Seductive Dangers Of A Coup Mentality: Thailand

[webfact]

Seductive dangers of a coup mentality

Pravit Rojanaphruk

THe Nation

BANGKOK: -- It is both myopic and ironic that the leader of a group of citizens who claim to want to protect the country would begin his campaign by calling for a military coup. That's precisely what Pitak Siam (Protecting Siam) group leader retired General Boonlert Kaewprasit did when he launched the movement some weeks ago.

Now he aims to convince even more people to join his anti-government demonstration, which drew an estimated crowd of some 20,000 the last time around, in a "do or die" bid to remove the government, which he portrayed as corrupt and anti-monarchist.

Boonlert, aka Seh Ai, is on the defensive amid accusations of wanting to deep freeze Thailand through a coup, however, and the retired general said on Sunday he merely wants to freeze corrupt politicians by removing them from power.

The obvious problem is he has not consulted the majority of the electorate on whether or not they agree with his view and that of his supporters.

Calling for a coup to oust an elected government is tantamount to deep freezing or nullifying the political rights of a majority of the electorate who have chosen the Pheu Thai Party.

Perhaps Thailand should learn from the latest general election in the United States, where nearly half the electorate voted for Mitt Romney yet accepted defeat after slightly more people voted for Barack Obama. In the US, it's unthinkable that someone would call for a military coup to solve a political dispute. Yet Thais who oppose Thaksin-Yingluck Shinawatra are doing just that and find it palatable.

It seems that Boonlert and his supporters and co-leaders, including Tul Sitthisomwong, leader of the multi-coloured-shirt group, haven't learned any lessons from Thai history, one reading of which claims that coups d'etat are a vehicle to advance a benign and righteous society. If military coups are good, then the 18 "successful" coups over the past eight decades should have made Thailand an uber-moral and squeaky clean society by now.

Instead, the last coup in 2006, which ousted Thaksin, only heightened mutual political hatred and distrust on both sides.

What people like Boonlert and Tul, along with the self-styled People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), should try to do is to convince others that perhaps they should vote for a different political party in the next general election.

However, using dehumanising terms in referring to pro-Thaksin-Yingluck red shirts as "red water buffaloes" would hardly aid such a cause.

If they want to deep freeze their brains and indulge themselves in a fantasy of an unelected form of governance, then that's their choice. Their only legitimate way to achieve this is to convince others through reasoning and debate and not through the force of yet another coup.

Even if there were to be such a coup, an eventual general election is no longer impossible to put off indefinitely and society will simply be back to square one with people who have their political rights violated by a coup voting for the party that they prefer.

Thailand's path forward is not in installing a group of "morally self-righteous" people at the helm through any means - but in ensuring that equal political rights and a level playing field be realised so everyone can take an active part in the country's development, be it political, economic or cultural.

The system where a handful self-righteous elites hold sway over obedient millions is long past, and even if a military coup was to be staged today, it would not succeed in convincing people to simply accept their lot in life and shut their mouths.

The time is long gone when a small number of unelected elites can lord over the majority without any resistance. Some are willing to hold on to this forlorn delusion indefinitely, however hilarious, and at whatever cost to Thailand.

-- The Nation 2012-11- 21

[asiawatcher]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Edited November 21, 2012 by asiawatcher

[nurofiend]

What people like Boonlert and Tul, along with the self-styled People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), should try to do is to convince others that perhaps they should vote for a different political party in the next general election.

now there's an idea.

but it seems calling for military coups! and continuing to feed that anti-monarchist line that the yellow rank and file ate up long ago and continue to swallow seems to be their style.

if people don't value the same party we like, it's because they're too stupid... that's their idea of democracy.

i wonder will he limp away with his tail between his legs and stop this disgusting coup calling nonsense if a million people don't show up like he promised.

[nurofiend]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a (democratically elected) fraud, being controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand. The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option. Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as they simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there?

"Call for another election? Hardly an option."

why?

"openly corrupt in both scamming the populace - and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid"

how?

"The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI"

is there something wrong with a government who has control over their police, or do you prefer a government who has no control over their army?

and do you think when the dems were in charge, were they controlling the DSI?

Edited November 21, 2012 by nurofiend

[isaanbrit]

Reply to second poster

As pravit suggested. Try to persuade people to change their vote. Instead of cslling them kwai, try to show them how the dem party cd benefit them. If pt is really so bad as u say, it should be easy

[theajarn]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

[theajarn]

Reply to second poster

As pravit suggested. Try to persuade people to change their vote. Instead of cslling them kwai, try to show them how the dem party cd benefit them. If pt is really so bad as u say, it should be easy

Agree with the second and third poster.. as I said -- the democrat government failed MISERABLY to do this. I was expecting them to make use of their tenure to 'educate' people on the issue... maybe explain politics in a way that is easy for the common Thai to understand... but noooo... instead the democrats were rushing to line their own pockets. So they're no better than the current government... equally corrupt politicians, just a different colour. Educate the masses... I'm a fool -- what was I _thinking_ ?

Edited November 21, 2012 by theajarn

[ridkun]

Reply to second poster

As pravit suggested. Try to persuade people to change their vote. Instead of cslling them kwai, try to show them how the dem party cd benefit them. If pt is really so bad as u say, it should be easy

Have you ever thought that somebody just voted for Democrat because they just had no choice? So why such people have to go out and promote Democrat? If there were no Democrat in Thailand, what would you suggest? Now you should be able to see that Democrat is obviously out of the context, it is about the government and it doesn't matter what party the government is, people always have right for the government that act for people and country's interest rather than blinding them with the money taken from taxpayers.

[ridkun]

Back to the OP, I think Pitak Siam must be desperate in planning of their next action. In my opinion, their concerns are understandable but unfortunately their action plan sounds absurd, no matter it is freezing the country or freezing the politician because it cannot be done democratically and that's why they're calling for an once-again coup.

You might ask why this people considering coup d'état an option even we are in democracy? Well, I might say it's because coup d'état brought us democracy in 2475, so it's hard fact that has been preventing coup d'état's status to become total evil in Thailand I think. It's just like when the first button of a shirt is put wrong...

[Siripon]

General Boonlert is not astute enough,instead of calling for a freeze on all political activity for 5 years, he should have declared a war on corrupt politicians.

Set up a group to monitor corruption, not so hard in this high tech age.

He'd have got support from the Democrats and even Pheua Thai would have had to go along with it to try to look clean.

[DocN]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Wow...here we go again, with the usual bunch of blind- on- one- eye accusations, half truth and the whole bunch.

As usual, insulting the Thais, who voted for this government as stupid (when will you ever learn that "stupid"/"lack of intelligence" and "uneducated" are two very different things?

And when will you finally accept, that the "lack of intelligence" was no problem, as long as they voted, what you and your likes wanted them to vote?

And the old vote buying? I know for a FACT, that the Democrats tried the same thing...and failed. But I bet, you would be on their throat as well, if they would have won the last election with the same dirty tricks?! ...not!

And forgetting, that a coup is immoral & undemocratic (eg WRONG!): if what you lay out as reasons for a coup (corruption, vote buying, more corruption, lining ones own pockets and the pockets of friends and family etc. or a government, controlled bt forces outside the government (Thaksin, the military, the so - called elite)...we would be having coups here, shortly after every single election!

"Yeah...i don't like the way you voted, because you are stupid...bring in the Army!"

Democracy and freedom, the asiawatcher way!

[OzMick]

Ah yes, the grass is always greener, etc, but it may be an illusion. OTOH there seems to be a large number willing to take that risk, which says something about their thoughts of their present position.

[OzMick]

Reply to second poster

As pravit suggested. Try to persuade people to change their vote. Instead of cslling them kwai, try to show them how the dem party cd benefit them. If pt is really so bad as u say, it should be easy

Agree with the second and third poster.. as I said -- the democrat government failed MISERABLY to do this. I was expecting them to make use of their tenure to 'educate' people on the issue... maybe explain politics in a way that is easy for the common Thai to understand... but noooo... instead the democrats were rushing to line their own pockets. So they're no better than the current government... equally corrupt politicians, just a different colour. Educate the masses... I'm a fool -- what was I _thinking_ ?

You expected the Democrats to set their own "democracy schools" in opposition to Thaksin's? Should they have paid the same attendance fee or offered more?

[MunterHunter]

Round up all corrupt politicians and officals (civil servants, police, military etc) regardless of political affiliation, put them in a big field and drop a few bombs on them...

Who ever is left, round them up and start a coalition government... or if there isnte nough politicians left, re-instate full Monacy rule.

[Thai at Heart]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

[asiawatcher]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a (democratically elected) fraud, being controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand. The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option. Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as they simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there?

"Call for another election? Hardly an option."

why?

"openly corrupt in both scamming the populace - and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid"

how?

"The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI"

is there something wrong with a government who has control over their police, or do you prefer a government who has no control over their army?

and do you think when the dems were in charge, were they controlling the DSI?

I wasn't even going to respond to this - however, in the interests of all, fortunately most of the TV bloggers have the intelligence to realise every question here is answered in the post. Sadly - you don't see it.

[asiawatcher]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Wow...here we go again, with the usual bunch of blind- on- one- eye accusations, half truth and the whole bunch.

As usual, insulting the Thais, who voted for this government as stupid (when will you ever learn that "stupid"/"lack of intelligence" and "uneducated" are two very different things?

And when will you finally accept, that the "lack of intelligence" was no problem, as long as they voted, what you and your likes wanted them to vote?

And the old vote buying? I know for a FACT, that the Democrats tried the same thing...and failed. But I bet, you would be on their throat as well, if they would have won the last election with the same dirty tricks?! ...not!

And forgetting, that a coup is immoral & undemocratic (eg WRONG!): if what you lay out as reasons for a coup (corruption, vote buying, more corruption, lining ones own pockets and the pockets of friends and family etc. or a government, controlled bt forces outside the government (Thaksin, the military, the so - called elite)...we would be having coups here, shortly after every single election!

"Yeah...i don't like the way you voted, because you are stupid...bring in the Army!"

Democracy and freedom, the asiawatcher way!

Dearest DocN - I did not endorse or offer an option. Your blind faith in socialism and belief in corruption and endorsement of same, manipulation of poor 'uneducated' people etc., proves your point. Ignorance is bliss.

[Sharp]

Round up all corrupt politicians and officals (civil servants, police, military etc) regardless of political affiliation, put them in a big field and drop a few bombs on them...

Who ever is left, round them up and start a coalition government... or if there isnte nough politicians left, re-instate full Monacy rule.

Wow...but u could be right ...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[Sharp]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Wow...here we go again, with the usual bunch of blind- on- one- eye accusations, half truth and the whole bunch.

As usual, insulting the Thais, who voted for this government as stupid (when will you ever learn that "stupid"/"lack of intelligence" and "uneducated" are two very different things?

And when will you finally accept, that the "lack of intelligence" was no problem, as long as they voted, what you and your likes wanted them to vote?

And the old vote buying? I know for a FACT, that the Democrats tried the same thing...and failed. But I bet, you would be on their throat as well, if they would have won the last election with the same dirty tricks?! ...not!

And forgetting, that a coup is immoral & undemocratic (eg WRONG!): if what you lay out as reasons for a coup (corruption, vote buying, more corruption, lining ones own pockets and the pockets of friends and family etc. or a government, controlled bt forces outside the government (Thaksin, the military, the so - called elite)...we would be having coups here, shortly after every single election!

"Yeah...i don't like the way you voted, because you are stupid...bring in the Army!"

Democracy and freedom, the asiawatcher way!

Dearest DocN - I did not endorse or offer an option. Your blind faith in socialism and belief in corruption and endorsement of same, manipulation of poor 'uneducated' people etc., proves your point. Ignorance is bliss.

Agreed...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[noitom]

More speculative tripe about yet another Thai military coup? How preposterously boring.

[JurgenG]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

I globally agree with your analysis.

The main problem of Thailand is not Thaksin, it's the absence of a credible opposition. It's basically true that the democrats have an execrable leader because any real leader would suffer the same fate as Thaksin.

The only solution for democracy in Thailand is not to eliminate Thaksin but to have two Thaksin who keep each other in check. That's the way democracy works. Lets get rid of this doormat at the head of the democrats and find a real leader. And send the old guard to the retirement home where they belong.

[OzMick]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

A couple of your question deserve (partial) answers.

"Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved?" Mainly because most of the Thai population would not be able to afford the fares. However, some of the many billions proposed for a high speed rail (unaffordable to nearly all) and being lost on the rice scam could improve the service.

"Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? " Don't you think the hypocrisy of Thaksin allowing in more telcos, and thus ruining a perfectly good closed market, when he made his billions from a monopoly, might be too much even for him - especially if it was pointed out LOUDLY. Believe it or not, many of his supporters still believe that he was a brilliant businessman, a lie repeated ad infinitum.

" why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity" Because the government in power is highly unlikely to revoke parliamentary immunity when so many of its members are also facing charges from BEFORE they were nominated to party list seats. Should cases be allowed to proceed? ABSOLUTELY.

" Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average?" Public servants medical schemes were installed in lieu of pay rises - in short, they are contributors, and you get what you pay for. Thaksin's grand "re-elect me" medical scheme was largely unfunded and nearly sent the whole system broke. It was a facade, which now has huge expense at its current low standard. To upgrade it to the level paid for by public servants would cost money not available, unless some of the other "vote-for-me" garbage was dumped.

[ridkun]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

I globally agree with your analysis.

The main problem of Thailand is not Thaksin, it's the absence of a credible opposition. It's basically true that the democrats have an execrable leader because any real leader would suffer the same fate as Thaksin.

The only solution for democracy in Thailand is not to eliminate Thaksin but to have two Thaksin who keep each other in check. That's the way democracy works. Lets get rid of this doormat at the head of the democrats and find a real leader. And send the old guard to the retirement home where they belong.

It's kind of weird to think that eliminating Thaksin is obviously not the solution, and in the same time eliminating Thaksin will solve the problem too.

[jonclark]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

I globally agree with your analysis.

The main problem of Thailand is not Thaksin, it's the absence of a credible opposition. It's basically true that the democrats have an execrable leader because any real leader would suffer the same fate as Thaksin.

The only solution for democracy in Thailand is not to eliminate Thaksin but to have two Thaksin who keep each other in check. That's the way democracy works. Lets get rid of this doormat at the head of the democrats and find a real leader. And send the old guard to the retirement home where they belong.

For once Jurgen I am in complete agreement. The biggest thing the Dems could learn is to get a new leader, who is clean and untainted (just like PTP did with Yingluck). The mere mention of Av on Red radio stations sends its listeners into a near psychopathic frenzy of blind hatred. An new leader (possibly a woman) would provide the dems with greater chance of making inroads into PTP territory.

[Thai at Heart]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

I globally agree with your analysis.

The main problem of Thailand is not Thaksin, it's the absence of a credible opposition. It's basically true that the democrats have an execrable leader because any real leader would suffer the same fate as Thaksin.

The only solution for democracy in Thailand is not to eliminate Thaksin but to have two Thaksin who keep each other in check. That's the way democracy works. Lets get rid of this doormat at the head of the democrats and find a real leader. And send the old guard to the retirement home where they belong.

Interesting take on it. Two Thaksins. I think the better way would be for someone a little similar to Abhisit who realizes there are thousands of issues out there that can be changed to the average person's benefit. Genuinely go to war on corruption, genuinely reform the legal justice systems, genuinely change up the tax system, genuinely change up the education system, genuinely reform the agribusiness market.

It really is the fact that "In the country's benefit" is so confused in Thailand. There are laws to protect business, there are laws that allow the government to get paid (such as CAT or TOT), which are of absolutely zero benefit to the average man on the street. There is very little to protect the consumer or the average joe. They can't even enforce what minimum wage laws they have now.

The country's benefit is the benefit of the average Somchai, not exclusively, companies, and certainly not bureaucrats. This is what has to give. The problem is, if this change of mindset was to happen in Thailand, you really wouldn't know where to start because it has NEVER been this way.

The interests of keeping bureaucrats in jobs, and large oligopoly business interests have outweighed everyone completely. Just imagine if Abhisit said, right, we need more competition in the agribusiness market, we are going to allow foreign companies in and regulate the system to monitor that payments are made directly to farmers at best market rates. We are going to facilitate better transparency in the market, reform the fertiliser market , middle men are illegal, companies cannot sign up farmers for more than one year, inputs must be provided by companies who contract farmers at cost, bla bla bla. We are going to work to make sure that everything is done to keep the market competitive, farmers who believe they are receiving unfair pricing, can sell to the government at this minimum price, and stop the farmer getting gouged. I will not allow companies to put all the risk onto the farmer, bla, bla, bla.

The owner of CP would have a heart attack right there and then. The rubber processors would fall off their chairs, the sugar cane exporters would all need medication. But these are precisely the issues that a government can solve. It doesn't need to have the whole thing socialised, it needs rules and regs put on the market to raise the bargaining power of the farmers. All of these types of controls are in place in other markets all over the world, but oh no, Thailand must do it their way, in the interests of the people (i.e. the processors and exporters).

So instead, we have PTP, making an extreme move in the market and mucking it up, when all it needed for the last 10 years was to have found a way to force a transfer of wealth from the private companies to the farmers by raising the power of the farmers in the market. Of course private companies need to make a profit, but the way the markets are now, they make too much. It is too cozy.

[Thai at Heart]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

A couple of your question deserve (partial) answers.

"Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved?" Mainly because most of the Thai population would not be able to afford the fares. However, some of the many billions proposed for a high speed rail (unaffordable to nearly all) and being lost on the rice scam could improve the service.

"Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? " Don't you think the hypocrisy of Thaksin allowing in more telcos, and thus ruining a perfectly good closed market, when he made his billions from a monopoly, might be too much even for him - especially if it was pointed out LOUDLY. Believe it or not, many of his supporters still believe that he was a brilliant businessman, a lie repeated ad infinitum.

" why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity" Because the government in power is highly unlikely to revoke parliamentary immunity when so many of its members are also facing charges from BEFORE they were nominated to party list seats. Should cases be allowed to proceed? ABSOLUTELY.

" Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average?" Public servants medical schemes were installed in lieu of pay rises - in short, they are contributors, and you get what you pay for. Thaksin's grand "re-elect me" medical scheme was largely unfunded and nearly sent the whole system broke. It was a facade, which now has huge expense at its current low standard. To upgrade it to the level paid for by public servants would cost money not available, unless some of the other "vote-for-me" garbage was dumped.

Well, I am not looking at it from the perspective of wondering why Thaksin doesn't grab the nettle and solve these things. He is a businessman who understands how wonderful it can be to sit behind the protection of a monopoly only too well.

I wonder why Abhisit doesn't or didn't grab the nettle and reform these types of things? Actually one could say, the most brilliant intervention into any market in Thailand came about post 97, when the Dems signed up to reform the telecoms market and we ended up with basic model phone prices going from 35,000 baht to the prices they are today. Problem is we are paying for that intervention politically today.

So see, it can be done to the benefit of the people and the detriment of business profit. I am sure there an element of "Why only me?", in Thaksin's motivation.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[DocN]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Wow...here we go again, with the usual bunch of blind- on- one- eye accusations, half truth and the whole bunch.

As usual, insulting the Thais, who voted for this government as stupid (when will you ever learn that "stupid"/"lack of intelligence" and "uneducated" are two very different things?

And when will you finally accept, that the "lack of intelligence" was no problem, as long as they voted, what you and your likes wanted them to vote?

And the old vote buying? I know for a FACT, that the Democrats tried the same thing...and failed. But I bet, you would be on their throat as well, if they would have won the last election with the same dirty tricks?! ...not!

And forgetting, that a coup is immoral & undemocratic (eg WRONG!): if what you lay out as reasons for a coup (corruption, vote buying, more corruption, lining ones own pockets and the pockets of friends and family etc. or a government, controlled bt forces outside the government (Thaksin, the military, the so - called elite)...we would be having coups here, shortly after every single election!

"Yeah...i don't like the way you voted, because you are stupid...bring in the Army!"

Democracy and freedom, the asiawatcher way!

Dearest DocN - I did not endorse or offer an option. Your blind faith in socialism and belief in corruption and endorsement of same, manipulation of poor 'uneducated' people etc., proves your point. Ignorance is bliss.

Aha!

So you can not even read?

That is sad!

Maybe you point out where I said, I have faith in socialism?

Where I said I "believe" in corruption...unless you mean, I believe it exists...?

Where I "endorse" corruption or manipulation of poor and "uneducated" people?

If ignorance is my bliss, I at least ignore all parts of the spectrum equally and not, like you, just the ones that fit me best!

Edited November 21, 2012 by DocN

[OzMick]

Well, I am not looking at it from the perspective of wondering why Thaksin doesn't grab the nettle and solve these things. He is a businessman who understands how wonderful it can be to sit behind the protection of a monopoly only too well.

I wonder why Abhisit doesn't or didn't grab the nettle and reform these types of things? Actually one could say, the most brilliant intervention into any market in Thailand came about post 97, when the Dems signed up to reform the telecoms market and we ended up with basic model phone prices going from 35,000 baht to the prices they are today. Problem is we are paying for that intervention politically today.

So see, it can be done to the benefit of the people and the detriment of business profit. I am sure there an element of "Why only me?", in Thaksin's motivation.

Abhisit is not PM, and when he was for a limited time had other problems a la red shirts. Thaksin's puppet admin has been running for 15 months with absolute majority, yet your focus is still on his predecessor. Why? Because " He is a businessman........" and expected to make a profit, not a politician expected to put the good of his country before personal gain.

Until public service becomes that and not a profit-making opportunity, this country remains severely handicapped, both physically and mentally.

[OzMick]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Wow...here we go again, with the usual bunch of blind- on- one- eye accusations, half truth and the whole bunch.

As usual, insulting the Thais, who voted for this government as stupid (when will you ever learn that "stupid"/"lack of intelligence" and "uneducated" are two very different things?

And when will you finally accept, that the "lack of intelligence" was no problem, as long as they voted, what you and your likes wanted them to vote?

And the old vote buying? I know for a FACT, that the Democrats tried the same thing...and failed. But I bet, you would be on their throat as well, if they would have won the last election with the same dirty tricks?! ...not!

And forgetting, that a coup is immoral & undemocratic (eg WRONG!): if what you lay out as reasons for a coup (corruption, vote buying, more corruption, lining ones own pockets and the pockets of friends and family etc. or a government, controlled bt forces outside the government (Thaksin, the military, the so - called elite)...we would be having coups here, shortly after every single election!

"Yeah...i don't like the way you voted, because you are stupid...bring in the Army!"

Democracy and freedom, the asiawatcher way!

Dearest DocN - I did not endorse or offer an option. Your blind faith in socialism and belief in corruption and endorsement of same, manipulation of poor 'uneducated' people etc., proves your point. Ignorance is bliss.

Aha!

So you can not even read?

That is sad!

Maybe you point out where I said, I have faith in socialism?

Where I said I "believe" in corruption...unless you mean, I believe it exists...?

Where I "endorse" corruption or manipulation of poor and "uneducated" people?

If ignorance is my bliss, I at least ignore all parts of the spectrum equally and not, like you, just the ones that fit me best!

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

[Thai at Heart]

Well, I am not looking at it from the perspective of wondering why Thaksin doesn't grab the nettle and solve these things. He is a businessman who understands how wonderful it can be to sit behind the protection of a monopoly only too well.

I wonder why Abhisit doesn't or didn't grab the nettle and reform these types of things? Actually one could say, the most brilliant intervention into any market in Thailand came about post 97, when the Dems signed up to reform the telecoms market and we ended up with basic model phone prices going from 35,000 baht to the prices they are today. Problem is we are paying for that intervention politically today.

So see, it can be done to the benefit of the people and the detriment of business profit. I am sure there an element of "Why only me?", in Thaksin's motivation.

Abhisit is not PM, and when he was for a limited time had other problems a la red shirts. Thaksin's puppet admin has been running for 15 months with absolute majority, yet your focus is still on his predecessor. Why? Because " He is a businessman........" and expected to make a profit, not a politician expected to put the good of his country before personal gain.

Until public service becomes that and not a profit-making opportunity, this country remains severely handicapped, both physically and mentally.

don't disagree with you.

Just postulating a way for abhisit to broaden his appeal so he can win an election instead of resorting to a coup.