pay a 2-month salary as an annual bonus is interesting (17%), I assume that's conditional on year-end profits or something?

In OP you say "responders please at least give your wild-ass-guess even if it's a broad range,"

In your 2nd "not speculation based on assumptions."

I think that you need to base it somewhat on the cost of living and accomodation in the area

Cost of reasonably comfortable room/apartment

+ 5,000 Bt for eating out etc

+5,000 Bt for sending home, leisure spending, saving etc

My perception of the current employment situation here is that the cost of living aren't as relevant as demand and supply. These days it's very easy for any Thai who wants to work to find it, and to then switch to a new job at the drop of a hat.

Of course cost of living is relevant.

You asked - "What should be the bottom number of the salary range offered in the advertisement?"

and so I offered a way for you to work out what the absolute minimum wage may be. Obviously if you want to attract more qualified applicants, you would have to offer more, as well as enhanced benefits and working conditions

[BigJohnnyBKK]

You asked - "What should be the bottom number of the salary range offered in the advertisement?"

I just meant the former figure in a phrase like "18,000 - 24,000 to start".

Sorry I thought the fact that I wanted to attract large numbers of applicants would indicate I wasn't looking for the sense of absolute minimum.

[soomak]

There's a huge difference in what companies offer. I have a friend who works in a lower lever managerial position for Citibank. She speaks and writes very good English ( and is often called upon to help others).

Her working day is 8.30 to 21.30 (22.00) EVERYDAY including Saturdays.

Salary 20K. No bonus.

dam_n Yanks 8-)

And I believe you mean a 6-day week? AFAIK that's standard, few staff at this level get a five-day work week in Thailand.

78 hours per week is not standard for an office job, even in Thailand.

Btw the law says 48 hours per week, and beyond that you must pay overtime rates at 50% more per hour. Of course no one really cares about the law except for government agencies, but if you want to be covered you need to pay overtime.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

There's a huge difference in what companies offer. I have a friend who works in a lower lever managerial position for Citibank. She speaks and writes very good English ( and is often called upon to help others).

Her working day is 8.30 to 21.30 (22.00) EVERYDAY including Saturdays.

Salary 20K. No bonus.

dam_n Yanks 8-)

And I believe you mean a 6-day week? AFAIK that's standard, few staff at this level get a five-day work week in Thailand.

78 hours per week is not standard for an office job, even in Thailand.

Btw the law says 48 hours per week, and beyond that you must pay overtime rates at 50% more per hour. Of course no one really cares about the law except for government agencies, but if you want to be covered you need to pay overtime.

Don't know where you're getting 78 hours, just clarifying petedk's "EVERY DAY" statement as not including Sundays.

Do many hotel and office environments pay overtime? I've only come across that among my ex-factory worker gf's.

And BTW I've known plenty of government jobs where people are working those kinds of hours, especially around marking time 8-)

PS I'm not gathering this information from the POV of the employer, but that of the job seeker.

[soomak]

There's a huge difference in what companies offer. I have a friend who works in a lower lever managerial position for Citibank. She speaks and writes very good English ( and is often called upon to help others).

Her working day is 8.30 to 21.30 (22.00) EVERYDAY including Saturdays.

Salary 20K. No bonus.

dam_n Yanks 8-)

And I believe you mean a 6-day week? AFAIK that's standard, few staff at this level get a five-day work week in Thailand.

78 hours per week is not standard for an office job, even in Thailand.

Btw the law says 48 hours per week, and beyond that you must pay overtime rates at 50% more per hour. Of course no one really cares about the law except for government agencies, but if you want to be covered you need to pay overtime.

Don't know where you're getting 78 hours, just clarifying petedk's "EVERY DAY" statement as not including Sundays.

Do many hotel and office environments pay overtime? I've only come across that among my ex-factory worker gf's.

And BTW I've known plenty of government jobs where people are working those kinds of hours, especially around marking time 8-)

PS I'm not gathering this information from the POV of the employer, but that of the job seeker.

8.30 to 21.30 = 13

13 X 6 = 78

[BigJohnnyBKK]

8.30 to 21.30 = 13

13 X 6 = 78

Aha yes that is a lot isn't it, even if you take out lunch and breaks, probably right on the clock at a bank too.

Think they're paying OT? 8-)

[mogandave]

We pay monthly bonuses and annual bonus. Annual is minimum 1 month, up to 4 months depending on personal and plant performance. Bonus is based on base salary.

It is worth noting that outside of tourist areas and Bangkok, it is exponentially more difficult to hire and retain English speaking Thais, and you generally have to pay significantly more money, unless you get lucky.

[mogandave]

8.30 to 21.30 = 13

13 X 6 = 78

Aha yes that is a lot isn't it, even if you take out lunch and breaks, probably right on the clock at a bank too.

Think they're paying OT? 8-)

Most legitimate companies are paying overtime. If not, when you terminate them, they go to the labor department and the labor department will force you to pay them for whatever back hours they have due, plus their severance.

5 day week, 40 hours straight time

6 day week, 48 hours straight time

48 hours in a 5-day week = 8 hours overtime

Regardless of what other companies may or may not be doing, not paying overtime for employees is against the law.